Someday We'll Be Together question.

**marv2** · 03-02-2013, 09:23 PM

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150867]

Originally Posted by marv2

When I or anyone was born has no bearing on this issue.

The evidence I quote is from a rock solid foundation!. The concrete evidence [[still available to the present day) written in the Hitsville Session Logbooks and on the Motown Library Tape Filing Cards entrusted to and cared for so meticulously by Fran Heard & her staff is what and whom I'm relying upon.
Do you want to call Mrs Heard a liar?

I was right! You weren't even born yet! You are typing stuff from books that probably have not been verified. Are the books you are posting from, were they written by people who were actually there? LOL!!!!

**franjoy56** · 03-02-2013, 09:37 PM

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150867]

Originally Posted by marv2

When I or anyone was born has no bearing on this issue.

The evidence I quote is from a rock solid foundation!. The concrete evidence [[still available to the present day) written in the Hitsville Session Logbooks and on the Motown Library Tape Filing Cards entrusted to and cared for so meticulously by Fran Heard & her staff is what and whom I'm relying upon.
Do you want to call Mrs Heard a liar?

Was Ms. Fran Heard there when that song was recorded in 1969. You claim there may be errors in Mary's book i cannot vouch for how some errors may have been overlooked. But i can assure you that if Mary put [[the track that is on Diana's solo album) that fact was not overlooked she put those words in brackets period so I am taking that as fact others can do what they want with it. Someday we'll be together has suddenly turned into "These Things will keep me loving YOu" which I think is a better record.

**carole cucumber** · 03-02-2013, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

"Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand" always sounded like the Supremes or at least Mary on back up.

Regarding Diana Ross [[1970), Valerie Simpson is quoted as saying "Berry told us that he wanted us to get a little away from the Motown sound. We left the meeting scratching our heads, thinking about what songs we could write that would bring her to the foreground as a solo artist. The pressure was on."

On January 20 & 21, 1970 Ashford & Simpson came up with 'Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)' , "Something On My Mind", "Dark Side Of the World" and a re-worked "Keep An Eye". The basic track for "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"
was recorded on Jan 20, 1970; demo vocal recorded January 21, strings added on Jan 23, background vocals recorded February 11, lead vocal date unknown.
The late Nick Ashford has stated that Diana was very concerned that the album be right since this was her solo debut.

With as much care as Val & Nick put into the project, knowing that Bones Howe had also been recording tracks with /for Diana, I can't even envision them inviting Mary & Cindy to provide backgrounds to their songs. Diana, eager to make-it-on-her-own, would have recognized their voices and likely convinced Berry to go with Bones Howe or some other producer.

**marv2** · 03-02-2013, 09:48 PM

[QUOTE=franjoy56;150898]

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

Was Ms. Fran Heard there when that song was recorded in 1969. You claim there may be errors in Mary's book i cannot vouch for how some errors may have been overlooked. But i can assure you that if Mary put [[the track that is on Diana's solo album) that fact was not overlooked she put those words in brackets period so I am taking that as fact others can do what they want with it. Someday we'll be together has suddenly turned into "These Things will keep me loving YOu" which I think is a better record.

Fran, since these songs were recorded in 1969 and in California, I highly doubt Ms. Fran Heard was there when that song was recorded. She was still in Detroit at that time. They were still recording in Detroit. Motown had not completely moved West by that point.

**carole cucumber** · 03-02-2013, 09:49 PM

[QUOTE=marv2;150888]

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

I was right! You weren't even born yet! You are typing stuff from books that probably have not been verified. Are the books you are posting from, were they written by people who were actually there? LOL!!!!

The information provided is taken directly from the sources listed by those who STILL have access to them. Do you have access to the session logbooks or tape filing cards?

**marv2** · 03-02-2013, 09:53 PM

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150902]

Originally Posted by marv2

The information provided is taken directly from the sources listed by those who STILL have access to them. Do you have access to the session logbooks or tape filing cards?

I have access to my checkbook........LOL!!!

