Question about the mixing process

[antceleb12]

I'm sure there's someone here who might have some idea about how mixing occurred in the studio.

My primary question is in regards to the dubbing and multitracking of the Andantes with the Vandellas and the Supremes. I know in the case with the Supremes, Marlene Barrow would stand in with Mary if Florence was absent, but in general, did Berry record the Andantes in the same sessions with the Vandellas/Supremes, or did he always record them separately? How does multitracking work?

Secondly, might anyone have any idea which Vandellas and Supremes tracks featured only the Andantes and which featured Vandellas/Supremes-Andantes combinations? I know that post-1967, almost all of the Supremes' singles featured only the Andantes.

Thirdly, I've always been puzzled by the way in which "Reflections" was mixed. For years, I've tried to understand what Florence and Mary were singing in the bridge section that is cut out in most versions of the song. I'm curious to know what kind of technology they used to create that effect in the background vocals.
Also, I've been listening over and over again to the version that's on "The #1's" and I'm wondering if that's actually Florence on the recording or if its an Andante. To me, it doesn't sound like Florence [[but that could be because of the mixing), and I've read things that have stated that it isn't Florence. I would like to believe that it is here, but I also thought for years that Flo was on "Hurry Love."

Thanks to anyone who might know!

[bradsupremes]

I'm sure there's someone here who might have some idea about how mixing occurred in the studio.

My primary question is in regards to the dubbing and multitracking of the Andantes with the Vandellas and the Supremes. I know in the case with the Supremes, Marlene Barrow would stand in with Mary if Florence was absent, but in general, did Berry record the Andantes in the same sessions with the Vandellas/Supremes, or did he always record them separately? How does multitracking work?

Secondly, might anyone have any idea which Vandellas and Supremes tracks featured only the Andantes and which featured Vandellas/Supremes-Andantes combinations? I know that post-1967, almost all of the Supremes' singles featured only the Andantes.

Thirdly, I've always been puzzled by the way in which "Reflections" was mixed. For years, I've tried to understand what Florence and Mary were singing in the bridge section that is cut out in most versions of the song. I'm curious to know what kind of technology they used to create that effect in the background vocals.
Also, I've been listening over and over again to the version that's on "The #1's" and I'm wondering if that's actually Florence on the recording or if its an Andante. To me, it doesn't sound like Florence [[but that could be because of the mixing), and I've read things that have stated that it isn't Florence. I would like to believe that it is here, but I also thought for years that Flo was on "Hurry Love."

Thanks to anyone who might know!

As explained to me, a multitrack tape is basically a reel magnetic tape. On that single tape there are small individual tracks for instruments and vocals [[ex. Strings on one track, vocals on another, bass on another, etc.) Imagine a piece of paper and on that piece of paper are 8 lines. Each of those lines contain the individual tracks. The tape can vary in size depending on the number of tracks. The smaller the tape, the less tracks [[3 track) or the bigger the tape, the more tracks [[8 tracks, 16 tracks, 24 tracks). Motown used 3 track multitracking up to 1965. They then began to use 8 track multitracking from 1965 to sometime in 1969 when they switched to using 16 track which allowed more space for additional instruments and vocals.

Regarding the Andantes begin added to a track, they were usually added at a later date separate from the group. An example would be the Supremes' "In And Out of Love." Mary and Florence recorded their vocals on June 12, 1967. The Andantes were brought in the next day and were dubbed in. There were a few instances where both the Supremes/Vandellas and the Andantes recorded together. "The Nitty Gritty" had both Mary & Cindy and the Andantes recording together. Most post-1967 recordings on ALL of the girl groups are the Andantes. For some reason, people have this idea that the Marvelettes and the Vandellas are present on a lot of their recordings after 1967 while the Andantes were added in for sweetening; however Mary and Cindy were completely replaced by the Andantes on Supremes recordings. The fact is that they were all replaced. If you listen to "Shoe Leather Expressway," it's Martha Reeves with the Andantes. No Vandellas. The same with the Marvelettes' "My Baby Must Be A Magician," etc. I tend to believe Mary and Cindy are on more of their recordings than the Vandellas and Marvelettes are on their own post-1967 tracks.

Most people don't like it to hear it, but I firmly believe Florence is not on "Reflections." It's just not her voice. Mary is on the song, but the soprano singing is not Flo. They don't have the same timbre or diction. Unless Florence is trying to sound so unlike herself [[and I have no clue as to why), it ain't her. I assume it's Marlene Barrow just because she subbed for Florence many times before and it was probably easier for her to blend Mary than it was try to find someone else. It was probably a no brainer decision [["Marlene's worked with Mary, put her in!") As for the mixing of the song, it was done after a song was recorded. I've heard a few mixes of "Reflections" where the background vocals were either turned up or turned down. It also depends on how much reverb [[the echoing sound) was used. That can play a role in how clearly things can be heard or not heard.

Here's what they are singing at the bridge: "All in vain / Reflections remain." I don't know why they cut that part out of the song. They do slide down off the note, but I always felt that added to the mood of the song.

[mowest]

Interesting stuff, bradsupremes; enjoyed reading it! And thanks to antceleb12 for asking the question.

[antceleb12]

As explained to me, a multitrack tape is basically a reel magnetic tape. On that single tape there are small individual tracks for instruments and vocals [[ex. Strings on one track, vocals on another, bass on another, etc.) Imagine a piece of paper and on that piece of paper are 8 lines. Each of those lines contain the individual tracks. The tape can vary in size depending on the number of tracks. The smaller the tape, the less tracks [[3 track) or the bigger the tape, the more tracks [[8 tracks, 16 tracks, 24 tracks). Motown used 3 track multitracking up to 1965. They then began to use 8 track multitracking from 1965 to sometime in 1969 when they switched to using 16 track which allowed more space for additional instruments and vocals.

