The Marvelettes Unsung

[captainjames]

Thanks John, I enjoy'd seeing that but, I still found it a bit sad.

[RossHolloway]

I was more focused on the artists from the 1960's.

[Motown Eddie]

The [[retread) songs that Smokey recorded with Wanda & the Andantes were intended to be used on Wanda's solo album. Sometime after the songs were completed, Motown decided that most people would not recognize Wanda's name. It was then decided to market the lp as The Return Of The Marvelettes rather than a solo Wanda effort. That would explain the absence of Kat & Ann. Think of Diana's first solo album- it would be quite odd if Mary & Cindy provided backgrounds.
It was insane of Motown execs to want Katherine and Ann to pose for the cover photo. If they wanted to market the album as by the Marvelettes, they should have brought Kat & Ann into the studio to record backgrounds that would either replace or be blended with the Andantes background.

One thing about The Return of The Marvelettes LP. While I know that was originally planned as a Wanda Rodgers album, Motown used two songs; "That's How Heartaches Are Made" and "Uptown" from the group's previous album, In Full Bloom. Very strange. Anyway, I loved The Marvelettes UnSung episode. From the interviews with the surviving members of the group, the clips of them performing, to the teachers at the school at Inkster who helped launch them, the show told the story of the Marvelettes with style and grace.

[johnny_raven]

Motown's lawyers told them that a record released by The Marvelettes must have at least one song using The Marvelettes, so each side of The Return LP features 1 song by The Marvelettes, remixed from the In Full Bloom LP. Whether or not this is true, that's what my understanding is.

[captainjames]

I am hoping Kat and Ann recieved some royalties if that is the case but I am guessing no.

[westgrandboulevard]

Unless their contracts had expired, wouldn't anyone signed with Motown as 'a Marvelette' for recording/stage purposes, then be entitled to receive royalties as a matter of course, from any discs released under 'The Marvelettes' name - even if their voices had been replaced by session singers, who had been paid a flat rate for their services - ?

Apart from being released, the discs would, of course, have to actually sell copies before royalties became applicable. I don't think 'Return of The Marvelettes' was a big seller....?

And by that time, a member of The Marvelettes [[depending on their time with the group) entitled to royalties may still have owed Motown quite a sum in recording fees and other expenses going back years, so any royalties would simply reduce the outstanding balance on their account?

[Motown Eddie]

Motown's lawyers told them that a record released by The Marvelettes must have at least one song using The Marvelettes, so each side of The Return LP features 1 song by The Marvelettes, remixed from the In Full Bloom LP. Whether or not this is true, that's what my understanding is.

Well that explains why those two songs from In Full Bloom had to be included on The Return of The Marvelettes.

[RossHolloway]

So how were the Marvelettes paid say post-Gladys? Were they paid on a weekly or bi-weekly basis? And when did say Katherine and Ann actually stop getting paid by Motown when the group essentially stop recording and performing in 68-69? And have the living group members been receiving royalty payments from their record sales?

[reese]

So how were the Marvelettes paid say post-Gladys? Were they paid on a weekly or bi-weekly basis? And when did say Katherine and Ann actually stop getting paid by Motown when the group essentially stop recording and performing in 68-69? And have the living group members been receiving royalty payments from their record sales?

I think the book on the Marvelettes said that Katherine, Juanita, and Georgeanna's estate sued Motown to get their royalties, probably in the 90s sometime. Wanda, Ann, and Gladys were not part of the suit.

Not sure if its accurate, but the tabloid article on Wanda back in the 90s mentioned that she was receiving royalties.

[kenneth]

I think the book on the Marvelettes said that Katherine, Juanita, and Georgeanna's estate sued Motown to get their royalties, probably in the 90s sometime. Wanda, Ann, and Gladys were not part of the suit.

Not sure if its accurate, but the tabloid article on Wanda back in the 90s mentioned that she was receiving royalties.

Generally, recording artists would continue to get royalties on any records they had made, even long after they were no longer part of the group.

I believe that Mary Wells traded away her rights to future royalties in exchange for a large lump sum payment when she terminated her contract with Motown, as part of the settlement. I know that Florence Ballard also sued Motown when she was fired, but I don't know whether she lost her rights to future royalties by way of her shyster lawyer [[who was later disbarred). Hopefully not. If she didn't, her children would still receive royalties for her recordings today.

[RossHolloway]

Well that explains why those two songs from In Full Bloom had to be included on The Return of The Marvelettes.

