Supremes/Andantes question [[yes another one)

**marv2** · 03-12-2013, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

Mary Wilson's words in "Dreamgirl"
'Though she would get much heavier over the next few months, she had already gained a little weight, which was enough to affect how our stage costumes fit. Sometimes Diane would want to wear one outfit for a show but couldn't because Flo's no longer fit her.'
'Flo was not a small woman, and with the drinking, she continued to gain weight. Soon the svelte, revealing stage costumes were tight and unflattering. '

Show me a picture of or a videotape of Florence Ballard fat while she was in the Supremes and I will take back what I said. To women that were size 4 or 5, a woman that wore an 8-10 would be considered larger than themselves. Geez. Show me a picture Carole! Thanks

**marv2** · 03-12-2013, 10:44 PM

Carole, here is a picture of Florence Ballard with the Supremes taken June 13, 1967 . This would have been about month before she was fired. She doesn't look fat to me.........

**marv2** · 03-12-2013, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

Poor Flo, by her own choice, became fat and bloated while still a Sup..
and maybe Mary was loud as hell on "Floy Joy" but last time I checked, that album tanked like the Titanic..maybe The Andantes SHOULD have been on there..

Nice try. Instead of inciting a riot, you just sound stupid!

**franjoy56** · 03-12-2013, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by antceleb12

I've read that Florence was so upset over the Andantes being added to "The Happening," she went over to Berry's house to change his mind. Considering Berry didn't take orders from his artists, I'm wondering what kept him from releasing the version with the Andantes.

I wonder when the artists [[Four Tops, Supremes, Vandellas, etc.) found out that their voices were being dubbed or substituted, as well as their reactions. I think that alone is very telling of where they stood on the "fame versus ethics" issue.

Well I think it is wonderful that Berry took a complaint from one of the Supremes and especially Flo who at this time was on shaky ground since that song was recorded in early 1967. Why would the Andantes version have a release when the Supremes were on a hot streak with three previous #1's and the Happening with the original Supremes was the fourth #1. and the unreleased version sounds even better.

**franjoy56** · 03-12-2013, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

First of all Mary put her foot down when Jean terrell was selected when Berry wanted to dismantle the group on the evening after the Farewell Show. The Supremes are noted for the breakthrough singles and albums in 1964 with the record breaking "Where Did Our Love Go" #2 pop #1 r & b album which features the three #1 records by Diana, Mary, & Flo as well as all the tracks on that album everything that came later was built on the foundation set by that breakthrough album and ended with the 1967 Diana Ross and The Supremes Greatest Hits also a #1 album with voices of Ross Wilson and Ballard, anything that came after was secondary, so how is that for cutting it with the original Supremes singers.

**carole cucumber** · 03-12-2013, 11:12 PM

The long flowing gowns served their purpose well. Even [[from reports of the day) rail-thin Diana, sexy Mary , and [[according to Mary) overweight Flo look good. Were those the 'My Favorite Things/Hits Medley' pink gowns worn on Ed Sullivan?

**Jimi LaLumia** · 03-12-2013, 11:18 PM

exactly..they all wore those circus tent gowns so that poor -you-know didn't show..
she sure could have used the Andantes on those ABC Records session for that mediocre solo album... as to that run on sentence above, the two biggest Supremes singles were 'Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" , both by Diana Ross & The Andantes.. the two most still played Supremes tracks on 'Classic Hits" radio...look it up..

**marv2** · 03-12-2013, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

The long flowing gowns served their purpose well. Even [[from reports of the day) rail-thin Diana, sexy Mary , and [[according to Mary) overweight Flo look good. Were those the 'My Favorite Things/Hits Medley' pink gowns worn on Ed Sullivan?

Here they are in tighter gowns. This is also from 1967. Check Florence out. Doesn't look fat to me. I need you to show me a picture of Florence Ballard fat while she was in the Supremes. Thanks.

**franjoy56** · 03-12-2013, 11:42 PM

Mr. la mina: I TAKE EXCEPTION TO THE TONE YOU ARE IMPLYING ON ONE OF OUR BELOVED VOICES IN THE SUPREMES SHE DID NOT LOOK LIKE A FAT CLEANING LADY, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH FULL FIGURED FEMALES, THE SUPREMES LOST A VOCAL SPARK WHEN FLO LEFT, MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.

**franjoy56** · 03-12-2013, 11:45 PM

I beg to differ "baby love" "come see about me" & "where did our love go" are the most played supremes singles of all time, not the andantes filled singles although "love child" might be in the running. 'baby love" held the #1 position for the most weeks of any supremes single.