Regarding the Andantes begin added to a track, they were usually added at a later date separate from the group. An example would be the Supremes' "In And Out of Love." Mary and Florence recorded their vocals on June 12, 1967. The Andantes were brought in the next day and were dubbed in. There were a few instances where both the Supremes/Vandellas and the Andantes recorded together. "The Nitty Gritty" had both Mary & Cindy and the Andantes recording together. Most post-1967 recordings on ALL of the girl groups are the Andantes. For some reason, people have this idea that the Marvelettes and the Vandellas are present on a lot of their recordings after 1967 while the Andantes were added in for sweetening; however Mary and Cindy were completely replaced by the Andantes on Supremes recordings. The fact is that they were all replaced. If you listen to "Shoe Leather Expressway," it's Martha Reeves with the Andantes. No Vandellas. The same with the Marvelettes' "My Baby Must Be A Magician," etc. I tend to believe Mary and Cindy are on more of their recordings than the Vandellas and Marvelettes are on their own post-1967 tracks.

Most people don't like it to hear it, but I firmly believe Florence is not on "Reflections." It's just not her voice. Mary is on the song, but the soprano singing is not Flo. They don't have the same timbre or diction. Unless Florence is trying to sound so unlike herself [[and I have no clue as to why), it ain't her. I assume it's Marlene Barrow just because she subbed for Florence many times before and it was probably easier for her to blend Mary than it was try to find someone else. It was probably a no brainer decision [["Marlene's worked with Mary, put her in!") As for the mixing of the song, it was done after a song was recorded. I've heard a few mixes of "Reflections" where the background vocals were either turned up or turned down. It also depends on how much reverb [[the echoing sound) was used. That can play a role in how clearly things can be heard or not heard.

Here's what they are singing at the bridge: "All in vain / Reflections remain." I don't know why they cut that part out of the song. They do slide down off the note, but I always felt that added to the mood of the song.

Wow! Thank you for all of that, it's greatly appreciated!

I believe "Back In My Arms Again" was the first Motown track to use the new 8-track system, if I remember what I read correctly.
I've always wondered why Gordy started using the Andantes more and more. My guesses are for convenience as each group became busier with touring and/or to create a fuller sound. Regardless, I always thought the Andantes had a great sound, but I hate that they're on other artists' recordings.
As for "Reflections," that's what I thought. It sounds like Marlene, as she is also on "Hurry Love." I'm not sure what else she is on, though [[I've heard that she was on "My World is Empty...," but the vocals are mixed so low I can't tell). And thanks for the lyrics bit. I wasn't sure if what they sang live was on the recording, but that makes sense.

[chidrummer]

Just to add a little clarity to bradsupreme's reply and while trying not to geek out too much on the issue of multitracking.
Multitracking is an application developed by the late, great Les Paul and several others. The number of tracks available to the user depends on the size of the tape AND the type of machine used. 8 track can be recorded on 1/4 cassette reels, 1",2" or 3" tape. 16 & 24 tracks can be recorded on 1"-3" tape. 32 track was mainly a 3" tape medium.

All of that has become irrelevant since the advent of Pro Tools in the early 90's. You would be amazed at a 133 track, three screen scan from the typical blockbuster movie of today. The amount of tracks and manipulation is virtually unlimited these days.

I'm not quite sure what you mean or are as an effect on the back ground vocals of Reflections. The vocals seem to been mixed with the higher end [[10K and above) along with the lower end [[60 and below) lopped off. That makes the vocal sound very mid rangy or boxy. Could that be the sound you're hearing? Other than that, I don't hear any effects [[reverb, flanging, phase shifting, panning, etc.) I hear far more edits to the rhythm track than anything else. I wonder could we convince HW to have Universal's engineers clean some of that stuff up?

As to who's singing what, I couldn't tell you. I do hear a woman with an awfully low voice singing b/g. If Mary was the group's alto, the voice I'm hearing sounds nothing like her.

[antceleb12]

Just to add a little clarity to bradsupreme's reply and while trying not to geek out too much on the issue of multitracking.
Multitracking is an application developed by the late, great Les Paul and several others. The number of tracks available to the user depends on the size of the tape AND the type of machine used. 8 track can be recorded on 1/4 cassette reels, 1",2" or 3" tape. 16 & 24 tracks can be recorded on 1"-3" tape. 32 track was mainly a 3" tape medium.

All of that has become irrelevant since the advent of Pro Tools in the early 90's. You would be amazed at a 133 track, three screen scan from the typical blockbuster movie of today. The amount of tracks and manipulation is virtually unlimited these days.

I'm not quite sure what you mean or are as an effect on the back ground vocals of Reflections. The vocals seem to been mixed with the higher end [[10K and above) along with the lower end [[60 and below) lopped off. That makes the vocal sound very mid rangy or boxy. Could that be the sound you're hearing? Other than that, I don't hear any effects [[reverb, flanging, phase shifting, panning, etc.) I hear far more edits to the rhythm track than anything else. I wonder could we convince HW to have Universal's engineers clean some of that stuff up?

As to who's singing what, I couldn't tell you. I do hear a woman with an awfully low voice singing b/g. If Mary was the group's alto, the voice I'm hearing sounds nothing like her.

Thanks for that!

That's exactly what I'm referring to - the boxy sound. Thanks for the info!