**carole cucumber** · 03-02-2013, 10:06 PM

[QUOTE=marv2;150901]

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Fran, since these songs were recorded in 1969 and in California, I highly doubt Ms. Fran Heard was there when that song was recorded. She was still in Detroit at that time. They were still recording in Detroit. Motown had not completely moved West by that point.

And what is your source that leads you to conclude that both songs were recorded in California? Wikipedia!?

And whether or not she was there directly or not is immaterial. It has no bearing on the issue.
The session log entries from those who were there is sufficient proof for me.

**carole cucumber** · 03-02-2013, 10:20 PM

[QUOTE=franjoy56;150898]

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

You claim there may be errors in Mary's book i cannot vouch for how some errors may have been overlooked. But i can assure you that if Mary put [[the track that is on Diana's solo album) that fact was not overlooked she put those words in brackets period so I am taking that as fact others can do what they want with it.

Fran,
Once you are able to get the Supremes' recordings of the following released
A Special Love, A Tear For The Girl, Across the Road, Ain't I Gonna Win Your Love, All I Want To Do, Another Lonely Night Completes Another Empty Day, Baby's Home To Stay, Blue Memories, Bibbity Bobbity Boo, The Boy From Crosstown, Darling Baby, Deep Inside, Don't Forget I Love You, Don't say You Love Me, Double or Nothing [[and the list could go on and on)......
I will believe you.

**jobeterob** · 03-02-2013, 10:24 PM

It is odd for anyone to think that Reach Out and Touch may have had a Mary Wilson sound in the background, considering that she was missing on many of the backgrounds as far back as 1965. The sound we thought was Mary and Cindy was often the Andantes. As least with Flo, you could hear her once in a while in a more distinctive way.

I can't imagine Motown would try and inject "Supremes" after ejecting them for the 5 years previous to 1970.

**franjoy56** · 03-02-2013, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

It is odd for anyone to think that Reach Out and Touch may have had a Mary Wilson sound in the background, considering that she was missing on many of the backgrounds as far back as 1965. The sound we thought was Mary and Cindy was often the Andantes. As least with Flo, you could hear her once in a while in a more distinctive way.

I can't imagine Motown would try and inject "Supremes" after ejecting them for the 5 years previous to 1970.

When you say ejecting them it is meant that Berry Gordy only saw Diana Ross where the supremes as a group was concerned. No wonder Flo [[who you could hear more than once in a while) after seeing the group being torn apart, for a potential solo star, acted out., it is no wonder Jean Terrell left after she saw her pennies being evaporated with unnecessary promotion that was meant to put money in Motown; pocket until she got sick of it.
Jean T in Mary's Supreme Faith ""There not even keeping an accuarte accounting. "Don't tell me you ca give me two pennies just because I was only making one at first and that i'm suppose to be happy with it." We know who is singing on those songs and you Jobete, we know how fixed you are on Diana Ross, and I applaud you for it, but the Supremes are the Supremes and no star can change what their voices produced on those albums that are timeless to this day.

revvy · 03-03-2013, 12:00 AM

I believe Mary and Cindy were not on many recordings between 1967-69 because they were constantly touring which is far better money than making records...especially filler songs for an album that they weren't going to be performing live anyway. There's no sense in taking valuable time working out intricate background harmonies when the big money is in live gigs.

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 12:16 AM

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150905]

Originally Posted by marv2

And what is your source that leads you to conclude that both songs were recorded in California? Wikipedia!?

And whether or not she was there directly or not is immaterial. It has no bearing on the issue.
The session log entries from those who were there is sufficient proof for me.

The late Mr. Johnny Bristol who was there! He said they were recorded in LA. He was the producer! I can easily get Mary to corroborate it. Oh so now you are backing down from you claim that Mrs. Heard was directly involved in those recordings or that she was somewhere around?

Immaterial? Is this trial that no one told me about? LOL! You Carol you kill me, hehehehehehe.........

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 12:17 AM

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150905]

Originally Posted by marv2

And what is your source that leads you to conclude that both songs were recorded in California? Wikipedia!?

And whether or not she was there directly or not is immaterial. It has no bearing on the issue.
The session log entries from those who were there is sufficient proof for me.

