Are you telling me that the superb recording of Florence Ballard singing "O Holy Night" was cataloged and shelved as not having any vocals on it? Is this why we did not get to hear it for over 30 years? That is incredible! It was the best Christmas song The Supremes ever recorded. As I said some time ago, if Marlene and them are claiming too much credit now all these years later, I am not buying it period. They cannot remember everything right from 45-50 years ago.
I highly doubt that when they were doing the Complete Motown Singles that they ordered all of the multitracks for all of the songs and used those. What they most likely used were duplicate masters or the masters on which the particular mix that was used for the single was on. Those masters, especially in the 60's, were mono. So it was a mono mix. That's much different than the multitrack tape on which was recording all of the vocals, instruments, etc. They are two different things. When you are doing something as big as the Complete Motown Singles, I don't think Harry, Andy, etc. had time to sit down and mix/master each and every multitrack tape. All they needed was the mix used for the single, so that's what they went to.
I think you've be very surprised what's on those multitrack tapes especially when things are isolated on their own...
There was no reason to pull the multitrack tapes for The Complete Motown Singles or Diana Ross & The Supremes Singles Collection. We used only original mixes and the multitracks are only necessary for remixing a song. We were working on More Hits By The Supremes and The Singles Collection at the same time and were doing new mixes of several songs for More Hits. That is when we discovered some new information about back up vocals and after much deliberation adjusted the liner notes to both collections.
I truly believe that in the future there's no need to clarify who is doing back up vocals. It's more important to just enjoy the music.
I believe that George and Andy have done yeomen's jobs over the years to bring us Motown treasures, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart for this.
For myself, I have to do quite a bit of research and investigation at my job. Things to me are just not adding up. Notwithstanding that, I am not going to go back and forth with George and Andy on who sang backgrounds on this record. I believe that the statement of only Andantes on this record, [[after the postings on this forum), to be inconclusive.
I believe that on the commercial record, the personnel singing are Diana, Flo, Mary and Marlene.
It is still, and will always be, a wonderful record, and the first few bars of Stop! are to this day, jawdropping. It's a great record anyway you look at it.
My opinon of this is If we keep getting "new" information printed regardless if it's true or not and if it's not in favor of the group, then the legacy of the Supremes will falter and evaporate and sales of their catalog will also go away. BTW this is not good for Diana Ross or for Motown because then it raises a LOT of other questions. Up to this point the loyal fans have stuck by motown and bought all of the releases but over the last 10 to 15 years [[on these boards in particular) It has not been about music at all and it has lessened the whole Motown experience.
No matter if the information that's been recently released is true or not, it's has been put out there and that can cause doubt in some. So at this point it doesn't matter if "Motown" includes their opinion of who sang on what in the future releases the damage is done! Motives and credibility will be questioned for all parties involved.
Last edited by soulballad; 02-24-2012 at 04:26 PM.
It's safe to say that Diana Ross won't be affected. She is singing lead on all those songs. The fact of the matter is Mary and Florence sing on MOST on those songs. There are some songs where one or both of the ladies singing backup were replaced- or songs that had other singers in addition to Mary and Flo. But that happens across the board, with many record companies. It is really not a shocking as some make it seem. Mary Wilson, Florence Ballard, and Cindy Birdsong fans are blowing this all out of proportion.
Dear George,
There are a few people who, because they want things a certain way, will always insist on it. I know a man who had a heart attack because his insurance converted to an HMO and he refused to get a referral - thinking it was Hilary Clinton's health care reform in action. He lost his periphieral vision for life. Please don't punish the vast majority who, like Andy said, want the truth about the music that we love. I don't care who is on Stop! I only know I bought it the day it came out and still play it. For the record, I don't hear Mary OR Flo on it, and cetainly, have always missed Flo on You Can't hurry Love. I have a friend who says The Andantes were so incredibly talented, that they could pass for Supremes, Marvelettes and Vandellas. I concur. Mary & Flo were talented, but they weren't always what the producers wanted. What's the big deal? I applaud your work, say Bravo! and send my best wishes to those so obviously upset, first we have to deal with no Santa Claus, and now THIS!
Ha funny enough been listening to Marvelettes vol 2 never knew Flo, Cindy ,Mary had also sang backup with the Marvelettes,cheers.
