Girls leaving that caused the groups to go poof.

**soulballad** · 08-23-2012, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by smark21

Whichever Supremes songs did not include group members on vocals, it’s safe to conclude that Motown engaged in deception and consumer fraud which are potential criminal offenses. To be fair, Motown wasn’t the only label to engage in such practices, but at the end of the day, that’s what Motown did.

Exactly! Since everyone is so keen on setting the record straight and if we are to believe them then I want my money back from all of the purchases over the years! We should start a law suit against Motown and the entire recording industry. A lot of my money was taken by deceptive means!

**antceleb12** · 08-23-2012, 10:56 AM

Us fans just have to accept that it wasn't always just the original group [[or any of the back-ups at all) on the record. One extreme case that comes to mind is the Supremes' Christmas album, in which ALL of the tracks have the Andantes multitracked [[or substituted) on them. I know Mary, Flo, and Diana all recorded their lead and background vocals, but the Andantes, for one reason or another, were added to the entire album. I've always wondered about that. And it used to make me mad, because that was [[and is, still) a staple Christmas album for me. But it is what it is...

**marv2** · 08-23-2012, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Yes, but dont you see that the Supremes Complete Singles came after the Complete Motown Singles and they revisited this issue because they had found additional information ~ that the version with the Supremes was wiped and the Andantes were substituted.

I don't see the big deal unless there is this huge devotion to some vision of Mary and Flo.

Nonetheless, it apparently is the view of those in charge at Universal that it is the Andantes over the Supremes.

I'm only saying what's there.

The people you are talking about were't even there. I am going with what was documented by those that were there during the recording. We went through this same thing with Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her" and the claim that some made that it was Carol Kaye and not James Jamerson providing the bassline. Luckily Bob Babbitt stepped in along with others that were at the session and verified that it is indeed Jamerson playing on that record. All evidence [[and sound) say that it is Florence, Diana and Mary on "Stop In the Name of Love" anything else is just 45 year late speculation.

**marv2** · 08-23-2012, 11:44 AM

Mary Wilson was the first and only person to mention that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" in her book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". She even gave the reasons why. She did not say that she is not on "Stop In the Name of Love" because she, Flo and Diane are on that record. I hear them.

**marv2** · 08-23-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by soulballad

I think I'm an open minded person and I can accept the truth if it's from a reasonable source, however it seems that there are other motives involved in "setting the historical record straight". If you cant get the info right the first time why should I believe you at any time!

I'm starting to think that in order to work for Motown/Universal you must sign a contract agreeing to only say wonderful things and professing your love and admiration for Berry, Diana and Smokey! If you dont really believe that they are that fabulous and if you can't even pretend that you think they are that great, then you're out! LOL! I say that jokingly but there could be some truth to it.

I think you are right about other motives being involved here. In fact, I am certain of it!

**bradsupremes** · 08-23-2012, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Mary Wilson was the first and only person to mention that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" in her book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". She even gave the reasons why. She did not say that she is not on "Stop In the Name of Love" because she, Flo and Diane are on that record. I hear them.

Marv, do you realize there are two sets of vocals for "Stop! In The Name of Love?" The version issued on the Supremes 2000 box set is not the single version we all know and love. The vocals on the alternate version were recorded first. It is Diana, Mary and Flo. The single version was recorded a few days later. That version is Diana and the Andantes. You're right, Mary never said she didn't record "Stop! In The Name of Love." She, Diana and Flo did record the song! Just not the version that was released back in 1965.

Everyone wants to only believe those who were there which is not a problem at all. As with history, sources close to an event are more likely to be considered true. However, when some of your sources have died, cannot recall a particular event, or don't remember an event correctly then turning to other sources which have evidence of the event are not to be quickly dismissed. The Motown session logs and tape cards contain information that the people during the Motown days may not remember. And of course there are the master tapes which are the most telling. They contain the evidence that the people, the session logs, and tape cards don't have.

**soulballad** · 08-23-2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

Marv, do you realize there are two sets of vocals for "Stop! In The Name of Love?" The version issued on the Supremes 2000 box set is not the single version we all know and love. The vocals on the alternate version were recorded first. It is Diana, Mary and Flo. The single version was recorded a few days later. That version is Diana and the Andantes. You're right, Mary never said she didn't record "Stop! In The Name of Love." She, Diana and Flo did record the song! Just not the version that was released back in 1965.

Everyone wants to only believe those who were there which is not a problem at all. As with history, sources close to an event are more likely to be considered true. However, when some of your sources have died, cannot recall a particular event, or don't remember an event correctly then turning to other sources which have evidence of the event are not to be quickly dismissed. The Motown session logs and tape cards contain information that the people during the Motown days may not remember. And of course there are the master tapes which are the most telling. They contain the evidence that the people, the session logs, and tape cards don't have.

