Smokey Produces.....Mary Wilson

[sup_fan]

well we have to sort of make assumptions here or go off of whatever content is available.

For Flo, there's such a limited amount of content. her only live lead is on the handful of People that we've received. and frankly i've never found those to be awe inspiring renditions. then we have a handful of her studio work. some are excellent, most are average and some are rather bad. based on the material we have, i've made the assumption that, vocally, she doesn't have the adaptability than other singers do.

Mary in 1970 was a very limited singer IMO. her solo performance on Hollywood Palace of Can't Take My Eyes is acceptable at best. but trying to build a 60 minute show around her would be a major challenge. based on her 70s performance, the high octane dance songs are NOT a strength for her, light bubbly pop doesn't work either. So again as with Flo, she doesn't have the adaptability.

You mention Aretha and other artists. Aretha might approach the vast majority of her work from a gospel perspective. but her gospel capabilities border on virtuoso so that can be expected. yes it doesn't have the variety but she's so incredibly good at what she does, it's warranted.

all of this though is arguing a false argument that "solo" work is somehow preferable or superior to "group" work. while F and M might not have the broadest vocal capabilities, they're both excellent entertainers and they really developed strong and unique stage personalities. they were never just two anonymous girls humming and swaying behind Diana. I think the idea to continue the Sups as powerful group post Diana was the right one. it's just that, IMO, bad decisions were made which eroded the group's public perception and sales

[RanRan79]

well we have to sort of make assumptions here or go off of whatever content is available.

For Flo, there's such a limited amount of content. her only live lead is on the handful of People that we've received. and frankly i've never found those to be awe inspiring renditions. then we have a handful of her studio work. some are excellent, most are average and some are rather bad. based on the material we have, i've made the assumption that, vocally, she doesn't have the adaptability than other singers do.

Mary in 1970 was a very limited singer IMO. her solo performance on Hollywood Palace of Can't Take My Eyes is acceptable at best. but trying to build a 60 minute show around her would be a major challenge. based on her 70s performance, the high octane dance songs are NOT a strength for her, light bubbly pop doesn't work either. So again as with Flo, she doesn't have the adaptability.

You mention Aretha and other artists. Aretha might approach the vast majority of her work from a gospel perspective. but her gospel capabilities border on virtuoso so that can be expected. yes it doesn't have the variety but she's so incredibly good at what she does, it's warranted.

all of this though is arguing a false argument that "solo" work is somehow preferable or superior to "group" work. while F and M might not have the broadest vocal capabilities, they're both excellent entertainers and they really developed strong and unique stage personalities. they were never just two anonymous girls humming and swaying behind Diana. I think the idea to continue the Sups as powerful group post Diana was the right one. it's just that, IMO, bad decisions were made which eroded the group's public perception and sales

Oh no, I wouldn't dare suggest that solo is preferable to a group- I love groups too much. However, when dealing with groups, that's a tough challenge. Everything regarding your career hinges on the people in the group, as we saw with the events leading up to Flo's firing. And you have to split the money. A lot of singers in groups who feel their talented enough to sing on stage alone eventually opt for that and I don't personally believe that either Flo or Mary would've been satisfied remaining Supremes for the rest of their lives, especially once Diana went solo and was able to garner attention all for herself. Don't forget there is a lot of ego involved in being in the entertainment industry, and for all the flack that Diana gets for her ego, truth is Flo had one also.

So my hypothesis is that the Supremes had to end eventually. Why not do it when Diana left? Personally I feel Flo's talent was good enough to sing a song alone. Did she have some misses? Yup. There aint a singer alive who hasn't. And while I'm not always "wowed" by Mary's singing, I think with the right songs she could have found a place. Not to mention both Flo and Mary had star quality. Both were gorgeous. Like I said, let Gordy focus on readying Diana, let someone else take on Flo and another take on Mary. Post 1970 Diana is having a couple hits and on her way to a hit movie; Flo has a couple hits and probably a movie role; Mary has a couple hits and maybe a lot of product endorsements. All of this is money in Motown's pocket. The Supremes were among the biggest stars in the world. By 1970, they each should've been able to exit the Supremes and fart out a hit single. If Ringo Starr can have hits after the Beatles, no one will convince me that Flo and Mary weren't capable.

