Mary's Going to see Diana's Vegas Show?

[RanRan79]

Boogie I kinda like how you replied to my post, so I'm going to respond in kind because it seems a little easier than the way I normally do it when replying piece by piece. My responses in blue.

[[but no offer to do a jump starter appearance on her next project or to call Berry Gordy?)

I would think this an unlikely offer considering that everybody in the mix knew there was no love lost between Flo and Gordy. Diana was in no position to offer anything other than a place to stay if Flo chose to take her up on that offer.

[[but then how many of us make Diana's kind of money and have her kind of resources ?)

Not very many. But is it still standard practice among the wealthy to help out former colleagues they have no affection for? I don't think so. For all the negative talk people like to do about Diana, she is very generous when approached for help. Interestingly, Diana trying to save Flo's home and Diana keeping up with Flo's children, these things are never said to have been accompanied by Florence or anyone acting on Flo's behalf asking Diana to do anything. My spidey senses say there was real affection there. Diana isn't the Ice Queen she's made out to be.

[[saying you're "interested" could mean many degrees of seriousness , saying you're seriously interested and then doing something about it is an entirely different thing.)

Agreed, but I think Diana's quote is that Flo said she was ready to get back into singing. Jack Ashford has said that he and Flo spoke about getting together to do something. And of course there was her last public performance some six or so months before her death. As I've said in a previous thread, it's hard for singers who have been at the top to let it go. I bet Flo did her last performance and remembered more than anything where her place [[other than motherhood) was at.

[[Is that how Flo commanded herself to so many leads on Supremes songs?? )

Yes, that's exactly how she did it.

[[including wife- beating husbands? ).

I found this to be a rather low blow. I'm going to assume your comment is born out of ignorance regarding domestic abuse and who it happens to. Sadly, just about every kind of person you can think of can end up in an abusive relationship. That's a sad fact. I won't participate in any discussion where any physical abuse perpetrated on Flo is used as commentary against her.

[[I'm having a hard time imagining either Diana or Mary seeking her profound motherliness!)

Believe it or not, there was that time in Boston when Diana had her breakdown. According to witnesses it was Florence who took care of Diana, exhibiting that maternal instinct. This shouldn't be a far out thought considering that Flo is said to have been her mother's helper when it came to her siblings. If you know anything about big families [[as I do, coming from a HUGE one myself), a lot of times the girls who were charged with "motherly" duties for siblings are often very maternal. Flo would not be odd in this.

[[I don't see how, Diana was already far beyond being another Supreme , completely independent, as a movie star and a top tier recording solo artist.)

But that's the question, isn't it? Could Flo have reigned in Miss Ross? I think Flo would have had no problem keeping Mary in line, but Diana was DIANA. So would Flo have had it in her in the 1980s to be the piece that allowed the original Supremes to come together for projects and performances now and again? Again my answer is "I think so", but unfortunately we'll never know.

[[interesting. I don't know about this. Are there more details ?)

Flo said she felt she messed up in the past. She said a lot of things she shouldn't have said. She handled the situation poorly, she said. And I agree. I get it, she was in her early 20s. Look at the kinds of things people in their early 20s are doing now. Hell, I shudder at some of my own decisions when I was that young. Shit happens. You learn, you mature, you grow up. But she definitely handled that situation in the worst possible way and she knew it.

[[I don't quite follow , how does Diana not take responsibility, or rather take responsibility for what ? From the get-go , she was the one that wanted out , she wanted to go solo. It all went as she wanted and successfully , so why would she have regrets?)

Ah yes. Gotta love the ever popular mentality "I hurt some folks but I got what I wanted. Screw 'em." For me to go in on Diana's part in the breakup of the original Supremes would be a bit much in this post. But in short, I am of the opinion that Diana did some bullshit not to just get her goal of going solo but because she was a selfish 20 something year old girl. She was no different than any other selfish 20 something. But she definitely had a role in the disintegration of the force that was the original Supremes. And she knows it. At least I believe she knows it. LOL

[[Not sure what going forward means , you mean a reforming of the group ? The miraculous work of Saint Flo for sure !!)

Yeah, reforming the group like the Temptations did for a project. There's no reason why the Supremes with Flo and Diana couldn't have had a reunion album and I don't think it would have taken a saintly act to do it.

[[ oh don't let her ability to play a pre-teen Dorothy fool you! and , if Flo were more mature then because of her motherly status , I think Diana had the same number of kids at that time too.)

Yeah, but Diana was smacking the shit out of Gordy on movie sets because she couldn't have her way. Very mature. Not!

[[in the end though, its a very worthwhile book)

Oh don't get me wrong. Mary's first book is- IMO- the definitive insider look at the Supremes. It's what I source first for the group's history, especially the Primettes days. And it's a helluva read. I'm not knocking Mary's right to tell her view of things either. What I'm suggesting is that there wouldn't have been a book if Mary couldn't capitalize off of Flo's story. Mean Diana doesn't look quite as mean when the narrative doesn't end with one of the people she was mean to dying off. Also I suspect the Motown 25 debacle fueled Mary's desire to write the book to at least a small extent. And it's been my supposition from the jump that had Flo been at the reunion it wouldn't have gone down like that, and thus nothing for Mary and Diana to feud about, resulting in a "tell all".

[[yes at least there's that brief moment of relief in this twisted story)

Personally I don't think the story is so twisted. I think we fans make it twisted by making these three women supernatural. They aren't allowed to be human, flawed. They can't react like the rest of us do. They can't feel like the rest of us do. And they can't have ups and downs with one another like the rest of us do in some of our own relationships. In reality the Supremes story is just every day life for many people. The girls just happened to be household names with famous faces and voices.

Nice reply Ran!

Thanks Boogie. I appreciate our back and forth, whether we agree or not. I don't need anyone to agree with me, as long as they respectfully disagree, and you do that well. [[As I hope I do also.) I wish everyone in this forum would disagree so pleasantly.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Is the consensus that she knows, has provided her assistance, and politely would not answer the question.

Even fans that seem to know don't want to say what is actually wrong with Cindy and why she has disappeared from public view.

Yes. Because there are situations that families do not wish to exploit. 2-3 years ago there was a bit of an outreach to provide assistance [[including here, where it was largely shot down). True fans and industry peeps [[predominantly Diana Ross, it is said) came through.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Diana knows where Cindy is.

... and is professional enough, sophisticated enough, and empathetic enough to know that it's none of our f*!kin' business. Rock on, Ms. Ross.

