1963 Marvels / Marvelettes Miami Gig

**jsmith** · 12-26-2012, 01:18 PM

Find below an ad for a Marvels [[Marvelettes) gig staged at the Peppermint Lounge in Miami in mid April 1963.
TWO QUESTIONS .........
1/ Surely the group weren't still known as the Marvels in 63 [[though no doubt when the 1st copies of "Please Mr. Postman" were pressed up, that was the group's name that would have gone on the label ... thus DJ's on Miami radio in 61 would have plugged it as by the Marvels).
2/ the piccy on the ad [[from a badly reproduced newspaper page print) only shows 3 ladies ... were the group 3 strong in April 63 ??

Attachment 5826

**motony** · 12-26-2012, 03:30 PM

there was a "local" Miami girl group by the name Marvels. Those are NOT the Marvelettes. If the pix was clear you could tell. The Marvelettes were a quartet at that time and if they had appeared at that club the ad would have been for The Marvelettes.

**kenneth** · 12-26-2012, 03:34 PM

I'm sure Motony is correct. The LP "Marvelous Marvelettes" was released in '63, and shows the four girls. Between then and the "Greatest Hits" LP Georgeanna left but I don't know exactly when. The "Recorded Live on Stage" also shows four girls on the cover but I don't recall whether that was before or after "Marvelous" in the catalog.

Still, I don't recall their ever being known as The Marvels anyway; I thought they were dubbed the Marvelettes upon signing with Motown. Regardless, this is certainly a different group entirely.

**reese** · 12-26-2012, 03:40 PM

I believe the Marvelettes became a trio in the latter part of 1964, around the time of TOO MANY FISH IN THE SEA.

smark21 · 12-26-2012, 06:30 PM

I wonder when Georgeanna Tillman officially departed the group? Or because of her illness, she first became a part time member, then eventually dropped out permanently? I’ve seen publicity pictures from that time in which some pictures were of the trio and others of the quartet. They look they were from the same session as Gladys, Katherine and Wanda were wearing the same wigs and outfits. Only some pics had Georgeanna while others did not.

**kenneth** · 12-26-2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by smark21

I wonder when Georgeanna Tillman officially departed the group? Or because of her illness, she first became a part time member, then eventually dropped out permanently? I’ve seen publicity pictures from that time in which some pictures were of the trio and others of the quartet. They look they were from the same session as Gladys, Katherine and Wanda were wearing the same wigs and outfits. Only some pics had Georgeanna while others did not.

That's true. The two photos which I recall which seem like they came from the same photo session was the cover of Gladys, Wanda, Katherine and Georgeanna on "Anthology" [[the original yellow double LP) and the back photo with the more familiar grouping of Gladys, Wanda and Katherine on the "Greatest Hits" Tamla LP. They were identical gowns, hair, etc., except Georgeanna was in one photo and not the other. I really wonder how those two photos came about...they were too much alike to be taken on different days and times.

**reese** · 12-26-2012, 06:44 PM

Re the similar publicity photos, it has been speculated that the group knew Georgeanna was on her way out when that photo session took place, but not exactly when. So they took two sets of photos at the same time.

**westgrandboulevard** · 12-26-2012, 06:55 PM

Do I correctly recall reading that The Marvelettes at one time used two sets of performance costumes, both made to identical design, but with one set made in gold, the other in silver.....?

Would that be the studio photo session which featured that design?

smark21 · 12-26-2012, 07:12 PM

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Here's an example...looks to be from same session.

**copley** · 12-26-2012, 07:27 PM

There was a group called the Marvells & another called the Mar-Vells. The Marvelettes were never called the Marvels. Georgeanna finally left the group in 1965.

**westgrandboulevard** · 12-26-2012, 07:39 PM

smark21

Yes, nice contrast, and obviously two different shots, rather than Georgeanna simply being removed from one.

In the larger pic above, Katherine reminds me of Sheila Ferguson, of the Three Degrees.

Looking at these pics reminds me how I've always felt that Gladys was sensitive about her gap-toothed smile [[as undoubtedly sweet as it was), as she almost always smiled with 'tight' lips.

