Question about the final two Marvelettes albums

[RBTEMPSFAN]

Hi gang,

As we know, the last two Marvelettes albums, In Full Bloom and Return of the Marvelettes were really WAnda and the Andantes.

So I have always wondered why Motown would spend the time and the money to put out these products when the group was no longer touring and the records were no longer selling? What was the point?

Also, same for Martha - the final albums had no market except for die hard fans. So why would Motown put them out when there was no market?

Perhaps someone on the forum can explain why the company would spend mondey and know, in advance, that there were not going to be sales to offset the costs?

And why did Motown stop having the Marvelettes tour? They had enough hit records in the later years that could have allowed them to tour and make money?

So why put out product that would not sell, why not allow them to perform - what was the point?

[blueskies]

You need to read this book. It's spelled out in detail.

[Sotosound]

You need to read this book. It's spelled out in detail.

I'm also curious to know about this but if I have to buy a book to find out then it devalues this forum, eh?

[blueskies]

I'm also curious to know about this but if I have to buy a book to find out then it devalues this forum, eh?

That's what books are for. Try a library.

[motony]

Kat & Ann were on tracks on "In Full Bloom" & "Uptown" was on both LPs.They had trouble touring because of Wandas' increasing substance abuse issues.

[dba]

Thanks for the heads up on the book, I was able to put a reserve on it at the New York Public Library.

[RBTEMPSFAN]

But guys, we are not talking about the book - I have read the book and love the book.

The question for the forum members is WHY would BG spend the money to put out a product when there was no promotion and no live performances by the group? The songs that Kat supposedly sang on were recorded years ago. She says so in the book.

So I am trying to understand from a business point of view why this was done. The book says that Smokey wanted to do a project on Wanda [[with the Andantes) But Smokey had to know that there was no market for this, and BG had to OK it. So why Ok it when Motown knew that it would not sell and the girls were not on the road to promote it?

Please share your thoughts, but please do not quote the book because the book only tells us what happened. It does not explain the business decision to spend money with no possibility of getting any money back.

Think about it please.

[jsmith]

In the UK the Marvelettes "When You're Young & In Love" [[a May 67 release) was a big club & radio hit. It took off & spent 10 weeks in the UK Pop Top 50, peaking at #13. Their 45 releases after that :-
"My Baby Must Be a Magician " [[Jan 68)
"Here I Am Baby" [[June 68)
"Reachin For Sumat Can't Have [[June 69)
.... all got lots of club exposure & some radio plays.
So the group had a high UK profile till the end of 1969.
In the US 'In Full Bloom' came out in Sept 69 with 'Return' in Sept 70, so I'd guess their UK success partially resurrected their US release profile.
'In Full Bloom' escaped in the UK in 1970 [[May) and 'Return of' was scheduled for release here in the middle of 71 but was withdrawn at the last minute [[probably coz the group were no more).
BUT the UK success they were enjoying in 68/69/70 must have prompted Berry to give them another go.

[marybrewster]

But guys, we are not talking about the book - I have read the book and love the book.

The question for the forum members is WHY would BG spend the money to put out a product when there was no promotion and no live performances by the group? The songs that Kat supposedly sang on were recorded years ago. She says so in the book.

So I am trying to understand from a business point of view why this was done. The book says that Smokey wanted to do a project on Wanda [[with the Andantes) But Smokey had to know that there was no market for this, and BG had to OK it. So why Ok it when Motown knew that it would not sell and the girls were not on the road to promote it?

Please share your thoughts, but please do not quote the book because the book only tells us what happened. It does not explain the business decision to spend money with no possibility of getting any money back.

Think about it please.

I'm confused by your question. You want answers, but you don't want facts? The book as referenced above is going to be the only solid source.

With that said, I don't know that you're going to find the answers you're looking for on this forum. You'll certainly get opinions, but if you're looking for facts, you'll need to speak to Smokey or Mr. Gordy.

[RossHolloway]

Well I think a couple of things were in play with the release of those two albums. First, I think Motown released alot of singles and albums by artists that were not very well known or that the company knew were not going to be big sellers, so releasing two albums by the Marvelettes is not such a foreign concept or a stretch of the imagination. I've read the above mentioned book when it was first release, but I don't recall when the author stated the groups last televison or concert appearance was. I've always wondered about that.