[Boogiedown]

hi Ran! thanks for your thoughtful and quick response! I don't have time to do so in kind , but would like to continue if you are so inclined. Please give me a couple of days .*

... and is professional enough, sophisticated enough, and empathetic enough to know that it's none of our f*!kin' business. Rock on, Ms. Ross.

LOL !!!!!
I'm just imagining Diana during that audience participation segment in which people are invited to ask her unfielded questions,
when the person innocently asks whether she keeps in touch with any of the Supremes , Diana's face turns a brilliant red , her fiery hair extends out twice its already exaggerated length , and with eyes intensely glaring, she shrieks back , "Do I keep in touch???? --- Do I keep in touch with any of the old Supremes you dare to ask???? --- IT'S NONE OF YOUR F*!CKIN' BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!"

....LOL!!!!!!

then after catching her breath and her appearance returning to normal, she says, "Now , will somebody ask me some real questions, like who makes my terrific gowns, or how does my voice keep sounding better every year?"

Well , better that I say , than the apparent fake news she so professionally and sophisticatedly responded with.
LOL!!!!!

* if this thread doesn't sadly get deleted before then as I'm sensing it might be headed there

[Bluebrock]

Cindy's family wish to keep details of her illness private, and we have to respect that wish. She is receiving more than adequate financial help for which her family are very grateful.

[RanRan79]

hi Ran! thanks for your thoughtful and quick response! I don't have time to do so in kind , but would like to continue if you are so inclined. Please give me a couple of days .*

Respond when you can Boogie. I'm going to enjoy the break from the rain this weekend, but I'll be around when the week starts up again.

LOL !!!!!
I'm just imagining Diana during that audience participation segment in which people are invited to ask her unfielded questions,
when the person innocently asks whether she keeps in touch with any of the Supremes , Diana's face turns a brilliant red , her fiery hair extends out twice its already exaggerated length , and with eyes intensely glaring, she shrieks back , "Do I keep in touch???? --- Do I keep in touch with any of the old Supremes you dare to ask???? --- IT'S NONE OF YOUR F*!CKIN' BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!"

....LOL!!!!!!

then after catching her breath and her appearance returning to normal, she says, "Now , will somebody ask me some real questions, like who makes my terrific gowns, or how does my voice keep sounding better every year?"

Well , better that I say , than the apparent fake news she so professionally and sophisticatedly responded with.
LOL!!!!!

* if this thread doesn't sadly get deleted before then as I'm sensing it might be headed there

Love Diana like I do, but she can at times be disingenuous with her responses about things, especially where the Supremes are concerned. It's one of the things that ticks me off about her. To be so no nonsense I'll never understand why she just doesn't tell it like it is. But about Cindy, I'm going to believe Diana. If she says she doesn't know where Cindy is, she doesn't know. Maybe she knew a couple years ago when Cindy first fell ill. Maybe she knew then and she helped. But it looks like as of 2017 Diana doesn't know where Cindy is, per her own words. I'm not sure why people refuse to believe her. Lol I thought at the very least she was lying about not being able to find Cindy if she's looking for her. As a researcher I know there are tons of ways to find a person, especially if you have money at your disposal. But depending on how ill Cindy is and the nature of it and how she's being cared for, Diana may not be able to track her down if she's been relocated since their last contact. I'm going to take Diana's word over the SD forum gang. She doesn't know where Cindy is and she's smart enough to give an impromptu answer to the question without divulging any of Cindy's personal business, if she does know where she is.

[PeaceNHarmony]

Cindy's family wish to keep details of her illness private, and we have to respect that wish. She is receiving more than adequate financial help for which her family are very grateful.

Great, great news. Thanks for relaying.

[jobeterob]

I don't know any Supremes or hardly anyone on the Forum, never lived in Detroit or any of that - listening as I've listened about Cindy for a long time now, I would believe that she is suffering from alzheimers or dementia and she is a private person who's public persona is from many years ago - and they don't want to be public about that.

It's a tough disease and many people choose to be quiet about it.

And if it's something else, it is something else.

I'm always a little surprised about the great reluctance to say anything, to be frank - but as always, many people seem to say they know and are not to tell.

[Boogiedown]

I don't know any Supremes or hardly anyone on the Forum, never lived in Detroit or any of that - listening as I've listened about Cindy for a long time now, I would believe that she is suffering from alzheimers or dementia and she is a private person who's public persona is from many years ago - and they don't want to be public about that.

It's a tough disease and many people choose to be quiet about it.

And if it's something else, it is something else.

I'm always a little surprised about the great reluctance to say anything, to be frank - but as always, many people seem to say they know and are not to tell.

I'm with you on this . I'm not sure what all the top secret whispering is about. Since when is it a crime to become ill? [[Of which I haven't seen any confirmation of this even being the case.)

ranran79
Love Diana like I do, but she can at times be disingenuous with her responses about things, especially where the Supremes are concerned. It's one of the things that ticks me off about her. To be so no nonsense I'll never understand why she just doesn't tell it like it is. But about Cindy, I'm going to believe Diana. If she says she doesn't know where Cindy is, she doesn't know. Maybe she knew a couple years ago when Cindy first fell ill. Maybe she knew then and she helped. But it looks like as of 2017 Diana doesn't know where Cindy is, per her own words. I'm not sure why people refuse to believe her. Lol I thought at the very least she was lying about not being able to find Cindy if she's looking for her. As a researcher I know there are tons of ways to find a person, especially if you have money at your disposal. But depending on how ill Cindy is and the nature of it and how she's being cared for, Diana may not be able to track her down if she's been relocated since their last contact. I'm going to take Diana's word over the SD forum gang. She doesn't know where Cindy is and she's smart enough to give an impromptu answer to the question without divulging any of Cindy's personal business, if she does know where she is.

And I'm with you. I'm perfectly capable of watching Diana, listen to her in her own words, and then either believe what I'm hearing directly from the horses mouth, or conclude instead that Diana Ross is standing there lying as many here are suggesting .

To quote:

"I tried looking for Cindy Birdsong. I wasn't able to find her. If anybody knows where she is is?? But I was not able to find her."

That doesn't sound like someone who's too concerned or who's trying to word things in a way to paint a pretty picture over a bad situation . It simply sounds like someone giving a real answer about a situation of which they don't care much.

This is immediately followed with,

"And I don't know, I never stay in touch with Mary Wilson. She may be in the audience as far as I know." [[Waves her arm)

So when it comes to Cindy's whereabouts , Diana's asking if anybody there knows where Cindy is, then when it comes to Mary's whereabouts Diana suggests that Mary might even be in that very room , the entire tone of the exchange strikes me as rather flippant .
imo.