**jillfoster** · 03-13-2013, 12:13 AM

May, 1967. No fat girls, here...If you want to a fat girl singing, dial up Aretha Franklin

**thisoldheart** · 03-13-2013, 12:17 AM

florence ballard looks voluptuous ... she can't help it if ross was a size 0! hell, they all look great!

**jillfoster** · 03-13-2013, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

and maybe Mary was loud as hell on "Floy Joy" but last time I checked, that album tanked like the Titanic..maybe The Andantes SHOULD have been on there..

The song Floy Joy went to number 16 on the billboard hot 100. Even Diana Ross would kill to have one of those right about now, as it hasn't happened to her in almost 30 years.

**rod_rick** · 03-13-2013, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

True, the entire "Floy Joy" album was recorded in Detroit. Listening to that album I noticed how Smokey purposely brought up, pulled out Mary's and Cindy's vocals so that you hear them more distinctly in the background. Mary is so loud on "You're Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" it just sound more soulful, danceable or whatever. He did great work with Jean, Mary and Cindy. Check out what I am saying here.....

Wow looking at them dancing to Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love, maybe that should have promoted it more, it sounds pretty good here.

**franjoy56** · 03-13-2013, 01:01 AM

Thanks for posting this Marv, I loved that song and Soul Train did the Supremes good with the black fans.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 03-13-2013, 06:19 AM

The andantes were called '3 fat cleaning ladies', so we fight fire with fire... and Flo was deemed fat by 'the boss'..take it up with Mr. Gordy!

smark21 · 03-13-2013, 07:51 AM

Yet another thread that was actually doing well with some thoughtful discussion has been hijacked by so called Supremes fans who are engaged in an insult competition as to which Supreme was the most pathetic and most worthy of scorn and contempt. Good job showing what great supporters you are of the group and its legacy!

smark21 · 03-13-2013, 07:59 AM

No Andantes here and proof how great the Supremes were at their peak.

smark21 · 03-13-2013, 08:02 AM

Another [[though I"m sure will use this to talk about gold records)

smark21 · 03-13-2013, 08:03 AM

One more [[though I'm sure will use this to bitch about the fate of the Jean led group):

**jillfoster** · 03-13-2013, 01:16 PM

Yes, Smark... those are all amazing performances, aren't they? Some issue comes from people's concept of what makes good backing vocals. Some feel they should "blend" and not stick out in any way, others feel they should have some pizazz. My main issue is that I feel 95% of the Andantes work basically has no soul. I know Motown liked to use them because they were cheap, and able to arrange their harmonies quickly, therefore making the recording process more fast and efficient. But quick and mass produced always makes QUALITY suffer. Many times the songs themselves and the production was so good it didn't matter, but make no mistake... those songs weren't hits BECAUSE of the Andantes, they were hits in SPITE of them. If they were THAT important, they would have brought their asses out to L.A., but that didn't happen, did it? And most others in the music business preferred to use backing vocalists with much more color and resonance in their voices, look at how Doris Troy is renowned for her work on Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon". Or What would Culture Club's records be like without Helen Terry? Just two examples of many.

**thisoldheart** · 03-13-2013, 01:36 PM

or merry clayton on the stones' "gimme shelter" ...

**thisoldheart** · 03-13-2013, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by jillfoster

Which one would you rather put onstage?

Attachment 6350

that's cruel. i would put anyone on stage who could sing .... this is turning ugly ... grow up!

**Roberta75** · 03-13-2013, 01:58 PM

Have you no shame or decency Jimi la Lumia or jillfoster? Posting photos and calling ladies fat is so immature for 2 grown men you ought to hang your heads in shame. What if one of Flos kids reads this board or one of the Andanttes lady reads this board or someone who is real concious about they weight. Its childish and immature and wrong. May God forgive the both of you.

Roberta

**ralpht** · 03-13-2013, 02:20 PM

Roberta is right guys. Show a little respect. Besides if you want the honest truth, the best back-up singers were usually a little over weight. And I loved them dearly. So show some respect here. This has been a great thread so far. Don't mess it up.

**midnight johnny** · 03-13-2013, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by ralpht

Roberta is right guys. Show a little respect. Besides if you want the honest truth, the best back-up singers were usually a little over weight. And I loved them dearly. So show some respect here. This has been a great thread so far. Don't mess it up.

And let's give equal time to a few of the great thinner ones too...Telma Hopkins, Joyce Vincent, Valerie Simpson, Ullanda McCullough and Madeline Bell!

