DMF singing People in the "Orient"

smark21 · 06-15-2012, 10:02 PM

**BigAl** · 06-16-2012, 08:52 AM

How interesting that both Florence and Mary were given breakout leads here. When I saw them, Flo had the first couple of verses, then Diane took the final chorus, and finally Flo led them all in at the very end.

**Bokiluis** · 06-19-2012, 11:32 AM

Sometimes it is easy to forget just how huge The Supremes were. If this were the MTV days, they would have dedicated an entire special to "The Supremes in the Orient". Unfortunately, The Supremes have not even received a proper 50th Anniversary celebration. Though The Beach Boys also were very popular, The Supremes eclipsed them as the most popular American group from 1964-1969. And that was not only the singles, but, multi-platinum selling albums in "Where Did Our Love Go", "More Hits by", "Sing Holland, Dozier, Holland", "A Go Go" amongst others. No acts sold the types of quantities that were sold in the 90s, even The Beatles. However, TLC and The Spice Girls have more registered RIAA sales than The Supremes. But in actuality, The Supremes still reign as the #1 girl group in the world, to this day.....if you extrapolated their sales into current numbers, those 20 million albums sold, would be much closer to 50 million albums.
But here comes The Beach Boys with a new album and a new tour. Of course, neither was possible for The Supremes, but, The Beatles are down to two living members and they still get first class promotion.
The Beach Boys resurgence was handled so well that I ended up buying "The Pet Sounds: Complete Sessions".
But The Supremes' 50th Anniversary has practically come and gone with only another compilation and the Ed Sullivan appearances on DVD. You would have thought that VH1 and BET would have done specials on both them and The Temptations. Why wasn't "T.C.B." and/or "G.I.T." not re-air on PBS. Every time that iTunes promotes one of their compilations, especially "#1s", the sales are quite impressive. So I honestly feel it is a matter of Motown/Universal does not have the vision to insure that their legacy lives on.
It doesn't take a marketing whiz to see a lost opportunity.
The Supremes television specials should have re-aired on PBS, VH1 and BET!
i'm sure if Berry Gordy was still at the helm, the legacy of his Mount Rushmore roster would be properly promoted.
How will a new generation know without being told? How will the Baby Boomers be reignited without proper promotion?
Sure rock acts have a different trajectory, but, surely if The Supremes were properly promoted, their 50th Anniversary would have been a lot more celebratory.

**Penny** · 06-19-2012, 11:39 AM

Bokiluis I admire your knowledge and passion. I think the answer to your heartfelt questions boil down to three initials.

RTL

Your friend;
Penny

**luke** · 06-19-2012, 11:55 AM

Very well said Bokiluis. It is so rarely stated the Supremes were the biggest selling American group then, not just girl group. The Beach Boys were as estranged as the Supremes were before their current tour and two Beatles are dead yet their legacies have been much more heavily promoted then the Supremes.

**skooldem1** · 06-19-2012, 12:05 PM

Not trying to imply anything, but does anyone feel that the Supreme Legacy was greatly tarnished when Mary released her book?

**Bokiluis** · 06-19-2012, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Penny

Bokiluis I admire your knowledge and passion. I think the answer to your heartfelt questions boil down to three initials.

RTL

Your friend;
Penny

Penny, I was privileged to see "Return to Love" in of all places, Detroit. If you attended that show, I hope you will agree that it was simply amazing. I honestly did not miss marywilson or Cindy. [[After their disastrous appearance on Motown 45, neither women looked ready for prime time). Ironically to me, though they were virtually the same age, both Lynda Laurence and Scherrie Payne looked like younger, vibrant versions of marywilson and Cindy.
i am biased because I have been a Diana Ross admirer since 1964.
But "Return to Love" was plagued by unfair, in my opinion bad press. Without reigniting the same old issues, one particular person had a vendetta and that vendetta went viral because people tend to be drawn to controversy more than reality sometimes. Never forget before SFX pulled the plug, Madison Square Garden was sold out. Also Lynda attended one of the Diana Ross fan events and stated unequivocally that SFX or was it FX, tried to coerce Diana into a long term touring contract, which she wasn't interested in. You can believe what you believe. I just saw it as "Return to Love" became a victim of Murphy's Law.
All that stated, the end result of "Return to Love" should not have forced near inaction from Motown/Universal on the 50th Anniversary. [[They had tried to capitalize on the tour by preparing The Supremes boxset in the pink hues of the tour).