Carol, did you buy Mrs. Heard's book?

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 12:19 AM

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150913]

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Fran,
Once you are able to get the Supremes' recordings of the following released
A Special Love, A Tear For The Girl, Across the Road, Ain't I Gonna Win Your Love, All I Want To Do, Another Lonely Night Completes Another Empty Day, Baby's Home To Stay, Blue Memories, Bibbity Bobbity Boo, The Boy From Crosstown, Darling Baby, Deep Inside, Don't Forget I Love You, Don't say You Love Me, Double or Nothing [[and the list could go on and on)......
I will believe you.

Now why would Franjoy want to get those loser songs released? None of them had hit potential and could not have been that good.

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

It is odd for anyone to think that Reach Out and Touch may have had a Mary Wilson sound in the background, considering that she was missing on many of the backgrounds as far back as 1965. The sound we thought was Mary and Cindy was often the Andantes. As least with Flo, you could hear her once in a while in a more distinctive way.

I can't imagine Motown would try and inject "Supremes" after ejecting them for the 5 years previous to 1970.

Never mind.........hehehehehehe

**franjoy56** · 03-03-2013, 12:21 AM

that is correct. but give them credit for the songs they did record from that period
ones that comes to mind that is on the same album as someday we'll be together is
"blowing in the wind" and two on the love child album "I'll set you free" and he's my sunny boy" two fabulous tracks.

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

When you say ejecting them it is meant that Berry Gordy only saw Diana Ross where the supremes as a group was concerned. No wonder Flo [[who you could hear more than once in a while) after seeing the group being torn apart, for a potential solo star, acted out., it is no wonder Jean Terrell left after she saw her pennies being evaporated with unnecessary promotion that was meant to put money in Motown; pocket until she got sick of it.
Jean T in Mary's Supreme Faith ""There not even keeping an accuarte accounting. "Don't tell me you ca give me two pennies just because I was only making one at first and that i'm suppose to be happy with it." We know who is singing on those songs and you Jobete, we know how fixed you are on Diana Ross, and I applaud you for it, but the Supremes are the Supremes and no star can change what their voices produced on those albums that are timeless to this day.

Jean claimed that Motown would even charge flowers that were sent to other artists, wishing them well on their opening nights to the Supremes account!

alexgarret · 03-03-2013, 12:26 AM

Well Large Marge then
that's the gospel truth!

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

that is correct. but give them credit for the songs they did record from that period
ones that comes to mind that is on the same album as someday we'll be together is
"blowing in the wind" and two on the love child album "I'll set you free" and he's my sunny boy" two fabulous tracks.

Fran, I don't know about you, but there is no one on this board that is going to even slightly convince me that Mary and Florence were not on the majority of recordings. I know they were on ALL of the hits. Cindy Birdsong is on some recordings during 1967-69 but as Revvy said, why waste them on album filler material? Anything Jobeterob says is pure nonsense and you have already discovered his ulterior motives for trying to down play all of the Supremes contributions to those recordings. Yeah, they had to have Diane do them as she got what she wanted and that was to be the sole lead singer. After Berry nearly worked her ass to death she complained that she was doing most of the work in those last two years she was in the group!

**midnightman** · 03-03-2013, 02:34 AM

The Waters sisters sung background on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". The Supremes and Diana Ross were in two different plateaus in 1970 so I doubt Motown would've asked Mary and Cindy to add to the song. Anyway, I always believed "Someday" was definitely supposed to have been a Diana Ross solo debut. You have to understand, most of the songs released during the Diana Ross and... era of the Supremes had background vocals mostly associated with the Andantes. "Someday" was never intended to be a Supremes single but Berry had to find something to make Diana go out in a big way so he credited it to the Supremes, I agree with this story. The fascinating thing is that Diana hasn't sung this song in years. I don't think she sang it much during most of her solo career afar from Motown 25, while Mary sung it numerous times [[I did like the version she did on Only the Strong Survive). So in Mary's view, she wears Someday as a badge of honor in the history of the Supremes but for Diana, it's mostly the pre-DRATS Supremes songs that hold a badge of honor more so. Of course only Love Child and Someday were the only really significant songs of the post-Florence period but that's besides the point. I regard "Someday" as a Diana Ross classic though.

