comparing songs - Surrender vs Nathan Jones

[sup_fan]

NJ was released in april 71, entered the charts in May 71 and peaked in June

Surrender was released in July 71, entered charts in Aug and peaked in Sept

IMO both were radical departures in sounds for both and both are radically different from one another.

what are your thoughts on both? seems like both greatly underperformed. should they have been tweaked a bit more by the producers? both also seem to have a lack of US promotion

[captainjames]

Loved Surrender and still to this day one of my favorite songs. I still wish there was longer version of the songs. Luther Vandross even expressed his love for the song. The piano in that song was right on and haunting.

[PeaceNHarmony]

I am [[perhaps) one of the few who loves both 45's. If I were forced at gop-sponsored gunpoint I would choose 'Surrender'. But ... I think both woulda-shoulda done better chart performance, both being excellent and excellently produced single releases. There are innumerable factors that enter into the performance of a 45, so who knows what happened behind the scenes. I will say that 'SW' had some TV exposure, and to my knowledge 'Surrender' had none. And ... the NYC neighboring AM stations played 'SW' but did not play 'Surrender' even once. There go the Gordy-Ross conspiracies! I'm happy that both singles exist -

[sup_fan]

i wonder if Surrender is just too incessant and non-stop. i love the song but it sometimes is a bit too pounding. perhaps more rise and fall would have made it more interesting for radio play. but it is a tour de force and an amazingly powerful song

NJ is one of the best of the 70s sups. but it just doesn't quite hit the finish line. maybe Frank was just a little bit too hesitant to go all the way with the synth effects.

[reese]

I love SURRENDER, although I am partial to anything that pairs Diana with Ashford and Simpson. They really know how to bring out the best in her. Her vocal is great on this one, as is the backing track with Val's aggressive piano.

NATHAN JONES is a record that I like a lot as well, although there were some points where I couldn't understand what they were singing.

I can't say that I would change anything about either record. Promotion can always be a factor but Diana was pregnant at the time and besides, didn't do tv all that much anyway. Maybe it just didn't grab the listening audience. Myself, I never heard it on the radio.

That said, I never heard NJ on the radio either. I believe the girls sang it on the Tonight Show but the musicians didn't quite find the groove. Maybe it didn't translate well in performance, although Mary wrote that it was a gold record. Who knows?

[TheMotownManiac]

NJ was released in april 71, entered the charts in May 71 and peaked in June

Surrender was released in July 71, entered charts in Aug and peaked in Sept

IMO both were radical departures in sounds for both and both are radically different from one another.

what are your thoughts on both? seems like both greatly underperformed. should they have been tweaked a bit more by the producers? both also seem to have a lack of US promotion

this is an excellent question!
I like both singles, but I also think both singles need work.

I stated before I think Nathan Jones needed to have better in ROTC Asian and a great climax, instead it has that slow down moment, which is nice, but it doesn’t build to anything so there’s no natural fade and it just kind of glimpse out the door. I think there’s a potential for a number one record there.

i’ve always liked this record, the dynamic 45 mix that is, but for me, it needs a lot of work. Some of the lyrics sound like they’re out of song riding 101. “ use me/abuse me etc.“ give me a break. So if it were me, I would’ve had to rewrite the verses and zip them up production wise. I love the chorus and absolutely adore the “give it to me“ break. I’m like Nathan Jones, that climax leads to a perfect fade. But I think the verse, minus the intro, is boring or a dull something.

I wouldn’t have released either one as it is, but I understand why Nathan hit harder. I do think that if Miss Ross went on TV and worked surrender, it would’ve gone top 20/25.

Promotion can do just so much with unintelligible or pedestrian lyrics and limb song structure. Forced to choose, I would have to go with Nathan Jones.

[gman]

I never heard either Nathan Jones or Surrender on my AM top 40 station....yet they played Everybody's Got The Right To Love" [[sometimes even "instant replay")...and I'M STILL WAITING so much it wasn't till the internet age I found out neither one was a top 10 record...