**Bokiluis** · 06-19-2012, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

Not trying to imply anything, but does anyone feel that the Supreme Legacy was greatly tarnished when Mary released her book?

Unfortunately, it most certainly didn't help. But Keith Richards wrote a pretty warts and all bio of The Stones without any measurable repercussions. The whole Yoko Ono thing, didn't affect The Beatles. Even Paul McCartney wanting to change the writing credits of his songs from "Lennon/McCartney" to either "McCartney/Lennon" or simply "McCartney" didn't hurt the long term legacy of The Beatles.

**Bokiluis** · 06-19-2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Very well said Bokiluis. It is so rarely stated the Supremes were the biggest selling American group then, not just girl group. The Beach Boys were as estranged as the Supremes were before their current tour and two Beatles are dead yet their legacies have been much more heavily promoted then the Supremes.

Thanks Luke. Is it possible that The Supremes songs were possibly too teenybopper? But The Beach Boys Pre-"Pet Sounds" had the dated surfer sound.

**detmotownguy** · 06-19-2012, 12:23 PM

At times it seems that the Motown legacy is a "throwaway" commodity. The resultant music is one of the great wonders of the world that should be celebrated and respected.

**luke** · 06-19-2012, 02:00 PM

I agree. Look at You Keep Me Hangin on one of the greatest records/songs ever; many critics have raved about the Supremes-but rock and roll is sexist and they didnt write their own stuff. Yet if Universal pushed it I think things would be different.

**jobeterob** · 06-19-2012, 02:15 PM

Penny is right.

It wasn't that RTL was a bad show, nor that it did not have it's sellouts; no one cares that Diana really shut it down by refusing to kiss SFX's ass.

But the perception was that it was unsuccessful. That is all that is left of it. That and that it ended relationships and reunions.

There were news stories around thereafter that all the Supremes, and everything connected with the Supremes, suffered reduced bookings and demand after it shut down. As I recall, at least one of those news stories said that nobody suffered more than Mary Wilson.

And you'll recall, shortly thereafter Diana had an aborted tour as she dealt with the alcohol issue.

I believe all of that hurt the Supremes brand a lot but it also hurt the Motown brand.

And that is why there was not more of a bump for Motown 50 or Supremes 50 or Temptations 50.

There are really only two working Motown stars that still tour and attract attention - Stevie and Diana.
Perhaps Smokey and Gladys. And there is the later day Lionel who recently had a hit. If all of them got together for something, that would attract attention. Maybe Berry can get them to "guest star" for a time in his Broadway show. Now that would get attention.

What is out there for Temptations and Supremes are replacement replacements; men and women saying they are Supremes and Temptations but they were born after Berry moved Motown to LA or after the Supremes folded. Otis and Mary have no sound that is recognizable as the classic Supremes or Temptations sound ~ Otis is not known for any sound; Mary sounds nothing like the sounds that came from Diana or Jean. I dislike the idea ~ but some of these tribute groups come closer to the "sound" than anything connected with the original group.

That's why Motown 50 fizzled.

**carlo** · 06-19-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Penny is right.

It wasn't that RTL was a bad show, nor that it did not have it's sellouts; no one cares that Diana really shut it down by refusing to kiss SFX's ass.

I agree that RTL was not a bad show. I saw it in Toronto in 2000 and it was wonderful.

Yes, the rumour is out there [[and I say rumour, because I don't think SFX or Diana ever officially confirmed this), that SFX wanted Diana to extend the tour for three years and when Diana refused, they cancelled the tour. Many fans think that this means the tour was not cancelled due to poor ticket sales, but rather because Diana said "no". I do not think this is the case. From an accounting perspective, if SFX wanted to extend the tour, then they were likely doing so because the up-front fixed costs for the tour were huge. By extending it, perhaps they were hoping that the losses would eventually turn into a profit, especially if they were to bring the tour to Europe. It sounds like Diana did not want to do that, so SFX pulled the plug sooner, rather than later, to reduce the damage. This is my personal assessment/opinion, not fact. At the end of the day, the tour didn't do well.