Weren't those same session logs and master tapes utilized when the singles colletions were being produced? Then they said it was Flo & Mary with Marlene. Doesn't it make you really wonder why a whole paragraph was dedicated to the Diane vs. Diana issue in the Meet the Supremes booklet when she still called herself Diane as late as the Copa [[and I'm sure beyond). Isnt it a bit odd that in the More Hits booklet the birthdays of Diana and Mary were mentioned but on the June 30th timelime Flo's was not. I'll play devils advocate for a minute. The more recently released version of Stop sounds a little different from the versions we've known for years but by the same token each time the song was performed live it was also done a little differently and sounded a little different. A different day can produce different results. At this point the arguement is moot. Those on each side will not ever be convienced! I will offer this to those who can hear me. Please do not be so quick to believe what is written or said especially now and especially from someone who wasn't really there and from people who are still out to make the biggest buck! I can read session logs and listen to master tapes all day [[and I have a trained ear) and sometimes you hear something differently. Plus the human mind is subjective. Tomorrow if HDH came on the board and said that they were the ones singing on Stop then all of sudden people will say. AHA, I knew it was men the whole time!

**jobeterob** · 08-24-2012, 01:52 AM

Brad is always a voice of reason about this issue.

Since Diana Ross & the Supremes Complete Singles was released with this revised information, I have listened to the released single and I now hear the Andantes and I have to say, I don't like the song as much as I used to. I'll pull out the box set and listen to that one.

Who would make a buck out of saying Diana sings with the Andantes on the single version? What is in it for anyone other than a music historian interested in Motown and Diana Ross and the Supremes?

It is interesting to read Tarraborelli's Michael Jackson book........because all the same arguments are made with respect to the Jackson 5..........Mike elevated himself, Mike didn't care for the others, Mike should have done another tour with the boys cuz their money was gone, Motown didn't promote the Jackson 5 when the hits stopped. Different group, same story.

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Brad is always a voice of reason about this issue.

Since Diana Ross & the Supremes Complete Singles was released with this revised information, I have listened to the released single and I now hear the Andantes and I have to say, I don't like the song as much as I used to. I'll pull out the box set and listen to that one.

Who would make a buck out of saying Diana sings with the Andantes on the single version? What is in it for anyone other than a music historian interested in Motown and Diana Ross and the Supremes?

It is interesting to read Tarraborelli's Michael Jackson book........because all the same arguments are made with respect to the Jackson 5..........Mike elevated himself, Mike didn't care for the others, Mike should have done another tour with the boys cuz their money was gone, Motown didn't promote the Jackson 5 when the hits stopped. Different group, same story.

Yeah and Bobby Taylor of the Vancouvers who discovered the The Jackson 5 and who was THERE said that this guy Taraborelli got it WRONG!. I posted the interview were Bobby said it on the forum very recently.

I go with the people that were there who did the recording and the documentation in Detroit. Sorry.,........

**jobeterob** · 08-24-2012, 11:35 AM

Randy goes all through the connections Bobby Taylor and Gladys Knight have to the early discovery of the J5 and also how the Motown machinery kicked in to have Diana Ross take over the "discovery".

Michael lapped it up and loved it.............and so did the brothers. And they did call her "Miss Ross", as you should Marv. It would do your soul good, you know you love her!

Michael told Joe he needed to learn PR!

As with everything else, Motown pushed all of that too far and everyone got tired of it, Michael included.

Michael could have given the brothers the "moon" and it wouldn't have been enough at one time...............just like Diana could have given Mary the moon and it wouldn't have been enough once, just like Smokey with the Miracles, Paul with the Beatles, Gladys with the Pips, Martha with the Vandellas, on and on and on.

Eventually, they all settle down and get happy in the end.

**marybrewster** · 08-24-2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by marv2

Mary Wilson was the first and only person to mention that she and Cindy Birdsong were not on "Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" in her book, "Dreamgirl, My Life As A Supreme". She even gave the reasons why. She did not say that she is not on "Stop In the Name of Love" because she, Flo and Diane are on that record. I hear them.

There goes that theory!

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by marybrewster

There goes that theory!

It is no theory, it is documented in writing in her book. Didn't you read it? You should. There are copies of it in every library in the U.S. and Canada. What she said in a concert in Austraila 3 years after the release of her best-seller is accurate.

Oh and for the record! She is not lying, she did record "Someday We'll Be Together" with Diane and Cindy and it is on their album, "Diana Ross & the Supremes Farewell" released in 1970!

