Diana Ross' Payout from Motown

[Guy]

I honestly don't know if she thought she had done a good job on those two albums. I suspect not but both rca and her wanted to deliver an album asap to cash in on the Chic album and of course Endless Love. Quincy was not yet available and it would have been very difficult to hire a top notch producer on such short notice.
Had wdffil flopped she may well have called on Quincy or even Michael Jackson to oversee the follow up , but because it was a success she pressed ahead and produced another remarkably unremarkable album. What more is there to say?

Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.

Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

[Ollie9]

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.
Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

[RanRan79]

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

I agree [[except for "Summertime"). I'll have to think about album cuts that are as or near as brilliant as her Motown stuff, but I'm not sure I'll be able to come up with anything.

[Guy]

I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

[RanRan79]

I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.

She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."

Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)

IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)

Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.

[Guy]

IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)

Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

[Bluebrock]

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

In agree with you about "reach out i'll be there'. It is one of Diana's most committed vocal performances and Nick and Val's production is quite sublime.
slightly off topic, it was Luther Vandross's personal favorite performance by Diana so we are in exhalted company!

[Guy]

In agree with you about "reach out i'll be there'. It is one of Diana's most committed vocal performances and Nick and Val's production is quite sublime.
slightly off topic, it was Luther Vandross's personal favorite performance by Diana so we are in exhalted company!

Bluebrock, thanks for that info. Luther is never off-topic as far as I'm concerned. He was a Ross connoisseur, and his talent for background vocal arrangement and execution is legendary. So hearing that he loved ROIBT made my day. We are indeed in esteemed company.

[RanRan79]

Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.

The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.

Perhaps, but that can't be used as evidence of those RCA songs being deemed of less quality than her Motown songs. Those songs have been in her act since leaving RCA. When's the last time she did "Someday We'll Be Together"? Or "Surrender"? Or "I Thought It Took A Little"? And certainly none of those songs are of any less quality than stuff like "I Will Survive" which Diana performs as if she was the one who had a hit with it. I think her RCA period is often left for the history books as opposed to Diana's shows because we fans generally regard the music as forgettable. As I said before, most of it was second rate- some even third rate- to most of what she recorded at Motown. But for me there are exceptions to that rule.

Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.

I absolutely agree about "Reach Out I'll Be There". One of Diana's finest vocal performances. Maybe I should've left it off the list because I can see how my opinion of it might have been confusing, but it was on the list because it was a horrible choice as a single, unlike the songs I highlighted at RCA which were perfect choices. As for the magic of Ross, I guess when one hears the magic it's always a subjective time. Those songs I mentioned as being A quality RCA cuts, IMO, can't be quality unless Diana's magic is present. That's key to me loving any Ross song, regardless of record label.

P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."

Add me in for "Shockwaves" also Guy.

[RanRan79]

Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.

I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.

Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.

I think "Mirror, Mirror" was as good as the Chic stuff, and it resonated with the public because it was hip and a good fit. Of course I cannot explain how "Fools" the single became a hit, other than suggesting that for the first single Diana could've done anything and the public would've ate it up. "Mirror", the track to "Work That Body" [[not to be confused with the lyrics to "Work That Body"), "Swept Away", "Missing You" and even "Chain Reaction" were worthy of Ross' talents. She needed more hits that were worthy and she needed full albums that were worthy. She lucked up on a few worthy singles here and there but just never cut anything like the 1970 debut, Surrender, TMITM, the Hangover album, BIM, The Boss or the Chic album, all bonafide classics. Her RCA albums will never be spoken about like those Motown ones because the qualities of the two sets are ridiculously set too far apart.