Except most people don't care. So Mary & Flo aren't on Stop! - who cares? They aren't on Love Child - who cares? It's still their biggest selling single of all time. It's the music - The supremes, in all of their incarnations, included The Andantes or other session singers. Mary tried to paint a false conspiracy theory in her feebly facted bio, claiming that Motown began using The Andantes after Flo left o get the public used to just Diana's voice. I laughed at that notion then, and now that we know the A's were on early hits and entire LP's in 1965, that shoots Mary's credibility AND motivations to hell. This does nothing to lessen The Motown Experience for me - it enhances it. I'm fascinated by the work put into the music we all hold so dear. I'm sure Stop! would have been just as big or close if Mary & Flo were on it, but HDH felt differently at the time of creation. I hope you will come to love the music for how it sounds - not the mechanics behind it.
Brilliant! Thank you. Thank you for all of your hard work, and putting the truth above the fiction.
But they ARE on "Stop In the Name of Love" and now see, you done gave yourself away when you described Mary Wilson's New York Times Bestseller and the all time best selling music relate biography, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme" as her "feebly facted bio.
I think you set a new all time World record for losing you public credibility here with just your third posting. Now I know how to view your comments from here on! Thanks. LOL!
Oh and for the record. According the Supremes contracts, it was illegal for Motown to replace her, Florence or Diane on recordings by the Supremes or in stage performances if either were physically able to perform/sing. It all came out in court in 1977. No conspiracy theories just the fact that Motown was in breach of contract when they recorded "Love Child", "Someday We'll Be Together". They said nothing about "Stop In the Name of Love", because Mary and Florence are on that record.
themotownmaniac well said could not have put it better, what a sellout-loser. cheers.
Now, that is who I'd like to hear from regarding this near worn out subject, the Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier. They were there!
It's not a "There You Have It" situation when someone whose hearing may or not be accurate says something that is completely subjective. I've heard people say all KINDS of things, I've heard John Perrone say with complete certainty that Cindy is not singing the operatic intro in "The Loving Country", and we all know that's totally untrue. We HAVE the isolated background vocals, but not EACH vocalist isolated. When 3 people are singing together, sometimes people's judgement can be thrown off as to who is in the mix. And singers don't always sound EXACTLY the same on every song. If one of the HOLLANDS makes that statement, then I will accept it as fact.
Thanks George.
I know you guys who actually work on these projects have some reluctance to enter the fray and bring rationality and facts into the mix of high anxiety and emotion. I respect you greatly for setting the record straight.
If the doubters/haters can't take it from George and Andy, they couldn't take it from Berry, Mary and Diana, or even Diane.
But deep down, you know the man has served you the final goods and Roberta is right ~ it's a done story. And Motown Maniac is also right..............who cares?
Mary is not laying awake at night over this and Diane doesn't know and Diana doesn't care; too busy on the tour.
Marv ,
Don't your 'they' mean Mary & Motown?
Perhaps "they" said nothing about "Stop In The Name Of Love" , because Mary and Flo recorded vocals which may have been used on one version and not the other. Mary may not have been listening all that closely to notice/ distinguish on which version the Andantes were added/ replaced the Supremes. If Mary didn't notice, she wouldn't bring the song up in any lawsuit.
"Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" are an entirely different issue- Mary knows that she was not on either; Cindy also knows the same. Mary brought these up, cause she knew for sure!
Therefore, Marv, your argument on this post is like comparing apples and oranges and not all that effective.
I don't have a problem with truth. In fact if HDH stated some facts I could accept it and move on. Anyone other than HDH or Diana or Mary is just offering an opinon pure and simple!
Love Factory The History Of Holland Dozier Holland by Howard Priestley, the book I started many years back and [[hopefully) as accurate a history as I could write is now available on Kindle.
Oh, it's still feebly facted because even IF they are on Stop!, they are not on many, many other recordings from 1965 and beyond, and Mary knows this. Still, she chose to say it was a conspiracy after Flo left, claimed they performed on shows they didn't yada yada. as you said, it was years ago - how could Mary remember every detail? Anyway, what do you care about Mary - she asked you publicly and privately to stop your mudslinging and yet you continue. Mary is doing her Lena Horne show in Las Vegas in May - are you going? It should be good.
I don't believe anything that I didn't already believe in 1965 when I first heard this record. All I see is some words on the internet. I have ears [[that have been checked during a recent physical) that are still very good and I believe them,not what I am reading here. Get the Holland Brothers or just drop the subject.