**floyjoy678** · 03-13-2013, 02:59 PM

Florence being replaced on "You Can't Hurry Love" does make sense, I have a clip of the girls lip-syncing the song on a show hosted by Cousin Brucie in the summer of 1966 so it must've been one of the first times they performed it and Florence misses several parts throughout the song. She also said in an interview that she loved every single one of the songs they put out except for one, I wonder if she was referring to "You Can't Hurry Love". Regarding her weight I wouldn't go as far as calling her fat but she did gain weight between 1965 and 1966/67. Look at their appearance on Hullabaloo singing "Back In My Arms Again" and then look at her a year later when they perform "My World Is Empty Without You" on Ed Sullivan. There were rumors back then that she was pregnant. But I don't think it made her look bad she looked sexier in my opinion. From late 1966 to her firing from the group I think Flo looked her best. As far as calling the Andantes fat that's just in bad taste. And Mary and Florence could sound boring sometimes too especially on those A Go Go sessions then again Diana did too.

**ralpht** · 03-13-2013, 03:32 PM

No argument there, Midnight. Telma and Joyce were always my back-up singers. We had history that went all the way back to Golden World and Tera Shirma.

**calvin** · 03-13-2013, 07:08 PM

I'm coming a bit late to this thread with a couple of tangential remarks to posts made yesterday...

Regarding The Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew. I think all Beach Boys fans know this story, starting with Pet Sounds. But that's no fraud - that album is a Brian Wilson creative tour de force, and the boys did do vocals on it. And as far as I know, they were pretty open about how that album was made. Note also that "Caroline, No", which only had Brian Wilson vocals [[and so no contribution from the other band members), was released as a single at the time - and credited to Brian Wilson, not to the Beach Boys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline,_no

Regarding Bernard Purdie - there is nothing more than his claim that he drummed for the Beatles, there is no evidence. And there are many reasons not to believe this claim. But that's a topic for another thread on another forum.

**thisoldheart** · 03-13-2013, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by calvin

I'm coming a bit late to this thread with a couple of tangential remarks to posts made yesterday...

Regarding The Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew. I think all Beach Boys fans know this story, starting with Pet Sounds. But that's no fraud - that album is a Brian Wilson creative tour de force, and the boys did do vocals on it. And as far as I know, they were pretty open about how that album was made. Note also that "Caroline, No", which only had Brian Wilson vocals [[and so no contribution from the other band members), was released as a single at the time - and credited to Brian Wilson, not to the Beach Boys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline,_no

Regarding Bernard Purdie - there is nothing more than his claim that he drummed for the Beatles, there is no evidence. And there are many reasons not to believe this claim. But that's a topic for another thread on another forum.

... what i was tryin' to say, but you put much more eloquently.

**marv2** · 03-13-2013, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Thanks for posting this Marv, I loved that song and Soul Train did the Supremes good with the black fans.

It was a very underrated JAM! It was perfect to me on all counts.

**marv2** · 03-13-2013, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by thisoldheart

or merry clayton on the stones' "gimme shelter" ...

Merry Clayton, ahhh, yes! She has also said that she is one of the backing vocalists on "Someday We'll Be Together" along with the Waters.

smark21 · 03-13-2013, 08:33 PM

Well the ultimate session singer substituting for the group screw job is still when Phil Spector had Darlene Love and session singers record “He’s A Rebel” and then slapping the Crystals’ name on the 45. Great record, but unfair to the Crystals and unfair to Darlene Love.

**jillfoster** · 03-13-2013, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by smark21

Well the ultimate session singer substituting for the group screw job is still when Phil Spector had Darlene Love and session singers record “He’s A Rebel” and then slapping the Crystals’ name on the 45. Great record, but unfair to the Crystals and unfair to Darlene Love.

Yeah, you're right... that one pretty much trumps them all.

alexgarret · 03-13-2013, 09:51 PM

I'm curious jillfoster - did you delete your post of "who would you rather put on stage" or did Ralph? It was extremely in poor taste - but you seem to enjoy mocking people's appearance. You must be one hell of a good looking person.

**ralpht** · 03-13-2013, 10:21 PM

Alex,
I deleted the pic. Yes it was in poor taste.

alexgarret · 03-13-2013, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by ralpht

Alex,
I deleted the pic. Yes it was in poor taste.

Thanks Ralph - can't believe what some people think is humor. I assume that picture was Louvane [[sp?) or one of the Andantes. She seems like a lovely woman. Hopefully you nixed it before too many people saw it.

**Kamasu_Jr** · 03-13-2013, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by ralpht

No argument there, Midnight. Telma and Joyce were always my back-up singers. We had history that went all the way back to Golden World and Tera Shirma.