[Boogiedown]

Hi Ran ! I'm red , then you're black, then I'm blue! good luck!

Originally Posted by Boogiedown [[but no offer to do a jump starter appearance on her next project or to call Berry Gordy?)

I would think this an unlikely offer considering that everybody in the mix knew there was no love lost between Flo and Gordy. Diana was in no position to offer anything other than a place to stay if Flo chose to take her up on that offer. OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions.

[[but then how many of us make Diana's kind of money and have her kind of resources ?)

Not very many. But is it still standard practice among the wealthy to help out former colleagues they have no affection for? I don't think so. For all the negative talk people like to do about Diana, she is very generous when approached for help. Interestingly, Diana trying to save Flo's home “try” - how did that fail exactly? and Diana keeping up with Flo's children, these things are never said to have been accompanied by Florence or anyone acting on Flo's behalf asking Diana to do anything. My spidey senses say there was real affection there. Diana isn't the Ice Queen she's made out to be.

[[saying you're "interested" could mean many degrees of seriousness , saying you're seriously interested and then doing something about it is an entirely different thing.)

Agreed, but I think Diana's quote is that Flo said she was ready to get back into singing. Jack Ashford has said that he and Flo spoke about getting together to do something. And of course there was her last public performance some six or so months before her death. Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i".
As I've said in a previous thread, it's hard for singers who have been at the top to let it go. I bet Flo did her last performance and remembered more than anything where her place [[other than motherhood) was at. Yes

[[Is that how Flo commanded herself to so many leads on Supremes songs?? )

Yes, that's exactly how she did it. HA

[[including wife- beating husbands? ).

I found this to be a rather low blow. I'm going to assume your comment is born out of ignorance regarding domestic abuse and who it happens to. Sadly, just about every kind of person you can think of can end up in an abusive relationship. That's a sad fact. I won't participate in any discussion where any physical abuse perpetrated on Flo is used as commentary against her. Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not .


[[I'm having a hard time imagining either Diana or Mary seeking her profound motherliness!)

Believe it or not, there was that time in Boston when Diana had her breakdown. According to witnesses it was Florence who took care of Diana, exhibiting that maternal instinct. This shouldn't be a far out thought considering that Flo is said to have been her mother's helper when it came to her siblings. If you know anything about big families [[as I do, coming from a HUGE one myself), a lot of times the girls who were charged with "motherly" duties for siblings are often very maternal. Flo would not be odd in this.Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game.

[[I don't see how, Diana was already far beyond being another Supreme , completely independent, as a movie star and a top tier recording solo artist.)

But that's the question, isn't it? Could Flo have reigned in Miss Ross? NO. I think Flo would have had no problem keeping Mary in line, but Diana was DIANA. So would Flo have had it in her in the 1980s to be the piece that allowed the original Supremes to come together for projects and performances now and again? Again my answer is "I think so", but unfortunately we'll never know. Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo.

[[interesting. I don't know about this. Are there more details ?)

Flo said she felt she messed up in the past. Such as? She said a lot of things she shouldn't have said. Such as? She handled the situation poorly, she said. Meaning? And I agree. I get it, she was in her early 20s. Look at the kinds of things people in their early 20s are doing now. Hell, I shudder at some of my own decisions when I was that young. Shit happens. You learn, you mature, you grow up. But she definitely handled that situation in the worst possible way and she knew it. Well there you have it.

[[I don't quite follow , how does Diana not take responsibility, or rather take responsibility for what ? From the get-go , she was the one that wanted out , she wanted to go solo. It all went as she wanted and successfully , so why would she have regrets?)

Ah yes. Gotta love the ever popular mentality "I hurt some folks but I got what I wanted. Screw 'em." Ha !--- But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing. For me to go in on Diana's part in the breakup of the original Supremes would be a bit much in this post. But in short, I am of the opinion that Diana did some bullshit ? not to just get her goal of going solo but because she was a selfish 20 something year old girl. She was no different than any other selfish 20 something. But she definitely had a role in the disintegration of the force that was the original Supremes. And she knows it. At least I believe she knows it. LOL OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!

[[Not sure what going forward means , you mean a reforming of the group ? The miraculous work of Saint Flo for sure !!)

Yeah, reforming the group like the Temptations did for a project. There's no reason why the Supremes with Flo and Diana couldn't have had a reunion album and I don't think it would have taken a saintly act to do it. Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was.

[[ oh don't let her ability to play a pre-teen Dorothy fool you! and , if Flo were more mature then because of her motherly status , I think Diana had the same number of kids at that time too.)

Yeah, but Diana was smacking the shit out of Gordy on movie sets because she couldn't have her way. Very mature. Not! Ha! True!
And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing.

[[in the end though, its a very worthwhile book)

Oh don't get me wrong. Mary's first book is- IMO- the definitive insider look at the Supremes. It's what I source first for the group's history, especially the Primettes days. And it's a helluva read. I'm not knocking Mary's right to tell her view of things either. What I'm suggesting is that there wouldn't have been a book if Mary couldn't capitalize off of Flo's story. Mean Diana doesn't look quite as mean when the narrative doesn't end with one of the people she was mean to dying off. Also I suspect the Motown 25 debacle fueled Mary's desire to write the book to at least a small extent. And it's been my supposition from the jump that had Flo been at the reunion it wouldn't have gone down like that, and thus nothing for Mary and Diana to feud about, resulting in a "tell all".

[[yes at least there's that brief moment of relief in this twisted story)

Personally I don't think the story is so twisted. I think we fans make it twisted by making these three women supernatural. They aren't allowed to be human, flawed. They can't react like the rest of us do. They can't feel like the rest of us do. And they can't have ups and downs with one another like the rest of us do in some of our own relationships. Of course they can !! That’s what makes the twists!! In reality the Supremes story is just every day life for many people. oh , poo!The girls just happened to be household names with famous faces and voices. And therein's the rub!

Originally Posted by Boogiedown Nice reply Ran! Thanks Boogie. I appreciate our back and forth, whether we agree or not. I don't need anyone to agree with me, me neither! as long as they respectfully disagree, and you do that well. Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation! [[As I hope I do also.) so far so good! I wish everyone in this forum would disagree so pleasantly.

[TomatoTom123]

RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?

[imakicola]

You know, I do love Mary. I found what she did with her book in poor taste frankly, but she has every right to publish her side of things...and make money doing so. And I’m glad we have it to read! I do find it interesting though that Mary threads dominate this forum so much haha

[blackguy69]

You know, I do love Mary. I found what she did with her book in poor taste frankly, but she has every right to publish her side of things...and make money doing so. And I’m glad we have it to read! I do find it interesting though that Mary threads dominate this forum so much haha

Supremes/Diana/Mary threads are the dominant on this site lol

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes were Motown's 'Beatles', so they should dominate this site!

