Mary's Going to see Diana's Vegas Show?

[Boogiedown]

Hi Ran. Sorry to be so delayed in this response process, I don't have daily access to my computer. The thread's moved on but I've just a couple more comments so I'll give this one more round with my conclusion , this time I'm first black, and then green .

"Why "of course"?"

By most- if not all- accounts, everyone in the know could see that Tommy couldn't be trusted. So I would think it smart on Diana's part that if Tommy was attempting to act as a go between, she would wisely avoid that situation.
Quite confusing indeed. You've said that Tommy is out of the house with the divorce pending , so I don't understand how he has any say or would even be around to have any say. Besides wouldn't our maturing Diana know that the thing to do at this point would be to let lawyers on both sides handle it.
"Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work?"

I've been under the impression that Flo losing the house happened after she filed for divorce from Tommy, so no, I don't believe they were together during this juncture. Cue back to the part in a previous post where I say that Tommy trying to intercept Diana's check doesn't make sense. ya That's one of the reasons why. As for Tommy and working, I think he always kept a job. I don't recall anything about him being out of work, except maybe a period of time after he was no longer Flo's manager.
This is troubling, no matter the mother, a working man allows his three children to lose their home, to wind up out in the streets? Does this sound like a fatherly person you'd want to reunite with later?
"Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ??"

Another part of the story that doesn't make sense. And this will tie into the part where you questioned my remark about Florence being unaware of Diana offering assistance. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that if Diana were ever down on her luck and needed anything that Flo would do whatever she could. But Flo supposed that Diana didn't feel the same way, implying that she believed Diana knew she was having difficulties but didn't try to help. I'm taking Flo's words on this. If Diana did attempt to offer help, Florence never knew about it. If Flo didn't know about it , how did Diana go about attempting to help exactly ? Seems like all you do is chase down the mortgage company and pay them the damn mortgage. This calls into question Maxine writing in her book that Flo refused to answer Diana's calls. Other than Maxine flat out lying, the only other explanation for her version of events is the mixing up of time periods. Maxine's story jumps all over the place in her book, and there are times when it's apparent that the timeline she created was a bit off. So I'm thinking any story where Diana is calling and Flo is refusing to take the call may have happened while Flo was still a Supreme and shit had gotten crazy. Although there is one other scenario that I just thought about: Flo claimed that prior to her and Diana's last conversation in 1975, the last time the two of them spoke was in 1971. 1971 was also when Flo sued Motown, naming her former singing partners in the suit, including her claim that Diana maliciously ousted her from the group. Could be that Diana called Flo about the suit and for awhile she dodged her calls before finally speaking. Or maybe they spoke on the phone and Flo didn't like what Diana had to say and when Diana kept trying, Flo refused the calls. At this point Maxine is dead, Flo is dead, so the only other person who could possibly shed factual light here is Diana. Boogie you may be right about the story being twisted. sure seems like it!

"I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy."

I don't believe Diana ever does anything halfhearted, not when it comes to helping people. It's the one part of her life I wish people talked about more. But! , you have said earlier in this thread that you believe Diana is being truthful when she claims she's looked but can't find Cindy. You also said its very easy these days to find somebody if you've got the resources to do so [[as Diana would). So for Diana to look and not find her = half-hearted effort .
It just doesn't add up for me that someone who is really trying to pay a mortgage can't pull it off. [[especially if they started the conversation with, "Hi This is Diana Ross")

"Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)"

It wasn't in the cards because the woman died several months later. I'm curious to know what you think she should have been doing in order to label her intention to get back into singing as "in the cards" probably everything she wasn't . I would never advise anyone to jump right into anything of that significance. And having a spouse who clearly was unreliable would be the last reason for Florence to leave those children. LOL Well you make my point . Tommy is a big part of the problem here. see below.



And bad decisions does not negate a person's maturity. Florence was an abused woman in the 1970s. Where abused women go, she was the rule, not the exception. Domestic abuse is much more widely understood today and yet 10 million women annually are victims of it. Returning to an abusive spouse doesn't denote a period of mature growth no more than Diana's alcoholism and drunk driving charge at 50 something suddenly made her an immature woman. Uh , yes that does. On both counts , Diana' and Flo's. Now if your position is that once mature always mature decisions, then we'll have to agree to disagree as I do not believe that's even possible. well if you can be mature and still do immature things , doesn't that render being mature useless.

"And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here ."

For me Tommy can be easily ignored. see above If anything Tommy's presence would've been even more motivation to try again at a singing career since he so obviously loved the potential meal ticket. as in "Get out there and sing Flo or I'll beat the s*%t out of ya!" Bottom line for me is that at age 32 Flo was figuring things out. She received mental help [[something most people, let alone Black women, in the 70s didn't dare think about doing), she was reconciling old relationships, she was singing again, once she was back in the money. But it was that performance that I think nailed it. She knew where her place was and I suspect that if death hadn't found her so early, we would have heard a bit more from the great Florence Ballard.

OK I've heard your viewpoint Ran and I'm not going to come to same conclusion. I see little here that favors Florence making a comeback. In the first place , a comeback to what ? She has no history as a solo artist and nothing to offer as such. She's not even bankable as a former Supreme , that title being stripped from her, and besides, looking around, who is wooing former Supremes to make them into stars? ABC Records did try and the results were so abysmal they couldn't even ante up one album worthy of release. The singles released flopped. [[I have not heard these songs . Why are they bad?) This is Flo's resume at this point: A firing from Motown , a failed solo contract, and five years of doing nothing vocally. She's got a history of drinking , and personal issues. Is she clean? Is she fit mentally, physically ? Is she?

Don't know the details of this one benefit performance she finally did , but who can say how impressive it was or wasn't. How big was the crowd ? How big the production, how many songs ? Who was there ? No offers flooded in from it and eight more uneventful months pass.

So, Flo tells Diana she's ready to sing, and that indicates a magic switch has been activated. She's ready. However, she's still in Detroit , she's still a mother of three, she's advancing into her thirties, ^{she's still indulging Tommy}, but maybe she meant ready to go back to singing in a more realistic way, as you said above, it wouldn't be advisable for her to jump right into it. She's going to have to reinvent herself from the ground up. Maybe Flo could find work as a studio session singer, or maybe as a backup singer for a touring act . And even at that level, I say maybe.
But as a prime time headliner? as "FLORENCE BALLARD"? I think its going to take a miracle.

[RanRan79]

OK I've heard your viewpoint Ran and I'm not going to come to same conclusion.

That's quite alright Boogie. Like I said before, we don't have to agree with each other. It was just cool enough to be able to go back and forth with ideas. I'm sure the one thing we can absolutely agree on is that Florence left the world way too soon.

[[I have not heard these songs. Why are they bad?)

As far as the singles go, Flo's first single "It Doesn't Matter" was an okay song but it didn't seem right for Flo's voice. Some have supposed it was more Diana's style and that was what the label was looking for. There's an alternate unreleased version that IMO has Flo approaching the song a bit more in her own style, and that's the version I prefer.

Flo's second single "Love Aint Love" was very good and most fans agree that it was a hit that never was. [[It actually managed to make a few regional playlists at the time.) But without the company push, possible backlash from Gordy, and Flo getting in her own way, the single tanked.

As far as the rest of her recordings at ABC, IMO they were hit and miss. [[The writer Nelson George refers to Flo's version of "Goin Out of My Head" as superior to Little Anthony's. The song itself is one of my all time favs by anyone, but I wouldn't call Flo's version "superior" to the original. But she does a fantastic rendition.) A few gems, a few clunkers. Definitely a singer trying to find her footing.