Supremes/Andantes question [[yes another one)

[marv2]

That's Mary and Cindy. Apparently Frank Wilson got them to do the background vocals twice to give a full voiced effect. He thought the one take background vocal wouldn't work. That was the reverse of "Up the Ladder to the Roof", which did include the Andantes along with Mary and Cindy.

Jean Terrell also sang the background with Mary and Cindy. Three part harmony sometimes sounds better and definitely fuller than 2 part harmony.

[midnightman]

To the OP, I think you should've said "Stoned Love" at the beginning of the thread...

[thisoldheart]

four points:

1. who sings background on this live recording? ... sounds like the andantes to me. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CjXByFCQ-I8 ... so even the backups are dubbed!

2. the supremes are a special case in pop music history. gordy heavily promoted them from "where did our love go" forward. he knew they had a very good chance of breaking the color barrier. he was right. they did. everybody in 1964/65/66/67 knew all of their names [[this changed with birdsong and the group's decline and ross's rise). so they were a group more like the beach boys, beatles and stones, and promoted as such. "more hits by the supremes" has their signatures on the front cover. so, adding or swapping wilson, ballard, or birdsong for the andantes would be tantamount to having singers fill in for the beatles. this never happened to the beatles, stones, or beach boys.

3. gordy fooled me as a kid ... but i think it is high time these records are correctly attributed for pop music history's sake. hip-o-select should make an even greater effort to get the correct track info on each record. i was amazed to see how "marvin and tammi: the complete sessions" says in the booklet that valerie simpson is singing on 10 of the12 "easy" tracks, but the track listing says the same songs are by gaye & terrell. they aren't even consistent in their booklet! sloppy!

4. "motown: the musical is even going to simplify and perpetuate these myths further. i so wish people were actually interested in music, than in fake simplified versions of life!

[Methuselah2]

Well, it certainly has been quite a go-round on this thread today, hasn't it? Just read straight through it and found many worthwhile points to consider--from both sides, actually.

But it was impossible not to notice something that was scattered throughout--and that is, the immediate issue at-hand became tangled with some criticism of members who are invested in the issue to begin with. And I've seen the same thing occur in other threads time and time again. To me, it always seems beside the point. And sometimes, it seems to be precisely the point, too, for some. But in this thread, it all seemed to proceed with civility, and that was noticeable, as well. And appreciated.

Another thing caught my attention: LuvHangOva's omelette analogy--simple, direct, clear, and it zeroed in easily and succinctly, I thought. In seemed to escapsulate the point being made. And that same posting mentioned the word "disappointing" in reference to what transpired in the production of some recordings and their marketing. And that seemed to be just the word that some of us may have been looking for.

And so, dinner tonight was--here it comes--an omelette [[although with Cheddar cheese). With STOP! IN THE NAME OF LOVE playing in--here it comes again--the background.

But due to Floyjoy's mention of what may have been involved with RUN, RUN, RUN--which I had not seen brought up before--I skipped dessert.

And so, first and foremost on tomorrow's agenda: Dessert.

[thisoldheart]

...Another thing caught my attention: LuvHangOva's omelette analogy--simple, direct, clear, and it zeroed in easily and succinctly, I thought. In seemed to escapsulate the point being made. And that same posting mentioned the word "disappointing" in reference to what transpired in the production of some recordings and their marketing ..l

i am "disappointed", but you can't change what happened decades ago ... however, future releases need to be historically accurate ... or as historically accurate as possible. i don't see this happening with the upcoming records released to cash in on the broadway show, but i do hope they are carefully annotated on the four tops & martha & the vandellas upcoming rather expensive and thorough multi-volume sets. these are clearly aimed at collectors, and should be treated as accurate historic documents.

[reese]

2. the supremes are a special case in pop music history. gordy heavily promoted them from "where did our love go" forward. he knew they had a very good chance of breaking the color barrier. he was right. they did. everybody in 1964/65/66/67 knew all of their names [[this changed with birdsong and the group's decline and ross's rise). so they were a group more like the beach boys, beatles and stones, and promoted as such. "more hits by the supremes" has their signatures on the front cover. so, adding or swapping wilson, ballard, or birdsong for the andantes would be tantamount to having singers fill in for the beatles. this never happened to the beatles, stones, or beach boys.