Well that's an interesting bit of information. Now I wonder if this was also the policy for Martha Reeves and The Vandella's and Diana Ross and The Supreme's albums from the late '60s when the Andantes were used for most sessions...Now I will have to go home and look at all their albums from 1967 onwards to really see if actual group members were on at least one song/side on all their albums..or even the Marvin & Tammi albums...

[reese]

Generally, recording artists would continue to get royalties on any records they had made, even long after they were no longer part of the group.

I believe that Mary Wells traded away her rights to future royalties in exchange for a large lump sum payment when she terminated her contract with Motown, as part of the settlement. I know that Florence Ballard also sued Motown when she was fired, but I don't know whether she lost her rights to future royalties by way of her shyster lawyer [[who was later disbarred). Hopefully not. If she didn't, her children would still receive royalties for her recordings today.

Flo's 1968 settlement included a lump sum payment in which she gave up her right to future royalties, so unfortunately, her children don't receive anything. She sued Motown in 1971, but the judge wouldn't hear the case unless she could return the money that she received in the 1968 settlement, which was already gone.

Not sure if Mary Wells got any money upon her leaving. I thought she just received the right to leave the company. It was my understanding that she gave up any future Motown royalties, and that some of her post-Motown royalties had to be paid to Motown as well.

[kenneth]

Flo's 1968 settlement included a lump sum payment in which she gave up her right to future royalties, so unfortunately, her children don't receive anything. She sued Motown in 1971, but the judge wouldn't hear the case unless she could return the money that she received in the 1968 settlement, which was already gone.

Not sure if Mary Wells got any money upon her leaving. I thought she just received the right to leave the company. It was my understanding that she gave up any future Motown royalties, and that some of her post-Motown royalties had to be paid to Motown as well.

Regarding Flo, what a shame. I'm sorry to hear that.

I think you're right about Mary Wells. I think she got a big cash advance from 20th Century Fox, not a settlement from Motown. Your comment jogged my memory. Thanks.

[BayouMotownMan]

I came away from the show, which was excellently done, feeling quite sad for these women. I interviewed Gladys and spoke with her several times and although many are saying she was bitter, she didn't come across that way to me. It was matter-of-fact and she had accepted it. Gladys usually had only good things to say. She was an orphan, had a disabled child and had a tough life. She would not fly, I remember, and when she got gigs her son drove her.

I think the reason so many prominent Motowners did not participate here is for embarassment. The legacy of the Marvelettes should have been preserved.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

I still have a late 60's newspaper clipping reporting that Levi Stubbs was caught with drugs whilst in London. The report didn't say any more other than that he would be appearing in court.

I remember a DJ in Ottawa, Canada announce a current Four Tops record at the time and state that a concert appearance they were due to perform at in Vancouver was cancelled due to the group not being allowed into Canada because of a drug problem. With Canada, being part of the Commonwealth, it makes sense that an arrest in England would automatically bar them from entering Canada at the time. With your comment John, the pieces all fit together now.

[lakedistrictlad1]

I never thought i'd see such a programme. Great stuff. For a short run it packed a lot in. I still get a buzz listening to their music ALL these years later.
Sad to see how Wanda's life hasn't been all it should have been. But she was smiling at the end of the programme. That counts for a lot.

Thanks for the link John.

[BayouMotownMan]

When Wanda looked straight into the camera and said "People still love the Marvelettes," I smiled from ear to ear

[BayouMotownMan]

Mary Wells, the original Vandellas and the original Marvelettes did sue Motown in the 80s and 90s and received undisclosed out of court settlements. Mary Wells got hers shortly before she died

[pbenjamson@aol.com]

Is anyone else either shocked or sadden by the number of Motown artist that we now know either had a substance abuse problem or battled problems with alcohol? If Wanda had a drug problem during the mid-late 60's and beyond, does it not make one wonder about her then husband Bobby Rogers or the other Miracles? This episode of Unsung alluded to the fact that Wanda was "protected" thru her husband and Smokey Robinson. Was it just an open secret at Motown, that they just kept from the public? I would find it hard to believe that Berry or the other executives at Motown didn't know about these problems.

Marvin Gaye
David Ruffin
Paul Williams
Florence Ballard
Wanda Rogers
Levi Stubbs

Very unfortunately, Mary Wells had an extensive drug problem as well, which is described in my upcoming book, "Mary Wells: The Tumultuous Life of Motown's First Superstar." Her drug problem is one of the aspects of her life that made the last half of her life especially tumultuous. Peter Benjaminson.

