Mary Wilson: June 13, 1977 - August 27, 1979

[Bluebrock]

Due to me? You mean due to you and your buddies. I always support and honor Mary. If there is any crapping done in a Mary Wilson thread it's by you because you cannot stand that I do not like Diana Ross at all!

And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

[marv2]

And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

No, that would not be accurate or truthful. I do not care at all if you cannot stand Mary or not. It's your preference. I don't like Diane..ever!

[midnightman]

K, guys, we're having a great discussion, don't mess it up lol...

I should be a mod here LOL

I'm watching y'all...

[RanRan79]

Sounds believable. And there was the other time when she couldn't come to terms and also wound up with nothing.

I don't believe anyone is buying that Mary talked to a bunch of labels and couldn't come to terms. If anything, that scenario makes Mary look bad. It makes her look like an idiot who couldn't figure out how to negotiate a deal. And let's not kid ourselves, love her as we do, but this is Mary Wilson, not Diana Ross. What the hell was there for her to negotiate? Unless every contract had crazy stipulations like Mary had to sign over her first born or she had to undergo medicinal experiments or she had to perform a concert on the moon, there really was nothing for her to turn down. If the label was going to pay her and help her put out an album, what was the problem?

[RanRan79]

Something tells me Mary's confidence wasn't so high even when she released Dreamgirl because the music industry had changed so much from when she was 16. Now she was 42. Time was definitely running out but she could've went into a freestyle/R&B/urban contemporary sound similar to Vanessa Williams and Mel'isa Morgan that year. She had the look and voice for it, just needed a label and the sound so she could finally be MARY WILSON, you know? Instead of "oh that's just Diana Ross' singing partner". Even Florence Ballard post-mortem has been seen as FLORENCE BALLARD, the group's founder. Mary, however, "oh just a background singer" to the mainstream. That has to suck because she was more capable than that, way more.

Definitely agree on how the public views each Supreme. I don't know if I buy that her confidence around Dreamgirl was still low. When she performs during that time, I don't see or hear a woman who second guesses her abilities. I think at that point she had tunnel vision. She did the book, it was a phenomenal success, but I don't think she really thought about how to parlay that success into a music career. I bet you that once the first book hit, she immediately started thinking about the second book. And of course the second book was definitely a good move, but again, what about the music? Just seems like missed opportunities to me.

[RanRan79]

I doubt Mary is bothered these days. She feels satisfied with where her legacy is at. She's a Rock and Roll Hall of Famer. That's enough for her.

I agree. She's a grandmother now and, like Diana, she's at a point in her life when there's no crying over spilled milk. Mary has done more than most of her peers in the industry, and for far longer too. We fans probably make more of these kinds of things than the artists do at this point.

[RanRan79]

K, guys, we're having a great discussion, don't mess it up lol...

I should be a mod here LOL

I'm watching y'all...

You and that gif!! You gotta do one of Florence.

[midnightman]

You and that gif!! You gotta do one of Florence.

Haha, I got a good Flo gif from this too.

[midnightman]

Definitely agree on how the public views each Supreme. I don't know if I buy that her confidence around Dreamgirl was still low. When she performs during that time, I don't see or hear a woman who second guesses her abilities. I think at that point she had tunnel vision. She did the book, it was a phenomenal success, but I don't think she really thought about how to parlay that success into a music career. I bet you that once the first book hit, she immediately started thinking about the second book. And of course the second book was definitely a good move, but again, what about the music? Just seems like missed opportunities to me.

Right. You'd think she'd be able to make music waves like Tina Turner did [[though she released her first memoirs after re-establishing herself so maybe that's not a good comparison?). But yeah I agree that Mary was thinking about books than music. She had mentioned writing a "part 2" during promotion of the Dreamgirl book.

[midnightman]

I agree. She's a grandmother now and, like Diana, she's at a point in her life when there's no crying over spilled milk. Mary has done more than most of her peers in the industry, and for far longer too. We fans probably make more of these kinds of things than the artists do at this point.

Plus, she's living very comfortably in Vegas. And yeah some fans are stuck in the '60s/'70s like the issues that were mentioned wasn't 50 years old already. It's great to reminisce but yeah.

[Bluebrock]

I don't believe anyone is buying that Mary talked to a bunch of labels and couldn't come to terms. If anything, that scenario makes Mary look bad. It makes her look like an idiot who couldn't figure out how to negotiate a deal. And let's not kid ourselves, love her as we do, but this is Mary Wilson, not Diana Ross. What the hell was there for her to negotiate? Unless every contract had crazy stipulations like Mary had to sign over her first born or she had to undergo medicinal experiments or she had to perform a concert on the moon, there really was nothing for her to turn down. If the label was going to pay her and help her put out an album, what was the problem?