[jobeterob]

The Supremes were Motown's 'Beatles', so they should dominate this site!

Exactly and even more than just Motown's

And that's when you get controversy and favorites and why it matters if an Andante filled in for a line or two

And why people talk about a 10 second comment made 53 years ago

[RanRan79]

Alright Boogie, you're in black, I'm in blue.

"OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions."

Could be. That part of the conversation isn't known [[outside of the parties involved). I just can't imagine Diana being tight with any of the movers and shakers in the business outside of Motown at that point, so I'd be surprised that this was something she could offer. But it's definitely possible.

“try” - how did that fail exactly?"

Mystery surrounds this. We covered it in a recent thread but the thread was deleted. The story goes that Diana heard about Flo's inability to pay the mortgage, found out how much was owed, and wrote a check to cover it. Diana wanted to go through Flo to take care of this but somehow Tommy got in the way and wanted Diana to deal with him, which of course she refused to do. As a result, so the story goes, Diana was unable to save Flo's home. According to Flo's sister Maxine, Diana made attempts to contact Florence but Flo refused to take Diana's calls. According to Flo's words about Diana not helping her, it appears that she was unaware of Diana offering assistance. I have questions about some of this, particularly the role Tommy is said to have played, which makes no sense. It's a mystery.

"Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i"."

And that might be accurate if Florence was 18 with no obligations. How easy do you think it is to jumpstart a singing career with three small children? Nothing about her suggests she was the type of mother who would have thrown caution to the wind and went out chasing record deals and club appearances without making sure she had a firm foundation for her children. Not to mention she was still trying to recover from the down years [[lack of singing, weight gain, psychology) and deal with the lawsuit settlement which finally allowed her to get off assistance and make a new home for her children. I think she did enough to perform and then reconnect with former Motown buddies Diana Ross and Jack Ashford. Had she not died a few months later, who knows what she would have gone on to do. But a singing career doesn't happen overnight, not even when making a comeback.

"Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not ."

No one can be all things to all people all the time. Maybe Tommy was her Kryptonite? Everyone has one.

"Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game."

Agreed, but if you know "motherliness" the way I know it, you don't have to seek it out to get it. Florence doesn't strike me as the type of person who waits to be asked her thoughts. Lol

"Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo."

Good point, but at some point that's exactly what she did, which is how we got the RTL debacle.

"But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing."

I posted my thoughts in a thread about where blame lay in the Supremes breakup sometime ago. I don't think I could reproduce my words any better now than I did then. So I'm going to search for that thread and if found [[I don't think it was one of the ones deleted) I'll post the link in this thread for your reading pleasure and to get your thoughts. Stay tuned.

"OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!"

See my previous reply.

"Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was. "

True, but I wouldn't rule out Diana being "talked" into it. [[As much as Ross could be talked into anything. Lol)

"And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing. "

Right, because once one matures, every decision that is made is always good and mature? If that's been your experience, how blessed you are. I consider myself mature at 30something, but admittedly I make poor decisions every now and again, especially when I allow my feelings to overrule my good sense.

"Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation!"

But that's communication, and it's also where maturity comes into play. We write something and it's interpreted in a different way. It's good when the parties can go back and forth in understanding, as opposed to going back and forth in confusion and insults and negativity. This forum would run much more smoothly if people communicated more effectively.

[RanRan79]

RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?

Ha!!!!!!!!!

[RanRan79]

The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.

[RanRan79]

Boogie, I found the thread. Here's the portion where I give you some idea about my thoughts on what went wrong with this group. It was in reply to something someone else had said, so keep that in mind if there are parts that don't quite make sense on their own. The bold faced red parts is my general way of answering your question of- and I'm paraphrasing- "what part did Diana play in the breakup of the group".

"The world is a rough place. And don't forget, all of these people were so very young. I'll admit that I can be a bit hard on Berry Gordy because he was the head man in charge and he was- relatively speaking- considerably older than the Supremes, so in my mind I often feel like he should have known better than say certain things, do certain things, react in certain ways, etc. But in actuality Gordy was a very young man in his 30s when all of this drama was taking place. None of the Supremes were really equipped to deal with the reality that their fame became, and quite often that's attributed to their impoverished background and parents who were, more or less, not very worldly. But Gordy was in a similar boat in the sense that he was in uncharted territory for a Black man at that time. The stress on the girls was one thing, but I've never really contemplated what the stress may have been like for Berry. Now this is no excuse for what I do believe were his chauvinistic mind games that he often played with the three girls, Florence in particular. But keeping his age in mind might also explain how immature some of his antics were [["I agree with Diane, you're fat Flo"...wtf kind of school yard crap is that?).

Being rational definitely wasn't in the picture. Rational would have been Gordy figuring out how to make Diana "the greatest star" without alienating Flo and Mary or attempting to diminish their roles in the group. Rational would have been Florence understanding that she had a job to do and either she do what is asked or she find something else to do with her life. So often today major stars are ridiculed for not having real world values, but I find it a little interesting that Florence is given a pass that just about everyone on this forum [[who has a job) would be fired for if we went on our jobs with Flo's mentality.

Compassion most certainly wasn't involved. Compassion would have been Diana taking a moment to think about someone other than herself. Her mind was hellbent on being DIANA ROSS and doing whatever to get there that she didn't take a moment to wonder- until well after she left the group- what her special treatment was doing to her friends. She knew people were being required to address her as Miss, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was being given her own dressing room, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was going to interviews early so she could have solo time while Flo and Mary were arriving late. Compassion would have been Diana advocating for Flo and Mary. Instead she was often indifferent or at times, if Flo's story about the charity commercial filming is accurate, she actively worked against them."

[imakicola]

The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.

It actually wasn’t a criticism, nor a complaint. Try again!

[PeaceNHarmony]

Exactly and even more than just Motown's

And that's when you get controversy and favorites and why it matters if an Andante filled in for a line or two

And why people talk about a 10 second comment made 53 years ago

... and why nearly 60 years later a scant handful of 'fans' are still trying to make a star out of a random background singer who never had a hit ...

[RanRan79]

It actually wasn’t a criticism, nor a complaint. Try again!

Clearly I wasn't referring to you, hence the part of my post- which you reproduced- where I say "I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one)". I took your original comment as an observation, not criticism or a complaint. I must question if your response to me is even a legit gripe or if your intention was to stir something up, in the wake of the comments about civility. If the latter, you try again. Have a good morning.