[pbenjamson@aol.com]

Flo's 1968 settlement included a lump sum payment in which she gave up her right to future royalties, so unfortunately, her children don't receive anything. She sued Motown in 1971, but the judge wouldn't hear the case unless she could return the money that she received in the 1968 settlement, which was already gone.

Not sure if Mary Wells got any money upon her leaving. I thought she just received the right to leave the company. It was my understanding that she gave up any future Motown royalties, and that some of her post-Motown royalties had to be paid to Motown as well.

You're right about Flo, Reece. Mary also was paid for giving up her royalties. For both of them, it was a big mistake. No one knew how popular Motown records were going to be for the next 50 or more years.

[franjoy56]

I came away from the show, which was excellently done, feeling quite sad for these women. I interviewed Gladys and spoke with her several times and although many are saying she was bitter, she didn't come across that way to me. It was matter-of-fact and she had accepted it. Gladys usually had only good things to say. She was an orphan, had a disabled child and had a tough life. She would not fly, I remember, and when she got gigs her son drove her.

I think the reason so many prominent Motowners did not participate here is for embarassment. The legacy of the Marvelettes should have been preserved.

and the Marvelettes legacy was not preserved. In 1991 Gladys was flying with comments about what happened to the Marvelettes, she sent me a tape and it is very telling the interview she did when she performed in England in 1991 with Bill Rhandle. She spoke about writers credits, and how people at Motown would take writers credits for songs they had nothing to do with and "Playboy" was one of them. As the years went on Gladys sort of made peace with the way things were and accepted it, for instance she had praise for Diana for becoming a superstar, but in the 80's and 90's she was trying to make a Marvelettes rebirth, and things started standing in her way which was not pleasant for her, she did make some very successful tv performances one with two girls the other on her own that i remember. I last saw Gladys in 07 in Long Island on a show the Bobby Vee and Felix Cavaliere of the Rascals. Motown simply did not respect the legacy of the Marvelettes and just watching this episode you don't need Gladys to say a single word, she is now at peace.

[BayouMotownMan]

By not bringing Kat and Ann Bogan in to record the album, they did not have to pay them either!

Yes they did, they were still under contract. It is highly unlikely that the Marvelettes received much in the way of royalties after 1966. Most Motown artists stayed in the red because they were charged for so many things that unless they sold in huge numbers [[Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Marvin) they were always owing Motown money.

[BayouMotownMan]

By not bringing Kat and Ann Bogan in to record the album, they did not have to pay them either!

Yes they did, they were still under contract. It is highly unlikely that the Marvelettes received much in the way of royalties after 1966. Most Motown artists stayed in the red because they were charged for so many things that unless they sold in huge numbers [[Supremes, Tempts, Tops, Marvin) they were always owing Motown money.

[kenneth]

and the Marvelettes legacy was not preserved. In 1991 Gladys was flying with comments about what happened to the Marvelettes, she sent me a tape and it is very telling the interview she did when she performed in England in 1991 with Bill Rhandle. She spoke about writers credits, and how people at Motown would take writers credits for songs they had nothing to do with and "Playboy" was one of them. As the years went on Gladys sort of made peace with the way things were and accepted it, for instance she had praise for Diana for becoming a superstar, but in the 80's and 90's she was trying to make a Marvelettes rebirth, and things started standing in her way which was not pleasant for her, she did make some very successful tv performances one with two girls the other on her own that i remember. I last saw Gladys in 07 in Long Island on a show the Bobby Vee and Felix Cavaliere of the Rascals. Motown simply did not respect the legacy of the Marvelettes and just watching this episode you don't need Gladys to say a single word, she is now at peace.

There's an interview stored here, in which Gladys talks about the infringement on her rights, along with some audio of a concert. I can't tell for sure, but I think it's the same concert as the "Recorded Live on Stage" LP.

I don't really agree with the comparisons she makes to 9/11, but the lady obviously was mistreated by the music business.

http://soul-patrol.com/soul/marvelettes.htm

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Talk about perfect timing. The spotlight on The Marvelettes aired on the the radio program I was a cohost on last Sunday, on CITR 101.9 FM in Vancouver, followed by the Unsung television documentary on the group, made for a truly special week for their fans.

The entire 3 hour radio program, entitled "Shake A Tail Feather," hosted by Dj Vee, is now available on podcast. I listened with critical ears this afternoon, and apart from a few minor technical glitches, it is a damn good show, if I must say so myself. For the first hour, we featured some of the standout unreleased tracks from the recent Hip-0 Select release "The Marvelettes Forever More." The next two hours focused on the expanded editions of "More Hits By The Supremes," "Supremes At the Copa," Earl Van Dyke, The Miracles "Renaissance / Do It Baby," and the "Diana Ross" releases.