[144man]

"Surrender" got to #10 in the UK, "Nathan Jones" #5. I can't think of any reason why anyone over here would have thought of comparing them at the time.

[sup_fan]

"Surrender" got to #10 in the UK, "Nathan Jones" #5. I can't think of any reason why anyone over here would have thought of comparing them at the time.

agree they're totally different songs but that's sort of the point of comparison as they were released in a very very short time period. two very different styles sounds and approaches from these two, hence the comparison. this is more of a "what's going on at the same time comparison" than two matching songs, like Mountain and ROIBT

[Jaap]

Like Luther Vandross, Sharleen Spiteri of the band Texas has mentioned "Surrender" as one of her favorite songs. Here she performs the song in 1999. Not as good as Ross, of course, but very well done and clearly a tribute:

[144man]

Re Sup Fan's Post #9

I don't think British fans were as confrontational as the American ones. It was all Motown. No Temptations v. Four Tops, for instance.

[BobbyC]

Surrender was lame

[mindful1]

Like Luther Vandross, Sharleen Spiteri of the band Texas has mentioned "Surrender" as one of her favorite songs. Here she performs the song in 1999. Not as good as Ross, of course, but very well done and clearly a tribute:

Amazing rendition!
Thanks for posting!

[RanRan79]

"Nathan Jones" was never a favorite of mine. Only in recent years have I really gained an appreciation for it. But I largely agree with the comments that have been made here over the last couple years about it needing just that little extra something to elevate it. I also wonder if it would have rated higher with people if it were Jean leading alone, rather than in unison. It will be interesting to learn- if we ever get an EE on Touch- if Jean was recorded alone and the others brought in to harmonize around Jean's lead, giving the impression of unison singing, rather than everybody around one mic, or however they might do it. Anyway, as is, the song went top 20 pop and top 10 r&b. Pretty good numbers.

"Surrender" had me hooked from the first time I played it. I happened on a copy of the Surrender album at a used record store about 20 years ago. I remember how excited I was to find it. [[If I remember correctly, that was an excellent shopping experience: I got Surrender, the TMITM album, LTISH album, An Evening With, Ross 78, and Supremes 75 all in one shopping stop.) I put the needle on the groove and "Surrender" wowed me from the intro to the fade. [[The whole album did. I still rank it as her best.)

I think the reason why it just scrapped into the top 40 is because it was a bit too hard for pop audiences who were used to a more toned down Diana Ross. "Surrender" is an R&B record through and through. No, that doesn't necessarily mean pop audiences would shun it. Look at Aretha's success. But I think the public was used to Ross a certain way. "Surrender" has her tearing through this song in a way that I don't think she had done on a single since "Let Me Go the Right Way". No surprise it went top 20 r&b, but I do think with more promotion on TV and such, it could've gone higher on both charts.

[RanRan79]

I think when "Louie, Louie" became a monster hit, it proved that audiences largely could care less about song lyrics.

[RanRan79]

Like Luther Vandross, Sharleen Spiteri of the band Texas has mentioned "Surrender" as one of her favorite songs. Here she performs the song in 1999. Not as good as Ross, of course, but very well done and clearly a tribute:

I was all set to diss this when she initially started singing, but she eventually understood the assignment, the musicians were on fire, and so were the background singers. Very well done cover. Thanks!

[captainjames]

I think when "Louie, Louie" became a monster hit, it proved that audiences largely could care less about song lyrics.

LOL...thats funny

[daviddh]

great cover
underrated Ross song
i loved both Surrender and NJ.
i think NJ could have been longer.....maybe a dance mix but finally got a dance mix on Surrender.

[sup_fan]

Re Sup Fan's Post #9.

Hehehe yes I did a TON of posts. There was so many posts regarding Diana and rage Grammies. Regardless of if she should/shouldn’t, could/couldn’t be there things were getting too hot. So figured time to try and shift people back to what really matters- the music

[danman869]

I'll pose a question on this topic: What would the results have been had The Supremes recorded "Surrender" and Diana Ross recorded "Nathan Jones" [and both were released as singles at that same time]?