Back in the 80s, it was revealed that on some early Beatles recordings, other musicians were used to overdub parts. Famed drummer Bernard Purdie was quoted as saying that he dubbed over Ringo's track. He went on to say that some other musicians did the same, but he was told to keep out of it.

I have no idea what the Beatles fans thought of this, or how widespead the news became. But I would gather it might have been the same reaction as when some fans discovered that the Andantes were on some of the female group recordings.

[144man]

It was fraud then and it is fraud now. Fraud is defined as the willful and knowing practice of deceit for profit or gain. Defining "The Supremes" as Diana, Mary and Florence [[or Cindy) and then knowingly replacing them with singers who don't get credited is deceit and therefore fraud. The question is whether or not there was a specific statute in the 1960s dealing with it, which there wasn't. So Motown and many others got away with it, but there is simply no justification for it.

It might sound all innocent and we can put it in the context of "everybody did it" but it still doesn't mean it isn't fraudulent. Think of all the African-Americans who were ripped off of everything through such practices in the 1950s.

Its sad that it always comes up in the context of Supremes' fan factionalism. There were so many others who were not as fortunate as the girls were and had no money, no fortune, no fame.

I stand by my original statement. I think the legal position was fluid at the time, and is bound up in who had ownership of the names of the groups.

That does not mean that the situation was desirable - just that there is no point in making lofty moral judgements. We're never going to get everyone to agree on who sung on which songs, so unfortunately, not everyone will get the credit in exactly the right measures they deserve.

You can't change the past. It's time for us all to get over it and to move on.

[Penny]

I stand by my original statement. I think the legal position was fluid at the time, and is bound up in who had ownership of the names of the groups.

That does not mean that the situation was desirable - just that there is no point in making lofty moral judgements. We're never going to get everyone to agree on who sung on which songs, so unfortunately, not everyone will get the credit in exactly the right measures they deserve.

You can't change the past. It's time for us all to get over it and to move on.

144man, I agree. It is time to move on. Mary Wilson herself told me at a concert in San Diego one time "Penny, be careful what you think you hear!" And she was right. Those songs were beautiful. A lot of people worked on them and it is hard capturing that musical magic. The producers did what they could with what they had to work with and they used many tools to get the job done. As simple as that.

I love the music. I listen to it to this day. Motown is my music and I love it. A good day or a bad day Motown is there for me.

Penny

[motony]

well I hate to tell Beach Boys fans this but on most of their records the Wrecking Crew provided the music.Other musicians were used on alot of Beatles & Stones later recordings[[and background vocalists too).,

[floyjoy678]

motony you are right about the Beach Boys, Dennis hardly ever did his own drumming on their recordings. As a Beach Boys fan when I found that out again it didn't take anything away from them to me because they still went out on the road and performed all those songs night after night. Another group that had other background singers are the Vogues on their hit "Magic Town" that's only the lead singer Bill and tenor Hugh on that song, the other guys were replaced by studio singers.
And midnightman I guess I should've just said it was "Stoned Love" when I first made this thread but I know how sensitive some Supremes fans are so I just kept my mouth shut.

[thisoldheart]

well I hate to tell Beach Boys fans this but on most of their records the Wrecking Crew provided the music.Other musicians were used on alot of Beatles & Stones later recordings[[and background vocalists too).,

i didn't mean to imply that other people didn't play on beach boys, stones, or beatles records. i am well aware of the wrecking crew [[the west coast equivalent to the funk bros), and the stones and the beatles had orchestras and guest friends play on their records. but no one filled in for the voice of mick, keith, brian, lennon, ect. there is a big difference between coming in and playing as a guest on an album, and pretending you are singing the part of a famous vocalist!

[franjoy56]

motony you are right about the Beach Boys, Dennis hardly ever did his own drumming on their recordings. As a Beach Boys fan when I found that out again it didn't take anything away from them to me because they still went out on the road and performed all those songs night after night. Another group that had other background singers are the Vogues on their hit "Magic Town" that's only the lead singer Bill and tenor Hugh on that song, the other guys were replaced by studio singers.
And midnightman I guess I should've just said it was "Stoned Love" when I first made this thread but I know how sensitive some Supremes fans are so I just kept my mouth shut.

Well thank goodness "Stoned Love" cannot be claimed by any one other than Jean Mary & Cindy, because that was their crown jewel selling well over 1 million copies, yet it only peaked at #7 but r&b charts ate it up at #1, and so was "UP the Ladder to the Roof" a crown jewel which sold over 800,000 copies.