All right Ralph. Telma and Joyce are my babies. They gave Tony Orlando soul. He ain't done nothing without them since he split up the act. They were also some of Detroit's finest session singers. And true, some of the best singers have been heavy. Mahalia used to call her heftiness her sangin' weight.

**franjoy56** · 03-13-2013, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Roberta75

Have you no shame or decency Jimi la Lumia or jillfoster? Posting photos and calling ladies fat is so immature for 2 grown men you ought to hang your heads in shame. What if one of Flos kids reads this board or one of the Andanttes lady reads this board or someone who is real concious about they weight. Its childish and immature and wrong. May God forgive the both of you.

Roberta

Thanks Roberta for bringing up the behavior of the members in question, I think one of them needs to be verbally reprimanded, by the administratior, I am appauled by his behavior and outright disdain for the Supremes, if he does not have anything nice to say he should be banned from this sight because his words are destructive, and it upsets different points of view, We don't need to take up anything with Mr. Gordy, we are expressing our opinions and what Gordy did back in the day is on him as the manager of Motown, we are fans who loved the music and the original artists who performed the songs.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 03-13-2013, 11:11 PM

I happen to be a Supremes fan since 1964, which these days is more of a conceptual thing with new revelations popping up everyday..
when mud is thrown at the ultra talented Andantes, who became 'the Motown Sound', then others may be inclined to pick up a handful in response,,
some folks can't deal with the facts being provided here, and they'll just have to get over it..Mary Wilson talked about Flo's weight issues in her "Dreamgirl.." book, so maybe you can take this up with Ms. Wilson..

**nomis** · 03-13-2013, 11:25 PM

On the Flo weight issue..we have to look at it in the context of the actual time and not what we know with hindsight and the changing trends that have prevailed over the ensuing decades - its 1967 Twiggy was the rage reed thin was where it was in fashion - right or wrong on the moral spectrum - annorexia thin was in and Diana played no small part in this fashion conception her pain angst at the turmoil in the group and that sadistic workload made her eating issues the new fashion rage..only a decade earlier Flo's figure had been all the rage thanks to Marilyn Monroe..just as Joan crawfords broad shouldered figure had been the decan of envy a decade before Marilyn..but 1967 was all about Diana and Twiggy's size and look..like so many things to do with Blondie fate played against her she was slightly buxom..not fat but Berry used that word as a weapon against her which I have no doubt led to her addiction of diet pills and finally the blood clots that killed her...

**franjoy56** · 03-14-2013, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by nomis

On the Flo weight issue..we have to look at it in the context of the actual time and not what we know with hindsight and the changing trends that have prevailed over the ensuing decades - its 1967 Twiggy was the rage reed thin was where it was in fashion - right or wrong on the moral spectrum - annorexia thin was in and Diana played no small part in this fashion conception her pain angst at the turmoil in the group and that sadistic workload made her eating issues the new fashion rage..only a decade earlier Flo's figure had been all the rage thanks to Marilyn Monroe..just as Joan crawfords broad shouldered figure had been the decan of envy a decade before Marilyn..but 1967 was all about Diana and Twiggy's size and look..like so many things to do with Blondie fate played against her she was slightly buxom..not fat but Berry used that word as a weapon against her which I have no doubt led to her addiction of diet pills and finally the blood clots that killed her...

We don't care what weapon Gordy used against whom, all i know is that Flo was a major part of the Supremes and without her talent, in the background and on the leads she did albums cuts, and as part of the trio during their heyday they would not have made it, It disturbs me greatly when I hear words like "fat cleaning lady" and other disruptive pronouns, we should respect people without name calling, and I don't like Jim Lamina's comments, and it must be stopped.

**jillfoster** · 03-14-2013, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Kamasu_Jr

All right Ralph. Telma and Joyce are my babies. They gave Tony Orlando soul. He ain't done nothing without them. They were also some of Detroit's finest session singers. And true, some of the best singers have been heavy. Mahalia used to call it her singing weight.

Yes he did... it's called "Halfway To Paradise", and "Bless You". BUT.. I don't care to hear him without Telma and Joyce, to be honest. Those two girls are the BOMB. I can't say enough good things about them.

**franjoy56** · 03-14-2013, 02:13 AM

and disrespect toward the Andantes is also showing disrespect as well toward the Motown family. Fat or skinny people have a right to express their talent no matter how they look.