**carlo** · 06-19-2012, 03:53 PM

Motown 25 did so well because it was a true reunion of the entire [[well-amost) Motown family. It brought back the music and the memories that everyone holds so dearly. Motown 45 did not accomplish that, in my opinion. Many of our Motown legends have passed on or are no longer in good health to be performing onstage, which is why Motown 50 unfortunately came and went without much fan fare. I am thankful for all of our legends who are still out there on the road and touring, like Diana Ross, Mary Wilson, Martha Reeves, The Original Vandellas, Otis Williams, Duke Fakir, etc. However, I don't think we will ever see another reunion and/or TV special like Motown 25. If they would have done a Motown 50 special, it would have been all sorts of young talent taking the stage to pay tribute, which is really unexciting. It's sad because I don't think cable TV is interested in doing a proper Motown TV special/tribute anymore. Thank God for TJ Lubinsky and PBS, who work hard to preserve and present musical histories and legacies in a respectable manner.

**jobeterob** · 06-19-2012, 05:04 PM

I agree.

Don't you think though, that there could be some excitement generated and tickets sold by some arrangement with Lionel, Smokey, Gladys, Diana, and Stevie? I don't know if such a show would be possible let alone more than one show. But I think that would be a smoking celebration of Motown before all of these people are done touring.

Probably the logistics and egos of that would be pretty tough though.

**markdtiller** · 06-19-2012, 05:24 PM

I saw Mary last year at the Indigo O2 in London, when she was on tour with The Chi-Lites and she sounded magnificent, best I've heard her. I doubt any Motown singer working today still sounds as good and gets better with age. Diana barely seems to make an effort and trades on her star status, Martha's voice is shot, very shrill, Stevie and The Tempts have all seen better days. Save for Gladys maybe, I don't know how she sounds live these days.

**carlo** · 06-19-2012, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Don't you think though, that there could be some excitement generated and tickets sold by some arrangement with Lionel, Smokey, Gladys, Diana, and Stevie?

It's possible, however I have a hard time imaging Diana sharing the bill with anybody. I don't say this out of disrespect, but I don't think Diana has done many of these types of shows. The only exception is "Divas With A Heart" at Radio City in New York, which received rave reviews and press. I think doing these sorts of engagements would be a good thing, but to be honest, I would rather just go to a concert and see Diana for 80 minutes in an intimate venue, rather than a big group tour where I'll only see her do a 45 minute set.

**carlo** · 06-19-2012, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by markdtiller

I saw Mary last year at the Indigo O2 in London, when she was on tour with The Chi-Lites and she sounded magnificent, best I've heard her. I doubt any Motown singer working today still sounds as good and gets better with age. Diana barely seems to make an effort and trades on her star status, Martha's voice is shot, very shrill, Stevie and The Tempts have all seen better days. Save for Gladys maybe, I don't know how she sounds live these days.

Mary is still fantastic. Gladys was great when I saw her two years ago. Smokey still puts on an entertaining show and sells out every time he's here.

Diana's voice has faded a little, but she still captivates her audiences with much glitz and glamour. I saw her in September and was fortunate to have front row seats in the pit. I loved every minute of it.

The only reoccurring complaint I've read about Diana's shows in recent years is that she doesn't seem to be spontaneous enough. She doesn't really do much interacting with the audience and sticks to the music. With all of the songs she performs and costume changes that she makes in the time that she's restricted to, I guess it wouldn't leave any time for talking? When I saw Aretha, she did quite a bit of talking, but it seemed a little scripted, distant and insincere.

Diana sometimes does interact with the audience. In March, she walked out into the audience after years of not doing that, which surprised everybody. But then all sorts of audience members ended up leaving their seats and flooded the aisles to take photos of her with their cell phones. Maybe that's why Diana doesn't do it anymore? How can she connect to the audience in an authentic manner when everybody is too preoccupied taking photos and videos with their electronic devices?

**jobeterob** · 06-19-2012, 07:51 PM

Do you think that it's possible some of these singers are told to cut the chatter to save the voice, due to their age? I often wonder.

I agree with Carlo about preferring to see any one of these singers do a show as opposed to some kind of revue with all of them.

And it's probably true that after all these years, Diana isn't going to be doing a lot of ensemble.

But it sure would be a treat to see someone put these people together for a show ~ Berry as part of his Broadway show, or Suzanne, or whomever has some connections.

And it certainly doesn't rule out including groups like the Temptations and artists like Martha Reeves.

**carlo** · 06-19-2012, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Do you think that it's possible some of these singers are told to cut the chatter to save the voice, due to their age? I often wonder.