[antceleb12]

It amazes me that Motown fans take it so personally that the Andantes were not only used as "sweetening" but filled in for the actualgroup members. There is nothing personal about it. Whomever was used for whatever reason was merely part of the creative process. Also, it wasn't unusual for record companies to use background singers and not credit them. And clearly, one reason why the Andantes were used had to do with fact that the Andantes could vocalize in ways that the group members couldn't. And that was the producer's call. The producers were looking for a particular sound. I never read any complaints about the fact that on a number of the tracks that Ashford and Simpson produced, Supremes or Vandellas or Marvelettes didn't back up the lead singer.....Ashford and Simpson did, and nothing was on the album credits about that[[Some Things You Never get Used To, Keep An Eye, Destination Anywhere, We're a Winner.........).

I take it personally because, as a singer myself, if I found out that my vocals were being dubbed by someone else, I would be LIVID - as were many of the artists. Just because that was common practice doesn't make it right. Payola was common, but is that right? If a producer was trying to get a certain sound, and I'm not the right sound, replacing my voice with someone else is deceptive and fake.

Fans who have spent their money on countless records, believing that those who sang on it were who we were told was on it, finding out after all these years that only ONE of those people actually did the singing. For example, the Supremes. By the end, the records became more like Diana Ross solo albums, with Cindy and Mary not singing a note on a LOT of tracks.

As for the Andantes themselves, while I do feel they did contribute the "sound" we all know as the Motown sound, there is a reason why they were not credited. Nobody wants to look at a Tops album cover and see that the Four Tops' sweet harmonies were embellished [[or replaced entirely) by three female singers. Or see that the latest Martha & the Vandellas single is really Martha backed by three women no one knows about. And artists were pissed. And rightfully so. Mary & Cindy lip-syncing to "Love Child" on national TV is like Milli Vanilli lip-syncing to "their" records. Dishonest!

Now if we're going to say that substituting the artists with the Andantes is not a big deal, that it was a common practice, let's look at it this way. It was common practice to add studio musicians into the mix, true. But it was also common practice to not give them written credit on album notes. So if we're going to say that adding in studio musicians [[that's what the Andantes were - studio musicians. Not an act making a name for itself) such as the Andantes was not a big deal, then we also have to say that Motown not giving them credit was just as normal.

Let's face it. Adding in extra [[or entirely new voices) voices to the background was a form of manipulation in the same way that autotune is: they both produced a sound not produced by the original singer/s, and they both changed the sound, they both provided a sound that would bring in the dough at the end of the day. The big difference is that Motown was much more discreet in how they altered the sound of their singers.

I still listen to the records. I still listen to "Love Child," "Ask the Lonely," and "I'm Ready for Love." When I first got the Supremes "Lost & Found" set, I had "MacArthur Park" on repeat for ages! But now when I listen, I always wonder what it would have sounded like with the original artists on it. And I get it that sometimes there was just no time to get Mary & Cindy or whoever into the studio to lay down their part, but still. I love Motown to death, and will listen to it for the rest of my life, but I've realized that as special as Motown is, it was a business. It had to make money, so it provided the sound that would bring in the $$$ - even if it meant substituting the artist for someone else.

[antceleb12]

Methuselah,
Think about it: The movie industry uses a stunt double when good old James Bond gets in one of his jams. That is pretty much common knowledge, but it doesn't distract from enjoying the movie.
I'm just sayin'....

I think the difference is that with the stunt double, it's a safety issue. They need someone trained. I'm sure if the original actor was capable of doing those stunts, the movie company would rather save money and not hire the double.

With records, yes, it's a convenience issue, but unlike the movies, this practice was done without the artist's consent - not that their consent mattered when legal matters were concerned.

[midnightman]

well I hate to tell Beach Boys fans this but on most of their records the Wrecking Crew provided the music.Other musicians were used on alot of Beatles & Stones later recordings[[and background vocalists too).,

Mmhmm... they also used different background singers. So again, why single out the Supremes? Especially during THAT period.

