Why is Motown so big in the UK?

[Tailspinner]

Hi sotosound,

The thread is about why Motown became popular in the UK, and I think that if you accept that a particular kind of music is the product of a particular type of social/political/cultural environment, you have to ask what it was about that environment which produced a) Motown in the States with its distinctive image, sound and sentiments, and b) what it was in Britain which produced a widespread enthusiasm and commercial demand for that same image, sound and sentiment.

If you do that, I think you’re left with the answer that there were many similarities between the social and economic environments of blacks in American cities, and those of white British manual workers.

This was so particularly in the industrial strongholds of the north, who in the late 60s and early 70s were enjoying some of their most secure and prosperous years, thanks to low unemployment, relatively high wages, strong unions, a generous welfare state, a booming consumer society and of course gender equality. Let's not forget Motown was pretty much as popular with the girls as boys, and probably the first musical trend to be so.

As you said, peak demand for Motown in the UK was between about 69-72, although it remained strong for the old records in clubs/pubs/jukeboxes nationwide until much, much later. These sources reflected [[rather than shaped) public taste, as did the radio stations which continued to play the hits throughout – BBC Radio 1 from 1968 and commercial FM from 1973.

Papers like NME, MM and Sounds were indeed more specialised, as you say, serving a rock-oriented subculture. But, I’d argue that was mainly a 6^thform/college-kid sub-culture, and as such the papers’ core appeal lay with the middle class, and those with middle class aspirations.

I also agree that if you ask people why they liked Motown, they just say they ‘liked what they liked’, as they did in the Yorkshire town where I grew up. But, asking individuals isn’t very useful because most of us don’t have that level of awareness. They don’t say ‘I like it because I’m working class and my social environment is just like the American blacks’, who’ve never had it so good, just like me’.

Point is, that we’re often unaware of how our tastes, particularly with regard to music, fashion, etc. are shaped by our social environments.

It was distinctive social and political conditions which gave birth to blues, reggae and Motown, etc. And no doubt their practitioners and fans said pretty much the same thing, i.e. that they just ‘liked what they liked’.

Yes sure, as with any trend there are exceptions, yourself included. No trend ever has 100% conformity. So, despite my hometown being a Motown hotbed, I also had mates who listened to other stuff, particularly chart stuff, whether Status Quo or some crappy novelty record. I also had mates who didn’t label themselves in class terms, any more than I labelled myself, either then or now for that matter. Nobody did!

Yet, there were still aspects of their attitudes, values, tastes and preferences etc. which were what we’d call ‘working class’. I shared some of them too, but they were mixed with what we’d now call middle class tastes and traits, no doubt reflecting my ‘mixed’ social background!

It’s probably because of the decline in the UK of manufacturing and production in steel, ships, mines, cars, etc. etc. and the masses employed there, that we’ve had class fragmentation and the loss of the distinctive sub-cultures. But again, that’s another story.

[Sotosound]

Hi sotosound,

The thread is about why Motown became popular in the UK, and I think that if you accept that a particular kind of music is the product of a particular type of social/political/cultural environment, you have to ask what it was about that environment which produced a) Motown in the States with its distinctive image, sound and sentiments, and b) what it was in Britain which produced a widespread enthusiasm and commercial demand for that same image, sound and sentiment.

If you do that, I think you’re left with the answer that there were many similarities between the social and economic environments of blacks in American cities, and those of white British manual workers.

This was so particularly in the industrial strongholds of the north, who in the late 60s and early 70s were enjoying some of their most secure and prosperous years, thanks to low unemployment, relatively high wages, strong unions, a generous welfare state, a booming consumer society and of course gender equality. Let's not forget Motown was pretty much as popular with the girls as boys, and probably the first musical trend to be so.

As you said, peak demand for Motown in the UK was between about 69-72, although it remained strong for the old records in clubs/pubs/jukeboxes nationwide until much, much later. These sources reflected [[rather than shaped) public taste, as did the radio stations which continued to play the hits throughout – BBC Radio 1 from 1968 and commercial FM from 1973.

Papers like NME, MM and Sounds were indeed more specialised, as you say, serving a rock-oriented subculture. But, I’d argue that was mainly a 6^thform/college-kid sub-culture, and as such the papers’ core appeal lay with the middle class, and those with middle class aspirations.

I also agree that if you ask people why they liked Motown, they just say they ‘liked what they liked’, as they did in the Yorkshire town where I grew up. But, asking individuals isn’t very useful because most of us don’t have that level of awareness. They don’t say ‘I like it because I’m working class and my social environment is just like the American blacks’, who’ve never had it so good, just like me’.