Good post. I find it hard to believe she turned down many if any offers of a recording contract. I am sure she would have taken pretty much any offer on board. It is more likely that no-one was willing to take a chance on her. Her voice does not lend itself well on pop or r&b tunes. She is better suited to jazzy numbers and standards . A cabaret singer maybe, but an r&b diva ? No way.

[sup_fan]

everyone needs a certain level of self awareness. dream vs reality. sure she was blessed and fortunate to be part of the Supremes but everyone knows nothing lasts forever. and after a certain amount of banging your head against the wall, you should realize that a career as a pop singer has either come & gone and a solo opportunity isn't going to arise.

and maybe she did come to this conclusion. After the little bit in Sup Faith about signing with a few labels in the early 80s, it doesn't sound like she did much with any other potential deals. except that little bit she did with Nightmare.

But she could have also focused on doing session work, developing a reputation in another genre like jazz, cabaret work, stage work, education, etc. And there was the oldies circuit which she was heavily involved with. I'm not personally aware of what she did or didn't do to diversify and find other opportunities. maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

I do think she probably should have reconsidered the opportunity to join the FLO's. i doubt anyone would have demanded that she devote herself 24/7 to that group - they didn't have so many gigs and recording demands that she couldn't have continued some of her solo work. and basically during this time she was still living off the Sups name and touring as a former Supreme. I've always wondered if there was still angst between her and Lynda that really prevented this

[RanRan79]

Right. You'd think she'd be able to make music waves like Tina Turner did [[though she released her first memoirs after re-establishing herself so maybe that's not a good comparison?). But yeah I agree that Mary was thinking about books than music. She had mentioned writing a "part 2" during promotion of the Dreamgirl book.

Tina was a once in a lifetime story, I think. Mary was never going to make those kind of waves, Dreamgirl or no Dreamgirl. A lot of the music business is pure luck vs many other factors, but I do think most of the HUGE artists of our lifetimes were uniquely talented in someway. I think Mary was/is a gifted vocalist, gorgeous, charismatic, great stage presence. But uniquely talented...I wouldn't say that. She could've made a label some nice money, but she wasn't ever going to do a Tina Turner. Lol [[And I say that as someone who prefers Mary's voice to Tina's.)

[midnightman]

Tina was that artist that was driven and determined to get to where she got to and didn't kiss butt to do it [[honestly why didn't VH-1 do a "Driven" type documentary for her first post-Ike years?!?!).

Mary was already looked as a Motown legend.

[sup_fan]

also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

[midnightman]

That's true lol

She WAS the star of the show as well.

But I do think in terms of background singers of vocal groups, Mary has become one of the most famous, if not the most famous.

[jobeterob]

That's true lol

She WAS the star of the show as well.

But I do think in terms of background singers of vocal groups, Mary has become one of the most famous, if not the most famous.

I think that’s true

She’s pretty much treated as on a par with Martha Reeves

[gman]

Walk the Line was a great, modern up to date sounding song....the record company filed Bankruptcy the day after it was released. That was a very bad blow...that CD was a far better display of Mary's abilities than the '79 LP. I was never nuts about RED HOT till I saw Mary perform it live in the mid 80's...she really worked the song. I later got the 12" single....that is the arrangement she was using live.....much better flow than the LP version....and a fire red outfit, be it a gown, balloon dress or mini skirt [[saw her do it in all 3) added to the performance. Red Hot and Warm Summer Night are the only 2 songs I consider very good on that LP...You Danced My Heart was a show stopper...too bad it wasn't released at the time...and Ian Levine's Don't Get Mad Get Even is one of the best recordings in the entire Motorcity project catalogue.

[jobeterob]

And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

How about we don’t like negative mean spirited people

Mary Wilson and Diana Ross don’t fit that Description but which poster do you think would fit that description?

[PeaceNHarmony]

also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

Not to mention that Tina is/was a once-in-a-lifetime singer and dancer as well as force of nature.

[RanRan79]

also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

Although a few of the Ikettes did land solo record deals, so another great example of that.

[luke]

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

Yes, it was not like she did nothing but I believe Motown may have made her very wary and probably she was reluctant to just be recording like she did with Motown. Still, Bogart passed away and Atlantic did not pan out. I remember seeing her on Good Morning America when Walk The Line came out and they even said she was widely quoted for wanting a recording deal and she laughed "I was begging". Her stint on Arsenio singing Walk The Line should have peaked some interest after CEO folded and I remember her singing Bad Case Of Lovin You on Rick Dees and he was quite complimentary. I think in negotiating perhaps the two sides couldn't come to terms with both being a legend and a new soloist but I am sure there are those on here who know far more than I and that will r*d#ly say so

[RanRan79]

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

We discuss the Atlantic demos [[I think there were four). I recall Mary writing about meeting with Bogart but had forgotten the details. I also recall some folks questioning the truth of Mary's story. I just finally pulled Mary's book out to read exactly what she wrote about the Neil Bogart situation. I don't doubt her story. She may have padded it a bit with Neil's promise to make her a huge star, but I believe her when she says she was days away from signing when he passed away.