[midnightman]

motony you are right about the Beach Boys, Dennis hardly ever did his own drumming on their recordings. As a Beach Boys fan when I found that out again it didn't take anything away from them to me because they still went out on the road and performed all those songs night after night. Another group that had other background singers are the Vogues on their hit "Magic Town" that's only the lead singer Bill and tenor Hugh on that song, the other guys were replaced by studio singers.
And midnightman I guess I should've just said it was "Stoned Love" when I first made this thread but I know how sensitive some Supremes fans are so I just kept my mouth shut.

I understand. But it's kind of a "damn if you do, damn if you don't" kind of thing with the Supremes no matter what period. I understand most people here are Supremes fanatics/stans/whatever but this is nuts LMAO!

[midnightman]

Well thank goodness "Stoned Love" cannot be claimed by any one other than Jean Mary & Cindy, because that was their crown jewel selling well over 1 million copies, yet it only peaked at #7 but r&b charts ate it up at #1, and so was "UP the Ladder to the Roof" a crown jewel which sold over 800,000 copies.

I think the "title" got the airplay for that song slighted. Otherwise, it would've been a number-one hit based on airplay alone. The Temptations were able to get away with it with "Cloud Nine" [[though the song didn't mention marijuana, just mention "being on cloud nine", as an actual place, guess it was hippie-ish but whatever lol) but the Supremes' song title was more BLUNT lmao and that song wasn't about weed either haha

[smark21]

I think the difference is that with the stunt double, it's a safety issue. They need someone trained. I'm sure if the original actor was capable of doing those stunts, the movie company would rather save money and not hire the double.

With records, yes, it's a convenience issue, but unlike the movies, this practice was done without the artist's consent - not that their consent mattered when legal matters were concerned.

Not to mention, but the group’s account was charged against royalties for the use of The Andantes on the recording in place of some of the members. So not only were members shut out of the session, they had to pay for the services of their substitutes, which must have been really galling when the members may have been willing to come to the studio to do the work themselves.

[jobeterob]

Well I still don't think it was that significant but it does make me wonder about Milli Vanilli similarities; and also why Florence got mad ~ it wasn't just Diana becoming a star, but Flo wasn't even there sometimes, even early on; and also Mary's bitterness over time and Berry's comments about "you finally learned to sing". All of that takes on a somewhat different blush when you learn the Andantes and others were on so many songs. And every time I listen to a Supremes song ~ I wonder who it is; like the end of Reflections on the #1's ~ that doesn't sound like a Supreme.

[ralpht]

Yeah, true, Smark. But then maybe because of the Andantes they had a big record and got paid all those royalties and money from appearances. And the poor Andantes walked away with a session paycheck.

[Methuselah2]

I take it personally because, as a singer myself, if I found out that my vocals were being dubbed by someone else, I would be LIVID - as were many of the artists. Just because that was common practice doesn't make it right. Payola was common, but is that right? If a producer was trying to get a certain sound, and I'm not the right sound, replacing my voice with someone else is deceptive and fake.

Fans who have spent their money on countless records, believing that those who sang on it were who we were told was on it, finding out after all these years that only ONE of those people actually did the singing. For example, the Supremes. By the end, the records became more like Diana Ross solo albums, with Cindy and Mary not singing a note on a LOT of tracks.

As for the Andantes themselves, while I do feel they did contribute the "sound" we all know as the Motown sound, there is a reason why they were not credited. Nobody wants to look at a Tops album cover and see that the Four Tops' sweet harmonies were embellished [[or replaced entirely) by three female singers. Or see that the latest Martha & the Vandellas single is really Martha backed by three women no one knows about. And artists were pissed. And rightfully so. Mary & Cindy lip-syncing to "Love Child" on national TV is like Milli Vanilli lip-syncing to "their" records. Dishonest!

Now if we're going to say that substituting the artists with the Andantes is not a big deal, that it was a common practice, let's look at it this way. It was common practice to add studio musicians into the mix, true. But it was also common practice to not give them written credit on album notes. So if we're going to say that adding in studio musicians [[that's what the Andantes were - studio musicians. Not an act making a name for itself) such as the Andantes was not a big deal, then we also have to say that Motown not giving them credit was just as normal.

Let's face it. Adding in extra [[or entirely new voices) voices to the background was a form of manipulation in the same way that autotune is: they both produced a sound not produced by the original singer/s, and they both changed the sound, they both provided a sound that would bring in the dough at the end of the day. The big difference is that Motown was much more discreet in how they altered the sound of their singers.