I could hear the Jean-led Supremes singing "Surrender" [which would've been interesting because the group only ever recorded the Ashford and Simpson song, "Can't Get You Out Of My Mind" a year later in Fall 1971--and nothing else possibly yet-to-be released], but I'm not yet sure whether I could hear Diana singing "Nathan Jones." Maybe? In a way, it reminds me of "Last Time I Saw Him" in the sense of Diana singing about her man who's gone away. [Of course, those are two TOTALLY different songs--I'm just thinking of the subject matter.]

So, in the spirit of navel gazing, what do any of you think? The Supremes biting into the assertive nature of "Surrender"? Diana Ross singing about the man who's gone away?

[RanRan79]

I'll pose a question on this topic: What would the results have been had The Supremes recorded "Surrender" and Diana Ross recorded "Nathan Jones" [and both were released as singles at that same time]?

I could hear the Jean-led Supremes singing "Surrender" [which would've been interesting because the group only ever recorded the Ashford and Simpson song, "Can't Get You Out Of My Mind" a year later in Fall 1971--and nothing else possibly yet-to-be released], but I'm not yet sure whether I could hear Diana singing "Nathan Jones." Maybe? In a way, it reminds me of "Last Time I Saw Him" in the sense of Diana singing about her man who's gone away. [Of course, those are two TOTALLY different songs--I'm just thinking of the subject matter.]

So, in the spirit of navel gazing, what do any of you think? The Supremes biting into the assertive nature of "Surrender"? Diana Ross singing about the man who's gone away?

I think the switch could have worked. I can definitely hear Jean doing "Surrender". It's a bit harder to envision Diana doing "Nathan", only because when I hear NJ in my head, I hear the unison singing. But I guess Diana doubletracked would have worked. "Surrender" might have done better as a Supreme single. I'm not sure the-as-constructed NJ would have done any better in Ross' hands. I think Diana's version would have needed a bit of tweaking as well to do better.

[danman869]

I think the switch could have worked. I can definitely hear Jean doing "Surrender". It's a bit harder to envision Diana doing "Nathan", only because when I hear NJ in my head, I hear the unison singing. But I guess Diana doubletracked would have worked. "Surrender" might have done better as a Supreme single. I'm not sure the-as-constructed NJ would have done any better in Ross' hands. I think Diana's version would have needed a bit of tweaking as well to do better.

RanRan, I was thinking the exact same things [especially since posting my query]. I could definitely hear The Supremes [doing well] attempting "Surrender," but I keep hearing "Nathan Jones" as a unison/layered vocal and... I wasn't sure I could hear Diana singing it. You're probably right that NJ--in anyone's hands--likely still needed a little tweaking.

[Ollie9]

Both songs reached the top ten in the UK, so i always consider them big hits. It’s hard to understand why “Surrender” didn’t create as much of a splash in the USA. It certainly has all the right ingredients with a catchy chorus, sad story and rousing Diana Ross vocal. What more could one want.
Don't really here Diana singing “Nathan Jones”. “Up The Ladder To the Roof Perhaps.

[sup_fan]

I think the switch could have worked. I can definitely hear Jean doing "Surrender". It's a bit harder to envision Diana doing "Nathan", only because when I hear NJ in my head, I hear the unison singing. But I guess Diana doubletracked would have worked. "Surrender" might have done better as a Supreme single. I'm not sure the-as-constructed NJ would have done any better in Ross' hands. I think Diana's version would have needed a bit of tweaking as well to do better.

very interesting question. and yes, i can totally hear the Sups doing Surrender and Jean's fiery vocals.

with NJ, would the electronic phasing of Diana's vocals have worked? you run the risk of the song coming off as cold. maybe the 3 sup voices helped to balance this. while drastically different, the electronic gimmicked Lovin Livin Givin sort of shows how diana vocals need warmth. i think double tracking her vocals might have worked, and adding in backing vocals helps to not only fill things out but adds warmth. Both jean and diana have a nasal quality to their vocal tones so if the phasing worked ok on jean then it probably would have worked fine with diana

[Bluebrock]

Hehehe yes I did a TON of posts. There was so many posts regarding Diana and rage Grammies. Regardless of if she should/shouldn’t, could/couldn’t be there things were getting too hot. So figured time to try and shift people back to what really matters- the music

You did good Sup Fan. It looks like the one's who were causing all the drama have finally calmed down and realised there are far worse things going on in this wicked world we live in. The music is what brought us here in the first place. Thank you again for the support.