It's somewhat more difficult to obtain these wonderful CD collections in Canada, and many people never hear about them till way after they have sold out their limited pressing. Hopefully some listeners will be impressed enough to seek out some of this music.

Here's the link to the podcast. http://playlist.citr.ca/podcasting/a...722-180000.mp3

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Note to Peter Benjaminson. Peter, I am the proud owner of your Motown theme books and am anxiously awaiting your upcoming Mary Wells biography. Marc Taylor's book on the Marvelettes is as good as it could possibly be with the limited input of Gladys Horton, and lack of support from Ann Bogan.

I have since learned [[perhaps it was on the site mentioned above about a British interview) that Gladys was putting together her own memoir, which would be in the form of "Letters" to Berry Gordy, Smokey Robinson, etc. , playing on the "Mr. Postman" theme. Now, with the recent Unsung Marvelettes program, Ann Bogan seems more open in speaking of her experiences in the group.

I am wondering, in the light of all this renewed interest in The Marvelettes, and the access to previously unknown facts, if the time would be right for a much deeper examination of this pioneer recording group. Perhaps the surviving members of Gladys' family may have access to her proposed manuscript and would like to see it used to tell her story in her voice. What a powerful book that would potentially make, and I can't think of anyone else more qualified to undertake this than you.

[pbenjamson@aol.com]

Note to Peter Benjaminson. Peter, I am the proud owner of your Motown theme books and am anxiously awaiting your upcoming Mary Wells biography. Marc Taylor's book on the Marvelettes is as good as it could possibly be with the limited input of Gladys Horton, and lack of support from Ann Bogan.

I have since learned [[perhaps it was on the site mentioned above about a British interview) that Gladys was putting together her own memoir, which would be in the form of "Letters" to Berry Gordy, Smokey Robinson, etc. , playing on the "Mr. Postman" theme. Now, with the recent Unsung Marvelettes program, Ann Bogan seems more open in speaking of her experiences in the group.

I am wondering, in the light of all this renewed interest in The Marvelettes, and the access to previously unknown facts, if the time would be right for a much deeper examination of this pioneer recording group. Perhaps the surviving members of Gladys' family may have access to her proposed manuscript and would to see it used to tell her story in her voice. What a powerful book that would potentially make, and I can't think of anyone else more qualified to undertake this than you.

Thanks for the kind words, Mark. I'll definitely look into it. Peter.

[dvus7]

You're being too kind, hehehehehehehe.... If I were to tell you how Gladys Horton characterized it, it could start WWIII here. But as one of their principle writers, I would have thought that Smokey would have at least volunteered a few memories.

I'm pretty sure!!!! that Smokey was the one that was pulling Wanda out the group!!! And I'm pretty sure that Bobby rodgers was happy for IT!!!

[dvus7]

Is anyone else either shocked or sadden by the number of Motown artist that we now know either had a substance abuse problem or battled problems with alcohol? If Wanda had a drug problem during the mid-late 60's and beyond, does it not make one wonder about her then husband Bobby Rogers or the other Miracles? This episode of Unsung alluded to the fact that Wanda was "protected" thru her husband and Smokey Robinson. Was it just an open secret at Motown, that they just kept from the public? I would find it hard to believe that Berry or the other executives at Motown didn't know about these probl

Marvin Gaye
David Ruffin
Paul Williams
Florence Ballard
Wanda Rogers
Levi Stubbs

Thank you!!!! 100% agreement!!

[Kamasu_Jr]

Excellent program in my opinion. Glad to see the group getting its story told on a major cable network. I loved Kat's contributions. She gives it to you straight with candor and no bull. And I loved seeing Ann Bogan and Wanda both interviewed - finally. WANDA RODGERS is the queen of Motown sexy soul and is blessed to have her family's support. The parts about Gladys Horton's career disappointments made me want to punch AND KICK somebody, but it seems to be the fate of many veteran singers. I just shook my head and threw up my hands.