Point is, that we’re often unaware of how our tastes, particularly with regard to music, fashion, etc. are shaped by our social environments.

It was distinctive social and political conditions which gave birth to blues, reggae and Motown, etc. And no doubt their practitioners and fans said pretty much the same thing, i.e. that they just ‘liked what they liked’.

Yes sure, as with any trend there are exceptions, yourself included. No trend ever has 100% conformity. So, despite my hometown being a Motown hotbed, I also had mates who listened to other stuff, particularly chart stuff, whether Status Quo or some crappy novelty record. I also had mates who didn’t label themselves in class terms, any more than I labelled myself, either then or now for that matter. Nobody did!

Yet, there were still aspects of their attitudes, values, tastes and preferences etc. which were what we’d call ‘working class’. I shared some of them too, but they were mixed with what we’d now call middle class tastes and traits, no doubt reflecting my ‘mixed’ social background!

It’s probably because of the decline in the UK of manufacturing and production in steel, ships, mines, cars, etc. etc. and the masses employed there, that we’ve had class fragmentation and the loss of the distinctive sub-cultures. But again, that’s another story.

While I can't deny that we're all subject to environmental and socio-economic influences, I've never ever considered my musical tastes in that context.

Perhaps I am an exception, however, or perhaps I'm not. I dunno. My mother was a musician and music teacher born and raised in Cambridge, and trained at the Royal College of Music in London. She had a very mixed opinion of pop music, so I had classical influences from her and pop influences from radio and TV. Hence I remember running along the beach when I was about 4 or 5 singing the main melody from the Light Cavalry Overture by Suppe, and then a year or two later singing "The Young Ones" by Cliff Richard to our dog. [[Sadly, it died not long after. Perhaps I caused it.)

A few years later, after the Beatles had arrived, pop music kind of grew up and my mother took a greater interest in it. She really liked some of the West Coast harmonies employed by Mamas and Papas and The Association, plus Scott Walker. And she really loved "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" by Marvin Gaye, as well as a lot of George Benson.

Pop music was also a means to get her pupils at school to engage in music lessons. Hence "Minuetto Allegretto" by The Wombles turned out to be very handy both in engaging her pupils and in teaching them a little bit about classical music.

As for me, Motown really started to appeal as I hit my teenage years. I loved "Reflections" by DRATS, for instance. When I was 14, I bought my very first Tamla Motown single, "Don't Know Why I Love You" by Stevie Wonder, and it went from there while all the time Tony Blackburn was playing Motown to the whole nation.

As I grew more mature, the emotional content of Motown really started to call to me, and I developed a great love for tracks such as "My Whole World Ended" by David Ruffin. And it wasn't just Motown. I also loved a lot of other soul music, as well as liking some Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin alongside pure pop such as "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" by Steam, "Sugar Sugar" by The Archies, "Space Oddity" by David Bowie and loads of other stuff across the spectrum. Plus I also liked some classical music.

My sister, meanwhile, was into Stones and Zepp and Sabbath and Curved Air etc. My younger brother loved bands such as The Police, Rush and Duran Duran and became a [[very good) drummer for a while.

I never ever considered my musical taste in the context of where I lived or the environment in which I grew up, and I still wouldn't like to attribute my musical preferences to anything other than what floats my own personal boat.

That's my experience. Yours is clearly different, so let's agree to hold different views and get back to the music itself.

[Tailspinner]

While I can't deny that we're all subject to environmental and socio-economic influences, I've never ever considered my musical tastes in that context.

Perhaps I am an exception, however, or perhaps I'm not. I dunno. My mother was a musician and music teacher born and raised in Cambridge, and trained at the Royal College of Music in London. She had a very mixed opinion of pop music, so I had classical influences from her and pop influences from radio and TV. Hence I remember running along the beach when I was about 4 or 5 singing the main melody from the Light Cavalry Overture by Suppe, and then a year or two later singing "The Young Ones" by Cliff Richard to our dog. [[Sadly, it died not long after. Perhaps I caused it.)

A few years later, after the Beatles had arrived, pop music kind of grew up and my mother took a greater interest in it. She really liked some of the West Coast harmonies employed by Mamas and Papas and The Association, plus Scott Walker. And she really loved "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" by Marvin Gaye, as well as a lot of George Benson.

Pop music was also a means to get her pupils at school to engage in music lessons. Hence "Minuetto Allegretto" by The Wombles turned out to be very handy both in engaging her pupils and in teaching them a little bit about classical music.