In the group photos, it gives the impression of some diffidence [[IMO), which is at odds with her actually being the main lead singer on record and in performances, at that time.

Although the gap was eventually corrected, I always had the feeling this may have come some time after Martha and Mary Wells had the same treatment, and that it was not so long before Gladys would then left the group.....

**marybrewster** · 12-27-2012, 10:10 AM

If I am not mistaken, there are actually quite a few photo sessions taken [[or at least photos) with 3 Marvelettes and 4 Marvelettes. Many have been posted before. My understanding is that one set was used for "recording", while the other was used for "touring".

**luke** · 12-27-2012, 11:01 PM

Georgeanna kept recording with the group for awhile after she stopped performing with them.

**jsmith** · 12-28-2012, 12:25 PM

Unless the Marvels were immitating the Marvelettes in 63 then I can't agree that this set of Marvels were from Miami.
I have a 2nd ad for that same booking and it's a bigger one. It states that the group's hits were "[[Please) Mr. Postman" and "Swinging Postman" [[can't post it today as it's on my other computer -- which is at home).
The Marvelettes defo started out under the name the Marvels & I believe that it was someone at Motown that got them to change it.
Don't recall ever seeing a 45 by them that bore that 'early name' though.

BUT ... if an early promo 45 by them used the name the Marvels, then it would have been played on Miami radio under that name.
Just trying to sort matters out with regard to this, have no firm thoughts on which group it was that actually undertook that gig.

**reese** · 12-28-2012, 01:13 PM

Re the Marvelettes, although I have read that they were originally called the Marvels, I have also read that they were originally called the Casingyets. In any event, by the time their first record was pressed, they were definitely the Marvelettes. Certainly by 1963, a promoter would have known their proper name. Maybe this was a case of a promoter trying to bring in patrons by advertising hits that the audience would know and taking advantage of their confusion.

I have read that quite a few promoters back then would do questionable things, like leaving with the receipts while the acts were performing, or booking fake acts knowing that many audience members did not know what they looked like. Carla Thomas has told the story of running into Ben E. King on the road and he started laughing because he had just played a gig with a fake Carla elsewhere.

**kenneth** · 12-28-2012, 01:43 PM

Whoever has the original print ad should be able to verify that it's not the Marvelettes. In the fuzzy reproduction here, certainly the girl on the left could be Wanda, and the girl in the middle could be Katherine, but the girl on the right looks nothing like Gladys to my eyes.

**jsmith** · 12-28-2012, 02:03 PM

I will post a copy of the 'bigger ad' up when I am home on Sunday ..... but although the ad is a version of the bigger ad containing more info [[2 songs names attributed to the group ... [[one being "Twisting Postman" rather then "Swinging Postman" as I wrote above) ... as again it is lifted from an old newspaper, the reproduction of the group's picture is very poor.
Many old newspaper ads that included a picture of the group taken from a publicity photo reproduced very poorly on the printed page back in the day.

I agree that there were loads of fake groups about [[especially across the southern states for northern acts) ... the Masqueraders got their name coz they were billed in their early days under 'hit group' names [[Drifters, etc.).
ALSO when "Tighten Up" went big, there were 3/4 fake Archie Bell's [[As Archie himself was in Germany with the Military at the time).
PLUS there was a guy in Miami who performed under the name Freddie Scott and he would perform the recording guy's songs on gigs.
NUDA PLUS .... the LA based JJ Jackson [[Jerome Jackson ?) would perform NY based J J Jackson's hits [[" But It's Alright", etc).