I sing and while I'm by no means a professional singer, I know that there are tips and techniques when it comes to talking. During the off times, when you're not singing, you're supposed to reduce the strain on your vocal chords as much as possible. That can be accomplished in a number of ways. I find that talking in a more breathier manner tends to put less strain on the vocal chords. Diana has said in the past that when she's on tour, she limits her talking in between shows as much as possible. Doing that helps one's vocal chords to heal/recover that much quicker. They're just like any other muscle in your body. If you've been doing bicep curls at the gym, you gotta take a period of time off to rest afterwards in order to heal the mini-tears that are created.

However, I don't know if all of this also explains the lack of interacting/talking she does during her shows. It's hard to say. It could be, but even doing a small amount of chatter during your show won't have a huge affect, unless your vocal chords are very, very weak...and I don't think that's the case with Diana. It was definitely the case with Whitney, unfortunately.

**skooldem1** · 06-19-2012, 08:26 PM

For a long period of Diana's career, many critics and concert goers use to say she talked too much. Almost all of her recent reviews mention the fact that she doesn't talk much to the audience. When she talked, it was too much. Now that she cut the chatter out, critics still aren't satisfied. On a good day, Diana's voice last only about 80 minutes or so. Then she starts to get raspy and hoarse. It is a calculated move on her part. She just hits them with the hits and saves her voice.

**jobeterob** · 06-20-2012, 12:53 PM

I think you are right; her instinct would tell her to talk but she's been told to back it off. I listened to the Endless Love that Carlo posted from St. Lucia and while it's great to hear her doing a song she doesn't do very often anymore ~ it's pretty clear to me that 50 years of singing and aging does change the voice somewhat.

**Roberta75** · 06-20-2012, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by markdtiller

I saw Mary last year at the Indigo O2 in London, when she was on tour with The Chi-Lites and she sounded magnificent, best I've heard her. I doubt any Motown singer working today still sounds as good and gets better with age. Diana barely seems to make an effort and trades on her star status, Martha's voice is shot, very shrill, Stevie and The Tempts have all seen better days. Save for Gladys maybe, I don't know how she sounds live these days.

Martha's voice is not shot marktiller. In fact Miss martha Reeves sounds better than Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and I like both ladies. What Martha brings to the stage is a fabulous voice, a great personality and a star quality that shines brighter than any other lady.

The first lady of Motown Miss martha Reeves is still very much in demand on TV and on stage and has recently been back in the charts. Martha also has a new live album out which is fantastic.

Respectfully yours.

Roberta

**ejluther** · 06-20-2012, 01:42 PM

In fact Miss martha Reeves sounds better than Diane Ross and Mary Wilson and I like both ladies.

No offense but there is no "fact" involved in discussions like this - it's purely subjective as taste always is...

**Roberta75** · 06-20-2012, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by ejluther

No offense but there is no "fact" involved in discussions like this - it's purely subjective as taste always is...

You are correct. I should have added IMO and IMO Martha Reeves does sound better than Diane Ross and mary Wilson.

Thank you,

Roberta

**detmotownguy** · 06-20-2012, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

I think you are right; her instinct would tell her to talk but she's been told to back it off. I listened to the Endless Love that Carlo posted from St. Lucia and while it's great to hear her doing a song she doesn't do very often anymore ~ it's pretty clear to me that 50 years of singing and aging does change the voice somewhat.

Maybe she had cold cause she did sound a bit hoarse. Possibly a just a bad transfer to YouTube.

**Bokiluis** · 06-21-2012, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by ejluther

No offense but there is no "fact" involved in discussions like this - it's purely subjective as taste always is...

Hallelujah! Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like living in an alternate universe where marywilson and Martha Reeves sound better than Diana. Really? Really? What can one say after a statement like that but. Really?

**Roberta75** · 06-21-2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bokiluis

Hallelujah! Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like living in an alternate universe where marywilson and Martha Reeves sound better than Diana. Really? Really? What can one say after a statement like that but. Really?

Yes really. I did correct myself and say "In my opinion" so why not respectfully disagree and give your viewpoint instead of just saying really?

Best to you,

Roberta

**jobeterob** · 06-21-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Boikluis
"Hallelujah! Sometimes reading posts in this forum is like living in an alternate universe where marywilson and Martha Reeves sound better than Diana. Really? Really? What can one say after a statement like that but. Really?"

What I think needs to be commented on is that on this Forum, we are not dealing with your average "joe on the street" that knows a couple of Motown songs - like My Girl and Stop in the Name of Love, and who thinks Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin are "Motown". On SD, we are people who know all the songs, all the background singers on the songs, what songs "should" have been hits, who "should" have had more successful careers etc.

