I like the idea of combining the two albums.
I think Motown could of got some mileage out of the album with a second single
I like the idea of combining the two albums.
I think Motown could of got some mileage out of the album with a second single
I prefer HE to MSS, but neither album knocks me out. From HE I'll play "Walking", "Teardrops", "Energy" and "Missing" quite a bit. Sometimes I'll play "Moving On". I really love the tracks, especially the intro to "Boat", but it drags along and Mary's vocal is on the dull side.
On MSS, I'll play "Dream Machine", "Let Yourself Go", "Heart Of Me" and "Tied". Occasionally I'll play "Driving Wheel". I think song for song MSS might be the better album, but for whatever reason I just prefer HE.
The Supremes should've stuck to what made them, them: r&b/pop hybrid. Sweet melodies, grooving tracks, love found, love lost. I still say they should have looked more toward the Emotions for inspiration. The Supremes didn't need disco. I also don't think at this point that they needed an identifiable lead singer. Give Scherrie the more upbeat tunes, and let Mary and Susaye split the ballads and mid tempos.
"You Can't Stop A Girl" should've been the first single from the 75 album. Follow that with "Color My World" and then "You Turn Me Around", the latter of which I would remix by punching up the track just a tad, writing in a more memorable and exciting chorus, and having Mary re-record her lead and push her to give it more gusto.
From HE, "Walking" was a good move. I don't consider it disco, although it is a dance song. "High Energy" was another good move and should've been promoted like crazy as a single. "Teardrops" is definitely a winner. It should've had a single release.
From MSS, it's hard for me to argue against "Let Yourself Go" because I really love it, but if I'm advocating for non disco, then it must be a pass. So for me the only option is the beautiful "We Should Be Closer Together", although I have failed to really get into it. I chalk that up to my stupidity as opposed to there being something lacking in the song.
IMO this is really the only way the Supremes work during the Scherrie years. The Emotions, HOT, Alton McClain and Destiny, and even some Pointer Sisters material makes more sense than what a lot of what the group was putting out at the time.
Of course my previous post is wishful thinking. I really think the Supremes had run it's course. At this point they were almost assuredly destined to be seen as a group hanging on who need to hang it up, especially with the music they were recording. They were never, ever, gonna be Flo, Diana and Mary, and thus always working against itself. They would never have won the battle to be seen as a legit group in it's own right. That's why I believe it's possible that Mary made a huge mistake not going with Jean and Lynda elsewhere and starting a whole other group. [[I also am starting to think it may not have been that much of a mistake, considering Mary may have gone with Jean and Lynda and then at some point found herself replaced, since the three of them bumped heads quite a bit.) The Supremes name was an oldies act and it was time to look ahead.
I can't argue against anyone's opinion regarding Mary's voice, no more than I would argue Diana's or any other Supreme. It's all subjective. But I can never get behind the idea that Mary should've stayed and kept the group going. They were headed for FLOSville, so what would have been the point? Made more sense to leave and indulge in the pleasure of being a single artist. It was time to graduate and had Mary had better business sense and a team of qualified personnel surrounding her, she may very well have been the second most successful Supreme [[recording career wise) when it was all said and done.
i think if the Supremes had continued, they could even evolved what they did and schedules. just like Scherrie has done with the FLO's. there's still time for solo projects. they could explore other things and then come back to tours, events. and yes, eventually they'd most likely become an oldies act. Frankly so had diana. sure she's released some albums but nothing really serious since 2000 and even internationally, the hits are few and far between. even in the 90s. that's ok. people are still happy to come see her
and the same might have happened for the supremes. they could have done guest spots on tv shows, either together or solo. done smaller plays, jazz clubs. maybe each woman would have delved into a new music genre, explore.
The point is there could have been other options
With the final Supremes lineup we had three women who were all more then capable of singing lead. Sussaye added a great vocal dynamic to the group that complimented the other women’s [[particularly Mary’s) voices. For this reason alone I would have loved just one more album.
I wonder had “Let Yourself Go” been released as lead single and gone on to become a runaway hit, would Mary have decided to stick around a little longer?. Would Motown have suddenly become a lot more interested?. The eventual fate of the group might have proved very different.
