Questions on Motown 1018

[carole cucumber]

.....I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.

You CAN contact the seller.
Go to the original listing you posted: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT...p2047675.l2557

Go the box marked Seller Information- and click on seller's name, in this case mahslemonaid.

This will lead to a second screen with feedback ratings. At the top right corner of the rectangle is the word 'contact'.
Click on it and it will bring up a new screen wherein you may send a question/communication to the seller.

I hope this helps & good luck!

[robb_k]

Wasn't it in 1963 that Mike Hanks almost bought 2656 West Grand Blvd. to annoy Berry G. who arranged thru his legal people to snatch the deal from him by some "creative means". He really didn't want Hanks operating so close to him.

From what you say this disc would have been released around the time all that was going on.

On the scan in the original Ebay listing there is a Nashville Matrix stamp visible in the dead-wax - I can't see an ARP one, but it may be there just not visible in the scan.

I'm sure Frank Morelli was linked to a forthcoming Workshop Jazz release that for some reason, like several others around that time, didn't happen - I don't know if any recordings for it were actually cut, but it's possible these two sides may have been intended for that project and the "Vocal" could be as you suggest just some loose vocals over what would have been a couple of light commercial jazz tracks.

I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.

Frank Morelli was a Jazz saxaphonist. I taped some Motown cuts he had in The Motown Vault. I also saw some Jobete Music acetates and a couple Motown demo records of his. His cut, "DeFunk Brothers" was his best I heard. I play it a lot, at home. If I remember correctly, he was originally slated for one Workshop Jazz 45, and an LP. Neither was released. Maybe Morelli's All Stars ended up leaving Motown in some compensation disagreement, or disappointment over not getting the promised release, and then signed with Hanks. But, I sincerely doubt that Gordy planned a Jazz release on Motown 1018, in 1961. All of Morelli's vaulted cuts were late 1962 and into 1964. So, I doubt that he moonlighted with Hanks while staying with Motown, and also doubt that he left Motown in 1963, and returned in 1964.

Yes, mid 1963 was when Hanks was trying to buy the house near Hitsville, and Gordy nipped that in the bud. That would have been about the same time as that pressing number at ARP. But, I doubt that Hanks would have used a known unused 1961 Motown catalogue number. He'd have used a current one.

I really doubt that Morelli and his All Stars were at Motown in 1961. The Jazz musicians at Motown at that time were mostly those who had been in Joe Hunter's Band, Popcorn Wylie's Mohawks, Maurice King's Band, Johnny Allen, maybe a couple of ex's from T.J. Fowler's Band, and maybe Johnny Griffith [[but, I thought he arrived in 1962 with most of the Workshop Jazz signees. Dave Hamilton, Frank Morelli, and most of the rest came in 1962. I think that Choker Campbell also arrived later than 1961.

I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.

Don't we all!We might have also heard, at least, snippets of the two sides.

[johnny_raven]

Attachment 12646
Here are the PMP sides. M must stand for Mike [[Hanks). I don't know for whom the Ps stand. The names of the songwriters are Jazz names [[one being Detroit Jazz musician, Frank Morelli [[who had also recorded for Motown)). I recognise Ashby, Austin and Pollard as Detroit Jazz players. Otis Pollard and Ray Pollard were East coasters. I am positive that The All Stars on Von were an instrumental group, and surmise that these PMP All Stars must be that same group. I also assume that "Disintergrated" must be an instrumental. I would bet that "Senorita" is also an instrumental [[maybe with a Latin tune and beat). If it does have a vocal, then, the group must be unnamed. A poster on this thread said the record had vocals. I'd like some proof. The pressing number looks like a number from ARP [[American Record Pressing Co. [[Michigan)) from 1963. Mike Hanks hated and mocked Motown. It would have been just like him to assign a record label catalogue number that Motown was set to use to a release that he "stole" from them, after a Motown deal fell through. The problem is that Motown 1018 would have been released in 1961, and this record was likely released in 1963. But, Hanks could have found out the story of the failed negotiations from one of the "P" owners, who brought the recordings to him, and used that number for that reason, even 2 years later. But this is far-fetched speculation. So, I suspect that the 1018 number is just a coincidence.