**midnightman** · 03-03-2013, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by revvy

I believe Mary and Cindy were not on many recordings between 1967-69 because they were constantly touring which is far better money than making records...especially filler songs for an album that they weren't going to be performing live anyway. There's no sense in taking valuable time working out intricate background harmonies when the big money is in live gigs.

Plus Berry Gordy was always forcing only Diana in the studio so they didn't wanna waste any more money convincing the other girls to join in. Besides, Mary and Cindy were allowed not to do it if they didn't want to. Diana, on the other hand, of course, had no other choice. Mary and Cindy also had more of social lives than Diana did and really didn't have a say in anything. She couldn't take a break. Mary and Cindy on the other hand couldn't have been bothered and Motown basically didn't bother to call them to sing over Diana.

**milven** · 03-03-2013, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by revvy

I believe Mary and Cindy were not on many recordings between 1967-69 because they were constantly touring which is far better money than making records...especially filler songs for an album that they weren't going to be performing live anyway. There's no sense in taking valuable time working out intricate background harmonies when the big money is in live gigs.

If the reason is that they were too busy touring, then Diana was touring too. How did she manage to get back to record and the other two Supremes couldn't - or if the accounts of Love Child are accurate, wouldn't?

**reese** · 03-03-2013, 12:08 PM

I don't think the reason for Mary and Cindy not being on some recordings has anything to do with touring schedules. If that is the case, wouldn't the same apply to the Marvelettes or the Vandellas?

More than likely, the Motown producers could have the track [[including background vocals) ready so that when Diana, Martha, Gladys, and Wanda were available, they could get the lead vocals done quickly instead of having to work out harmonies with the other group members. Thus getting the recording out quicker.

**ralpht** · 03-03-2013, 12:13 PM

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

revvy · 03-03-2013, 01:16 PM

There could be some truth to what you say, Ralph. The Andantes were professional backup singers and that's basically all they did, whereas Mary and Cindy had to learn dance routines, make television appearances, do PR, etc. In the end, it was really only Diana's voice that Motown cared about. Shame because I thought the Diana. Mary, Cindy combo had a nice blend [[of course not the gospel-inspired powerhouse blend with Flo, but pleasing nonetheless). The Andantes always sounded kind of whispery and non-distinct to my ears.

**carole cucumber** · 03-03-2013, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by ralpht

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

Thank you, Ralph, for setting the record straight as one who was there. For some here to imply that Fran Heard & staff's involvement with session logs and tape filing cards aren't to be trusted is absurd.

**ralpht** · 03-03-2013, 01:54 PM

Carole,
Fran and her staff were impeccable in the records they kept.

**midnightman** · 03-03-2013, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ralpht

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

Gordy surely didn't take the Andantes' vocals in vain.

**marv2** · 03-03-2013, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

The Waters sisters sung background on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". The Supremes and Diana Ross were in two different plateaus in 1970 so I doubt Motown would've asked Mary and Cindy to add to the song. Anyway, I always believed "Someday" was definitely supposed to have been a Diana Ross solo debut. You have to understand, most of the songs released during the Diana Ross and... era of the Supremes had background vocals mostly associated with the Andantes. "Someday" was never intended to be a Supremes single but Berry had to find something to make Diana go out in a big way so he credited it to the Supremes, I agree with this story. The fascinating thing is that Diana hasn't sung this song in years. I don't think she sang it much during most of her solo career afar from Motown 25, while Mary sung it numerous times [[I did like the version she did on Only the Strong Survive). So in Mary's view, she wears Someday as a badge of honor in the history of the Supremes but for Diana, it's mostly the pre-DRATS Supremes songs that hold a badge of honor more so. Of course only Love Child and Someday were the only really significant songs of the post-Florence period but that's besides the point. I regard "Someday" as a Diana Ross classic though.