**Kamasu_Jr** · 03-14-2013, 07:42 AM

Few really remember Bless You or Halfway To Paradise by Tony Orlando. They don't get played on oldies radio where I live. They might have been minor hits, but he's best remembered for what he did in the 1970s. I also meant that I've not cared for him since he broke up the Tony & Dawn act. He didn't realize that it was not all about him. There was a time in the music business [[pre music videos and red carpet events) when it was no big deal if a singer was hefty, some of the best ones were. I did notice on the Supremes' tribute on Swingin' Time [[that old show) that Florence Ballard seemed needlessly defensive about her weight. It was brought up several times. Once she thought Robin Seymour was talking about weight, but he wasn't. And she brought it up [[her weight ) several times. It wasn't important to me, but I could sense an issue was being made of it somewhere. The Andantes had one member who was plump or heavy, big deal! She looked like my cousin Punkin [[who was a big girl), and I love me some Cousin Punkin. Personally, my uncle had weight issues for most of his life. He's been dieting since he was 14 in the 1960s. His weight would come down and he'd put it back on. It made him terribly unhappy and depressed throughout his life and no matter how much we reassured him that we loved him and it didn't matter because he was a good dude; He still obsessed over his weight. Now he's thinner because of illness. He's happier, but his health is fragile because of all of that yo-yo dieting and earlier weight issues. I'm really sensitive about peoples' weight because I've seen so many heavy people get their feelings hurt over something that some of them can't help or have have other serious reasons for why they are heavy.

**Penny** · 03-14-2013, 07:52 AM

Cass Elliot was a favorite back in the day. Her weight was never discussed and everyone loved her. I just hate that someone's weight is being used as a club here. We can argue about business decisions and maybe for Berry it was. I don't know. I loved Florence as a Supreme. The group was going in a direction that Florence didn't like. She would have left the group anyway. Florence didn't have the heart for the business side of the industry.

I have been wide across the beam in the past so you can make fun of me, too.

I hurts me that an Andante, and they have been to this site before, would read some of this trash. They helped make the sound we so love.

Penny

A Sad AVON Rep

**Jimi LaLumia** · 03-14-2013, 09:12 AM

and for the record the 'fat cleaning ladies' line was used by someone, who is not me, against The Andantes,,
I luved Mama Cass, but to this day, people still tell the untrue story that Cass died by choking on a ham sandwhich, implying that all she did was eat..there is nothing funny about the dangers of weight, on the heart, etc..
and in 'show' 'business', the 'show' part has to do with visuals, and the reality, especially for females [[ask any tv newscaster), is that weight does play a part in who does or does not get to be seen by the money spending public..
the fabulous Jennifer Hudson, who should have won "American Idol", didn't even make the Top Three, and her weight at the time was a national discussion point on the internet [[and look what role she was cast in, for "Dreamgirls")..
I think Unsung needs to look at creating an episode on The Andantes..

**mysterysinger** · 03-14-2013, 11:31 AM

Tony Orlando is well respected for his earlier work - "Halfway to Paradise" and "Bless You" are classics. Jimmy Ruffin, of course, did decent versions of both on his "Top Ten"/"Way" album. Billy Fury's version of HTP is bigger in the UK. However, it is very true to say that Tony's most remembered work was with Dawn and that was a very successful partnership of all 3 personnel [[and others). I think "Bless You" has more soul than "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" but then who really cares about that - we like what we like.

**midnight johnny** · 03-14-2013, 04:39 PM

"Tie A Yellow Ribbon" wan't supposed to have soul....it was PURE POP...that's why it sold a gazillion copies!

**jillfoster** · 03-14-2013, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Penny

Cass Elliot was a favorite back in the day. Her weight was never discussed and everyone loved her. I just hate that someone's weight is being used as a club here. We can argue about business decisions and maybe for Berry it was. I don't know. I loved Florence as a Supreme. The group was going in a direction that Florence didn't like. She would have left the group anyway. Florence didn't have the heart for the business side of the industry.

I have been wide across the beam in the past so you can make fun of me, too.

I hurts me that an Andante, and they have been to this site before, would read some of this trash. They helped make the sound we so love.

Penny

A Sad AVON Rep

Penny, Mama Cass may have been fat, but like I stated she had shitloads of everything ELSE a person could want in a performer, so her weight didn't matter... or in the end it did.. because I wished she would have been around to record and perform for 30 more years. What I was stating .... is that in the music business, a fat girl with mediocre talent will not make it, but a beautiful girl with mediocre talent CAN [[Look at 3/4 of the female singers today) And my point was that I felt the Andantes were a mediocre talent as far as their SOUND [[They probably had other talents, such as being able to quickly arrange vocal harmonies) but also like I pointed out, they DID have moments of greatness.