[Ollie9]

You did good Sup Fan. It looks like the one's who were causing all the drama have finally calmed down and realised there are far worse things going on in this wicked world we live in. The music is what brought us here in the first place. Thank you again for the support.

I beg to differ Bluebrock. Without wishing to beat on about it, there were plenty of fans who were left unhappy by what appeared to be complete indifference being shown to the Supremes legacy. To dismiss that as just making drama like naughty school children is rather patronising, no matter what is happening in the world.
I disagree that she owes us nothing, being it’s the fans that have made it possible for her to live a life beyond most of our wildest dreams. She has of course of course worked very hard for what she has achieved, but without fan support none of it would have been possible.
As a lifelong fan i certainly hope that all is well with her, and that there is some kind of news coming soon.

[Bluebrock]

I beg to differ Bluebrock. Without wishing to beat on about it, there were plenty of fans who were left unhappy by what appeared to be complete indifference being shown to the Supremes legacy. To dismiss that as just making drama like naughty school children is rather patronising, no matter what is happening in the world.
I disagree that she owes us nothing, being it’s the fans that have made it possible for her to live a life beyond most of our wildest dreams. She has of course of course worked very hard for what she has achieved, but without fan support none of it would have been possible.
As a lifelong fan i certainly hope that all is well with her, and that there is some kind of news coming soon.

I rather think her health and wellbeing is far more important to Miss Ross and her family than attending an awards ceremony Ollie.
However, i must say that had i been advising her i would have strongly recommended that the family issued a brief statement explaining how she was unable to attend due to far more pressing personal issues. That they did not do so was disappointing to me but perhaps understandable due to the sad circumstances which the family feel compelled to keep private at this particular time.
I respect their wishes without necessarily fully agreeing with them. .Hope you will also do so. Take care of yourself and if i came across as being patronising then i offer my sincere apologies to you.
May i also take this opportunity to thank members on here for the numerous private messages i have received regarding this situation. Thank you again.

[Ollie9]

I rather think her health and wellbeing is far more important to Miss Ross and her family than attending an awards ceremony Ollie.
However, i must say that had i been advising her i would have strongly recommended that the family issued a brief statement explaining how she was unable to attend due to far more pressing personal issues. That they did not do so was disappointing to me but perhaps understandable due to the sad circumstances which the family feel compelled to keep private at this particular time.
I respect their wishes without necessarily fully agreeing with them. .Hope you will also do so. Take care of yourself and if i came across as being patronising then i offer my sincere apologies to you.
May i also take this opportunity to thank members on here for the numerous private messages i have received regarding this situation. Thank you again.