Robb:

I'm afraid you might be incorrect. I just found an article on Newspapers.com from The Detroit Free Press dated Jan. 31, 1964. It's an article about a local FEMALE pianist named TERRY POLLARD. In the article, it mentions that she had worked with THE DOROTHY ASHBY TRIO, THE BIRDLAND ALL STARS [[featuring Count Basie, Sarah Vaughn and Billy Eckstine), WILLIAM AUSTIN [[Bass Player) and WILBERT MYRICK [[drums). Terry Pollard also appeared on the Tonight Show, Ed Sullivan & Steve Allen. This is definitely the same set of musicians.

[johnny_raven]

Also, it most probably is Frank Morelli as one of the writers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was in the band.

[TomatoTom123]

Damn this thread is confusing... I've had to read it through several times to even understand what on earth is going on... Lol

Oh yea, I don't know anything about this and cannot contribute but want to wish everyone good luck on getting to the bottom of this record!!!!

[johnny_raven]

This is from discogs ...



There's no pic of the B-side, but the title is [[drumroll, please ...) DISINTEGRATED.

The mystery thins ...

[robb_k]

Robb:

I'm afraid you might be incorrect. I just found an article on Newspapers.com from The Detroit Free Press dated Jan. 31, 1964. It's an article about a local FEMALE pianist named TERRY POLLARD. In the article, it mentions that she had worked with THE DOROTHY ASHBY TRIO, THE BIRDLAND ALL STARS [[featuring Count Basie, Sarah Vaughn and Billy Eckstine), WILLIAM AUSTIN [[Bass Player) and WILBERT MYRICK [[drums). Terry Pollard also appeared on the Tonight Show, Ed Sullivan & Steve Allen. This is definitely the same set of musicians.

Thanks Johnny. These last 2 posts have cleared up a LOT! These All Stars are Clearly The Birdland All Stars, and the vocals were sung by Vic Perdue. This was The Birdland All Stars moonlighting with a small Detroit indie label, because they were playing behind lesser-known Vic Perdue, as Count Basie was contracted to Verve Records, and Sarah Vaughn to Mercury, and Billy Eckstine to Roulette.

It seems to me, after viewing the information on what clearly is the first pressing of PMP 1018, that it's more likely that this record was first pressed up by Carmen Murphy [[owner of HOB [[House of Beauty), Spartan, Starmaker and Soul Records), in partnership with the 2 "P" partners [[Including Terry Pollard?), as Mrs. Murphy's Chief Producer and A & R Man, Dino Courray, was originally listed as the writer, and Vic Perdue as the vocalist. Most of her 1963 labels' [[Starmaker and Soul) releases were pressed at ARP in their 6,300,000 series. The original music publisher was label co-owners' [["P" & "P"), as Mike Hanks was clearly not involved at that time. Mrs. Murphy made the great bulk of her income from her "House of Beauty" beauty shop, and had only funded her record labels to give the youth in Detroit's Black Community an outlet for their talent, and for them to have an opportunity for a career. She was a tremendously well-loved pillar of the community, generous to a fault, and a super nice lady. She proved that by "selling" the name of her "Soul Records" label to her former understudy, Berry Gordy, for $1.00. Thus, it's not surprising that she didn't ask for, or demand, half or all the publishing rights.

It appears to me clear that when Carmen Murphy closed down her record labels, in late 1963, and sold her Soul label name to Berry Gordy, and sold her remaining record company assets to her other former understudy, and former Chief Producer and A&R Man, Mike Hanks, that PMP Records was either part of her assets sold to him, or, she sent her former partners to her former head of production, Mike Hanks, to continue sales of their record. Either way, Mike Hanks bought or demanded full publishing rights to make further pressings of the record, and took Dino Courray's name off as writer of "Dark Eyed Senorita", and gave the writing credits back to the musicians [[who probably actually wrote the song), likely as compensation for taking away their music publishing rights. Courray was gone at that time, as he didn't move to Hanks' music empire along with Mrs. Murphy's assets. With the 2nd pressing coming out in later 1963, or, possibly early 1964, Mike Hanks probably figured that Vic Perdue was not very well known, and the group name, "All Stars" might do better alone, by being confused with Joe Von Battle's "All Stars", and Junior Walker's "All Stars". Therefore, he also removed the names of the individual "All Stars" listed as the musicians.

It's also clear to me that the catalogue number, 1018, has no relationship to Motown, as it was used on Carmen Murphy's mid 1963 pressing. I just can't bring myself to believe that Motown had an "All Stars" release slated for Motown 1018. I don't believe that The Birdland All Stars were signed to Motown in 1961. I think someone just had that as a theory, because they saw Mike Hanks' publishing on a Detroit release with the Motown missing catalogue number. It became an urban legend.