It's different on a Soul Music Forum, especially one that has run for years than it would be in the American Idol audience.

In the American Idol audience, you will get a lot of vague looks if you mention the names of Temptations, Supremes, and Vandellas ~ and perhaps even Martha Reeves. You won't get those vague looks on SD - these people are known here.

Therefore, we can't always expect that everyone will agree and bow to the suggestion that it's all about Diane, Diana, Diana. The lady was great; she is American music history; but.............Martha Reeves did sing Dancing in the Street, more American music history.

**jillfoster** · 06-21-2012, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by carlo

I agree that RTL was not a bad show. I saw it in Toronto in 2000 and it was wonderful.

Yes, the rumour is out there [[and I say rumour, because I don't think SFX or Diana ever officially confirmed this), that SFX wanted Diana to extend the tour for three years and when Diana refused, they cancelled the tour. Many fans think that this means the tour was not cancelled due to poor ticket sales, but rather because Diana said "no". I do not think this is the case. From an accounting perspective, if SFX wanted to extend the tour, then they were likely doing so because the up-front fixed costs for the tour were huge. By extending it, perhaps they were hoping that the losses would eventually turn into a profit, especially if they were to bring the tour to Europe. It sounds like Diana did not want to do that, so SFX pulled the plug sooner, rather than later, to reduce the damage. This is my personal assessment/opinion, not fact. At the end of the day, the tour didn't do well.

And this makes total sense. SFX is in the business to make money, and if that tour was making it, there is no way in HELL they would be pulling the plug on it. Anything else is desperate fans grasping at straws.

But back to the original topic... much has been said about the performances of "People", and Flo did sound nice, but sorry... Mary walked away with that song. I would ahve come away from that concert mad as a hornet that Mary Wilson wasn't leading the group on all of the slow numbers.

**antceleb12** · 06-22-2012, 12:39 AM

Thank you, Smark21, for posting my video [[and by "my," I mean the video I uploaded)!

I find this turn in conversation very interesting. One member remarked that Rock 'n' Roll is "sexist." That's very interesting. I've never thought about it like that, since I did not grow up in that era. I could be totally off-base here, but could it be that the Supremes' lack of iconic status in comparision to the Beatles and the Beach Boys be due in part to the fact that the Supremes were female? I mean, look at their sales records - hit after hit, album after album. Everything about the Supremes was idolized back in the day [[even their hair!). People had their own favorite Supreme and they each had their own distinctive personality. Now today, if you ask anyone who Mary Wilson or Florence Ballard are, you'd get a blank look [[or, at best, a reference to "Dreamgirls" with Florence). I've often wondered why the Supremes' musical contributions aren't recognized as greatly as they should today.

**jillfoster** · 06-22-2012, 02:20 AM

It's because they didn't write their own songs.... or weren't considered vocally "brilliant" like Dusty Springfield or Karen Carpenter.

**BigAl** · 06-22-2012, 09:09 AM

Although fans and aficionadi are well aware of the great talent possessed by The Supremes, both individually and collectively, the industry has nonetheless largely dismissed them as a creation of Motown — all "veneer." Further, they have also been regarded as little more than a springboard for Diane's solo career because, by and large, few ever got to see or hear what Mary and Flo could do. So, all in all, the group appeared to the casual observer to be something of a contrivance rather than a creative force. They did not write their own material, did not produce it, and so forth. Then, when they "went Vegas," that effectively ended any real interest from the R&R and R&B sectors, leaving them to be perceived as a solid mainstream light-pop act, but, sadly, also gave them the reputation of having little actual musical substance, when nothing could have been further from the truth.

**detmotownguy** · 06-22-2012, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by BigAl

Although fans and aficionadi are well aware of the great talent possessed by The Supremes, both individually and collectively, the industry has nonetheless largely dismissed them as a creation of Motown — all "veneer." Further, they have also been regarded as little more than a springboard for Diane's solo career because, by and large, few ever got to see or hear what Mary and Flo could do. So, all in all, the group appeared to the casual observer to be something of a contrivance rather than a creative force. They did not write their own material, did not produce it, and so forth. Then, when they "went Vegas," that effectively ended any real interest from the R&R and R&B sectors, leaving them to be perceived as a solid mainstream light-pop act, but, sadly, also gave them the reputation of having little actual musical substance, when nothing could have been further from the truth.