I liked Susaye's voice but my friends hated it. One of them said she sounded like a screeching cat! I prefer Susaye in the background more than on lead. To my ears, Scherrie and Mary had good lead voices on the right material--but Susaye's voice really added some extra excitement to many of those tracks. I actually heard Let Yourself Go on the radio exactly once back then. Years ago Susaye told me she thought that song was too fast which sort of surprised me. I would be a lousy producer. A song like Let Yourself Go could be done so many different ways--how does one choose?
i wonder if she's maybe remembering their live rendition of LYG which was like a runaway train. plus with the choreography and gowns and stage lights, it's amazing one of them didn't suffer cardiac arrest right on the stage! lol
Motown was interested in the group again during Walking. with such as ham handed promotional campaign and strategy, it was on the charts a long time. was on fire in the clubs. so motown felt - ok maybe there IS still some interest in the group. with gays and discos and dance.
motown didn't really have a disco act at the time. Diana had just broken into that market with Hangover and labels like Casablanca were really getting hot. I'd guess that motown thought they could take an established brand like The Supremes and pretty easily take them into that market. rather than trying to build and develop something new.
I think Susaye was talking about the recorded version. She just thought it was a bit too fast. I never thought about it until then and yeah it does seem a bit frantic. Terrific lead by Scherrie--one of her best IMO.
But there would have been no more hits, so what would the point have been? If Mary kept the Supremes going, she's dividing money up between her and whatever two Supremes she's singing with. Mary basically has been doing, more or less, a FLOS act for the last 40 years, but at least whatever she makes, she gets to pocket herself, minus expenses. There are pros and cons to being in a group and being a single artist. By the time Mary bounced from the group, what exactly were the pros for her remaining? I really can't think of a single one.
The Supremes had outlived their life expectancy. Can you imagine the Beatles doing disco? At some point people go "what the fuck", shake their heads and look away out of pity. Motown, and by extension Mary, or the other way around, were draining the life out of the group. There was nothing left in that vein. Plus Mary was a bit older than Scherrie and Susaye, and with a family, Mary was on a different level. This wasn't the 60s when the three Supremes were all basically the same age with the same amount of life experience and pretty much on the same growth level...friends. I don't see MSS being the girlfriends like the originals. I could see Scherrie and Susaye with a lot in common with one another, with Mary the odd woman out. Who wants to live like that?
If I'm Motown, I retire the name, let Mary do her solo thing, add a third lady to Scherrie and Susaye and let nature take it's course.
Hits definitely make the lives of entertainers easier, so it's not a stretch to suspect that Mary would've stuck it out, even if just a bit longer, had "Let Yourself Go" taken off. However, it has to be pointed out that even with "Someday We'll Be Together" becoming a massive hit, Diana was like "fuck this shit, I'm out!" Of course her situation was a bit different because her exit had been in the plans for about two years. I think when MSS failed to chart anywhere, and then "Go" didn't make any waves outside of the clubs, Mary saw how this was going to go down and bounced. She would've been stupid to stay.
I'm not a fan of Susaye's lead voice either, although I'd have to be deaf not to recognize how talented she is. I find that she adds more to the backing vocals that gives those songs a certain sound they might have been missing for sometime. But she was more than capable of singing lead, and honestly, between her talent as a vocalist and her songwriting abilities, she probably never should've been a Supreme in the first place. She should have been out on her own.
That makes a lot of sense. It's difficult for me to believe there's any accuracy to the hypothesis, considering how dumb TPTB at Motown at the time appear to have been. I still disagree that the Supremes were the group to establish the label in disco. Maybe had they signed Scherrie as a solo artist...
i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lolol Now i do like the overall genre of disco. I think it makes some of the best dance music. but then again, i remember it when it was new too! lol
that's not to say that all disco music was excellent or of high quality. absolutely not. as time progressed, it become more and more mechanical and soulless. And even some of the more popular hits and music by quality artists was a bit disappointing. That's why i like the Supremes' stuff, especially MS&S. There's a legitimate effort to create melody with many of their songs. Walking, You keep me moving on, you're what's missing, Don't want to be tied down, let yourself go - although to be honest LYG is more just a feel-good dance tune. Each of these has some attempt at some pretty decent verses and choruses, utilizing some strong backup vocals too. IMO they're not just mindless thumping of the bass beat.
Disco was slandered by white midwest men that felt threatened by this burgeoning music that came from the blacks and gays. And disco didn't help itself by becoming so mainstream that you had parents in Peoria learning to hustle and heading to a local disco. And some of the music frankly was garbage. But there's junk in any and all musical genres too
The Supremes did very well in the disco market [[ IGLMHDTW =#3, HIGH ENERGY=#9, MS&S=#5) and were embraced in the clubs. As were the J5 , Eddie Kendricks, The Originals ....
The pop and soul markets were both resisting disco and therefore weren't looking for yet more disco to have to program , even though it was at the cost of not continuing to support the beloved Supremes .