[blackguy69]

Clearly I wasn't referring to you, hence the part of my post- which you reproduced- where I say "I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one)". I took your original comment as an observation, not criticism or a complaint. I must question if your response to me is even a legit gripe or if your intention was to stir something up, in the wake of the comments about civility. If the latter, you try again. Have a good morning.

I don't think he was starting something, but the comment above your comment is trying to start something

[thanxal]

The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.

I'll admit I've complained about it. And I'll continue to do so. For me it is because they almost always end up in nastiness and pettiness [[for instance, see below). It gets old and tiresome, as if there is little else to Motown than petty squabbles between Supremes fans.

[RanRan79]

but the comment above your comment is trying to start something

No surprises there. LOL

[RanRan79]

I'll admit I've complained about it. And I'll continue to do so. For me it is because they almost always end up in nastiness and pettiness [[for instance, see below). It gets old and tiresome, as if there is little else to Motown than petty squabbles between Supremes fans.

I get complaining about the arguments. You and I have sung in that choir together for quite some time now [[and we don't fight over who gets to take the lead!). But some of the complaints I've seen are about Supremes/Diana/Mary threads in general, and that makes no sense to me, as in the example I gave previously about Elvis. But it is sad that most threads about the group devolve into arguments about various Supremes, and usually it's the handful of same screennames that jump right into it.

[jobeterob]

You guys have had a great discussion.

I guess it has been determined that Mary did not attend the show incognito or otherwise? Nobody was sitting next to her?

[RanRan79]

You guys have had a great discussion.

I guess it has been determined that Mary did not attend the show incognito or otherwise? Nobody was sitting next to her?

Barring a future announcement from Mary or Diana, Rob it appears Mary never made it. The best news is Diana's engagement was successful and wasn't mired in controversy. Well aside from her comments about Cindy. Miss Ross is still knocking them dead.

[Boogiedown]

RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?

'

Ha !!!! thanks for that needed laugh Tom Tom ! By the way you [[or anyone else ) is welcomed to jump in if you have additional thoughts . Open forum! Ran Ran holds his own well , but maybe together we can get this guy to flinch!!

RanRan79

Barring a future announcement from Mary or Diana, Rob it appears Mary never made it. The best news is Diana's engagement was successful and wasn't mired in controversy. Well aside from her comments about Cindy. Miss Ross is still knocking them dead.

and I know you're not alluding to that "in the cellar" theory !! lol!!

[RanRan79]

'

Ha !!!! thanks for that needed laugh Tom Tom ! By the way you [[or anyone else ) is welcomed to jump in if you have additional thoughts . Open forum! Ran Ran holds his own well , but maybe together we can get this guy to flinch!!

Good luck with that!!

and I know you're not alluding to that "in the cellar" theory !! lol!!

LMAO...I even hate that I mentioned that bullshit. It was ridiculous when it entered whatever thread someone brought it up in and it will forever be ridiculous. The things people come up with around here because they hate Diana Ross and/or Mary Wilson. It's pathetic.

[Boogiedown]

Today's running theme "mature/maturity":

Alright Boogie, you're in black, I'm in blue. And now I'm red !!

"OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions."

Could be. That part of the conversation isn't known [[outside of the parties involved). I just can't imagine Diana being tight with any of the movers and shakers in the business outside of Motown at that point, so I'd be surprised that this was something she could offer. But it's definitely possible.
I'm now with you on this . It appears that Diana was pretty much spoon fed her career , so I don't imagine her working the Hollywood circuit that much . No need to. Her work was all done in house, and she couldn't very well show Flo around the LA Motown Headquarters. Hey maybe she at least promised to take her to IN N OUT
“try” - how did that fail exactly?"

Mystery surrounds this. We covered it in a recent thread but the thread was deleted. The story goes that Diana heard about Flo's inability to pay the mortgage, found out how much was owed, and wrote a check to cover it. Diana wanted to go through Flo to take care of this but somehow Tommy got in the way and wanted Diana to deal with him, which of course she refused to do. Why "of course"? Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work? As a result, so the story goes, Diana was unable to save Flo's home. According to Flo's sister Maxine, Diana made attempts to contact Florence but Flo refused to take Diana's calls. Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ?? According to Flo's words about Diana not helping her, it appears that she was unaware of Diana offering assistance. _??? I have questions about some of this, particularly the role Tommy is said to have played, which makes no sense. It's a mystery. I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy .

"Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i"."

And that might be accurate if Florence was 18 with no obligations. How easy do you think it is to jumpstart a singing career with three small children? Well where's the help of that newly returned husband of hers? Nothing about her suggests she was the type of mother who would have thrown caution to the wind and went out chasing record deals and club appearances without making sure she had a firm foundation for her children. well , again, where's their newly returned father that Flo [[so maturely) took back. Not to mention she was still trying to recover from the down years [[lack of singing, weight gain, psychology) and deal with the lawsuit settlement which finally allowed her to get off assistance and make a new home for her children. and Mr Kryptonite . I think she did enough to perform wish we could view that !!! and then reconnect with former Motown buddies Diana Ross and Jack Ashford. Had she not died a few months later, who knows what she would have gone on to do. But a singing career doesn't happen overnight, not even when making a comeback. Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)

"Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not ."

No one can be all things to all people all the time. Maybe Tommy was her Kryptonite? Everyone has one.

"Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game."

Agreed, but if you know "motherliness" the way I know it, you don't have to seek it out to get it. Florence doesn't strike me as the type of person who waits to be asked her thoughts. Lol lol. But wouldn't the other two Supremes annoyedly tell her to buzz off. A bossy Flo doesn't strike me as a unifying component at this later juncture.

"Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo."

Good point, but at some point that's exactly what she did, which is how we got the RTL debacle. A whole 'nother discussion eh !?

"But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing."

I posted my thoughts in a thread about where blame lay in the Supremes breakup sometime ago. I don't think I could reproduce my words any better now than I did then. So I'm going to search for that thread and if found [[I don't think it was one of the ones deleted) I'll post the link in this thread for your reading pleasure and to get your thoughts. Stay tuned. I will respond there then.

"OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!"

See my previous reply.

"Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was. "

True, but I wouldn't rule out Diana being "talked" into it. [[As much as Ross could be talked into anything. Lol) there's the rub!

"And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing. "

Right, because once one matures, every decision that is made is always good and mature? If that's been your experience, how blessed you are. I consider myself mature at 30something, but admittedly I make poor decisions every now and again, especially when I allow my feelings to overrule my good sense. But that is the very definition of immature.

