They said that because Mary Wilson had 2 babies between 1977-79 that was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:
https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...ry+Wilson+1977
Last edited by marv2; 11-08-2019 at 09:36 PM.
They are full of sh*t here. Here's a thread from here that have people saying Mary Wilson having 2 babies and a toddler during the years 1977-79 was no excuse for her not working more on her career during those years:
https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...ry+Wilson+1977
No.
Marvin left the label in humongous debt but apparently the Motown exit [[and later Larkin Arnold's Columbia contract stipulations were set to straighten out the debt, which wasn't broadcast for public exposure in fear it would backfire on Marvin's comeback).
The Jackson 5 had to tour more often than they should have because Joe didn't read the parts where Motown would own their name and that they only received 2.7% royalties from their work.
Mary Wells, we know what happened to her after she left Motown.
DeBarge had to sign away their full rights to leave. Only El gets paid more via songwriting royalties from their songs, least in comparison to Randy and Bunny. And none of them wrote their biggest hit, "Rhythm of the Night".
The only one who could've left with a clean slate by this point was Stevie but he's chosen to stay. Lionel and Smokey wrote virtually all of their big hits so they were and remain set.
Last edited by midnightman; 11-09-2019 at 10:24 PM.
Berry had each act sign with the same royalty rate, one of the lowest in the business and this was in an era when folks signed for peanuts and quick money. So the Supremes got the same type of contract EVERY other Motown artist signed. Meaning if their records sold extremely well, they would only receive less than $10k apiece.
Financial gain aside, i think you have probably hit the proverbial nail on the head.
i do question her musicality at the time if she really considered those first two rca albums well produced. To anyone with an ear for music the production was clearly lacking. Was it a question of it's not great but put it out anyway or did she truly believe she had done a great job?.
Diana is a wonderful singer and can interpret a song like no other. Having said that i think she lacks a natural musical instinct that a producer has to have.
I honestly don't know if she thought she had done a good job on those two albums. I suspect not but both rca and her wanted to deliver an album asap to cash in on the Chic album and of course Endless Love. Quincy was not yet available and it would have been very difficult to hire a top notch producer on such short notice.
Had wdffil flopped she may well have called on Quincy or even Michael Jackson to oversee the follow up , but because it was a success she pressed ahead and produced another remarkably unremarkable album. What more is there to say?
Ashford and Simpson? They could have helped with good songs, cohesion and pop crossover dreams. It wasn't strictly the production with the RCA albums. The songs were either subpar or a poor fit for Ross. So much so that when she did finally utilize solid producers -- Gary Katz, Ray Parker Jr., etc. -- the end-product still underwhelmed.
I applaud the effort of our fellow SD-ers who tried to refashion a different
RCA debut from the entirety of her RCA catalog. If I compiled my favorite RCA tracks I would know immediately that it was not a hit album.
Nothing she did at RCA is an appropriate follow-up to those fireworks set off by Chic, A&S and Michael Masser at the end of her Motown days. There were some enjoyable moments but unworthy of her stature in the industry. The concert setlist of the last 20 years is her own acknowledgment of this.
Cashbox and Record World had larger sales components than Billboard who relied more on radio play than the other two
When Taraborelli re wrote Call Her Miss Ross he deleted all his sales information. I’ve always wondered if he found out it was unreliable
I would say there there are a sprinkling of songs that were as good as anything she recorded at motown Guy. "Muscles", "Missing You", "Chain Reaction", "Summertime" to name but four. Enough to Fill an album. Considering the seven year time period it's really nothing to applaud.
Or he could have been threatened with Legal Action.
Apparently he had been supplied with many figures by an insider at Motown.
They may very well be unreliable but my personal hunch is that they were correct. Unless someone was very clever and took a long time to compile them because they stand up to scrutiny relative to each other.
However, no way of knowing you have to decide for yourself.
That's the reason I usually give. She was trying to compete with the girls who wished they could be her. What a shame. The lady has always been competitive, but you would think at that point in her life she'd be past trying to compete and just be herself. Most of that RCA stuff was not artistically Diana. It was Diana trying to make a buck and the music suffered.
Thanks Reese. That's the one.
With the exception of Diana coming into the song too early during a part, I thought her performance here was pretty good. It's actually the reason I started liking the song. I liked the video as a kid, but as an adult I thought the song was stupid until I saw her do it live.
But the fact that she was doing songs from two albums that were no longer worth promoting [[I'm sure there's a certain amount of logic here, that no matter how much time has passed, promoting an album may still result in some additional sales which equals a few extra dollars) makes no sense. I kind'a get "Eaten Alive" as that was the last song to that point that a large percentage of the audience and viewing audience probably remembered from her, but "Touch By Touch"? Why not "Missing You"? Or even "Swept Away"? Hell, if she wanted to further promote the EA album, why not do "Chain Reaction"? Or she could have done a big hit from the year if that artist wasn't at the ceremony.