In Detroit anyway, most of us had our fav Supreme photo tacked to the bedroom wall along with other artists as well. Maybe in my neighborhood we we we more than casual observers because we all had our fav Sup. They will hopefully will remain the top female group of all time.

I have heard others say that their image might be over the top; affecting their ability to attract new fans to buy their music. Does anyone know if their music sales are stable? It would be interesting to know what the age demographic and if the buyer is new or a replacement buyer.

**jobeterob** · 06-22-2012, 12:54 PM

I posted some Soundscan figures for Diana Ross from the 90's ~ a couple times in the past.

As you can see from the Hip O releases, Ross still sells reasonably steadily; you could tell that from Blue as well and I Love You. The Diana Ross and the Supremes releases on Hip O would not be made if they didn't sell.

But CD sales overall have collapsed so it doesn't really matter how they sell in relation to other heritage artists - because they've all collapsed. I think some record companies are not paying artists for digital downloads because it wasn't in their initial contracts.

I suppose it is true that the Supremes have been ignored, but that is probably because the recognition has gone to Diana Ross. I'm not really sure what else there is to award her with ~ a yearly Grammy and an Oscar I guess. But sadly, if she gets all these awards and recognitions, they are not also going to be given to the Supremes.

But is that really any different with Smokey Robinson and the Miracles? Gladys Knight & the Pips?

**helga** · 06-22-2012, 04:34 PM

Music sales in general seem to be down. Digital and physical. People are downloading for free and streaming on Youtube. The internet has changed our way of life.

**antceleb12** · 06-22-2012, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

I posted some Soundscan figures for Diana Ross from the 90's ~ a couple times in the past.

As you can see from the Hip O releases, Ross still sells reasonably steadily; you could tell that from Blue as well and I Love You. The Diana Ross and the Supremes releases on Hip O would not be made if they didn't sell.

But CD sales overall have collapsed so it doesn't really matter how they sell in relation to other heritage artists - because they've all collapsed. I think some record companies are not paying artists for digital downloads because it wasn't in their initial contracts.

I suppose it is true that the Supremes have been ignored, but that is probably because the recognition has gone to Diana Ross. I'm not really sure what else there is to award her with ~ a yearly Grammy and an Oscar I guess. But sadly, if she gets all these awards and recognitions, they are not also going to be given to the Supremes.

But is that really any different with Smokey Robinson and the Miracles? Gladys Knight & the Pips?

Very good points. I hadn't thought about that.

As to your last question, I think its different because for the Supremes only because their musical success at the time was only rivaled by the Beatles, essentially. As someone pointed out, they outshined the Beach Boys in sales, yet their name appears to be more known to the general listener.

smark21 · 06-22-2012, 09:31 PM

I think BigAl nails it that one reason why the Supremes aren’t as valued as some of their contemporaries is because they went Vegas. And they didn’t go Vegas after the hits dried up, like many acts do, but they did so at the peak of their commercial success. While The Beatles and Brian Wilson continued to innovate and push the culture along, Motown pushed the Supremes backwards in a musical sense with their live bookings and shows.

Also one has to consider what fans grew up to do with their lives. The Beatles managed to have a few fans grow up to become influential music writers, critics and historians. Though there have been trashy books written about The Beatles, there’s also been a number of intelligent and well research articles and books about them. Who do the Supremes have as chrnoiclers? J. Randy Taraborelli, Mark Ribovsky, a high school hockey coach in Illinois with a grudge against Mary Wilson, and Tony Turner.

**jobeterob** · 06-22-2012, 10:57 PM

The Beatles managed to have a few fans grow up to become influential music writers, critics and historians. Though there have been trashy books written about The Beatles, there’s also been a number of intelligent and well research articles and books about them. Who do the Supremes have as chrnoiclers? J. Randy Taraborelli, Mark Ribovsky, a high school hockey coach in Illinois with a grudge against Mary Wilson, and Tony Turner.[/QUOTE]

LOL.

The trash books haven't really helped anyone take any of it seriously.

Does Tarraborelli belong in the same class as the others?

But in fairness, it isn't just the Supremes. It's all the rest of Motown too that at times is not taken seriously, or not as seriously as the white guitar bands. But I'm not sure there is a lot of cause for complaint by the Supremes or at least not Diana.