Oh yeah Mary Wilson will be playing the Rrazz Room again with "Upclose" and in Vegas with "The Lena Horne Project". She also recently served as a mentor to Jordan Sparks for the upcoming film "Sparkle" starring the greatest female singer that ever recorded, Ms. Whitney Houston!
Blather, blather.....blather! and I just posted about Mary's upcoming appearance in Vegs in May. I don't know if I will go yet. Are you going to Norwins Supremes Convention in D.C.? You, it will be great and I am sure there will be a few folks there that would to meet you........
You are wasting your breath. He won't give in because he doesn't want to. He doesn't care what the facts are - he does care about image. Which is why he spends countless hours online bashing Diana Ross and praising Mary. It would be admirable if he stuck to the truth and was classy about it, but he uses foul language, homophobic slurs and false information to bolster his claim. Even his Yahoo Mary Group is down to just a very few participants because of the negativity and falsehoods. He says Mary and he are friends and that they talk etc. I sent her a lot of those instances and she didn't even know who he was, asked for a photo and claimed never to have been to his group. When a member invited her there to see what was going on, he banned him for interfering. But have no fear. All of his claims are being supplied to Mary with an invitation here so she, personally, can address all this pettiness [[her word) and hopefully put an end to it all. She is very, very unhappy with the negativity directed toward Diana by a few of her fans and wants us all to live in peace as we enter our golden years. The words are Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)......... make this world a better place, if you can!
Oh yes, I will be there and am looking forward to meeting everyone!
I like the Supremes' records. I consider the mono hit single "You Keep Me Hanging On" perhaps the best pop song of the 60s. I don't know or care who actually sang the backgrounds. I just like the song. That guitar figure on the intro and throughout the song is killer!
There's no rationality and fact in someone's subjective opinion, it is someone saying that THEY think it's Andantes, and not Mary and Flo. Like I said, if the INDIVIDUAL backgrounds were separated, then the evidence would be obvious, but when three women are singing together, it's harder to tell. Did you just ignore the video clip comparison I posted earlier? Here's another:
That is definitely Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson, Diana Ross singing on that record. Thanks Jill. Now until the Holland Brothers and Lamont Dozier tells us differently, then anything else is just the opinion of someone else that was not even in the studio that day and clearly do not know the voices of the Supremes very well.
We'll give him the weekend to discover what a Kindle is, ok?
when you directly compare the first 10 seconds of those clips, I think it's quite obvious they are the same, with one extra voice added on the first clip. My main issue is this. If I were George or Andy, I would not have presented this information as FACT unless you talked to the people who were THERE and confirmed it. Those clips I posted above cast serious doubt on their statements. I don't think their intentions are bad, just the opposite.. I've seen both of them post for years, and they are not shit stirrers by any means. I just think they heard something, have ran with it without THOROUGHLY vetting their information. simple as that. I DID just listen to the alternate version on the box set, and YES... the backgrounds are different, the extra voice or voices are not there. But Flo and Mary's voices are clearly on BOTH versions... with the released version containing extra voices to beef it up.
Last edited by jillfoster; 02-25-2012 at 01:19 AM.
And let's also keep in mind that not every singer sings a song the exact same way every time. Flo, in particular would change up her part on "Stop" on many occasions, like this one:
George and solomon have done good work to bring supremes fans tracks we have never heard and we do appreciate their efforts however, I have to agree with the conclusion that we insist that the record released on Feb 8, 1965 feature mary and Flo with other voice or voices with the supremes, but i think the bottom line is hearing it from hdh
or Mary Wilson, since they were the ones involved in the background recording of the song and Mary would certainly remember that since it was one of their biggest hits, but here is another theory
if it is true mary and flo are alone in the bkg on where did our love go, baby love, come see about me and back in my arms again, why would they replace them on sitnof which was recorded after all of the others, and before another all supremes single nothing but heartaches the only theory i see is that that they wanted the sound fuller by adding the extra [[voice). I will try to reach Mary when she is off tour and "gently" poise the question to her, i do have her email address until i hear otherwise its the supremes to my ears.
Marv and I do not usually get along. He kicked me out of MWOS for saying I liked the background on Love Child. In Stirfry, he commented that my friend that passed of AIDS deserved what he got for being a sexual deviant and wished the same fate for me. [[It's all in the archives.) Even with that knowledge, I doubt he was meaning violence. Violence? This is 2012. Violence because we differ on background voices? LOL it can't be possible. I know I'm new here, but has anyone disagreed so vehemently about an art form that they'd resort to even inferring violence?
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