[franjoy56]

If they decided that the album was going to be a marvelette album instead of a wanda solo then Kat and Ann should have been overdubbed on at least half of the the tracks, and by the way Mary and Cindy appear on Diana's first album with the A's on the track "These Things will keep me lovin you". I tryly enjoyed the Marvelettes unsung i think it was the best unsung show I ever seen. It was great to see all of the living Marvelettest participate, and also the children of the marvelettes as well, and it was great to see Juanita tell how she felt and of course Katherine was right on. If Glady was alive and participated in this episode they would have had to edit a lot out because she was truly angered by her inability to perform thanks to the gaags put on her by Larry Marshak, and it was made possible by Motown selling the name to Marsahk, I am not going to reveal who sold it but Gladys certainly knows. Rest in peace Gladys the Marvelettes mainstay: No one can ever take away what she gave the Marvelettes..

I have been informed by a member of the Marvelettes family contrary to my earlier post that the Marvelettes name was not sold to Larry Marshak [[the promoter of unauthentic touring groups) by Motown. It is not known how he gained use of the name. However Gladys Horton was the last official Marvelette to perform on stage beyond the new millenium, all others are not the Marvelettes. Thank you Unsung for bringing the true Marvelettes Story "Out of the Closet" and for lining up The Marvelettes and the supporting staff to tell their story.

[franjoy56]

Thanks for the kind words, Mark. I'll definitely look into it. Peter.

Peter, I think Gladys story being told would be the perfect project for you to undertake next,. I know Gladys would be smiling on you if it cold be become a reality. Her demise should not had ended this soon, she had more work to do.

[marybrewster]

What happened to Gladys' book? She talked about it in the early 90's [[in a Florence Ballard Fan Club Newsletter). Or is this book a Motown Myth like Cindy's "Secrets of a Songbird". LOL.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Gordy lost the rights to the Horton book at the gambling tables in Las Vegas............................................. .[[just kidding....but the story is that he DID give up the rights to the Marvelettes name to cover massive losses at a gambling table in Vegas or elsewhere..)

[marybrewster]

Gordy lost the rights to the Horton book at the gambling tables in Las Vegas............................................. .[[just kidding....but the story is that he DID give up the rights to the Marvelettes name to cover massive losses at a gambling table in Vegas or elsewhere..)

LOL Jim. For all of the re-writing of history that goes on around here, I'm shocked I haven't heard that one before!

[Motown4Ever518]

I would be very interested in knowing the numbers for the various episodes of Unsung. The Marvelettes piece was one of the best in the series. All of us who love most things Motown will watch, I wonder if the stories are being viewed by those outside the core audience.

[marybrewster]

I would be very interested in knowing the numbers for the various episodes of Unsung. The Marvelettes piece was one of the best in the series. All of us who love most things Motown will watch, I wonder if the stories are being viewed by those outside the core audience.

Somewhere it was mentioned that over a million people tuned in to watch this episode, and if I understood correctly, it made it the most watched "Unsung" to date.

I see Facebook is all a-fire with the Marvelettes now. There is a new fan club page:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/The...75760009215936

and an effort to get them inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/101135096700721/

[Motown4Ever518]

Thank you Mary Brewster for the information, it makes me feel very good that it is one of the most watched Unsung episodes to date. I especially appreciate,showing Wanda Rogers doing as well as anyone who has been through what she has gone through. And on the same topic having read Mr. Taylors excellent book on the group the extremely tasteful way that Ms. Youngs previous issues were presented. to date. perhaps the producers can look into releasing DVD's in which the artists could possibly share in any funds generated.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

Reading the large amount of comments on the various threads regarding The Marvelettes on this site, interest in the group is at an all time high. The petition to induct the group into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame gains momentum daily. Facebook links to the Unsung segment, radio program tributes and upcoming interviews are getting a lot of attention. Hopefully Hip-o select will make available the Forever and Forever More Complete Album compilations in a more consumer friendly price range, as the first volume is already sold out. These sets are an absolute must have. It is my hope that the surviving members of this fabulous group gets to feel the love and esteem that they may not have been fully aware of previously.

[franjoy56]

Reading the large amount of comments on the various threads regarding The Marvelettes on this site, interest in the group is at an all time high. The petition to induct the group into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame gains momentum daily. Facebook links to the Unsung segment, radio program tributes and upcoming interviews are getting a lot of attention. Hopefully Hip-o select will make available the Forever and Forever More Complete Album compilations in a more consumer friendly price range, as the first volume is already sold out. These sets are an absolute must have. It is my hope that the surviving members of this fabulous group gets to feel the love and esteem that they may not have been fully aware of previously.

All of these accolades are long overdue and its about time.

[Penny]

All of these accolades are long overdue and its about time.

Fraujoy, I couldn't agree more. It is long overdue that the Marvelettes received this honor. They were trailblazers.

Penny