I don't know anywhere that it says the Waters [[Maxine, Julia and perhaps their brother Oren or Luther Waters) are singing backup on the song "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". No one has stated that either. It was not recorded the same night as "Someday We'll Be Together" either. So no proof and nothing to lead me to that conclusion.

I agree that I would not believe Motown would ask Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong to add to the song as some sort of special request. I do believe that it is highly probable that Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong recorded the backing vocal tracks during a routine recording session with Johnny Bristol producing. The song had no significance in scheme of things back when it was recorded.

It is a mystery to me [[well, not really..... hehehehehehe) as to why Diana Ross refrains from ever singing "Someday We'll Be Together" in her act all these years! LOL!!!

**stephanie** · 03-04-2013, 12:08 AM

There is a way to end this right now. For anyone who thinks that Mary and Cindy are not on the Diana Ross and the Supremes billed songs [[some of them not ALL of them) listen to some of the songs on the Love Child Album, and Stormy from the Unreleased Masters and talk to AVID Supremes fans who know these albums and see what answer you get. Marv is right for YEARS people were saying Flo was not on My World and then we heard Flo in the studio on the I Hear a Symphony double edition. For years we heard Flos single was not played outside of Detroit....It Doesnt Matter How I say It is in my house as we speak because my brother heard it on the radio here in DC and bought it when it came out! Mary Wilson may have some of her timelines not all perfect but there is no denying her voice and Cindys on some of those songs in 67-69 no matter how small the amount of songs they were on.

**franjoy56** · 03-04-2013, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by stephanie

There is a way to end this right now. For anyone who thinks that Mary and Cindy are not on the Diana Ross and the Supremes billed songs [[some of them not ALL of them) listen to some of the songs on the Love Child Album, and Stormy from the Unreleased Masters and talk to AVID Supremes fans who know these albums and see what answer you get. Marv is right for YEARS people were saying Flo was not on My World and then we heard Flo in the studio on the I Hear a Symphony double edition. For years we heard Flos single was not played outside of Detroit....It Doesnt Matter How I say It is in my house as we speak because my brother heard it on the radio here in DC and bought it when it came out! Mary Wilson may have some of her timelines not all perfect but there is no denying her voice and Cindys on some of those songs in 67-69 no matter how small the amount of songs they were on.

No only this which is a good asertion, there were also several tracks on the Funny Girl Album that also need to be credited to Mary & Cindy's lovely backup and in some instances interplay with diana
"HIs Love Makes Me Beautiful" "If A Girl Isn't Pretty" "Don't Rain On My Parade" "I'm The Greatest Star" as well as several tv show where they did not lip sych [[i.e. The Hollywood Palace 3/8/69)

**captainjames** · 03-04-2013, 09:38 AM

ahhhhhh HA !!!!
took the words right out of my mouth and once again a voice of authority and reason.
Why add Mary and Cindy at this point when "he" [[BG) already had a working and bankable solution. This goes along with THE MOTOWN SOUND, "The Sound of Young America". Usually mixed with one or the other ;The Funk Brothers, The Andantes, HDH, Nick and Val or The Waters.

Originally Posted by ralpht

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

**franjoy56** · 03-05-2013, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by captainjames

ahhhhhh HA !!!!
took the words right out of my mouth and once again a voice of authority and reason.
Why add Mary and Cindy at this point when "he" [[BG) already had a working and bankable solution. This goes along with THE MOTOWN SOUND, "The Sound of Young America". Usually mixed with one or the other ;The Funk Brothers, The Andantes, HDH, Nick and Val or The Waters.

Why add them well because they were the Supremes, and we preferred their sound to the Andantes. If you listen to "I'm Livin In Shame" on the Hollywood Palace 3/8/69, and then listen to the released version with the Andantes version on background the TV version with Mary and Cindy wins hands down. And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

**marv2** · 03-05-2013, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Why add them well because they were the Supremes, and we preferred their sound to the Andantes. If you listen to "I'm Livin In Shame" on the Hollywood Palace 3/8/69, and then listen to the released version with the Andantes version on background the TV version with Mary and Cindy wins hands down. And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

When Mary and Cindy began recording with Jean Terrell , the records became more soulful and not bland sounding such as the ones done by Diana Ross with Andantes doing the backgrounds.

