Harry Weinger and Questlove dissects Marvin's "What's Going On"

[midnightman]

Part 1:

[midnightman]

Part 2:

[midnightman]

Part 3:

[soulster]

Aw that was great! I always wondered about that false fade on the single mix. That was just Marvin giving the finger to Motown.

But, I always paid attention to the drums. That's why I always loved the single mix. The percussion is prominent. After all, Marvin was a drummer first.

Just one question: who is Questlove, and what is his claim to fame?

[midnightman]

^ Drummer for the hip-hop band [[yes band) Roots.

[splanky]

That was the most interesting and fun thing I've seen posted on the forum in some time...
To quote a line from Dickens:
I'd like some more, please...

@soulster, I am shocked that you didn't know who Questlove is. You seriously would so well
to google his resume. Quest has worked with more than just hiphop acts...

[StuBass1]

Quick add to this FWIW. Arranger Dave VanDePitte and my brother Bruce were good friends back in those days. They had earlier played together in the Roostertail house band, and Bruce later became Paul Ankas Musical Director and brought Dave to New York to do some arrangements for Paul [[another story in itself)...but we discussed this on videotape during my and Bruces recent visit to The Motown Museum. During the WGO project Dave called Bruce and told him he wanted off the project. Seems that Dave, one of Motowns most prolific arrangers had his role on What's Going On reduced to doing take-downs of whatever Marvin told him to write. Everything on that recording came from Marvin, and VanDePitte considered it a huge insult to his arranging abilities. Bruce advised him to stay with the project, and to this day, Dave is credited with creating those magnificent arrangements, although in reality it was all Marvin dictating those parts for the instruments. Dave was a terrific arranger but that project showed the depths of Marvins musicality and ability to create exactly the sound he wanted.

Also, true that Berry Gordy initally rejected the entire WGO concept, and it was Harry Balk who actually convinced Berry to let the project go forward...

[midnightman]

^ Yeah Marvin was really the one dictating the parts for the instruments. He was like Michael in a way that he could hear something and he wanted the arrangers and musicians to get it the way he heard it. You can say Marvin was really the arranger behind What's Going On. I can kinda see why Dave wanted off because no other Motown artist had ever done that before. Not even Stevie. But yeah Harry Balk convinced Berry to have it put out.

[phil]

Seems that Dave, one of Motowns most prolific arrangers had his role on What's Going On reduced to doing take-downs of whatever Marvin told him to write. Everything on that recording came from Marvin, and VanDePitte considered it a huge insult to his arranging abilities. Bruce advised him to stay with the project, and to this day, Dave is credited with creating those magnificent arrangements, although in reality it was all Marvin dictating those parts for the instruments. Dave was a terrific arranger but that project showed the depths of Marvins musicality and ability to create exactly the sound he wanted.

Thanks for the info Stu, Marvin was a genius !

[soulster]

Quick add to this FWIW. Arranger Dave VanDePitte and my brother Bruce were good friends back in those days. They had earlier played together in the Roostertail house band, and Bruce later became Paul Ankas Musical Director and brought Dave to New York to do some arrangements for Paul [[another story in itself)...but we discussed this on videotape during my and Bruces recent visit to The Motown Museum. During the WGO project Dave called Bruce and told him he wanted off the project. Seems that Dave, one of Motowns most prolific arrangers had his role on What's Going On reduced to doing take-downs of whatever Marvin told him to write. Everything on that recording came from Marvin, and VanDePitte considered it a huge insult to his arranging abilities. Bruce advised him to stay with the project, and to this day, Dave is credited with creating those magnificent arrangements, although in reality it was all Marvin dictating those parts for the instruments. Dave was a terrific arranger but that project showed the depths of Marvins musicality and ability to create exactly the sound he wanted.

Also, true that Berry Gordy initally rejected the entire WGO concept, and it was Harry Balk who actually convinced Berry to let the project go forward...

Well, Marvin was the real producer of this album. he had grown artistically. I'll bet that if he had had more courage, he would have left the label at that point.

[splanky]

Not for nothing but it always seemed to me that despite Marvin's fighting with Berry Gordy who was,
let's not forget, not only his employer but his brother-in-law at this time, Marvin was quite fond of making use of the various talents at Motown including not only the Funk Brothers but the vocal group
The Originals. To me he showed enough courage when he continued work on a project he knew the boss didn't approve or understand. For all that he accomplished Berry could often be short-sigthed...

[StuBass1]

During this video I did take note of Harry discussing just why Berry Gordy had his doubts about this project...everything from rejecting a new musical direction, to non Motown style fades, etc...and politics. Believe me...it was ALL about politics. Berry didn't have any problem when The Temptations under Norman Whitfield went psychedelic, or brought Ron Miller in to do "musical" type stuff, or the Mellow Mood phase. Berry had no problem expanding the labels musical styles to fit the artists or the contemporary music scene...but feared making waves in the broader society by sort of taking a stand on the political issues of the day, fearing he would alienate a large segment of his listening audience. Remember...he sent The Temptations into Richard Nixons White House to perform.

[nathanj06]

After almost 41 years I finally get the answer about that fade out and in on the single, What's Going On. I always figured it was a mistake and left in. Leave it to Marvin Gaye. I always loved it.