**bradsupremes** · 06-23-2012, 12:27 AM

It's an old dead white men club.

**skooldem1** · 06-24-2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by BigAl

How interesting that both Florence and Mary were given breakout leads here. When I saw them, Flo had the first couple of verses, then Diane took the final chorus, and finally Flo led them all in at the very end.

Quite interesting. This was suppose to be the song that Flo sang, then Diana stole it from her. But looks like not only was it still in the act, but Mary actually shared the lead. I never cared for the song too much. That last note ruins it.

**antceleb12** · 06-24-2012, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by skooldem1

Quite interesting. This was suppose to be the song that Flo sang, then Diana stole it from her. But looks like not only was it still in the act, but Mary actually shared the lead. I never cared for the song too much. That last note ruins it.

Yes. In all of the books, its reported that Flo's spotlight was taken away during their first Copa gig in the summer of '65. However, this is over a year later and she's still singing it. I wonder if the famous Copa story was a myth or not, and when the number was permanently taken away from Flo. Also, that last note is quite shrill [[it seems Diana is flat and overpowering Flo when she shouldn't be). I'm wondering if there is a higher quality audio/video recording of this concert somewhere.

smark21 · 06-24-2012, 12:39 PM

I think the arrangement that was written for The Supremes version of People is dreadful…just a dull dirge. Doesn’t really matter who was singing lead on it. And yes, that last note is true chalkboard scratcher of a note.

**George Solomon** · 06-24-2012, 04:15 PM

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

RossHolloway · 06-24-2012, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

George Solomon, I personally enjoy your insight and any detail you add to ANY discussion on this board.

**ejluther** · 06-24-2012, 05:03 PM

Thanks for the post, George...

**rod_rick** · 06-24-2012, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

Whew George I'm glad you said it LOL, but you are right on. Oh Holy Night and Florence full version of Silent Night are also good representation of Florence.

**antceleb12** · 06-24-2012, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

I hesitate to post on topics like this one and I hope I don't regret it.
I have to start by saying I loved Florence. When I was growing up she was my favorite Supreme and I think she had a fantastic voice. There has been so much written about this rendition of "People" and in every version we've uncovered at Motown we've never found any evidence that it was a showstopping blockbuster solo by Flo. I think the story has been exaggerated over the years. It was a group ballad and Flo was certainly featured on solo lines. From the beginning Diana sang the slow middle section. In my opinion the only Supreme truly featured on this number was Mary when she took over that middle part as in the Orient or an unreleased live recording from the Roostertail. She really made the most of it.
Of course everyone has recollections that are going to differ but Gil Askey once told me that it was Florence who didn't feel up to singing "People" at the Copa. I believe she was recovering from the flu. This would also explain whey she opted not to sing her solo verse in "Enjoy Yourself" at the same engagement. He said there were other times when she would ask that the song be dropped as well and that Florence was under the weather more often than Diana and Mary.
Again, Flo was a great talent and had some very fine moment including "Ain't That Good News". If you want to really hear Florence sing, listen to that track!

George, I was JUST about to ask about the Roostertail performance, as I just read it in my new copy of "At the Copa!" Very interesting that you say Flo OPTED to drop the number and was not forced out of it as many would like to suggest.

Also, George, if you don't mind me asking, you mentioned "in every version we've uncovered..." - how many versions of "People" [[with Florence) are there? I was always curious to see how many shows she sang it in. Finally, if you don't mind me asking, you briefly mentioned in the liner notes to "At the Copa" the famous unreleased recording of "The Supremes In the Orient." I think many of us have seen low-quality clips of that special [[like the one I have posted on Youtube above), but do you know how much footage of those concerts exist?

**George Solomon** · 06-25-2012, 12:01 AM

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.

**antceleb12** · 06-25-2012, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by George Solomon

There is the "People" studio version used on There's A Place For Us and the 1964 live version used on the Where Did Our Love Go Expanded. There are a few other early live performances but we used the best on the WDOLG expanded. And they sang it at the Motortown Revue in Paris but audio problems made it unreleasable [[only Mary's mic was on). They obviously sang this song quite a bit in the early years. After the Roostertail show in late 66 there are no more recorded performances of the song.
The Supremes In The Orient is something that Motown Productions have [[or had). Even their best copy isn't pristine. I don't think it was recorded very well. Obviously there is or was a lot more footage from the unedited special but I have no idea where that would be.

Thanks a lot! I greatly appreciate it!