I still listen to the records. I still listen to "Love Child," "Ask the Lonely," and "I'm Ready for Love." When I first got the Supremes "Lost & Found" set, I had "MacArthur Park" on repeat for ages! But now when I listen, I always wonder what it would have sounded like with the original artists on it. And I get it that sometimes there was just no time to get Mary & Cindy or whoever into the studio to lay down their part, but still. I love Motown to death, and will listen to it for the rest of my life, but I've realized that as special as Motown is, it was a business. It had to make money, so it provided the sound that would bring in the $$$ - even if it meant substituting the artist for someone else.

Antceleb - I'm in complete agreement with you. I thank you for delineating it so clearly and thoroughly. And most of all--insightfully. It's an intricate issue because it hits many spots for a number of us who are fans of the artists and their work and their treatment, as well as being fans of Motown as a business entity. And you managed to hit every spot. Well done!

[antceleb12]

I've read that Florence was so upset over the Andantes being added to "The Happening," she went over to Berry's house to change his mind. Considering Berry didn't take orders from his artists, I'm wondering what kept him from releasing the version with the Andantes.

I wonder when the artists [[Four Tops, Supremes, Vandellas, etc.) found out that their voices were being dubbed or substituted, as well as their reactions. I think that alone is very telling of where they stood on the "fame versus ethics" issue.

[Methuselah2]

I think the difference is that with the stunt double, it's a safety issue. They need someone trained. I'm sure if the original actor was capable of doing those stunts, the movie company would rather save money and not hire the double.

With records, yes, it's a convenience issue, but unlike the movies, this practice was done without the artist's consent - not that their consent mattered when legal matters were concerned.

Antceleb - Again, I totally concur with you. Relatedly, here's a comment I posted last Friday on the "Marvin and Tammi's Easy Album" thread:

This has been a very interesting thread. Unfortunately, the issues and concerns at the center of it may never get answered with any final or official response unless, perhaps, the producers of the recordings in question come forward with the actual production specifics. I would like to think that the discussions that come up about this are a means of leading to the information that many, including myself, would like to know. It could happen but, for now, it seems highly unlikely. As The Marvelettes once sang, THE TRUTH'S OUTSIDE MY DOOR. If only it were.

What's so unsettling is that one's admiration towards certain recordings and very specific artists is now re-mixed with doubt. The movie business has always used stand-ins, stunt doubles, body doubles, special effects, editing, you-name-it--all to produce a desired effect. It's distressing to realize that--in some cases--the record business could proceed along the same lines. And any such decisions to do so may have been made directly for the sake of expediency rather than any pointed attempt at misleading. But in the end, something may have been advertised and promoted as one thing when, in fact, it wasn't quite that. And there's the rub that's troublesome. And baby, I can't scratch it.

[antceleb12]

Antceleb - Again, I totally concur with you. Relatedly, here's a comment I posted last Friday on the "Marvin and Tammi's Easy Album" thread:

This has been a very interesting thread. Unfortunately, the issues and concerns at the center of it may never get answered with any final or official response unless, perhaps, the producers of the recordings in question come forward with the actual production specifics. I would like to think that the discussions that come up about this are a means of leading to the information that many, including myself, would like to know. It could happen but, for now, it seems highly unlikely. As The Marvelettes once sang, THE TRUTH'S OUTSIDE MY DOOR. If only it were.

What's so unsettling is that one's admiration towards certain recordings and very specific artists is now re-mixed with doubt. The movie business has always used stand-ins, stunt doubles, body doubles, special effects, editing, you-name-it--all to produce a desired effect. It's distressing to realize that--in some cases--the record business could proceed along the same lines. And any such decisions to do so may have been made directly for the sake of expediency rather than any pointed attempt at misleading. But in the end, something may have been advertised and promoted as one thing when, in fact, it wasn't quite that. And there's the rub that's troublesome. And baby, I can't scratch it.

Thanks, Methuselah! It's a shame that these practices exist, but it would be truly fascinating to hear it from the producer's side, regarding the circumstances surrounding a particular recording or session.

[midnightman]

I give up. LOL

[marv2]

Well I still don't think it was that significant but it does make me wonder about Milli Vanilli similarities; and also why Florence got mad ~ it wasn't just Diana becoming a star, but Flo wasn't even there sometimes, even early on; and also Mary's bitterness over time and Berry's comments about "you finally learned to sing". All of that takes on a somewhat different blush when you learn the Andantes and others were on so many songs. And every time I listen to a Supremes song ~ I wonder who it is; like the end of Reflections on the #1's ~ that doesn't sound like a Supreme.