I think "Mirror, Mirror" was as good as the Chic stuff, and it resonated with the public because it was hip and a good fit. Of course I cannot explain how "Fools" the single became a hit, other than suggesting that for the first single Diana could've done anything and the public would've ate it up. "Mirror", the track to "Work That Body" [[not to be confused with the lyrics to "Work That Body"), "Swept Away", "Missing You" and even "Chain Reaction" were worthy of Ross' talents. She needed more hits that were worthy and she needed full albums that were worthy. She lucked up on a few worthy singles here and there but just never cut anything like the 1970 debut, Surrender, TMITM, the Hangover album, BIM, The Boss or the Chic album, all bonafide classics. Her RCA albums will never be spoken about like those Motown ones because the qualities of the two sets are ridiculously set too far apart.
I was baffled by the choice of TOUCH BY TOUCH as an opening number for the 1987 AMAs as well, even though I enjoyed the performance. But she didn't have a current album to promote. EATEN ALIVE was more than a year old at that point and she had already performed the title track as well as CHAIN REACTION at the previous year's ceremony when they were still recent releases. The MISSING YOU video was shown the year before that.
I do think it was nice for the 1987 awards that she did a group of Billie Holiday songs, even though I think the segment went a tad too long. Maybe a nice Supremes medley could have opened the show that year.
Last edited by reese; 11-11-2019 at 09:59 AM.
I am going to have to disagree, Ollie9. I am not talking about the Motown filler. Nothing she recorded at RCA is the equal of the finest moments at Motown. Nothing.
She had enjoyable moments at RCA. I love "Telephone" but it is not the equal of "The Boss." "Summertime" is no more exquisite than "Friend To Friend" or "Do You Know Where You're Going To." "Muscles" can't compete with "Love Hangover."
Her best moments at RCA were those that were vaguely reminiscent of her Motown output [["Let's Go Up", "Missing You", etc.) Her worst moments were when she was trying to be someone other than Diana Ross [[ "Fool For Your Love", "We Are The Children...", etc.)
IMO "Mirror, Mirror", "Swept Away", and "Missing You" was better than "Reach Out I'll Be There", "My Mistake", "Last Time I Saw Him", "Theme From Mahogany" [[a song I LOATH), "Your Love Is So Good For Me", and "One More Chance". As fantastic as Diana's Motown tenure was, let us not forget she didn't always lay golden eggs. Some of that stuff stunk too. [[Not that all the songs I listed "stink", but I do believe my fav RCA cuts are better overall songs than the Motown singles I just listed.)
Believe it or not, I actually love "Fool For Your Love", but that's in spite of the fact that it was not a direction Ross needed to be moving into. But I do love that it further illustrated her ability to sing it all.
LOL Come on now. You gotta like me even when you think I make no sense.
Well first you have to consider that I am not a fan of the Chic sound for anyone, although I concede that commercially it worked for Diana. But "Mirror, Mirror" has a great lyric, a great chorus, the track is funky, which is exactly where Ross needed to be after what she had done with Chic. Yeah, "Mirror, Mirror" isn't second rate. It's the first first rate thing she did at RCA. Unfortunately she rarely duplicated it.
Well, I'll just note that even though "Mirror, Mirror" was a top 10 pop hit and "The Boss" was not, you rarely hear MM in her live show but she ALWAYS includes "The Boss." As for "Swept Away" -- I have never heard her sing that in 30 years of live performances. "Missing You" is lovely and was used in a recent-ish tour as a Motown and MJ tribute. But I've not heard it in while.
Of course, not every Motown track was great. But all of her magical moments as a recording artist were at Motown. I happen to think "Reach Out, I'll Be There" is one. Her vocal is wonderful and those background vocals are on fire. She loves it, too. She brought it back for the ill-fated "Return To Love" tour. And it was one of many high points of her 2004 "comeback" show at the Pantages Theatre in Hollywood.
The only proof we need that the RCA years are better left to history is that she doesn't consistently sing anything from that period except WDFFIL. She has only occasionally sung "Missing You" or "Chain Reaction" but otherwise her setlist is strictly Motown...and some of that "I Love You" mess.
P.S. I've noted for the official record that "Fool For Your Love" does not make YOUR ears bleed -- and that Florence likes "Shockwaves."
Mirror mirror was always a part of her shows up until the 2000’s. Then she dropped it. I believe she sang it this year at her birthday gig. Missing you was also always in her act. She only sometimes does it now. Those 2 plus fools were the guaranteed RCA songs she would sing.
Last edited by khansperac; 11-11-2019 at 05:40 PM.