**jsmith** · 12-28-2012, 02:22 PM

the Miami based Marvel[[l)s / Fabulettes story is quite complicated.......
I know the Mar-vels [[their name seemed to get written / spelt a number of different ways) were around by 1963 and for 2/3 years they recorded under that name.
Then they were renamed [[on their records & by their new record label) as the Fabulettes ... BUT .. as they already had a 'high profile' on the Miami club scene, I believe they still did live gigs in their 'home town' as the Marvels.
Anyway, after cutting as the Fabulettes for around 3 more years they were reduced in number [[from 4 to 3) when Annette Snell quit & headed off to New York with Paul Kelly.
So by 1969, the group were a trio and Annette Snell was a solo artist.
If anyone can add more to their story [[as I have laid it out above), please feel free to do so ....
..... anyway back to an ad ..... I'm not sure if Annette Snell was still a group member for this mid July 1968 gig but the picture of the group used in the ad shows 4 members ......
So it seems that up till 1967/68, the group were just about always 4 strong .....
WILL HAVE TO POST THE ADD A BIT LATER as I am up to my attachments limit.

**blueskies** · 12-28-2012, 07:54 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea_1UOAwRF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT8mZHb4kww

**copley** · 12-28-2012, 07:56 PM

The Marvelettes were never known as the Marvels. Whoever this group it's not 'my girls'. I have asked Kat to confirm this

**jsmith** · 12-29-2012, 03:37 AM

.An ad for the [[Miami) Marvels ... they were 4 strong till Annette Snell left the group to go solo. I think I recall being told that after Annette left, a member of the Twans stood in for a while to keep them 4 strong ... but the group ended up as a trio before breaking up . THE AD ...

Attachment 5832

**jsmith** · 12-29-2012, 03:41 AM

The picture of the Marvels .... a bit larger ......
its still the picture from the show ad though ...

Attachment 5833

**jsmith** · 12-29-2012, 03:58 AM

FROM THE ABOVE YOUTUBE clip DESCRIPTION ....
Mattie Lovett had a group - the Mar-Vells, that was the name of the group. It was a good group. They moved to Miami and we started putting songs together for them. I used to give them Marvelettes songs to sing live and Annette Snell was part of that group. She was super. Loretta [Letlo] used to do all the lead singing. We didn't know at the time that Annette was so good. The group were all good. The Mar-Vells would do a lot of session work in Miami in the early sixties, before going on to record in their own right for Sound Stage 7 and Monument as the Fabulettes in 1967/68.
So it seems that the [[Miami) Marvels were known for perfoming Marvelettes tracks on live gigs. So it must have been them on that gig at the Peppermint Lounge [[though the Peppermint Lounge was a 'white audience' club and the Marvels usually played the Miami 'black club 'circuit.
ALSO, the group were just about always 4 strong & the Peppermint Lounge ads only show 3 ladies as being 'the group'.
............ still a STRANGE situation me thinks ....

**randy_russi** · 12-29-2012, 07:38 AM

Marvelettes were never the Marvels! Kat told me this many years ago in an interview
I did with her for DISCoveries Magazine. They were called "The Casingyets" or "Casinyets",
which Motown didn't like. Motown came up with Marvelettes as their name.
And, of course, in '63 they were a BIG act and would NEVER perform as the Marvels!!!
They did several shots at one photo session with and without Georgeanna. Notice
that they changed outfits for these photos, but not the wigs. This was done because
it wasn't clear when she would leave and they still had contracts pending requiring
the four members. Photo sessions had nothing to do with recording.
By the way, these wonderful photos were done in NYC by the famous Kreigsman.

**randy_russi** · 12-29-2012, 07:41 AM

Also, when the Peppermint Lounge opened in Miami, Joey Dee & the Starlighters opened
the club along with the Ronettes. And this is where Murray the K met the Ronettes!

**kenneth** · 12-29-2012, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by randy_russi

They did several shots at one photo session with and without Georgeanna. Notice
that they changed outfits for these photos, but not the wigs. This was done because
it wasn't clear when she would leave and they still had contracts pending requiring
the four members. Photo sessions had nothing to do with recording.
By the way, these wonderful photos were done in NYC by the famous Kreigsman.

Good information, but in the photos above the outfits are the same. Are you saying there's other photos from the same session with different outfits, and Georgeanna present and then missing? I don't recall ever seeing other photos like that, but of course the photo of the trio represented on the back of the Greatest Hits LP is a very well known pose.