[soulster]

After almost 41 years I finally get the answer about that fade out and in on the single, What's Going On. I always figured it was a mistake and left in. Leave it to Marvin Gaye. I always loved it.

I knew it was on purpose, but I never knew exactly what the motivation for it was. I'm still trying to get an answer of why it was done on on Elvis Presley's record two years before.

Not that false fades was anything new, but it's not done very often.

[midnightman]

^ The false fade in "Suspicious Minds" was probably done on purpose too. Elvis was reportedly the producer of his recording sessions so it's possible he told the engineers to increase the "drama" in the song by giving it false ending after false ending. I think there were three false endings [[!) in Elvis' song. Whereas Marvin only had one false ending in WGO so his false ending was probably more deliberate because most Motown recordings ended on a perfect ending and this one didn't. LOL

[midnightman]

During this video I did take note of Harry discussing just why Berry Gordy had his doubts about this project...everything from rejecting a new musical direction, to non Motown style fades, etc...and politics. Believe me...it was ALL about politics. Berry didn't have any problem when The Temptations under Norman Whitfield went psychedelic, or brought Ron Miller in to do "musical" type stuff, or the Mellow Mood phase. Berry had no problem expanding the labels musical styles to fit the artists or the contemporary music scene...but feared making waves in the broader society by sort of taking a stand on the political issues of the day, fearing he would alienate a large segment of his listening audience. Remember...he sent The Temptations into Richard Nixons White House to perform.

Exactly. Plus Marvin approached this without the help of Motown so Gordy was almost hell-bent that such a move would not be accepted on his watch. The fact that it did happen shows the bravery of Marvin Gaye to me.

[rovereab]

This wasn't the first Motown song with a false fade. Do You Love Me by the Contours also included one.

[StuBass1]

Exactly. Plus Marvin approached this without the help of Motown so Gordy was almost hell-bent that such a move would not be accepted on his watch. The fact that it did happen shows the bravery of Marvin Gaye to me.

Marvins head was twisted, tweaked, and confused at that particular time. Tammi gone, marriage fading fast, brother Frankie throwing Nam tales, and whatever deeper issues that carried over from his childhood and his family situation...a pretty full plate...and that was a different Marvin than I used to see and joke around with down at Smokeys house when as a young kid I was a neighbor and Marvin would come riding around on his little Honda 50 scooter. This was an evolving Marvin Gaye dealing with a whole lot of issues. I'm sure all of this impacted the path Marvin ultimately walked down...but IMO...WGO was his signature statement and his crowning achievement. A masterpiece!

[soulster]

The false fade in "Suspicious Minds" was probably done on purpose too. Elvis was reportedly the producer of his recording sessions so it's possible he told the engineers to increase the "drama" in the song by giving it false ending after false ending.

Well, i'm not looking for speculation. I just wonder if there is something that is documented. The only person who is left that was there is the engineer. I'll see what I can find out.

I think there were three false endings [[!) in Elvis' song.

No, there's only one, just like in WGO.

... so his false ending was probably more deliberate because most Motown recordings ended on a perfect ending and this one didn't. LOL

I'm disputing that because there are scads of Motown songs, both stereo and mono, endings that are erratic.

[soulster]

The false fade in "Suspicious Minds" was probably done on purpose too. Elvis was reportedly the producer of his recording sessions so it's possible he told the engineers to increase the "drama" in the song by giving it false ending after false ending.

Well, i'm not looking for speculation. I just wonder if there is something that is documented. The only person who is left that was there is the engineer. I'll see what I can find out.

I think there were three false endings [[!) in Elvis' song.

No, there's only one, just like in WGO.

... so his false ending was probably more deliberate because most Motown recordings ended on a perfect ending and this one didn't. LOL

I'm disputing that because there are scads of Motown songs, both stereo and mono, endings that are erratic.

This wasn't the first Motown song with a false fade. Do You Love Me by the Contours also included one.

Correct. I didn't say WGO was the first, or that Elvis Presley's was the first, only that it was an uncommon practice. Ramsay Lewis Trio's "The "In" Crowd", and the Contours song are two more earlier examples. I can understand those two, as they are, or mimic a live performance that needs the excitement. But, the studio recordings are more curious. Marvin giving the finger on his song makes sense. I wonder where Harry got that tidbit from.

[midnightman]

Could've sworn there was three... then again I ain't heard Suspicious Minds in years. I love that Elvis song tho.

[midnightman]

Marvins head was twisted, tweaked, and confused at that particular time. Tammi gone, marriage fading fast, brother Frankie throwing Nam tales, and whatever deeper issues that carried over from his childhood and his family situation...a pretty full plate...and that was a different Marvin than I used to see and joke around with down at Smokeys house when as a young kid I was a neighbor and Marvin would come riding around on his little Honda 50 scooter. This was an evolving Marvin Gaye dealing with a whole lot of issues. I'm sure all of this impacted the path Marvin ultimately walked down...but IMO...WGO was his signature statement and his crowning achievement. A masterpiece!

That's true. Marvin had changed drastically from before Tammi's collapse, illness and death.

[soulster]

Could've sworn there was three... then again I ain't heard Suspicious Minds in years. I love that Elvis song tho.

You would have lost the bet badly!

[midnightman]

You would have lost the bet badly!

I'm glad I didn't bet money on it.