As for me, Motown really started to appeal as I hit my teenage years. I loved "Reflections" by DRATS, for instance. When I was 14, I bought my very first Tamla Motown single, "Don't Know Why I Love You" by Stevie Wonder, and it went from there while all the time Tony Blackburn was playing Motown to the whole nation.

As I grew more mature, the emotional content of Motown really started to call to me, and I developed a great love for tracks such as "My Whole World Ended" by David Ruffin. And it wasn't just Motown. I also loved a lot of other soul music, as well as liking some Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin alongside pure pop such as "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" by Steam, "Sugar Sugar" by The Archies, "Space Oddity" by David Bowie and loads of other stuff across the spectrum. Plus I also liked some classical music.

My sister, meanwhile, was into Stones and Zepp and Sabbath and Curved Air etc. My younger brother loved bands such as The Police, Rush and Duran Duran and became a [[very good) drummer for a while.

I never ever considered my musical taste in the context of where I lived or the environment in which I grew up, and I still wouldn't like to attribute my musical preferences to anything other than what floats my own personal boat.

That's my experience. Yours is clearly different, so let's agree to hold different views and get back to the music itself.

Sure, variety is the spice…

Yours is an interesting bio. I guess such a wide range if influences is quite rare. I wish I’d had a similarly broad education, musically speaking. My granddad played piano, first in an orchestra, then in cinemas for the silent movies, before the work dried up and he got steady job in the stores on the Scunthorpe steel works! I’d hear him play at his home whenever we visited as a family. But apart from that I never heard proper live music until I was a teenager, at the Top Rank in Doncaster... not at a Motown special, but to see Bowie on tour as Ziggy!

My town was Goole [[though we lived just outside). You’d say it was a working-class town, a bit like a pit town but with a port instead. A fairly prosperous hard-working, hard-drinking place, where most people had a connection with the docks or some light industry nearby.

As a teenager, Northern soul and Motown were massive, and you heard the tunes everywhere you went. There was no real venue locally, so fans set up bus trips to the all-nighters on Wigan, Stoke and other places.

Tho’ I was immersed in soul and Motown I couldn’t identify at all with its image or sentiments. I wore the clothes – high waistband bags, stax shoes / loafers, fred perry's, Ben Shermans, button down collars, rolled up sleeves…. but always found the heavy and progressive bands more exciting to listen to – they seemed subversive and dangerous, and just seemed to attract more like minded souls [[no pun intended).

But, it wasn’t until much later that I began to understand more about soul/Motown and their origins and appeal. I think it probably started in the mid-1980s, when, browsing in the York University library, I came across something about Berry Gordy [[can’t remember the title) and I was amazed that a book had actually been written about Motown, and that it had been created in the way it was!

Later on, and after so watching so many tv docs about pop in general - y'know BBC4 on Friday nights, I began thinking about the thread title - why it took off in the UK the way it did - and with a bit of sociological imagination, the pieces began to fall into place, particularly when you wonder why soul/Motown weren’t appropriated by the blacks in Britain of the 60s and 70s, who mostly preferred reggae, because it was the music of the marginalised which seemed to speak to their cultural present in Britain at the time, as well as reflecting their cultural past.

I think to understand the production and consumption of culture and the arts in Britain, it’s important to understand the role played by class, something which has been long understood by marketing people as well as sociologists.

It has got a lot harder now, given the fragmentation of class through the loss of traditional industry with its heavy reliance on manual labour, and the shared attitudes, values and so on of that labour. There’s also multiculturalism; immigration from around the world, and of course feminism, and the rise of social media and the internet, which has changed the ways we relate to one another and created a ‘supermarket’ of style, taste, and of course, of music.

Any road, rambling here, and I’ve got some chips on! Thanks for the chat, interesting stuff…

[Sotosound]

Sure, variety is the spice…

Yours is an interesting bio. I guess such a wide range if influences is quite rare. I wish I’d had a similarly broad education, musically speaking. My granddad played piano, first in an orchestra, then in cinemas for the silent movies, before the work dried up and he got steady job in the stores on the Scunthorpe steel works! I’d hear him play at his home whenever we visited as a family. But apart from that I never heard proper live music until I was a teenager, at the Top Rank in Doncaster... not at a Motown special, but to see Bowie on tour as Ziggy!

My town was Goole [[though we lived just outside). You’d say it was a working-class town, a bit like a pit town but with a port instead. A fairly prosperous hard-working, hard-drinking place, where most people had a connection with the docks or some light industry nearby.