Many of the RCA songs like MIRROR, MIRROR, CHAIN REACTION, and MISSING YOU were dropped when her show's running length became shorter. Ditto for ENDLESS LOVE and most numbers from LADY besides DON'T EXPLAIN.
I also think she does the songs that accommodate her current register. The last time I heard her sing MIRROR MIRROR, MISSING YOU, and ENDLESS LOVE in concert, I noticed the keys were lower.
I would add "Telephone" "More And More" and "Love Will Make It Right to songs that i think stand up well to many of her motown recordings.
I disagree in that i find "Summertime" as exquisite as many of her motown classics and "Telephone" as good as any of the songs on the diana album.
Worst songs for me are the vanilla pop confections as in "Anywhere You Run To", "Never To Late" "Two Can Make It" "Children".....Aghhhh.
Last edited by Ollie9; 11-12-2019 at 05:52 AM.
Perhaps, but that can't be used as evidence of those RCA songs being deemed of less quality than her Motown songs. Those songs have been in her act since leaving RCA. When's the last time she did "Someday We'll Be Together"? Or "Surrender"? Or "I Thought It Took A Little"? And certainly none of those songs are of any less quality than stuff like "I Will Survive" which Diana performs as if she was the one who had a hit with it. I think her RCA period is often left for the history books as opposed to Diana's shows because we fans generally regard the music as forgettable. As I said before, most of it was second rate- some even third rate- to most of what she recorded at Motown. But for me there are exceptions to that rule.
I absolutely agree about "Reach Out I'll Be There". One of Diana's finest vocal performances. Maybe I should've left it off the list because I can see how my opinion of it might have been confusing, but it was on the list because it was a horrible choice as a single, unlike the songs I highlighted at RCA which were perfect choices. As for the magic of Ross, I guess when one hears the magic it's always a subjective time. Those songs I mentioned as being A quality RCA cuts, IMO, can't be quality unless Diana's magic is present. That's key to me loving any Ross song, regardless of record label.
Add me in for "Shockwaves" also Guy.
The rearrangement of ROIBT fits what Luther did with his covers so that is no surprise to me at all. It is one of Diana's greatest recordings as a solo artist! It deserves to be as big of a hit as ANMHE was. Motown dropped the ball on this. Should've been way up than it was.
You are most welcome Guy. I am sure Luther would have produced a strong album on Diana. He had a couple of classic songs in mind for her to cover but i cannot recall what they were without consulting my diaries which are currently stored away. He also intended to include a duet between the two legends. It is so frustrating that she was having none of it. You only need to listen to the beautiful "it's hard for me to say" to get a glimpse of what sweet music they could have made together.
In the end it's all a matter of personal taste.
Yes, the Motown albums on the whole performed better than the RCA output but give me Silk Electric, Swept Away or Eaten Alive any time over many of the Motown ones such as diana.
I loved Upside Down and My Old Piano but the other tracks did little for me even I'm Coming Out - I just the thought the melody was off-key.
I know this is a minority view.
I'm one of the UK public who loved her ballads such as Still In Love, Love Lies or In Your Arms from Silk Electric for example.
EMI in the UK missed some golden opportunities to capitalise on several surefire hits during the 70s.
Had Eaten Alive been the follow up to WDFFIL i think Diana would have scored some hits from the album.
She lost one hell of a lot of momentum following the release of Silk Electric. Everyone i knew at the time thought it awful and the reviews were terrible [[UK). Had it not been for "Muscles" the whole thing would have been a disaster. The album sold quite well simply because Diana was at the peak of her popularity.
I think Luther was probably too much of an R&B artist for DR. Luther was good in his musical lane but did not have the same crossover success as Ross did. I've always viewed Ross as a R&B/Pop hybrid star and recording artist, not pure pop and not a typical R&B artist. There were certain producers who could straddle that line when producing Ross, most specifically Ashford & Simpson. I think Diana Ross has shined the most on songs that make you either want to dance to or sing along to- lead or background. I'm not sure that Luther would have been able to do that for Ross.
It's Hard for Me to say but I divaly disagree with you on this point.
An album by DR, produced by Luther would have been a delight.
I am grateful for the few gems Luther was involved with DR.
Just imagine a duets album, "Luther and Diana"!
I guess a road to divaville never led to hitsville!
Flo i'm gonna echo Bluebrock's comments. your thoughts here are so interesting. please keep sharing!
I do find her early rca material to be enjoyable. maybe not meeting the lofty standards associated with her final motown content but i don't find WDFFIL and SE to be hideous.
As for diana 80, i enjoy that album a lot and do appreciate the urban sound they achieved. some list it as a DR masterpiece and i would NOT go that far at all. Her performances are fine but no where near the vocal quality and interpretation she did on either Baby It's Me or The Boss. I have diana 80 to be a masterful, calculated move but not an artistic one
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