[sup_fan]

Oh no, I wouldn't dare suggest that solo is preferable to a group- I love groups too much. However, when dealing with groups, that's a tough challenge. Everything regarding your career hinges on the people in the group, as we saw with the events leading up to Flo's firing. And you have to split the money. A lot of singers in groups who feel their talented enough to sing on stage alone eventually opt for that and I don't personally believe that either Flo or Mary would've been satisfied remaining Supremes for the rest of their lives, especially once Diana went solo and was able to garner attention all for herself. Don't forget there is a lot of ego involved in being in the entertainment industry, and for all the flack that Diana gets for her ego, truth is Flo had one also.

So my hypothesis is that the Supremes had to end eventually. Why not do it when Diana left? Personally I feel Flo's talent was good enough to sing a song alone. Did she have some misses? Yup. There aint a singer alive who hasn't. And while I'm not always "wowed" by Mary's singing, I think with the right songs she could have found a place. Not to mention both Flo and Mary had star quality. Both were gorgeous. Like I said, let Gordy focus on readying Diana, let someone else take on Flo and another take on Mary. Post 1970 Diana is having a couple hits and on her way to a hit movie; Flo has a couple hits and probably a movie role; Mary has a couple hits and maybe a lot of product endorsements. All of this is money in Motown's pocket. The Supremes were among the biggest stars in the world. By 1970, they each should've been able to exit the Supremes and fart out a hit single. If Ringo Starr can have hits after the Beatles, no one will convince me that Flo and Mary weren't capable.

i agree with the general notion that both M and F demonstrated they had enough star and entertainer qualities to warrant some investment by motown. again, i think that investment should have come in the form of advancing the group. completely agree with you that a group has it's own set of challenges, since you're dealing with multiple people. putting that aside, i think projects and activities that highlighted each member or allowed each to grow could still be found. and of course while still in the group, they could do individual activities. it's not that all 3 Supremes are conjoined twins and can't branch out here and there. Scherrie has done plenty of solo and outside work while still leading the Former Ladies.

[RanRan79]

i agree with the general notion that both M and F demonstrated they had enough star and entertainer qualities to warrant some investment by motown. again, i think that investment should have come in the form of advancing the group. completely agree with you that a group has it's own set of challenges, since you're dealing with multiple people. putting that aside, i think projects and activities that highlighted each member or allowed each to grow could still be found. and of course while still in the group, they could do individual activities. it's not that all 3 Supremes are conjoined twins and can't branch out here and there. Scherrie has done plenty of solo and outside work while still leading the Former Ladies.

I really would've loved to hear Flo do some of the Stax type stuff. "Like You Babe" is one of my favs from her solo stuff and it comes across as a Stax knockoff demo. Mary I think had the possibilities to handle Dionne Warwick type songs, and then as the 70s progressed, Roberta Flack. Flo's gospel, blues background makes soul probably what she would've excelled in. Mary has always spoken about her love of jazz, and I think her smoky vocals are right in line with that and easy listening.

[sup_fan]

I really would've loved to hear Flo do some of the Stax type stuff. "Like You Babe" is one of my favs from her solo stuff and it comes across as a Stax knockoff demo. Mary I think had the possibilities to handle Dionne Warwick type songs, and then as the 70s progressed, Roberta Flack. Flo's gospel, blues background makes soul probably what she would've excelled in. Mary has always spoken about her love of jazz, and I think her smoky vocals are right in line with that and easy listening.

completely agree with your thoughts here. looking at the last Sup album [[MS&S) it seems that the Hollands at least attempted to find different vehicles for each woman. Mary, Scherrie and Susaye each had unique talents and songs seems to highlight that nicely. even in their shared leads on Dream Machine. I don't know how much forethought really went into the writing and selection of each song but the results seem to show that there was.

As opposed to live when they simply handed Susaye [[again i'm assuming here) the musical charts for People or He Ain't Heavy. my guess is they needed a solo spotlight for her and just used existing music rather than working with her to identify and develop an perfect song.

so as you mention with F and M, there were definitely opportunities to focus on their talents had management so desired.

[Ollie9]

G

completely agree with your thoughts here. looking at the last Sup album [[MS&S) it seems that the Hollands at least attempted to find different vehicles for each woman. Mary, Scherrie and Susaye each had unique talents and songs seems to highlight that nicely. even in their shared leads on Dream Machine. I don't know how much forethought really went into the writing and selection of each song but the results seem to show that there was.

Agree, that is what makes the MS&S album so special. All three Women are each given songs that highlight their individual vocal talents. When sharing leads, the diversity in their voices makes for an exciting sound. Another major factor of course is that all three members were more then capable of singing lead. The production on the album is amazing for 76. It still sounds fresh and relevant here in 2021.
I wonder which direction the group would have gone in had they recorded another album together?. Perhaps a name change to Mary Wilson & The Supremes might have made MW reconsider her solo plans.