My second point about those two albums is the Bobby Rogers connection. Seeing as Bobby and Wanda were married during this time period, I wonder if Smokey working with Wanda wasn't a favor to Bobby - his singing and writing partner. It definitely makes sense.

[BayouMotownMan]

When artists sign on with a record company, especially one like Motown, the contract states how many albums and singles will be issued during the term of that contract. That is one reason for the In Full Bloom lp.

Also remember, in 1969, the Marvelettes were still a known entity. Although not as popular as the Supremes or Vandellas, they still had a history of hit records. Therefore their product was still marketable. Promotion was limited mostly because the group was in such disarray, with Wanda having serious problems. There were no tv appearances or interviews, only limited stage appearances.

The Return Of The Marvelettes was not supposed to be. This was intended by Smokey to be a Wanda solo album. Gordy hesitated on this release. It was high quality, but Wanda was still unpredictable and out of control. Gordy felt that whatever sales it could generate would best be done under the Marvelettes name since Wanda's name was not known. By and far the Marvelettes disbanded prior to the release of their last album.

Wanda was well loved at Motown. But it is difficult to market someone who is out of control. They had the same problem with David Ruffin, a beautifully talented vocalist. But one never knew what David would be like from day to day.

[motony]

"the Marvelettes" name was a known commodity as having been on the Pop & Soul charts continually from 1961-1969. Radio stations & distributors were/are flooded with new product every week so a known name might get a better shot at airplay & ofcourse what gets airplay is what has a chance of selling...when a company like Motown releases alot of 45's, some get written off for tax purposes as losing money. Its a gamble, the record business was /is not for the faint of heart.LOL

[motony]

I agree with what Bayoumotownman says above. I was a big reader of Billboard Magazine back in the day, it was like the record business Bible so to speak...."Thats How Heartaches Are Made" was just released on the Marvelettes & was getting good airplay.I remember a specific article in Billboard saying that Motown promotion was really getting behind this 45 release & they were looking for it to be a big hit on the Hot 100. Just a few weeks later it fell off the charts.....in hindsight I think they withdrew all promotion because of problems with Wanda & the group not being able to work.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I'm confused by your question. You want answers, but you don't want facts? The book as referenced above is going to be the only solid source.

With that said, I don't know that you're going to find the answers you're looking for on this forum. You'll certainly get opinions, but if you're looking for facts, you'll need to speak to Smokey or Mr. Gordy.

My thoughts exactly. How would we know what was on Smokey's or Mr. Gordy's minds over 40 years ago? All that the question will get is theories and personal opinions, but not solid facts.
However, I think Bayoumotownman and Motony are both correct in saying Smokey intended to help his cousin- in- law's wife to go solo, so he took her into the studio when she was straight. But Gordy or other execs nixed the solo idea and released it as another Marvelettes album because the group's name still meant something at the time and they knew Wanda was not reliable. It's possible had anything from the "Return" album hit, they could have gotten some new Marvelettes to work with Wanda. Katherine was already complaining to the company about Wanda and indicating that she didn't want to continue with her. If Wanda's tracks on "Return" had hit, Motown management would have replaced Katherine quick.

[snakepit]

As usual, I always look at the writers/producers/arrangers /musicians angle.
Allowing for the fact that the commercial chances were slim, I'm happy that all that work done by the above was not wasted and that we got the opportunity to hear their hard work.

[jobeterob]

You never know where a hit will come from. There were poor prospects for Where Did Our Love Go and Tears of a Clown too, not to mention Abraham Martin & John/What the World Needs Now is Love and I've Never Been to Me.

Being able to write something off doesn't change the fact that is also costs to produce it. All costs are deductible but you have to make money to have something to deduct costs from.

I'd say they were hoping for a hit, hoping the group or some members of it might make it through the disarray.