Those are the Supremes on Reflections [[Mary Wilson, Diana Ross, Florence Ballard). Berry was teasing Mary. He always knew she was a great singer. He wrote a song for her called "Baby Don't Go" back in 1961 and she sounded great. He was kidding. The Real Supremes are on the majority of their recordings by the way.

[Methuselah2]

. . . Considering Berry didn't take orders from his artists, I'm wondering what kept him from releasing the version with the Andantes.

An interesting side-note: When Andante Louvain Demps appeared on WOMR's great radio show NIGHTFLIGHT [[womr.org), she spoke about once going to talk to Berry in his office. She didn't go into specifics about what it was about but she did mention that she had greatly regretted ever doing it, that by the time she left his office she was completely diminished.

[marv2]

An interesting side-note: When Andante Louvain Demps appeared on WOMR's great radio show NIGHTFLIGHT [[womr.org), she spoke about once going to talk to Berry in his office. She didn't go into specifics about what it was about but she did mention that she had greatly regretted ever doing it, that by the time she left his office she was completely diminished.

Makes you wonder why Motown never promoted the Andantes as a group.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

[jobeterob]

An interesting side-note: When Andante Louvain Demps appeared on WOMR's great radio show NIGHTFLIGHT [[womr.org), she spoke about once going to talk to Berry in his office. She didn't go into specifics about what it was about but she did mention that she had greatly regretted ever doing it, that by the time she left his office she was completely diminished.

It could easily have been something like.............you have to LOOK like Mary to be in the Supremes; and he told Mary, you have to SING like Louvain to be on the records.

And they both came out if it all lacking confidence.

The Andantes, like the Funks, didn't get paid a lot and to make a legal case for any royalties is a big stretch. As Ralph has pointed out, the Supremes made some money off the Andantes replacing them on record and perhaps turning out a better product. New meaning to "it's what's in the grooves that counts".

[carole cucumber]

Those are the Supremes on Reflections [[Mary Wilson, Diana Ross, Florence Ballard). Berry was teasing Mary. He always knew she was a great singer. He wrote a song for her called "Baby Don't Go" back in 1961 and she sounded great. He was kidding. The Real Supremes are on the majority of their recordings by the way.

Sometimes people tease, but the one who is teased may feel that there is some underlying truth to what was said in a kidding way. Berry's statement, though presented in a teasing manner, would have a real impact on Mary.
Here's what Mary writes in "Dreamgirl"
'I didn't have a featured solo spot, but, ever the optimist, I was still pestering Berry to let me sing a lead now and then, when one day he jokingly said "Oh, Mary. You know you can't sing." I was so devastated by his words that it would take me years of music therapy to overcome my gradual loss of confidence.'

[jillfoster]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

No, because with the exception of the highest parts on the four tops records [[And on Love Child), the Andantes sound boring and bland. As a listener, I want lively and exciting background vocals as well as lead vocals, as well as all instrumentation. A song is only as strong as it's weakest link. Nobody is gonna tell me that the the BG vocals on a song like "The composer" is even halfway as good as what you hear on "The Happening". And of course, Berry wasn't going to record them solo, because if there was any notice at all, you'd have to put them on TV, and looked like 3 fat cleaning ladies. Marlene was the only one who was halfway presentable onstage.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, by the time she got the boot, 'poor Flo' looked like a fat cleaning lady, so what's the difference?..
Weather Girls, much?..Martha Wash vs. a fashion model in the Black Box video?

[jillfoster]

well, by the time she got the boot, 'poor Flo' looked like a fat cleaning lady, so what's the difference?..
Weather Girls, much?..Martha Wash vs. a fashion model in the Black Box video?

Martha Wash still wore beautiful clothes and was an attractive large woman. Can't fix ugly. The andantes were used because they were FAST and CHEAP, no other reason. Nobody else in the business wanted them, that's why they never worked when Detroit moved to L.A. Everyone else in the business wanted Cissy and Co, or Darlene Love and Co. or Sunny and Sue, and co. And when your'e overweight as a performer, you must have soemthing SPECIAL to offer, Mama Cass had magnetic stage presence and great personality, Martha Wash had a voice that would lift the roof. Andantes had none of that.