She also writes this, which is very interesting: "I met with various label executives, once even auditioning for Merv Griffin's new record company, but no luck." Prior to this statement she talks about having the Gus Dudgeon masters and how the industry had changed in a way that a singer needed a finished product in order to get a contract. So I wonder how much of the "no's" she received had to do with the demos she might have been shopping around? Many of us agree that the songs are great, Mary sounds great, and a full album of Gus' productions could have been a turning point for her post Supremes career. But the music business always was tough on Black women and feeling the need to place them in a box. Those Dudgeon songs are mostly very pop sounding. Perhaps the labels didn't want a pop singing Black woman? What if Mary had shopped around demos that had a more r&b sound to them, what might the reaction have been?

Just throwing some stuff out there. Ultimately none of us will ever know why things didn't go Mary's way, so it's all conjecture.

[RanRan79]

Also, Mary writes about this time in her life [[the early 80s) that "My self confidence wasn't at its highest..." So I guess it makes sense that this too would play a part in the decisions she made regarding the industry.

[midnightman]

Mary said she and Neil were negotiating the deal with Casablanca when he died of cancer in 1982.

It's also possible Mary Wilson was trying to present herself as a woman who could sing anything via the Gus Dudgeon demos but labels told her to her face they couldn't sell a black woman singing rock and/or pop rock music so they turned her down.

Doesn't seem like she was trying to carve an R&B career at the time...

[Ollie9]

Mary Wilson has a wonderful Cassandra Wilson type voice. Jazz and soulful ballads was the genre of material she should have been recording at that period in time. Not rock,pop and most certainly not disco. She could have built quite a following if she had just understood the type of music that was best suited to her voice. I certainly believe record labels would have shown a little more interest if she had.
From an image perspective she often [[not always) presented herself as a kind of Diana Ross clone which did not help matters either. I think it would have been better for her to downplay the glamour/glitter image and gone for a more earthy look.

[sup_fan]

^agreed

it also didn't help that her show was essentially a rehashed Supremes show from the late 70s. many of the same arrangements and gowns. so she was touring basically as an oldies act but trying to audition for labels as a current pop star.

and as i said before, given her age she had about 3 weeks after leaving the Sups to make it before she would start being considered too old.

Time was ticking, she had locked herself in an out of date performance image, she had no current pop record in the US [[with our without the Sups).

[gman]

Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.

[marv2]

Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.

Yeah, she appeared in a number of stage productions. I saw her in Beehive and Grandma Sylvia's Funeral. She also appeared in "Leader of the Pack", "Ardella's Soul Shack", "Vagina Monologues" to name a few.

[marv2]

^agreed

it also didn't help that her show was essentially a rehashed Supremes show from the late 70s. many of the same arrangements and gowns. so she was touring basically as an oldies act but trying to audition for labels as a current pop star.

and as i said before, given her age she had about 3 weeks after leaving the Sups to make it before she would start being considered too old.

Time was ticking, she had locked herself in an out of date performance image, she had no current pop record in the US [[with our without the Sups).

Recording was just one part of Mary Wilson's career and we see now, recording contracts are not that beneficial financially to artists anymore. Maybe if you are the top 5-10 artists recording today.

[TheMotownManiac]

Recording contracts were much more beneficial in the late 70s and 80s because most acts were produced in association with the artists so the rampant ripping off artists by overcharging them for sessions was basically over. Mary was able to pay for sessions she wanted, or agree to be produced by house who wished to market her. Like Walk The Line. Yes, it ultimately didn’t work out, but it was all on their dime - It didn’t cost Mary a dime and she got TV and trade exposure because if the good single One Night Woth You.

[marv2]

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

She did several demos for Atlantic. One was written by Janie Bradford and it has become a favorite of mine:

[marv2]

Yes, it was not like she did nothing but I believe Motown may have made her very wary and probably she was reluctant to just be recording like she did with Motown. Still, Bogart passed away and Atlantic did not pan out. I remember seeing her on Good Morning America when Walk The Line came out and they even said she was widely quoted for wanting a recording deal and she laughed "I was begging". Her stint on Arsenio singing Walk The Line should have peaked some interest after CEO folded and I remember her singing Bad Case Of Lovin You on Rick Dees and he was quite complimentary. I think in negotiating perhaps the two sides couldn't come to terms with both being a legend and a new soloist but I am sure there are those on here who know far more than I and that will r*d#ly say so

Fantasy Records tried to sign Mary, but she passed on it and then sent Brenda Holloway to them. They simply could not come to terms with Mary.