[BayouMotownMan]

At the time of the last Marvelettes lp release, Motown was working overtime promoting and establishined the J5, Ross and the new Supremes. Plus they were maintained The Tempts, Pips, Stevie, Marvin. This left precious little time for the Marvelettes. That's How Heartaches Are Made is a gorgeous production and should have hit big. So I Can Love You off that album was also hit material. Wanda was in her prime vocally

[Kamasu_Jr]

At the time of the last Marvelettes lp release, Motown was working overtime promoting and establishined the J5, Ross and the new Supremes. Plus they were maintained The Tempts, Pips, Stevie, Marvin. This left precious little time for the Marvelettes. That's How Heartaches Are Made is a gorgeous production and should have hit big. So I Can Love You off that album was also hit material. Wanda was in her prime vocally

How many times did Motown issue singles of "That's How Heartaches... ?" At least twice, and I remember the same being done with "Marionette." There was some attempt at getting interest and attention for Wanda's solo career in the black press. I remember reading several items about her in SOUL from the 1970s. Somebody was behind this. I doubt if Wanda had her own publicist in those days. However, she wrote a few letters to SOUL herself.




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[BayouMotownMan]

I remember that Kamasu, but Soul was primarily read by Soul music afficianados so it's distribution was limited. The Return did chart at No 50 on the Soul Album Charts. If she got that kind of coverage in Hit Parade or even Ebony, she'd have gotten more attention

[Kamasu_Jr]

SOUL was distributed in the major cities that counted like Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, Atlanta, Memphis, New Orleans and Cleveland. And we know how large the populations in those cities were and that was also a lot of POTENTIAL record sales. But everyone didn't buy SOUL or read it. My dad bought it and people he knew would borrow it to read and give it back. His copy of SOUL would make it around the neighborhood. LOL

[jobeterob]

I lived way north of Vancouver............and WE GOT SOUL too! And I read it.

By 1969, all those female groups out of Motown were past their prime ~ Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes. A complete metamorphosis was needed to keep them going and only the Supremes got that for a couple of years.

There wasn't much Motown or any other record label was going to do to pull a hit out of them unless they changed and unless the group worked together ~ and none of that worked for any of those groups by 1972.

[reese]

I read SOUL during the 70s and 80s, although I couldn't consistently find it. But I do remember a small article in SOUL around the time of the release of MARVELETTES' ANTHOLOGY. It mentioned Wanda Rogers, and I remember that it was the first time that I learned any of their names.

[LuvHangOva]

Everyone keeps mentioning them but no one shares any details. At that time I wasn't really paying attention to The Marvelettes' debacle so without going into obsessively prurient detail would someone like to share a little info about what Wanda Rogers' "issues" might have been?? I mean as far as I know she could have gone insane and thought she was Mary, Queen of Scots. I don't have a clue.

Backstory?? Anyone??

[jsmith]

Wanda had a heavy drug problem at the time [[as it says above).

[LuvHangOva]

Thanks, I guess I missed that. That's kinda like saying Diana Ross had a drinking problem. Odd that the way we know every teeny tiny detail of that period of Diana's life but we are respectful enough to Mrs Young to just say "she had a drug problem". Not that I'm complaining ... In our gossip oriented world it just seemed a little odd. Again, not an issue with me... Just making an observation... Not a complaint.

Did they find her cooking up meth out in the kitchen while doing the collard greens, ham and corn bread for dinner?? Maybe the issue was smoking copious amounts of crack??? or perhaps she got hooked on prescription drugs like painkillers and Valium Initially prescribed by her physician?? It's really not best to leave the details to my imagination . I was just curious since a lot of people say Wanda Rogers' erratic behavior torpedoed the career of the Marvelettes in later years. That's a pretty heavy indictment for such sketchy details about the cause of said behavior.

[mysterysinger]

Motown clearly had a product there that they were trying to capitalize on and no one could say with certainty that the albums and singles from The Marvelettes would not be big sellers. There would have been at least some loyal following and, as pointed out, there was a market in the UK for things Marvelettes. On chance there could have been a hit from them but another thing to consider is a potential re-surge in interest in Motown artists generally as a result of the successes of J5, Tempts, Diana Ross etc. Those Marvelettes albums could have been a stepping stone to a retitling, you know Wanda Rodgers and The Marvelettes or eventually they may have planned for Wanda's solo career later [[but the time wasn't right then as the focus had to be on Diana).

[RossHolloway]

Thanks, I guess I missed that. That's kinda like saying Diana Ross had a drinking problem. Odd that the way we know every teeny tiny detail of that period of her life we are respectful enough to Mrs Young to just say "she had a drug problem". Not that I'm complaining ... In our gossip oriented world it just seemed a little odd. Again, not an issue with me... Just making an observation... Not a complaint.