Susaye is most certainly one of the most talented, vocally, of the supremes. she does have a very unique tone and sound quality. it's an unusual tone and maybe not quite to everyone's liking. but damn - that woman was talented. I just don't know that there was really sufficient time for the producers and her to get into a rhythm. although they clearly did find ingenious ways to leverage her abilities.
ear candy - this was totally new for the Sups sound. her ad libs and extras on Walking, Wheel, the ending of Sweet Dream Machine.
Come into my life - Obviously HE and Walking weren't written with her in mind. I'd like to think that Come Into My Life was. it's very interesting how they segue her vocals into the synthesizer.
new and different approaches to background - on the LYG EE set, there's the unreleased version of I Don't Want to Lose You where Susaye adds much more bg vocals. Then they used her to do the soprano echo part on We Should Be Closer
there's a little thing that i just love on Sweet Dream. during Susaye's verse, it's so subtle you'll easily miss it. she sings "You take me high, you take me low." on the word High, she does a slide DOWN. and then on Low, she flips her voice UP! it's just those little things that help display her amazing talents
we've talked plenty about how the live shows for MSS were a mess. For the Susaye solo, they simply pulled old songs out of their set list like He Aint Heavy and People. Both were old songs jean did. By the end, she was doing that stevie song. But they didn't really let her showcase on a piece that's just perfect for her
like this song. I've never liked this song really but DAMN!!! this is just a stunning performance and shows what could have been done
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjGRP5nXDtw
Absolutely. The writing was on the wall. I thought that Mary’s solo album would be a continuation of the excellent material she had performed on the last two Supremes albums. She was really coming into her own during that period and had grown in confidence when singing leads. How wrong can you be lol......Huge shame.
exactly. that 79 album wasn't Red Hot but rather a Hot Mess. lol
still the 4 Gus songs do definitely show that, given the right material, she was more than just a ballad singer. I wonder if she'd done something more like Martha's solo debut for MCA. something a bit more rock and roll and blues rather than disco and fast. I could hear her doing Storm in my Soul and her Save Me is excellent.
correct. the Supremes were a bit ahead of the general public accepting disco. sure there had been hits in 74, 75 and 76, but it didn't super explode all over until late 77 with Saturday Night Fever. after that movie, you then had discos popping up in every city and radio stations completely dropping their old formats and going all disco.
Sup_fan I must take issue with your comment that mid western white guys were threatened by music by gays and blacks. That is not how i remember it at all. While it is true that the mid west was mostly white rock. When disco first got popular, almost nobody had a problem with it. People loved going to clubs and Sat Night Fever was the biggest movie soundtrack in the world. In about a two year period, which is really brief when you think about it, suddenly EVERYTHING was disco. It was too much. The music went so downhill, so quickly, with songs like Funky Town. Suddenly this underground cool music was formulaic, cold and repetitive. On top of that, people like me who loved slightly older black artists like Labelle and Earth Wind and Fire, weren't hearing these groups anymore. They tried to make disco records but most bombed. The Motown groups were mostly over. On top of all these things, the rock music that mid western guys loved vanished! Suddenly their heroes like Rod Stewart and The Stones were making thumper music and everybody was like what in the hell happened? That's when the backlash started. It was too much, too fast. And gay people never even entered the mix. Back then the subject was so taboo, so dirty, that people pretended that gay men didn't exist--they knew almost nothing about gay life and would prefer to know less. I remember it very clearly.
And even when playing disco 24/7 those stations couldn't play it all. It was crazy, the amount of output , until it imploded.
Pop, Top 40 stations were trying to remain well rounded , not wanting to feature too much of any one sound over another because they wanted to attract as broad a listening audience as they could. That was part of the appeal, and that meant rationing all types of music, country, soul , rock and now this newcomer, 'disco' .
The black stations also felt encroached upon because a) they were "losing" some of their familiar acts to this overly specific dance oriented sound [[ ie The Supremes is a great example , The Emotions , EW&F) and incorporating disco meant programming a sound that made it harder to maintain a black format : disco was colorless.
Last edited by Boogiedown; 06-05-2020 at 03:43 PM.
I do agree, though almost any other genre of music would have been better suited to her style of voice then the dreaded disco. I still hold with the theory it was sabotage lol. The Pointer Sisters had an album out in 79 named Priority. Almost every song on it might have been perfect for Mary...
appreciate your reply and i was probably too broad in my comment. But there definitely was a homophobic response to disco. along with racist and sexist attitudes too. both within the industry and within the general public. there are a lot of theories as to why and one is definitely right in line with your comments. Disco became it's own worst enemy - too much, too fast, deterioration in quality. when it sort of took over everything and pushed most of the other genres out, people started to react against it.
a year or two ago, i read a very interesting book on the subject. quite an interesting read
https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Stuff-Rem...t%2C184&sr=1-1
oh yes , much of the masses loved 'disco' ... , they really did, and much to the chagrin of the rockin' and rollin' haters ....