**franjoy56** · 03-05-2013, 01:10 AM

Using Nick and Val, The Blackberries, or the A's on the Diana solo records were a great idea, especially the ones with Nick and Val and the Blackberries those records had a real dramatic effect especially A'int No Mountain HIgh Enough, Surrender, and Rember Me.

**milven** · 03-05-2013, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Using Nick and Val, The Blackberries, or the A's on the Diana solo records were a great idea, especially the ones with Nick and Val and the Blackberries those records had a real dramatic effect especially A'int No Mountain High Enough, Surrender, and Remember Me.

I love the songs you mentioned. But at their time of release, I couldn't help thinking that they sounded more like group records than some of her work with the Supremes , where the mikes of the other members were turned down. And I still wonder why that was after hearing the new versions of MY WORLD and SYMPHONY where the mikes are up.

**captainjames** · 03-05-2013, 09:39 AM

Uh come on people the records did not stop selling because Mary, Flo or Cindy was not in the background that was not it and we have went through this many times before. Motown lost HDH some of their best writers......................UH yeaaaahhhh !!!

There was trouble during this time at the company and to be perfectly honest with you the background sound was turned down so much on those records that I myself at times forgot they were even there. Mr. Gordy had a formula and he knew "The Motown Sound" lost a bit of flavor when HDH left because they knew what made Diana's voice sell. BG and Motown was back to the drawing board and they tried everything from Smokey, Nick and Val and Hal David and Burt Bacharach. Honestly, at this point he really didn't give a lot of effort to it because he was concentrating on getting her out of the group. This addition of background singers was not unique to the Supremes and it was used on several artists and groups at Motown and even carried over to the New Supremes. So back to the original question I truly believe "Someday" was intended for Diana Ross' solo record. I am not sure Motown was contemplating if it was to be her first solo but indeed a solo record for her.

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Why add them well because they were the Supremes, and we preferred their sound to the Andantes. If you listen to "I'm Livin In Shame" on the Hollywood Palace 3/8/69, and then listen to the released version with the Andantes version on background the TV version with Mary and Cindy wins hands down. And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

**midnightman** · 03-05-2013, 02:04 PM

That's the one thing people forget when they mentioned why the Supremes' records weren't selling like they used to. Motown was changing as a company. Hell the music world was changing rapidly. The Supremes' once-hit making sound was considered outdated even before Florence left. We have to remember, right around 1967, pop audiences were starting to listen to earthier R&B [[now labeled soul music) by the likes of James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding and Sam & Dave. Marvin Gaye responded by getting rougher in his music [[same with the Temptations). So did Stevie Wonder. Then we have Sly and the Family Stone in 1968 and that totally changed the dynamic of R&B. The Supremes just could not compete. Aretha Franklin was dominating the charts and racially and socially, the United States was going through a rough phase after the fallout of the mid-1960s civil rights movement [[black nationalism, the Black Panthers, people switching from bouffants and processes to Afros, white flight in urban cities like Detroit and Chicago). Whereas before when the civil rights movement was in swing and pop and soul music was allowed to coalesce, the Supremes dominated that period, partially due to Diana, yes, but also due to Holland Dozier Holland, whose music blurred the lines of pop, rock and roll, soul and gospel, which made the Supremes and the Four Tops a perfect fit. But afterwards, by 1967, '68, the Supremes were trailing even then so their reign was gonna end regardless if Mary and Cindy were on the hit records or if Florence stayed.

People here seem to think if certain things hadn't happened, the Supremes would've still been the queens of pop by 1968 but that wasn't the case. It had less to do with Motown changing the name of the group and more to do with changing times. Besides Motown was treating Diana like a solo act anyway by 1967.

**skooldem1** · 03-05-2013, 03:18 PM

And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

You have got to be kidding the way you dismiss those records. "Love Child", and "Someday We'll be together" were the biggest selling Supreme singles ever.