Did they find her cooking up meth out in the kitchen while doing the collard greens, ham and corn bread for dinner?? Maybe the issue was smoking copious amounts of crack??? or perhaps she got hooked on prescription drugs like painkillers and Valium Initially prescribed by her physician?? It's really not best to leave the details to my imagination . I was just curious since a lot of people say Wanda Rogers' erratic behavior torpedoed the career of the Marvelettes in later years. That's a pretty heavy indictment for such sketchy details about the cause of said behavior.

Last year the show UNSUNG did an episode on the Marvalettes, and on that show Katherine Anderson clearly stated that Wanda had a drinking and substance abuse problem. She also stated that Wanda had become erratic the last few years the group was together and that Wanda was unreliable in terms of showing up for concerts and showing up at the recording studio. Motown was very protective of their artists' image and even today most artists will only focus on the good things about Motowna and the industry and rarely do artists like Smokey, Diana, Martha, or Stevie Wonder ever air any dirty laundry for that time period.

[LuvHangOva]

Thanks for the additional info. I wasn't so much surprised by Motown not giving detail. It was the other notorious gossip mongers of the national enquirer variety that I was surprised at... Even back then they lived for exposing people's filthy laundry.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Honestly, all of the Marvelettes had issues and problems, everyone does, some were just more obvious or worse than others.

[RossHolloway]

Honestly, all of the Marvelettes had issues and problems, everyone does, some were just more obvious or worse than others.

Well the one thing that really struck me was Katherine's admission that the Supreme's had a lead singer that really drove the group and pushed the group ahead thru hardwork and that the Marvelettes, with Wanda as lead, was in a way held back by that.

But I agree, we all have "issues and problems" in life, it's all a part of everyone's life. As the saying goes, "Noone makes it out alive."

[Kamasu_Jr]

Well the one thing that really struck me was Katherine's admission that the Supreme's had a lead singer that really drove the group and pushed the group ahead thru hardwork and that the Marvelettes, with Wanda as lead, was in a way held back by that.

But I agree, we all have "issues and problems" in life, it's all a part of everyone's life. As the saying goes, "Noone makes it out alive."

Yes, Diana did push the Supremes. People have told stories about her chewing Mary & Flo out for what she thought were sub-par performances. Gladys Knight said she was surprised at how assertive and bossy Ross was. But Katherine eventually took over some because she had to. She couldn't rely on Wanda and Gladys was long gone.

[BayouMotownMan]

The Marvelettes were extremely young, teenagers, when fame came. In fact they were so young that Motown tried putting out a group of older, fake Marvelettes on the road at Postman was climbing the charts. It didn't work. The girls then dropped out of high school and went on the road

[copley]

Re the Marvelettes aforementioned alleged UK 'success'. As much as I love them [[they are 'my' girls) they were in fact one hit wonders and apart from that they had no other success at all! Little airplay of subsequent singles and no touring to try to capitalise on their hit! In fact they were Motown's least successful big act in the UK! It certainly did not result in Motown deciding to record more material on them. 'Sophisticated Soul' yielded two US Top 50 hits then it was all over. 'In Full Bloom', my fav Motown album, has a number of songs that pre-date 'Sophisticated Soul' or were recorded in the same time frame. By that time the group was in total disarray with no possibility of promoting ‘In Full Bloom’. ‘Return’ as we now know was another of Motown’s lies! Again why Motown thought that it was commercially a good idea to issue an album under the Marvelettes name who in reality no longer existed with a singer who was ‘having serious difficulties’ I’ll never understand. I’m just so glad that they did.

[jobeterob]

They just wanted to make a few more bucks.

[copley]

Yup, but it didn't work. Motown must have lost a lot of money!

[LuvHangOva]

Ultimately what this thread says to me is that we need a totally unbiased, very well researched and factual book about The Marvelettes. There's lots of drama to be covered here, which if done well should make a fascinating read

[copley]

There is the very good book that's mentioned above that covers most things. Kat's story is in the book. Gladys is gone, Wanda is also gone in a different way. We will never get BG's story so I think that's your lot. Too much time has passed, memories fade & become distorted and I'm afraid that there would not be enough interest in another book. Mind you I would buy it.