[milven]

G

Agree, that is what makes the MS&S album so special. All three Women are each given songs that highlight their individual vocal talents. When sharing leads, the diversity in their voices makes for an exciting sound. Another major factor of course is that all three members were more then capable of singing lead. The production on the album is amazing for 76. It still sounds fresh and relevant here in 2021.
I wonder which direction the group would have gone in had they recorded another album together?. Perhaps a name change to Mary Wilson & The Supremes might have made MW reconsider her solo plans.

It was nice to see them performing as a group in the end sharing leads and at times singing in harmony. Wouldn't changing the name to Mary Wilson and the Supremes and having Mary step up in front of the others with little or no camera time, just be history repeating itself?

I am old fashioned, I admit. To me, a group is a group of people who sing together in harmony, with a lead singer who usually does one part solo. Sometimes, each member does a solo in the song - like The Originals.

I get sad when I see groups like the Supremes, the Bluenotes, the Miracles, the Teenagers, etc change their name to feature one of the members. Especially, when the Bluenotes changed their name to Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes and then Teddy Bear sang all the leads.

This was the Supremes last tv appearance.

[RanRan79]

Perhaps a name change to Mary Wilson & The Supremes might have made MW reconsider her solo plans.

I'm not sure that would've made any difference, unless she was sold on the move being a springboard into a solo career. While I do agree that there is definitely moves that could've been made to ease the tensions and anxiety within some of the lineups, one thing to keep in mind about Mary is that by 1977 she had been doing the Supremes [[and Primettes) since she was 13/14 years old, and at the time of her exit, she was 33. That's a long time for an adult to be in the "same" position. And like a lot of us, expecting us to remain where we were as a teenager or have the same goals we did at that age, I think is unrealistic. Like Sup said, there's nothing wrong with being in a group vs solo, as far as one being superior over the other. But knowing human behavior, a group can be stifling in a way that being a solo artist is not. I've always said that Diana left the Supremes at the right time. Had she remained for even another year or two, that magic would've been stifled. She needed to branch out and stretch her wings, if it was only to satisfy her own need to see if she could indeed make it on her own. That's not a feeling I would've begrudged any other Supreme, including Flo and Mary. Now could the argument have been made that after flopping as a solo that Mary should've called up other willing Supremes to reform the group? I don't think I would argue in favor of that, but I think it would be fun to discuss what that might look like.

[johnjeb]

i agree with the general notion that both M and F demonstrated they had enough star and entertainer qualities to warrant some investment by motown. again, i think that investment should have come in the form of advancing the group. completely agree with you that a group has it's own set of challenges, since you're dealing with multiple people.

In hindsight, I think the best decision would have been to have Diana Ross leave The Supremes sometime in mid-to-late 1967.

With the HDH work slow-down and Florence's erratic behavior and Mary being disgruntled, to some extent, maybe 1967 was the time to accelerate plans for Diana to leave the group. Florence and Mary could hire a third woman and continue as The Supremes. I'm sure Motown could have found plenty of appropriate material for them to record. I think it might have been easier for The Supremes to reinvent themselves in the late 60s rather than in the early 70s which was more competitive and more musically diverse. Or it might have been their time to say goodbye. Success or not, in the long run, would be up to them.

Reflections was in the can by May 1967 so it could have been a final release coinciding with a farewell tour that year. If DMF continuing to tour as a group was not feasible then The Happening would be their last release with Diana, while Reflections would be the first solo single for Diana.

It seems that by 1967 Mary and Florence, in Motown’s eyes, had become less important to the group. After Florence was dismissed, Mary and Cindy seemed more like props than full group members. I think that worked at a disadvantage for both The Supremes and Diana, as to how they were each perceived.

The singles released after Reflections would have served as Diana solo singles with pretty much the same result as for DRATS. Maybe 1969 - a dreadful year for DRATS releases - might have fared better for DR solo material [[Keep An Eye or Evening Train as single releases, for example).

The Ed Sullivan Show and other variety shows continued through the end of the decade and a bit beyond so I think both The Supremes and Diana would still be a draw for these shows. T.C.B. could still star Diana Ross with guest stars The Supremes and The Temptations.

So basically had Diana left in 1967 her career, regarding single and album releases, as well as personal appearances on TV would probably remain the same and maybe fare better. The Supremes might not have been as successful on the charts but a reinvented group might have allowed Mary and Florence to hone their own skills and talents to use as a springboard for other opportunities in the entertainment field - or not.