And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here .

"Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation!"

But that's communication, and it's also where maturity word now used eighteen times here comes into play. We write something and it's interpreted in a different way. Yep! It's good when the parties can go back and forth in understanding, as opposed to going back and forth in confusion and insults and negativity. This forum would run much more smoothly if people communicated more effectively.

on to next post

[Boogiedown]

thanks for digging this up Ran ! . Just so you know, I'm not so much challenging you as I am tapping into you for information. Thanks for sharing, i'm learning!

Boogie, I found the thread. Here's the portion where I give you some idea about my thoughts on what went wrong with this group. It was in reply to something someone else had said, so keep that in mind if there are parts that don't quite make sense on their own. The bold faced red parts is my general way of answering your question of- and I'm paraphrasing- "what part did Diana play in the breakup of the group".

"The world is a rough place. And don't forget, all of these people were so very young. I'll admit that I can be a bit hard on Berry Gordy because he was the head man in charge and he was- relatively speaking- considerably older than the Supremes, so in my mind I often feel like he should have known better than say certain things, do certain things, react in certain ways, etc. But in actuality Gordy was a very young man in his 30s when all of this drama was taking place. None of the Supremes were really equipped to deal with the reality that their fame became, and quite often that's attributed to their impoverished background and parents who were, more or less, not very worldly. But Gordy was in a similar boat in the sense that he was in uncharted territory for a Black man at that time. The stress on the girls was one thing, but I've never really contemplated what the stress may have been like for Berry. Now this is no excuse for what I do believe were his chauvinistic mind games that he often played with the three girls, Florence in particular. But keeping his age in mind might also explain how immature some of his antics were [["I agree with Diane, you're fat Flo"...wtf kind of school yard crap is that?). But image was everything!! Perhaps that was his idea of a rude awakening.

Being rational definitely wasn't in the picture. Rational would have been Gordy figuring out how to make Diana "the greatest star" without alienating Flo and Mary or attempting to diminish their roles in the group. Rational would have been Florence understanding that she had a job to do and either she do what is asked or she find something else to do with her life. So often today major stars are ridiculed for not having real world values, "but I find it a little interesting that Florence is given a pass that just about everyone on this forum [[who has a job) would be fired for if we went on our jobs with Flo's mentality.'" sorry don't follow ?

Compassion most certainly wasn't involved. Compassion would have been Diana taking a moment to think about someone other than herself. Her mind was hellbent on being DIANA ROSS and doing whatever to get there that she didn't take a moment to wonder- until well after she left the group- what her special treatment was doing to her friends. She knew people were being required to address her as Miss, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was being given her own dressing room, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was going to interviews early so she could have solo time while Flo and Mary were arriving late. Compassion would have been Diana advocating for Flo and Mary. Instead she was often indifferent or at times, if Flo's story about the charity commercial filming is accurate, I don't know this story , also where do you get Flo's account from?? she actively worked against them."

Ok so therein are examples of the regrets you think Diana could own up to concerning how things went down during the Supremes restructuring . I see , thanks again for sharing that Ran .

[RanRan79]

"Why "of course"?"

By most- if not all- accounts, everyone in the know could see that Tommy couldn't be trusted. So I would think it smart on Diana's part that if Tommy was attempting to act as a go between, she would wisely avoid that situation.

"Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work?"

I've been under the impression that Flo losing the house happened after she filed for divorce from Tommy, so no, I don't believe they were together during this juncture. Cue back to the part in a previous post where I say that Tommy trying to intercept Diana's check doesn't make sense. That's one of the reasons why. As for Tommy and working, I think he always kept a job. I don't recall anything about him being out of work, except maybe a period of time after he was no longer Flo's manager.

"Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ??"

Another part of the story that doesn't make sense. And this will tie into the part where you questioned my remark about Florence being unaware of Diana offering assistance. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that if Diana were ever down on her luck and needed anything that Flo would do whatever she could. But Flo supposed that Diana didn't feel the same way, implying that she believed Diana knew she was having difficulties but didn't try to help. I'm taking Flo's words on this. If Diana did attempt to offer help, Florence never knew about it. This calls into question Maxine writing in her book that Flo refused to answer Diana's calls. Other than Maxine flat out lying, the only other explanation for her version of events is the mixing up of time periods. Maxine's story jumps all over the place in her book, and there are times when it's apparent that the timeline she created was a bit off. So I'm thinking any story where Diana is calling and Flo is refusing to take the call may have happened while Flo was still a Supreme and shit had gotten crazy. Although there is one other scenario that I just thought about: Flo claimed that prior to her and Diana's last conversation in 1975, the last time the two of them spoke was in 1971. 1971 was also when Flo sued Motown, naming her former singing partners in the suit, including her claim that Diana maliciously ousted her from the group. Could be that Diana called Flo about the suit and for awhile she dodged her calls before finally speaking. Or maybe they spoke on the phone and Flo didn't like what Diana had to say and when Diana kept trying, Flo refused the calls. At this point Maxine is dead, Flo is dead, so the only other person who could possibly shed factual light here is Diana. Boogie you may be right about the story being twisted.

"I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy."

I don't believe Diana ever does anything halfhearted, not when it comes to helping people. It's the one part of her life I wish people talked about more.

"Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)"

It wasn't in the cards because the woman died several months later. I'm curious to know what you think she should have been doing in order to label her intention to get back into singing as "in the cards"? I would never advise anyone to jump right into anything of that significance. And having a spouse who clearly was unreliable would be the last reason for Florence to leave those children. LOL

"But wouldn't the other two Supremes annoyedly tell her to buzz off. A bossy Flo doesn't strike me as a unifying component at this later juncture."

Real maturity isn't bossy. It's telling it like it is and hoping the folks listening buy into it. You can lead a horse to water...

"But that is the very definition of immature."

No it isn't. And bad decisions does not negate a person's maturity. Florence was an abused woman in the 1970s. Where abused women go, she was the rule, not the exception. Domestic abuse is much more widely understood today and yet 10 million women annually are victims of it. Returning to an abusive spouse doesn't denote a period of mature growth no more than Diana's alcoholism and drunk driving charge at 50 something suddenly made her an immature woman. Now if your position is that once mature always mature decisions, then we'll have to agree to disagree as I do not believe that's even possible.

"And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here ."