[robb_k]

Also, it most probably is Frank Morelli as one of the writers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was in the band.

But we see on the record's original pressing, that Frank Morelli WAS a member of the band, playing sax, as he is listed as one of the players [["played by....."), as it was sung by Vic Perdue.

[robb_k]

I found 3 websites that have either a "free" download of either snippets or the entire songs on both sides of the Vic Perdue record. The genre on these sides is listed as "Jazz/Pop-Latin", as opposed to Soul/R&B as listed on the auction for the Hanks pressing, which sold for $1,029. A photo of the artist shows a chubby, elderly Caucasian man. I feel sorry for the person who won the record, thinking it was a Mike Hanks-produced Soul record. He was tricked into buying something he likely wouldn't have bought if it was listed as "Pop/Jazz".

But, to listen even to the 30-second snippets, we have to download their special "download file convertor". I'm afraid of picking up malware from that, so I declined to do it.

Is there anyone who knows about these music download websites and could go there to see if downloading their "file converter" would be safe? You may already have those programmes, if they are legitimate.

Google "Vic Perdue - "Dark Eyed Senorita". About 8 links to download will come up.

[johnny_raven]

But we see on the record's original pressing, that Frank Morelli WAS a member of the band, playing sax, as he is listed as one of the players [["played by....."), as it was sung by Vic Perdue.

True, but my post was only moments before I found the Vic Purdue pic ...

[keith_hughes]

Frank Morelli played baritone sax & flute, and cut 9 sides for Motown in Apr-May 1963. All are instrumentals and most are jazz standards, but one tune, "Defunk Brothers" [[sic), was written by Johnny Griffith and Norval Childress, and published by Jobete. None of the titles resemble "Disintegrated" or "Senorita".

[motownjohnny]

With some assistance from carole cucumber, I earlier today made contact with the seller, who recently sold the PMP 45 on Ebay, and he has kindly provided the following info. on the record:

'Hello! I have not looked at the Motown catalog book in a long time. I know there are some numbers that have not surfaced. Like for example; I think there is supposed to be an Andre Williams 45 on the Miracle label, The Four Tops album on Workshop Jazz, and etc.

The All Stars that I sold listed the publishing as MAH'S, which would be a Mike Alonzo Hanks production. I think that Carmen Murphy, the lady who had the House Of Beauty, Soul, and etc. labels may have had a hand in that All Stars record. The record is rare BUT it was pretty bad, musically.

There was a Detroit Doo-Wop/Group record on the PMP that recently sold on Ebay. Maybe there was a connection? I've collected Detroit records for many years, and especially Mike Hanks productions, and that was the only copy of that All Stars record that I ever heard of. It is definitely not related to Junior Walker. The harpist Dorothy Ashby has writing credits on the record and you can hear harp on the record.

Thanks for your inquiry.

Best, Eric

This seems to confirm what has already been stated by robb_k. and it would appear there is no Motown connection.

[144man]

The M on the label is twice the size of the 2 Ps. As I said before, I saw this record advertised for sale a couple of times in Goldmine with the seller erroneously giving the label name as"M" with the catalogue number as "1018" omitting the P. Anyone who saw this record for sale as "M 1018" could have easily and mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that it was a Motown record especially after seeing the name "All Stars", and it could have snowballed from there.

[robb_k]

It's perfectly clear to me that the original release was a co-ownership of the two "P" people [[maybe Terry Pollard was one?), who represented The All Stars [[Birdland All Stars), together with Carmen Murphy, to whom they came, to get their record produced and distributed, and finance the recording and record pressing. Mrs. Murphy, who did not need to make big profits from record projects, because she made a lot of money from her beauty shop, allowed the artists [[P&P) to keep the music publishing rights. But, to physically produce the record, her A&R Man, Dino Courray, asked for the songwriting credits for doing that job [[a deal that he probably already had with her on many record projects). Record companies often told young kids that their songs needed to be "polished up", because they weren't commercial quality. Or companies say "If you want us to record your songs and press up your records, and market them, and get them distributed, you'll have to give us the publishing rights and writers' credits." So Courray was listed as the writer. The recording session took place, and the record was pressed up, and distributed [[probably only regionally [[Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Akron, Indianapolis, Chicago, South Bend, Fort Wayne, etc.). It sold almost nothing. Then, in late 1963 [[maybe a few months later), Mrs. Murphy decided to get out of the record business, completely. But P&P and the rest of The All Stars wanted to have another pressing, and try to get some more sales from their record, and to have a record out to be known as current artists, to help get gigs. So, Mrs. Murphy sent them to Mike Hanks, who still had a good relationship with her, as he had been her first A&R man, and the organiser of her initial efforts to get into the music business, and he ran her early labels [[House of Beauty, Spartan, and the first couple years of Soul and Starmaker, before he left in late 1962, to give full time to his own MAH's label, and to start D-Town. Then Mrs. Murphy hired Dino Courray to manage her labels.