*edited out: I'm gonna make you love me

**skooldem1** · 03-05-2013, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

When Mary and Cindy began recording with Jean Terrell , the records became more soulful and not bland sounding such as the ones done by Diana Ross with Andantes doing the backgrounds.

Not true at all. With the changing times and with Diana Ross at the helm, they were already on that path. "Love Child", "I'm gonna make you love me" and "Someday We'll be together" already took the group to a more soulful sound. Diana Ross continued on with the soulful sound on her debut album brilliantly produced by A&S.

**midnightman** · 03-05-2013, 05:41 PM

^ Now that is true. It's arguable that their heyday era was purposely more pop than soul. "Love Child", "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "Someday" definitely were earthier compared to "Come See About Me".

**marv2** · 03-05-2013, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

^ Now that is true. It's arguable that their heyday era was purposely more pop than soul. "Love Child", "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "Someday" definitely were earthier compared to "Come See About Me".

Major disagreement! LOL! "Come See About Me" was perhaps their most popular record of all of them with the Soul, R&B audience!

**marv2** · 03-05-2013, 05:46 PM

Unfortunately the Soul/R&B Billboard Charts were suspended during all of 1964 . I am sure it would have been number one there for at least a couple of weeks.

**skooldem1** · 03-05-2013, 06:07 PM

"Come see about me" was one of their most successful songs.

**jobeterob** · 03-05-2013, 06:09 PM

The heyday of the Supremes pop sound was the monster hit, You Can't Hurry Love. After that, it appeared there was more of a turn back to some rock, You Keep Me Hangin On, and more soul with Love Child and Someday We'll be Together. That was the time of the ascendancy of Aretha Franklin and James Brown, so it makes sense that they turned back more to a soul sound.

We talk about who might have sang on You Can't Hurry Love behind Diana but I listened to it today and it hardly matters. It was a lot more significant who sang behind her on Reach Out and Touch and Remember Me and Reach Out I'll Be There and Ain't No Mountain High Enough and those people weren't often identified. Ironic how the background started to be more prominent in her solo career than it was with the Supremes.

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

**marv2** · 03-05-2013, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

"Come see about me" was one of their most successful songs.

and considered one the most soulful by the Original group.

**marv2** · 03-05-2013, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

The heyday of the Supremes pop sound was the monster hit, You Can't Hurry Love. After that, it appeared there was more of a turn back to some rock, You Keep Me Hangin On, and more soul with Love Child and Someday We'll be Together. That was the time of the ascendancy of Aretha Franklin and James Brown, so it makes sense that they turned back more to a soul sound.

We talk about who might have sang on You Can't Hurry Love behind Diana but I listened to it today and it hardly matters. It was a lot more significant who sang behind her on Reach Out and Touch and Remember Me and Reach Out I'll Be There and Ain't No Mountain High Enough and those people weren't often identified. Ironic how the background started to be more prominent in her solo career than it was with the Supremes.

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

They just weren't better than the Real Supremes!

**midnightman** · 03-05-2013, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

The heyday of the Supremes pop sound was the monster hit, You Can't Hurry Love. After that, it appeared there was more of a turn back to some rock, You Keep Me Hangin On, and more soul with Love Child and Someday We'll be Together. That was the time of the ascendancy of Aretha Franklin and James Brown, so it makes sense that they turned back more to a soul sound.

We talk about who might have sang on You Can't Hurry Love behind Diana but I listened to it today and it hardly matters. It was a lot more significant who sang behind her on Reach Out and Touch and Remember Me and Reach Out I'll Be There and Ain't No Mountain High Enough and those people weren't often identified. Ironic how the background started to be more prominent in her solo career than it was with the Supremes.

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

I think the Waters sisters [[Maxine and Julia) were all over the "Diana Ross" album. The Andantes and [[occasionally) Ashford & Simpson, Jacky Beavers and Johnny Bristol also contributed background vocals in one fashion or another but I believe the Waters were on "Reach Out and Touch" as well. I do agree about the background vocals being more prominent during the first years of Diana's solo career.

**ralpht** · 03-05-2013, 09:18 PM

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

In the end, Robb, it is all about selling records. And they sold records at Motown.