For me Tommy can be easily ignored. If anything Tommy's presence would've been even more motivation to try again at a singing career since he so obviously loved the potential meal ticket. Bottom line for me is that at age 32 Flo was figuring things out. She received mental help [[something most people, let alone Black women, in the 70s didn't dare think about doing), she was reconciling old relationships, she was singing again, she was back in the money. But it was that performance that I think nailed it. She knew where her place was and I suspect that if death hadn't found her so early, we would have heard a bit more from the great Florence Ballard.

[RanRan79]

thanks for digging this up Ran ! . Just so you know, I'm not so much challenging you as I am tapping into you for information. Thanks for sharing, i'm learning!

Oh I didn't take anything as a challenge to me, although some of your thoughts are challenging for me to figure out how you come to your conclusions. If I'm helping you learn anything, that's great! Your questions and comments also allow me to ponder my opinions and even change them at points. Case in point: me saying Diana wasn't mature in the mid 70s. I'm going to have to revise that. She was indeed a mother and very hands on. Clearly she wasn't the selfish 20 something she had once been. Even attempting to help Flo, that's definitely maturity at work, considering that the two of them haven't always had the best relationship. Sure, she smacked the shit out of Gordy, but as I said in my previous post, it's my opinion that a person can make immature decisions every now and again and still be a mature person.

But image was everything!! Perhaps that was his idea of a rude awakening.

Except we know that nobody saw Florence as fat. Mary has consistently said that Flo gained weight at a point in the group, yet there is no photographic evidence or video footage that supports the idea that Flo was ever fat. Both Diana and Mary wished they were built like Florence Ballard. That was a sexy ass woman. Gordy was great at mind games and he knew how to get to each girl. Gordy zeroed in on Mary's lack of confidence in her vocals to keep her in line. He knew he couldn't get anywhere with that with Flo. That girl knew above all else that she could sing and you weren't going to convince her otherwise. But trying to make her think that visually she had a problem...well it's the one thing we men know is a sure fire way to hit the confidence of a woman: with her looks. Add in the fact that Flo's mother was morbidly obese and it's possible Gordy was also attempting to play on any fears she had of turning into her mother, as some girls do. That's just mean. Had Gordy been a different kind of man I think he would have known how to run the ship more smoothly and still get the end results he worked toward: making Diana Ross a solo sensation. And he could have done that and kept Flo and Mary happy at the same time.

sorry don't follow ?

My point was that Flo is lauded around here for all the times she let Gordy and Diana have it. She's given a pass for missing recording sessions, rehearsals, even a performance. She was just exercising her right to free speech and to respond to suddenly not be happy in the Supremes. But in what other job is this a good idea? What job can any of us cuss our boss out and expect to come in the next day? What job can we skip work we don't want to do and expect to continue employment? It doesn't happen. And while I empathize with and understand Flo's feelings, the way she went about expressing her displeasure ultimately got her booted out of the group she helped make famous. Was Gordy a dick about it? You bet. But I suspect that if Flo had approached her problems in the group with a level head and a calm demeanor, she may never have been fired at all. Of course that would have been the mature [[there's that word again!) thing to do, and in her early 20s it's no surprise she didn't take that route.

I don't know this story , also where do you get Flo's account from??

Flo told one of the biographers [[can't remember if it was J.Randy T or Benjaminson) about the Supremes filming a commercial in 1967 in the Brewster Projects. According to Flo each girl had speaking lines when they arrived. Halfway through filming Diana suddenly stopped and told Gordy that she wanted to do all the lines herself. Even Gordy wasn't pleased with Diana's timing but ultimately agreed with her, to which Flo went off and she and Diana exchanged words, all the while everybody in the projects were watching. When the commercial aired Diana did all the talking. I'm surprised Flo and Mary didn't jump her ass right then and there. How much more of the spotlight did the girl need? LOL

Ok so therein are examples of the regrets you think Diana could own up to concerning how things went down during the Supremes restructuring . I see , thanks again for sharing that Ran .

Like I said before, Diana was a selfish 20 something year old girl. Flo was an impetuous 20 something year old girl. And truth be told you could switch either girl for selfish and impetuous. They were acting like normal girls, it's just that there was so much at stake for them than the average young lady their age. Diana has hinted at times of understanding Flo and Mary's positions when Diana was given more attention, but I always want her to just be real.

Interviewer: Mary Wilson wrote a book in which she accused you of being a spotlight hog. Florence Ballard's various anecdotes about you as a singing partner have also been well documented, as have several anecdotes, supposedly, regarding your antics as a member of the Supremes by other authors. Are these things true? Were you really that bad?

Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.

Yes, that's what I would like to see my Ross finally admit.

[blackguy69]

Oh I didn't take anything as a challenge to me, although some of your thoughts are challenging for me to figure out how you come to your conclusions. If I'm helping you learn anything, that's great! Your questions and comments also allow me to ponder my opinions and even change them at points. Case in point: me saying Diana wasn't mature in the mid 70s. I'm going to have to revise that. She was indeed a mother and very hands on. Clearly she wasn't the selfish 20 something she had once been. Even attempting to help Flo, that's definitely maturity at work, considering that the two of them haven't always had the best relationship. Sure, she smacked the shit out of Gordy, but as I said in my previous post, it's my opinion that a person can make immature decisions every now and again and still be a mature person.



Except we know that nobody saw Florence as fat. Mary has consistently said that Flo gained weight at a point in the group, yet there is no photographic evidence or video footage that supports the idea that Flo was ever fat. Both Diana and Mary wished they were built like Florence Ballard. That was a sexy ass woman. Gordy was great at mind games and he knew how to get to each girl. Gordy zeroed in on Mary's lack of confidence in her vocals to keep her in line. He knew he couldn't get anywhere with that with Flo. That girl knew above all else that she could sing and you weren't going to convince her otherwise. But trying to make her think that visually she had a problem...well it's the one thing we men know is a sure fire way to hit the confidence of a woman: with her looks. Add in the fact that Flo's mother was morbidly obese and it's possible Gordy was also attempting to play on any fears she had of turning into her mother, as some girls do. That's just mean. Had Gordy been a different kind of man I think he would have known how to run the ship more smoothly and still get the end results he worked toward: making Diana Ross a solo sensation. And he could have done that and kept Flo and Mary happy at the same time.



My point was that Flo is lauded around here for all the times she let Gordy and Diana have it. She's given a pass for missing recording sessions, rehearsals, even a performance. She was just exercising her right to free speech and to respond to suddenly not be happy in the Supremes. But in what other job is this a good idea? What job can any of us cuss our boss out and expect to come in the next day? What job can we skip work we don't want to do and expect to continue employment? It doesn't happen. And while I empathize with and understand Flo's feelings, the way she went about expressing her displeasure ultimately got her booted out of the group she helped make famous. Was Gordy a dick about it? You bet. But I suspect that if Flo had approached her problems in the group with a level head and a calm demeanor, she may never have been fired at all. Of course that would have been the mature [[there's that word again!) thing to do, and in her early 20s it's no surprise she didn't take that route.