So, with Mrs. Murphy and Dino Courray out of the picture, P&P and The All Stars came to Mike Hanks, who became their new partner in PMP Records [[M could now stand for "Mike" instead of Murphy). Hanks had to put out money to press up the records, and he provided distribution through his MAH'S/D-Town channels, and so took the publishing rights [[MAH's Music) as his "fee" for that service and risk. As the pressing plant code numbers for the 2 cuts are exactly the same as the Murphy pressing, it's clear that Hanks just went back to ARP for pressing up a second batch, but had the label changed to appear less like poppy Jazz, and more like Soul/R&B, so some sales might come from people thinking it might be Junior Walker's All Stars, who were selling records with Harvey and Gwen Fuqua's Harvey Records.

[motownjohnny]

I've had this further piece of information from the seller of the recent PMP disc on Ebay

"The doowop group record on the PMP label that sold recently was by the Deli-Cados. Best, Eric"

I'm now a little confused by his comment, as I'm not sure if this is his clarification in respect of "The All Stars", the group name on the record he sold on Ebay that I originally asked him about, or if it's in respect of a second PMP disc that he had sold previously to "The All Stars" record and therefore one that I was unaware of. I will ask him about this shortly, but before I do, does anyone here know of any other PMP releases or recognise the group name "Deli-Cados". The name means nothing to me and this is the only reference to them I can find:

http://www.45cat.com/artist/the-delicados

The Deli-Cados share this recording on the Norton label, but as the detail on the label is scant and there is no date or address, this may not be the same group as the one the seller on Ebay was referencing, although the song is written by Vic Perdue, who is featured on what seems like an early pressing of the All Stars PMP record. Are "The All Stars" on PMP the same group as "The Deli-Cados" on Norton?

Does PMP just have a Hank Marr connection, or is there a link between him and The Deli-Cados or the Norton label as well?

[johnny_raven]

Evidently, they did record for PMP.

Both sides were written by "H. Perdue" ... A typo, perhaps?

https://www.discogs.com/Deli-Cados-G...elease/9768182

[carole cucumber]

[carole cucumber]

[robb_k]

Evidently, they did record for PMP.

Both sides were written by "H. Perdue" ... A typo, perhaps?

https://www.discogs.com/Deli-Cados-G...elease/9768182

I remember a "Hub" Perdue. Perhaps his birth name was Hubert Victor Perdue, and he used his middle name in his music career. I wonder if he was a member of The Deli-Cados, or just their songwriter? Norton Records is a very recent "Oldies label". So there was no link between Hank Marr and Norton Records. The Birdland All Stars [[Jazz musicians can't possibly be The Delicados [[R&B/DooWop group). But, I would bet that The Delicados on PMP are the same group as that on Norton.

I don't know of any other PMP releases.

[johnny_raven]

I would bet that The Delicados on PMP are the same group as that on Norton.

The A-side of the PMP release is the same as on the Norton 45.

[144man]

Don Waller's "The Motown Story [[1985)", which contained the most accurate Motown discography at the time ascribed no release to Motown 1018.

By 1988, the discographies in David Bianco's "Heat Wave, the Motown Fact Book" and Sharon Davis's "Motown, the History" both included Motown 1018 as the All Stars' "Disintegrated [[Parts 1 & 2), so it is possible that the error first arose as late as between those two dates.

That would be round about the time I saw the record advertised for sale in the Goldmine small ads described as M 1018.

[robb_k]

Don Waller's "The Motown Story [[1985)", which contained the most accurate Motown discography at the time ascribed no release to Motown 1018.

By 1988, the discographies in David Bianco's "Heat Wave, the Motown Fact Book" and Sharon Davis's "Motown, the History" both included Motown 1018 as the All Stars' "Disintegrated [[Parts 1 & 2), so it is possible that the error first arose as late as between those two dates.

That would be round about the time I saw the record advertised for sale in the Goldmine small ads described as M 1018.

I have seen a lot of Motown "inside" official lists, and 1018 was ALWAYS "unassigned".