As a teenager, Northern soul and Motown were massive, and you heard the tunes everywhere you went. There was no real venue locally, so fans set up bus trips to the all-nighters on Wigan, Stoke and other places.

Tho’ I was immersed in soul and Motown I couldn’t identify at all with its image or sentiments. I wore the clothes – high waistband bags, stax shoes / loafers, fred perry's, Ben Shermans, button down collars, rolled up sleeves…. but always found the heavy and progressive bands more exciting to listen to – they seemed subversive and dangerous, and just seemed to attract more like minded souls [[no pun intended).

But, it wasn’t until much later that I began to understand more about soul/Motown and their origins and appeal. I think it probably started in the mid-1980s, when, browsing in the York University library, I came across something about Berry Gordy [[can’t remember the title) and I was amazed that a book had actually been written about Motown, and that it had been created in the way it was!

Later on, and after so watching so many tv docs about pop in general - y'know BBC4 on Friday nights, I began thinking about the thread title - why it took off in the UK the way it did - and with a bit of sociological imagination, the pieces began to fall into place, particularly when you wonder why soul/Motown weren’t appropriated by the blacks in Britain of the 60s and 70s, who mostly preferred reggae, because it was the music of the marginalised which seemed to speak to their cultural present in Britain at the time, as well as reflecting their cultural past.

I think to understand the production and consumption of culture and the arts in Britain, it’s important to understand the role played by class, something which has been long understood by marketing people as well as sociologists.

It has got a lot harder now, given the fragmentation of class through the loss of traditional industry with its heavy reliance on manual labour, and the shared attitudes, values and so on of that labour. There’s also multiculturalism; immigration from around the world, and of course feminism, and the rise of social media and the internet, which has changed the ways we relate to one another and created a ‘supermarket’ of style, taste, and of course, of music.

Any road, rambling here, and I’ve got some chips on! Thanks for the chat, interesting stuff…

So, from your biography, you were an exception too?

Although you tried to conform, you couldn’t. You always knew what you really liked.

Instead, you developed an understanding and liking for Motown at a later time, presumably at a point where you were more independent of thought and allowed yourself to just be you.

[tmd]

The Brits had it right with the Four Tops, as much as I love the Tempts and all the other acts, the Four Tops were always the best, did not understand why they always seem to be in the Temps shadows , with Levi Stubbs voice who can compare. Brits glad you all saw the genius of the Four Tops .

[reachoutuk]

The Brits had it right with the Four Tops, as much as I love the Tempts and all the other acts, the Four Tops were always the best, did not understand why they always seem to be in the Temps shadows , with Levi Stubbs voice who can compare. Brits glad you all saw the genius of the Four Tops .

Hi tmd,
I'm more than happy to accept your compliment personally! If I had to choose a favourite artist, then in the early days, say up to 1967/8, it would be the Four Tops. Having said that, after 1967/8 I probably prefer the Temptations' later work to the Four Tops. It might be a little controversial, but I like the "psychedelic" albums that they issued.

[Tailspinner]

So, from your biography, you were an exception too?

Although you tried to conform, you couldn’t. You always knew what you really liked.

Instead, you developed an understanding and liking for Motown at a later time, presumably at a point where you were more independent of thought and allowed yourself to just be you.

Well, as a teenager I wasn’t bothered about what a poster above rightly called Motown's ‘blue collar’ appeal or credentials. Nor did I “want to conform but couldn’t”. I simply couldn’t identify with what I saw as its saccharine romance, mush, and the inauthenticity of it, especially the presentational aspects – the shiny suits, the unison choreography, the crooning and hair straightening… all far too camp!

Later on it was mainly a nostalgia thing. Those records aren’t as commonly heard now, so when you do hear them, it’s like time travel - like with ‘Rock the Boat’ on the 10,000th episode of Coronation St. the other night! [[OK not Motown, but a similar style and appeal).

Having discovered more about Motown - its social origins, production, the skills evident in the songwriting, musicianship, etc. it now has a different kind of attraction, as do many other kinds of music I didn’t like back then – jazz for example.

Basically, I came to relate to Motown and other kinds of music in a different way. Having said that, although there are lots of great singles, I think most would agree there’s also a lot of duff tracks and filler on many of those chartbuster LPs!

[Sotosound]

Having said that, although there are lots of great singles, I think most would agree there’s also a lot of duff tracks and filler on many of those chartbuster LPs!

Hmmm!

Chacun à son goût.