Flo told one of the biographers [[can't remember if it was J.Randy T or Benjaminson) about the Supremes filming a commercial in 1967 in the Brewster Projects. According to Flo each girl had speaking lines when they arrived. Halfway through filming Diana suddenly stopped and told Gordy that she wanted to do all the lines herself. Even Gordy wasn't pleased with Diana's timing but ultimately agreed with her, to which Flo went off and she and Diana exchanged words, all the while everybody in the projects were watching. When the commercial aired Diana did all the talking. I'm surprised Flo and Mary didn't jump her ass right then and there. How much more of the spotlight did the girl need? LOL



Like I said before, Diana was a selfish 20 something year old girl. Flo was an impetuous 20 something year old girl. And truth be told you could switch either girl for selfish and impetuous. They were acting like normal girls, it's just that there was so much at stake for them than the average young lady their age. Diana has hinted at times of understanding Flo and Mary's positions when Diana was given more attention, but I always want her to just be real.

Interviewer: Mary Wilson wrote a book in which she accused you of being a spotlight hog. Florence Ballard's various anecdotes about you as a singing partner have also been well documented, as have several anecdotes, supposedly, regarding your antics as a member of the Supremes by other authors. Are these things true? Were you really that bad?

Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.

Yes, that's what I would like to see my Ross finally admit.

I would never say Flo was fat but she did gain weight while there. Mary had commented that these gowns were so snuggly that a pound gained spelled disaster. Flo did go from an 8 in 1965 to a 12 two years later. And of course it didn't help that Diana was so thin so she looked huge in comparison. To answer your question Ran about no photo evidence, actually there was if you caught it. When Flo was brought back in for the last few months before she was fired, you noticed that the bulk of what they wore was the looser chiffon dresses as opposed to the tighter fitting ones.

[TomatoTom123]

Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.

I thought that was an actual quote from Diana then until she mentioned choking on dicks, LOL

[jobeterob]

A lot of them probably choked on one.

[Jimi LaLumia]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..

[blackguy69]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..

Your statement would be correct if the supremes were set up like the vandellas. But since it wasn't, the group was built on their personalities not just a lead and backups.

[TomatoTom123]

A lot of them probably choked on one.

LOLol

Come to think of it "choke on a thousand dicks" sounds like a punishment from the Old Testament, LOL

[Jimi LaLumia]

the group was built on brilliant H/D/H compositions tailored to the sound and delivery of Diana Ross; that's how 12 Number Ones came along..

[vgalindo]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..

Thank you. I couldn't have said it any better.

[PeaceNHarmony]

OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..

Doncha wish you could get into these people's insights and learn why they really think, 60 years after the fact, that The Supremes would have gone anywhere without Diana Ross as the lead? [[As well as the other groups vs. leads you well mention).

[RanRan79]

I would never say Flo was fat but she did gain weight while there. Mary had commented that these gowns were so snuggly that a pound gained spelled disaster. Flo did go from an 8 in 1965 to a 12 two years later. And of course it didn't help that Diana was so thin so she looked huge in comparison. To answer your question Ran about no photo evidence, actually there was if you caught it. When Flo was brought back in for the last few months before she was fired, you noticed that the bulk of what they wore was the looser chiffon dresses as opposed to the tighter fitting ones.

Oh yeah, she gained some weight over time [[as did Mary) but she was never fat. Remember Gordy's taunts and Mary's claims occur as early as 1966. Look at Flo on Sullivan when they do "You Can't Hurry Love" and the Symphony medley, or when they debut "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on whatever show they were on in 1967. That is not a fat woman and no one watching them was thinking "The Supremes look great, but that big one on the end...". Lol Flo's so called weight issue wasn't real. It was used as a weapon in war.

[RanRan79]

I thought that was an actual quote from Diana then until she mentioned choking on dicks, LOL

LMAO Sorry about that Tom. But I sure wish Diana would let it all out like that just one time. I want so bad for her to tell the haters to kiss her entire ass when they bring up 50 year old shit.

[RanRan79]

A lot of them probably choked on one.

You got that right!!!

[RanRan79]

Your statement would be correct if the supremes were set up like the vandellas. But since it wasn't, the group was built on their personalities not just a lead and backups.

Don't bother BG. You see how of all the things I wrote in my fake Diana interview the one thing they zeroed in on was my reference to Diana Ross being one third of the Supremes. That's how much hate exists for Flo and Mary. If you aren't saying anything that maligns them in someway, it's a problem for some. And apparently some folks don't know what "one-third" is.

Noun. 1. one-third - one of three equal parts of a divisible whole

Before DRATS no one even knew Diana Ross' name who didn't also know Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. That was the whole point of changing the name to Diana Ross and the Supremes. Gordy wanted to elevate her above Flo [[and then Cindy) and Mary in the public's mind, because until then, while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears, it was the look, story and personalities of all three that captured the public's heart. If Diana were more than one-third she could've went solo in 1966. If Diana were more than one-third even after the name change, and the whole thing had been all about her, when she left the group, the Supremes never would have had continued success while Diana's first show couldn't sale out with a 20 dollar giveaway gimmick.

But that's the part they chose to focus on. Not Diana telling the haters to go to hell, but the part where I say she was one-third of the group, which is a fact, not an opinion. It's math. I guess these folks are so smart they're rewriting mathematics. What is this, that new NEW math?

"I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality."

That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Supremes, told in fake voice by one-third of the Supremes, Diana Ross. And I think from here on out that's how I will refer to her: Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes. Ya know, cuz I'm feeling petty.

[blackguy69]

Oh yeah, she gained some weight over time [[as did Mary) but she was never fat. Remember Gordy's taunts and Mary's claims occur as early as 1966. Look at Flo on Sullivan when they do "You Can't Hurry Love" and the Symphony medley, or when they debut "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on whatever show they were on in 1967. That is not a fat woman and no one watching them was thinking "The Supremes look great, but that big one on the end...". Lol Flo's so called weight issue wasn't real. It was used as a weapon in war.

But unlike Flo Mary lost weight the difference between 1966 and 1967!is very noticeable

[thanxal]

Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes.

"Honey, if that ain't enough thats too bad".

[RanRan79]

But unlike Flo Mary lost weight the difference between 1966 and 1967!is very noticeable

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one BG.