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Randy goes all through the connections Bobby Taylor and Gladys Knight have to the early discovery of the J5 and also how the Motown machinery kicked in to have Diana Ross take over the "discovery".

Michael lapped it up and loved it.............and so did the brothers. And they did call her "Miss Ross", as you should Marv. It would do your soul good, you know you love her!

Michael told Joe he needed to learn PR!

As with everything else, Motown pushed all of that too far and everyone got tired of it, Michael included.

Michael could have given the brothers the "moon" and it wouldn't have been enough at one time...............just like Diana could have given Mary the moon and it wouldn't have been enough once, just like Smokey with the Miracles, Paul with the Beatles, Gladys with the Pips, Martha with the Vandellas, on and on and on.

Eventually, they all settle down and get happy in the end.

Blather, blather, blather. This guy, Randy got it wrong and Bobby Taylor cold busted him! That is all that matters to me........

**marybrewster** · 08-24-2012, 01:21 PM

LOL; keep grasping at straws. This same concert Mary also says "Reflections" was from 1965.

**jobeterob** · 08-24-2012, 01:29 PM

I have to love this irony:

Diana: "This guy Randy, he wrote a book about me, he doesn't know me"

Marv: "This guy Randy, he got it all wrong"

Soul Mates til the end!

**Roberta75** · 08-24-2012, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

I have to love this irony:

Diana: "This guy Randy, he wrote a book about me, he doesn't know me"

Marv: "This guy Randy, he got it all wrong"

Soul Mates til the end!

LOL. Now that's some funny stuff jobeterob.

Thanks for the laugh.

Roberta

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by marybrewster

LOL; keep grasping at straws. This same concert Mary also says "Reflections" was from 1965.

I'm not the one grasping. You brought it up! LOL!

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

I have to love this irony:

Diana: "This guy Randy, he wrote a book about me, he doesn't know me"

Marv: "This guy Randy, he got it all wrong"

Soul Mates til the end!

Well I could tell you some things, but it would cause your head to completely explode trying to figure it out! hehehehehehehehe!

**jillfoster** · 08-24-2012, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

....just like Diana could have given Mary the moon and it wouldn't have been enough once,

Your'e so right, Rob... being asked back to your old job for a 300 percent cut in pay was so generous, who in their right mind would turn it down?

**Roberta75** · 08-24-2012, 03:32 PM

I hope Ralph is keeping a watchful eye on this thread. I fear it's just about to go south.

Roberta

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by jillfoster

Your'e so right, Rob... being asked back to your old job for a 300 percent cut in pay was so generous, who in their right mind would turn it down?

I don't know who would turn down that sweet deal but I am extremely happy that Mary Wilson did! Berry Gordy paid them all equally!

**carole cucumber** · 08-24-2012, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

I don't know who would turn down that sweet deal but I am extremely happy that Mary Wilson did! Berry Gordy paid them all equally!

Contracts that were signed brought the Supremes equal pay.
But some have reported that Diana got other non-monetary amenities from Berry Gordy that the other Supremes did not. For example, Mary mentions that Diana received approval to take make-up classes at John Robert Powers, while she and Florence's request for a tutor from Wayne State University to further their education was turned down.

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

Contracts that were signed brought the Supremes equal pay.
But some have reported that Diana got other non-monetary amenities from Berry Gordy that the other Supremes did not. For example, Mary mentions that Diana received approval to take make-up classes at John Robert Powers, while she and Florence's request for a tutor from Wayne State University to further their education was turned down.

That's not true at all. When Diane got a fur from Berry, so did Mary and Flo. The reason she had to take additional classes at Robert Powers, is because she needed them! That's the part that is true and no one seems to want to own up to. She needed more cosmetic help than either Florence or Mary who were already va va voom .....beautiful!

**carole cucumber** · 08-24-2012, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

That's not true at all. When Diane got a fur from Berry, so did Mary and Flo. The reason she had to take additional classes at Robert Powers, is because she needed them! That's the part that is true and no one seems to want to own up to. She needed more cosmetic help than either Florence or Mary who were already va va voom .....beautiful!

Simply amazing!

"That's not true AT ALL....... THAT'S THE PART that is true...

One shouldn't contradict oneself in the same paragraph if one wants to offer proof.

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by carole cucumber

Simply amazing!

"That's not true AT ALL....... THAT'S THE PART that is true...

One shouldn't contradict oneself in the same paragraph if one wants to offer proof.

There is no contradiction on my part nor Mary Wilson's. You have a hard time understanding things. Diane received approval to get more help at Robert Powers that Florence and Mary neither needed or asked for! LOL! That was not a "non-monetary amenity" that proves that she got more than the others. That is a poor example. Come again.......