[Roberta75]

Fantasy Records tried to sign Mary, but she passed it and then sent Brenda Holloway to them. They simply could not come to terms with Mary.

Mary Wilsons generous to a fault. The womans a saint.

[midnightman]

Recording contracts were much more beneficial in the late 70s and 80s because most acts were produced in association with the artists so the rampant ripping off artists by overcharging them for sessions was basically over. Mary was able to pay for sessions she wanted, or agree to be produced by house who wished to market her. Like Walk The Line. Yes, it ultimately didn’t work out, but it was all on their dime - It didn’t cost Mary a dime and she got TV and trade exposure because if the good single One Night Woth You.

Just wished it paid off with a hit single.

[TheMotownManiac]

It is a shame - it got good distribution- it was in many stores and reviewed in Billboard positively but sadly radio stayed away totally. Her vocal is very good but needed some polish - especially at the end. Still, I thought it would get some play.

[midnightman]

Imagine had a major label done the same thing and actually promoted it, huh...

[Bluebrock]

Recording was just one part of Mary Wilson's career and we see now, recording contracts are not that beneficial financially to artists anymore. Maybe if you are the top 5-10 artists recording today.

But they were back in the period we are discussing.

[midnightman]

Yeah we're not discussing now, we're discussing BACK THEN...

[marv2]

Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.

I almost forgot one of my favorite shows Mary appeared in, "Supreme Soul" in 1997 with Tommy Nillson in Sweden and other European Markets.

[luke]

Due to Marv...Lolol. Mary is quite satisfied with who she is and her legacy...and so is Colin Powell, Land mines organization , Harlem ice skaters, AIDS groups , Truth in Music, Breast cancer organizations etc etc.

[REDHOT]

Mary Wilson is a success,even without a hit record,shes been a singer all her life,shes hit some highs and some lows,that's LIFE,The Supremes success is her success too,she has worked it,and there's nothing wrong with that,she had a solo deal,with a major record company, MOTOWN,for what ever reason,she did,Mary Wilson is still singing and entertaining,all over the world, let the haters hate,Work it Mary Wilson

[marv2]

Due to Marv...Lolol. Mary is quite satisfied with who she is and her legacy...and so is Colin Powell, Land mines organization , Harlem ice skaters, AIDS groups , Truth in Music, Breast cancer organizations etc etc.

She also "adopted" a Detroit public school girl to mentor, provide clothing and books to recently.

[midnightman]

So we can't discuss why Mary struggled to get the right deal? It was obvious that there were things going on in the industry that prevented her from taking advantage of opportunities. We know how racist and sexist the industry is but we can't talk about it because it's all in the past? Get off that post-racial "forget about it" rant, guys! JFC... even Mary would think this was a good discussion. I'm sure she can discuss the post-Supremes years more in her attempts to get a solo deal. Some of y'all act like it's hurting her legacy talking about it lol

[jobeterob]

I actually think most Supremes remember the good things, the good times and the good old days

Nut cases are on ignore by them

[Roberta75]

She also "adopted" a Detroit public school girl to mentor, provide clothing and books to recently.

Mary did a wonderful thing by sponsoring this young lady. She didnt adopt her she sponsors her and is encouarging others to sponsor children. Why do you insist in exagerating everything. You put the "adopted" in quotes but its still misleading. Mary doesnt need you to make her look better. She is a great person and wouldnt appreciate you misconstruing things she does.

Here is the link to anyone here or everywhere that would like to sponsor a child.Please pass it on to all your friends and familly. www.childrenincorporated.org Its a real great charity and almost 92% of the money donated goes directly to the charity which makers it one of the best to donate to.



Mary Wilson
March 21 ·
Finally met my new friend in Detroit. Yes I am a sponsor of Armani. Isn’t she cute. I was in town with my Figure Skating in Detroit group which gave me the opportunity to meet Her. To sponsor a child is so gratifying.

Mary Wilson
March 21 ·
Mary Wilson sponsors this beautiful young lady through CHILDREN INCORPORATED. She became involved with the organization for two reasons: to help this child on an individual basis, and to encourage other people to do likewise. Child sponsorship is easy. For just $30 monthly, a child will receive individualized assistance including food, clothing, school supplies, and so much more. It really does work, and it really does make a difference. Please, Mary Wilson fans, consider sponsoring through CHILDREN INCORPORATED. Sponsor in Ms. Wilson's honor. Call 1-800-538-5381 to get started, and be sure to tell the operator that you are sponsoring as a result of Ms. Wilson's example. Thanks a lot, from one Supreme lover to many others....

www.childrenincorporated.org