If indeed it is ill health or a family crisis that prevented her from attending, i feel sure there isn't a single member on this forum who would not be sympathetic to her plight. Having said that, you can’t expect people to just assume. Are you saying that it’s definitely linked to her health or a family crisis?. Up until your post it’s just been speculation.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it, but i did find your reference to people causing drama a little unnecessary being everyone is entitled to express their opinion in a civilised way.
I would also like to thank the guys on SD who have given me so many notification thumbs up messages. Much appreciated.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I think both songs were good progressions in their sounds but neither really took hold and formulated their followups. Surrender with its Native American beat is captivating and continues the stronger vocals Ross had with her previous more successful single Remember Me [[a really great song). Surrender only made it to #38, I think the glut of albums released from her at the time didn't help-Surrender and Everything is Everything-without her promoting them since she was filming Lady Sings The Blues. Her vocals after Lady were successful as the music from the movies seemed to touch her vocals on Touch Me in the Morning, a successful #1 hit.
The Supremes with Nathan Jones came after Stoned Love, their biggest hit at #7. Nathan didn't continue that driving beat that Stoned had but it did have an interesting sound with the synthesizers and all three joining lead vocals with Jean pulled out slightly in the mix. It was an interesting and very good song. I heard Nathan Jones on the radio locally but not Surrender. Still, the mix reminded me of Everybody's Got The Right To Love, sort of muddy and muted-in some ways, it did feel unfinished. Still, it did very well going up to #16. However, if the mix maybe sounded slightly crisper it may have gone further. Touch was an album full of full bodied singing by Jean Terrell that the two singles did not highlight. Touch may have been the wrong followup single but it also had a very strange single mix, getting it to #71. Would a better mix or a different followup been better? It seems Motown was releasing too much material without much care. In between those two singles, Motown released another one by The Supremes and Four Tops-You Gotta Have Love in Your Heart, which also seemed like a sing song muddy and muted single and it only went to #55. Jean was a strong singer with an expressive voice-strange that Motown didn't release singles highlighting that rather the Everybody-Nathan-Gotta trio. Ross, on the other hand, was sounding more full bodied with tunes like Remember Me and Surrender, yet they also didn't seem to go as far as they should have. Perhaps, Motown didn't realize it was no longer the 1960's and having a glut of product out didn't guarantee success no matter who was releasing it.

[sup_fan]

the schizophrenic releases on both most certainly had a negative impact.

with Diana the poorly planned release schedule was a problem. it is also interesting the DR 70 only went top 20. that isn't back but for THE debut album of the biggest female singer, you'd think it would have gone higher. especially since radio was only using an edit of Mountain. that should have prompted people to go get the album for the full version. the lp was at least on the charts for a very long time. so odds are it still sold rather well.

the debut lp was at least a very well constructed set with wonderful songs. to then go to EIE was a real disappointment. not to mention just so out of line from a sound and approach perspective. supposedly Gordy was panicking that her debut single didn't sell well and got Deke moving on a more pop album. but Mountain was already a massive hit well before Waiting or EIE was readied. all of the Deke content simply should have been put on hold. Surrender should have been the follow up to Mountain as it also has an aura of greatness about it but is a totally different song and approach. then Remember would be the follow up to Surrender

with NJ, my guess is everyone was so hyped up and excited by this innovative new sound, that they rushed to release it. much like they rushed to release Ladder and Everybody. fortunately Ladder was perfect and ready to go. but Everybody needed to bake a while longer. they did take their time with SL - recording on it started in April prior to RO being released. but frank too his time and the quality shows. the NW album has more pop appeal than the Touch lp. Together We Can Make should have been the follow up to SL. you might even be able to get a third release with Thank Him. or maybe that would have been the time for the duets - released River and 1 lp with the best of the best cuts. Then release an updated/revised NJ in the fall and the Touch lp in time for the holidays. and perhaps the lp is just a 1-single album.

[reese]

with Diana the poorly planned release schedule was a problem. it is also interesting the DR 70 only went top 20. that isn't back but for THE debut album of the biggest female singer, you'd think it would have gone higher. especially since radio was only using an edit of Mountain. that should have prompted people to go get the album for the full version. the lp was at least on the charts for a very long time. so odds are it still sold rather well.

That's assuming that people actually knew the album featured a full-length version of ANMHE. I was only a kid at the time and had no purchasing power to speak of. But I didn't know there was a longer version until I heard it on the DIANA! soundtrack album. Plus the debut album didn't include song lengths on the back.

[johnjeb]

Like Luther Vandross, Sharleen Spiteri of the band Texas has mentioned "Surrender" as one of her favorite songs. Here she performs the song in 1999. Not as good as Ross, of course, but very well done and clearly a tribute:

I enjoyed this very much. Thanks for posting.

[sansradio]

I was all set to diss this when she initially started singing, but she eventually understood the assignment, the musicians were on fire, and so were the background singers. Very well done cover. Thanks!

Yep, she ate it! Very good.