The bottomline is all three of the Supremes were paid equally!

**Ngroove** · 08-24-2012, 10:36 PM

The real reason behind Marvelettes, Martha & the Vandellas' gradual fading into obscurity; more sttention & promotion was given to the Supremes.

**marv2** · 08-24-2012, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ngroove

The real reason behind Marvelettes, Martha & the Vandellas' gradual fading into obscurity; more sttention & promotion was given to the Supremes.

That is right Ngroove!

**Ngroove** · 08-25-2012, 11:12 AM

Yeah, pulling out my "Dreamgirl" book by Mary Wilson, I remember reading this, on page 166:

" Just eight months after our first big hit, the Supremes were Motown's greatest commodity. But as great as the Motown machine was, it could work only on a couple acts at a time. As a result several other acts began receiving less attention than they deserved, especially since Berry was now spending so much time with us. Martha and the Vandellas, for example, saw their position erode at this time. Writers and producers still wanted to work with them, and they were still making great records. But Motown was still a small company, and our success was just too big for the setup. Before we hit, the promotional efforts would be concentrated on one act while it was hot; several weeks later, someone else would be hot. It all balanced out over the long run. The Supremes' constant success, however, threw a wrench in the works. I could see it happening, and I felt very bad about it. But I was too young to know how to approach my friends and tell them how I felt. It was all beyond my control".

**franjoy56** · 09-03-2012, 02:01 AM

Mary's take on the Motown promotion situation made a lot of sense, as stated in her book, she surely went through it with all this mess through the years until she left in 1977. can you imagine telling Mary Wilson that she and Flo were not on the released version of Stop in the Name of Love" the released version that has an extra voice in their belonging to a low alto singing andante, I too hear Flo and Mary on "Stop in the name of Love" and it seems foolish to undermine the efforts of Mary Wilson and Flo Ballard who were more than an essential part of the team.e.

**marv2** · 09-03-2012, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Mary's take on the Motown promotion situation made a lot of sense, as stated in her book, she surely went through it with all this mess through the years until she left in 1977. can you imagine telling Mary Wilson that she and Flo were not on the released version of Stop in the Name of Love" the released version that has an extra voice in their belonging to a low alto singing andante, I too hear Flo and Mary on "Stop in the name of Love" and it seems foolish to undermine the efforts of Mary Wilson and Flo Ballard who were more than an essential part of the team.e.

I probably would not have even paid attention to the Supremes if Mary Wilson and Florence were not there, in the group. In fact, I am sure of it!

**stephanie** · 09-03-2012, 08:37 AM

I always felt there was another voice with them on Stop in The Name of Love but it is clear to me that Flo and Mary are on that record. They are on 90 percent of their records excpet for the post Supremes stuff [[Diana Ross and the Supremes). Interestingly enough as a child I could tell on the Love Child album that Cindy and Mary are on some of those songs. When I heard the later Diana Ross and the Supremes albums I knew then we were being hoodwinked. When you hear songs like Glad I Got Somebody Like you Around, and Keep an Eye you know thats not Mary and Cindy.

**franjoy56** · 09-04-2012, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by stephanie

I always felt there was another voice with them on Stop in The Name of Love but it is clear to me that Flo and Mary are on that record. They are on 90 percent of their records excpet for the post Supremes stuff [[Diana Ross and the Supremes). Interestingly enough as a child I could tell on the Love Child album that Cindy and Mary are on some of those songs. When I heard the later Diana Ross and the Supremes albums I knew then we were being hoodwinked. When you hear songs like Glad I Got Somebody Like you Around, and Keep an Eye you know thats not Mary and Cindy.

Great point Steph, I remember reaing on wikipedia some time ago that Mary & Cindy appear on Keep an Eye, along with He's My Sunny Boy, and I'll Set You Free, the Andantes sing on the rest, but now wikipedia have removed this revealation, , but Hmsb and isyf are surely Birdie and Wilson.

**dvus7** · 03-07-2022, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by stephanie

I have always felt that Im Gonna Make you Love Me could have been a hit for just the Temps with or without Diana, Mary and Cindy.

I totally disagree....have u seen the temps do the song by themselves?? Something is obviously missing!! Diana Ross performed it with Stevie Wonder.

**marybrewster** · 03-07-2022, 11:51 AM

Well this thread is a blast from the past! Marv in rare form!

One thing I never saw mentioned; Destiny's Chile were seemingly more successful once LeToya and LaTavia were replaced by [[Farrah Franklin and) Michelle Williams.