.....until they found out !!
Ollie--Priority is one of my all time favorite albums. Who Do Ya Love?
I never heard of that book before but I'll probably get it. Thanks for the tip. Back in the 70's where I grew up outside of Niagara Falls, gay people were never even mentioned. It was completely taboo. I remember the subject came up exactly once with my grandmother. She told me one day that the guy who cut/styled her hair was "funny." She said it in a sombre, hushed tone which led me to believe we were talking about something dark and evil. I was a kid and didn't understand, really, but believe me I learned quickly no to bring it up ever again. Hard to believe by today's standards, but I remember it. It was terrible
Love Priority! It’s one of my favorite Pointer Sisters albums.
And I agree ... there are songs on that album that would be perfect for Mary‘s voice.
oh yes - the hushed tones. like when they told you someone had *cancer*. they lean in closer and sort of whisper it. like saying the word aloud might smite and stricken you with said affliction!
You do bring up a valid point though. outside of the metropolises, people might not have immediately caught onto the idea that the gays were one of the early disco audiences. other than that random "funny" hairdresser or florist. or that peculiar uncle/aunt, you're right that it wasn't spoken of.
Or if they suspected they ignored it.
You know Sup, I had a friend in the 80's who told me he had "two uncles." These uncles were much older than we were, and they bought two seperate houses right next to each other in Florence Texas. Neither married, they were inseparable and basically farmed their mutual properties for 60 years. But nobody talked about it but people seemed to accept them. Anyway I guess I've veered off topic.
I am learning that you just have to overlook some of the things these guys say. I have known about the Supremes since before they had their first number one on through to when Mary went solo and the group disbanded. I knew of them in real-time and not from reading books years and years later. Yes, both Mary and Scherrie are the same age and were born in 1944.
"i guess we'll have to agree to disagree lolol"...So what else is new?
I love the genre of disco. So much music to love IMO. I don't care for what I call the electronic disco, stuff like "I Feel Love" or "Livin, Lovin, Givin". It feels too mechanized and stale rather than utilizing great musicians, maybe combined with a bit of new artificial sounds. There was still quite a bit of soul to disco IMO. So my critique of the Supremes being paired with disco has everything to do with the Supremes' brand and nothing to do with the genre itself. I'll believe in the public accepting disco Supremes as much as I believe they would have accepted disco Beach Boys. When you're as HUGE and iconic as the Supremes, Beach Boys, Elvis, you really can't stray too far away from your brand. Couple that with the general public largely believing the Supremes ceased to exist somewhere around 1971, and not feeling any connection to three nameless, faceless, new Supremes [[even though one was an original), disco Supremes really didn't have a chance in hell. R&B/Pop Supremes was where the money is.
Had Motown really, and I mean really, been in her corner, that's exactly what would have happened. Mary had no business singing most of the songs that made up her album. The only cut from that album that I play regularly is "Pick Up the Pieces", as that is exactly the type of music I would've wanted from Mary Wilson at the time, a nice, slow, sexy cut. She plays that role so well and for Motown not to capitalize on it is ludicrous.
While I agree that the cuts on Priority were a better fit for Mary than most of what ended up on her debut album, this would not have been the direction for her IMO. [[Personally, as a HUGE Pointers fan, Priority is maybe the one album where my attention isn't captured, possibly aside from the fantastic "She's Got the Fever".) I would've liked to have heard Mary doing stuff like Phyllis Hyman's Somewhere In My Lifetime album, minus the dance stuff. Or Brenda Russell's first album.
I didn't realize Scherrie was that close in age to Mary! Mary [[and Cindy when she was singing with Scherrie) looks so much like the elder statesman of the group, I never would've guessed Scherrie was basically the same age as Mary. Thanks for the correction. Still my point stands that it seems like Scherrie and Susaye paired up. Mary was the odd woman out. She hadn't had an ally since Cindy.
Ran Ran--you really didn't like Priority? Wow--I loved it! Loved Energy too!
I love RanRan's posts.
It’s a really solid album Bobby that has stood the test of time. Though essentially a light rock orientated set, it has a bluesy feel to it. Favourite songs, “Dreaming As One” [[Stunning ballad) and “She’s Got The Fever”. Something like this album with a few more ballads thrown in would have been perfect for Mary. That debut album was the worst mistake of her career..........alas.
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