[marv2]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

You're exaggerating. Mary Wilson appeared on most Supremes recordings just not most of the album filler and a few moderately successful singles from roughly late 1967 to 69. The Andantes were used to fill in the sound. It was very difficult for a three member group with one principle lead and two backing vocalist to achieve the desired 3 or more part harmonies. The best sounding records the Supremes released had Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard supplying the harmonies. The Andantes talented as they were sounded bland to me back diana ross on records such as "The Composer", "Forever Came Today" and most of all of the album filler tracks. Even when you listen to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" version of "Sunny" with Mary and Cindy doing the backing vocals, it sounds much better and distinctive.

[Jimi LaLumia]

when Detroit moved to L..A., Andantes kept showing up on Jean Terrell era Supremes records anyway..

[midnightman]

I recant...lol

I just thought of something...

Some of the Motown recordings were quite complex for its productions and whatever song they gave to the Supremes or the Vandellas, a certain vocal touch was needed. If the producer didn't feel the other members had the take down pat, they get another background singer who matched it. This could explain why the Andantes were always used in Four Tops recordings and why they were occasionally called for a Temptations song [["It's Growing"). I admit the case with the Supremes was complex. The drama attached to them just made the use of the Andantes more dramatic for those who have been lifelong Supremes fans. I'm thinking with the Supremes, it was a matter of "work, work, work!", "we ain't got time, get whoever you can to sing in front of her [[Diana) before noon...!" and "ugh, I can't go. Tell her to go without me." Florence also wasn't a part of some vocal sessions either on her own accord or something else. And I think the same could be said about Mary and Cindy during the DRATS period though they DID sing background on some of those records, released or not. It's a complex issue. Plus, let's not forget Diana was working like a slave with no money, like many of the Motown artists in that once they had a hit, they had to work ten times above that song just to get another smash. You have to remember back in those days, things may have seem simple but they weren't. The Motown acts barely got a rest in recording and performing so sometimes Motown would push a song with just the lead singer of a group and add in background singers that were nearby [[in this case, the Andantes). Of course people like Mary Wilson and Katherine Schnaffer [[have no idea about the Vandellas) would see things differently too. It's really a complex issue.

[midnightman]

when Detroit moved to L..A., Andantes kept showing up on Jean Terrell era Supremes records anyway..

When did the Andantes leave Motown? 1972 right? I'm guessing the Jean Terrell-era recordings were recorded in both Detroit and Los Angeles. The Andantes were on "Floy Joy" so yeah.

[marv2]

Take a listen to this. One of the best of the Supremes "non-hit" recordings, "Take Me Where You Go". Listen closely to the backing vocals and how fine and melodic Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard sound! Those girls were putting it down! They had strong ,distinctive and beautiful voices that blended it extremely well together. There is no way I would even start to compare them to session singers. This recording is another example of why they were the greatest girl group of all time. Give a listen [[again!)

[jillfoster]

when Detroit moved to L..A., Andantes kept showing up on Jean Terrell era Supremes records anyway..

They were all recorded in Detroit, you big dummy. "Floy Joy" was one of the last albums ever recorded at Hitsville. The only Jean album recorded in L.A. was the Jimmy Webb album.

[jillfoster]

Yes, Marv, when you have lead signers singing background, it all sounds that much better. That's why Mabel, Susaye, etc.. sounded so great on all of Ray Charles' records, and were tapped to sing BG for the Rolling Stones, etc. And of course, Cissy Houston, who was perhaps the biggest in demand BG singer in the business. And yes, Mary and Flo sound MUCH better:



The only time the Andantes really give me chills is on "Ask The Lonely".

[marv2]

They were all recorded in Detroit, you big dummy. "Floy Joy" was one of the last albums ever recorded at Hitsville. The only Jean album recorded in L.A. was the Jimmy Webb album.

I am glad you said it because he making this shit up as he is typing! LOL! If they added horns to a Supremes recording, would it make as big a deal as using what were basically anonymous voices to fill out a few tracks here and there? There is a male voice on "You're Wonderful Sweet, Sweet Love" was it required? No. Did it add something to the record? That is debatable. Same thing goes for when they used female session singers to backup the Supremes on a few songs that needed a fatter sounding vocal harmony. This is becoming ridiculous.