[LuvHangOva]

The only problem I see is getting the facts right. Selling it shouldn't be a problem. As a former dj and [[award winning) commercial writer I know you can sell anything....assembling the right team to help with promotion and marketing might also be tough. But the basic story is fascinating and soooo full of drama. People wouldn't necessarily have to be big fans of Motown or the Marvelettes. If unmitigated crap like "Dynasty" can be a hit so could this story if someone could think "outside of the box". [[The "box" being us hard core Motown/Marvelettes fans)

[Methuselah2]

The history of Motown has clearly shown that the company had no problem with shelving albums--or any recorded material, for that matter. But for whatever reason, it seems Wanda's solo effort started to look questionable, from what is known, as to potential sales. And, so, it became THE RETURN OF THE MARVELETTES. It would seem Motown had a viable product. And, in essence, it did: Wanda + The Andantes + Smokey producing. The 'Marvelettes' name was tacked on as a selling point. But like the album's title and cover photo, it was clever alright--and completely questionable. What kind of 'Return' has ever featured such an obscured, hidden photo of its artists? What should have been heralded loud and clear had it been an actual 'Return' was merely being whispered. But that cover photo was screaming.

[REDHOT]

What a Story,now that would be the movie to see,only if,i can dream,if i want to lol,Please stay positive

[johnjeb]

As I recall, during the Fall of 1970 Motown released a lot of albums. I seem to remember numerous ads in Billboard, at the time. I think there was a sales convention or some special marketing campaign. I probably have clippings. [[I think there was something similar in the Fall of 1969, but on a much smaller scale.)

In referencing Don Waller's The Motown Story publication I see there appears to have been 24 album releases from Motown in September 1970, alone. [[Compared to 10 in September 1969). There were additional releases, from top tier artists, in August and October 1970, as well.

I think there was a discussion on this Forum that Diana Ross' Everything Is Everything album was hastily done for this marketing campaign since her Ashford & Simpson Surrender album would not be ready for this sales period.

Maybe Motown decided against a Wanda solo album, at this time, feeling it might detract from the second Diana Ross solo album. So releasing a Marvelettes album probably made sense for this sales campaign to show that many familiar and loved artists had new product. [[Of course, I do acknowledge Motown could have had other reasons due to the instability of the group and its' lead singer.)

Personally, I think a Wanda Rogers album might have created more interest and curiosity at this sales convention than a Marvelettes album. I don't think there were too many people, at the time, saying "Wow, a new Marvelettes album!", apart from me and a few of us here on Soulful Detroit. Also, the cover was dreadful and didn't ignite any interest in this Marvelettes fan.

Many of the albums released in 1969 and 1970, my last two years as a poor college student, I ended up buying in cut-out bins a few years later. In Full Bloom and Return were two of those. It took me a long time, at the urging of a friend, to like, and then love, In Full Bloom.

Unfortunately I can't say the same for Return. I appear to be in the minority of Marvelettes fans regarding this album. A couple of songs are good but overall I find it boring. I'm not a fan of remakes and this album has too many of them, poorly done, in my opinion. In addition, I don't find Wanda's vocals as appealing on this album as on previous albums. However I do like So I Can Love You, which should have been the title of the first, and probably only, Wanda Rogers solo album.

[supremester]

Well, first, I have to reply to the above: nothing, I repeat, NOTHING The Marvelettes did after WDOLG had any effect on The Supremes' or Ross' sales. I highly doubt that was even a fleeting thought. As to why Motown would issue these and others: first, it cost them little to release. ALL recording costs, promotion etc were charged against the artist, so there was very little financial investment. I think very little about "promotion" is understood in this forum - it's WAY over rated. Most often the cream rose to the top with or without promotion. I know for a fact that Berry was trying to keep Martha going, although he was very very frustrated with her and had been for years. Black Magic was a commercially viable album with strong potential for hit singles but radio would not budge. The Marvelettes were way worse off than Martha as far as radio went. I think Smokey wanted very much to help Wanda and Berry, out of respect, went along. Remember also that even groups that sold little brought in bank from live shows. Motown made tons off of their reviews and opening acts.