[marv2]

Yes, Marv, when you have lead signers singing background, it all sounds that much better. That's why Mabel, Susaye, etc.. sounded so great on all of Ray Charles' records, and were tapped to sing BG for the Rolling Stones, etc. And of course, Cissy Houston, who was perhaps the biggest in demand BG singer in the business. And yes, Mary and Flo sound MUCH better:



The only time the Andantes really give me chills is on "Ask The Lonely".

I do like how they sound on "Just Ask The Lonely" and on Jimmy Ruffin's "What Becomes of the Broken Hearted". Since I know Florence Ballard's and Mary Wilson's voices so well, I only prefer the Supremes music with them singing, not the Andantes because they just sound bland and colorless on the recordings they were added to during the late 1967-69 period.

[marv2]

When did the Andantes leave Motown? 1972 right? I'm guessing the Jean Terrell-era recordings were recorded in both Detroit and Los Angeles. The Andantes were on "Floy Joy" so yeah.

The Andantes did not leave Motown. Motown left them! It was cruel when Motown left Detroit, they left a lot of the people that built the company there. The "Jean Terrell era" recordings were recorded all over the place! Not just Detroit and LA. For instance, all the vocals for "Stoned Love" were recorded in New York.

[marv2]

They were all recorded in Detroit, you big dummy. "Floy Joy" was one of the last albums ever recorded at Hitsville. The only Jean album recorded in L.A. was the Jimmy Webb album.

True, the entire "Floy Joy" album was recorded in Detroit. Listening to that album I noticed how Smokey purposely brought up, pulled out Mary's and Cindy's vocals so that you hear them more distinctly in the background. Mary is so loud on "You're Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" it just sound more soulful, danceable or whatever. He did great work with Jean, Mary and Cindy. Check out what I am saying here.....

[jobeterob]

The only trouble with the comments made by Marv2 and Jill is that sadly, Ralph for one, was there..............and what he has been saying several times is that the Andantes were better than the group members.

I know it's a tough pill to swallow but he WAS there.

And that is probably the reason HDH made the choices they did ~ to either sweeten or replace the Supremes with the Andantes.

[marv2]

well, by the time she got the boot, 'poor Flo' looked like a fat cleaning lady, so what's the difference?..
Weather Girls, much?..Martha Wash vs. a fashion model in the Black Box video?

Florence Ballard was never fat while she was in the Supremes. Even pictures of her from 1968-70 she was never fat. She was voluptous, a real woman with curves. So you cannot know what you are talking about.

[marv2]

The only trouble with the comments made by Marv2 and Jill is that sadly, Ralph for one, was there..............and what he has been saying several times is that the Andantes were better than the group members.

I know it's a tough pill to swallow but he WAS there.

And that is probably the reason HDH made the choices they did ~ to either sweeten or replace the Supremes with the Andantes.

He did not say that the Andantes were better than the Supremes. I knew that is where you were hoping to get things going. I'll say this about you, it never takes you very long to show your true intentions on here. Go read it again and stop trying to flame things as they say........

Oh, another thing, Holland-Dozier-Holland never replaced the Supremes. The Andantes were used to buttress or as you put it "sweeten" the sounds of many groups and artists at Motown....not just the Supremes. I don't think they did much work on Temptation recordings because the Tempts always had 3 or 4 group members doing the backing vocals. That would not have been possible with the Supremes, Martha & the Vandellas, etc, etc.

That's the truth! It is only bitter to those that deal in lies and distortions....hmmmmmm.....?

[carole cucumber]

Florence Ballard was never fat while she was in the Supremes. Even pictures of her from 1968-70 she was never fat. She was voluptous, a real woman with curves. So you cannot know what you are talking about.

Mary Wilson's words in "Dreamgirl"
'Though she would get much heavier over the next few months, she had already gained a little weight, which was enough to affect how our stage costumes fit. Sometimes Diane would want to wear one outfit for a show but couldn't because Flo's no longer fit her.'
'Flo was not a small woman, and with the drinking, she continued to gain weight. Soon the svelte, revealing stage costumes were tight and unflattering. '

[Jimi LaLumia]

Poor Flo, by her own choice, became fat and bloated while still a Sup..
and maybe Mary was loud as hell on "Floy Joy" but last time I checked, that album tanked like the Titanic..maybe The Andantes SHOULD have been on there..