Question: Randy Tarraborelli's Sales Figures

**jobeterob** · 09-08-2010, 12:59 AM

I wonder if any of you can speculate or have the answer to this question.

In Call Her Miss Ross, Randy quoted all kinds of sales figures; things like You Can't Hurry Love, Where Did Our Love Go, Ain't No Mountain High Enough selling 2 million copies; but he also said that songs like Baby Love, Come See About Me, Nothing But Heartaches, The Composer, Love Child, etc., did not sell the millions of records some of them were purported to have sold.

Some of his figures, looking back on them, seem questionable - particularly songs like Baby Love which really was one of the songs that opened R & B up to White America. Without Baby Love, would there have been Respect? And Love Child.

In Randy's second book, the update, the more comprehensive one, Randy dropped much of the sensational gossip...........and he dropped all the sales figures.

Does anyone know why? Did he find they were incorrect or unreliable?

Mary Wilson was quoted as saying that any song from Diana and the Supremes that made it into the Top 30 sold millions or a million - I believe she said that in her book, Dreamgirl. She should have known better than Randy because although their royalties were low, she did get paid her share based on sales of those singles and albums.

Does anyone have facts? Can anyone speculate?

**carlo** · 09-08-2010, 01:33 AM

ANTHOLOGY
GOLD

SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER
GOLD

SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER
PLATINUM

BABY LOVE
GOLD

STOP, IN THE NAME OF LOVE
GOLD

ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
I'M GONNA MAKE YOU LOVE ME
GOLD

ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
I'M GONNA MAKE YOU LOVE ME
PLATINUM

ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
TCB
GOLD

ROSS, DIANA AND THE SUPREMES WITH THE TEMPTATIONS
DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS
GOLD

According to the RIAA database, these are the only Supremes records that were ever certified as gold or platinum. Berry never opened his books to the RIAA, so these certifications were awarded during the 80's and 90's. I find it hard to believe that no other records went gold or platinum.

**nomis** · 09-08-2010, 01:36 AM

When Randy was writing Call Her Miss Ross someone who remains anonymous at Motown,gave him a print out of the sales figures up to that date [[Im guessing Mid '88)...however they were not accurate as they for starters,a)were only domestic and b)the information has been challenged in Posners book with the affidvants regarding the cut - out scam..there wasnt deeper enough research if the cut out scheme applied to "7 singles,It might well of,If it did then the print out Randy recieved in "88 is totally wrong..your asking "murky" questions Jobeterob...Berry allowed no outside accounting til [[if memory serves me right) about "76 - Im at work at my bookshop at the moment I need to check sources at home..But at least one Motowner has gone on record saying they made copies and sold it through car boots in NY in the mid 60s so there was SOME skimming on singles...Posners book isnt very good apart from the information on cut outs..one thing IS for sure this was all going on unbeknowest to Berry..his employees were ripping his company off...but cut outs and scamming only really works on HIT records..We will never know the true figures..Berry never wanted the sales figures public..
Back to Randy -whats not known about the print out he was given was how far back it went..you can agree with something like "Sleepin" selling so low as it did..but did the figures on the print out include the inital sales of an early hit like "baby Love" or was it tallied at a later date in the singles distribution...say a month or so after it charted..thats the real question..this is all murky waters...Diana and Mary have disputed the figures..Diana not so The supremes but she questioned how much "Its My Turn" sold which i think on memory without checking was something like 143.000 copies or something...either Berry allowed stock to be sold "Off the books" or staff did it to him without his knowledge..the testimonials in Posners book give an indication it happened to LPs..as for singles Im not sure...

**sup_fan** · 09-08-2010, 08:36 AM

i remember this dialog coming up a year or so ago. Randy [[not sure if he's on the boards any more or not) made a comment that was interesting. Chart peak position does not necessarily reflect total sales figures. rather it's chart duration. He gave an example of Love Is Here And Now You're Gone vs Jimmy Mack. Love fly up the charts quickly, peaked at #1 and then quickly slide back down. whereas Jimmy did a long and slow burn. Sure hitting #1 is exciting but look at Stoned Love. didn't reach 1 on the pop charts but did make it to 7 and was on the charts forever. it's one of the biggest selling Sup singles OF ALL TIME. I think the list of the top ones includes Where Did Our Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love, Love Child, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, Someday We'll Be Together and Stoned Love.

While Diana and Mary might claim to have sold more, they really might NOT know the if they did or didn't. Part of their complaints with Berry included the fact that they weren't given clear and [[in their minds) accurate accounting of their sales figures. I thought Mary mentioned something in one of her books about how you could do an audit but only 1x a year and it would only cover a 6 month period. so essentially useless. Motown was notorious for inflating it's figures for PR purposes. Often times for the Sups, they didn't have to do much. but for others they generally did. If people think you're hugely successful, they have more confidence in you, your business and your products.

**randy_russi** · 09-08-2010, 08:49 AM

The sales figures that Motown had were probably not accurate because of paying royalties for sales, perhaps.
Mary Wells told me that they told her "My Guy" was NOT a million seller, only selling about a half million.
Go figure! She went on to say that they claimed to have bought the chart positions for her.

**pj1** · 09-08-2010, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by randy_russi

Mary Wells told me that they told her "My Guy" was NOT a million seller, only selling about a half million.
Go figure! She went on to say that they claimed to have bought the chart positions for her.

Do you know if this was before or after Motown had inklings that she was preparing to leave the company? That would make a big difference.

**luke** · 09-08-2010, 09:30 AM

Could "Motown" get this all straightened out now? Getting a thorough RIAA audit. Cant an artist request it to get a thorough royalty accounting?

**jobeterob** · 09-08-2010, 12:50 PM

No, not now. The information is long gone and probably was never provided to Universal when they bought Motown. The consensus is that the information is no longer available at all. If a record company requests an audit for RIAA purposes, they need to provide the information. One of the huge problems with RIAA audits is that they were done on records or CDS "shipped" - there have been huge numbers of returned CDs and records issued by artists like Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson in order to get certified gold and platinum when the actual sales were far lower.

The information that Sup Fan mentions was provided by Rick Bueche. But again, it was basically Randy's information and I believe it is generally now regarded as inaccurate.

I believe information like Randy Russi's is as accurate as we will get these days.

I am not sure that Berry Gordy or Diana Ross truly know what the Supremes records sold or Diana's.

There was talk from some corner once that there were only 3 artists on Motown Records that ever made money and THAT was the real reason that Berry "favoured" Diana and the Supremes.

**Glenpwood** · 09-08-2010, 02:23 PM

Motown wouldn't have been required to keep sales info for auditing past 7-10 for tax purposes. I recently read Tommy James' autobiography and when he had trouble getting an accurate accounting of the records he sold for Roulette he found his way around the label and it's union ties by going to the label printers to get a count of how many labels were ordered to put onto the vinyl. He claims it worked out to some insane amount like 60 million dollars he was owed. Of course he never got it but imagine if the girls had gone that route in their attempts to get an accurate accounting....

**stingbeelee** · 09-08-2010, 03:47 PM

Trying to get to the bottom of Supremes sales is almost impossible. It is generally accepted as a fact that the Supremes are the biggest female group of all time. It is generally accepted that they are the biggest vocal group of all time. Every list I looked at regarding the top 100 [[or 500 or 1000) artists of all time, they are in the top twenty. And yet, when you look at the various websites for sales, they put the Supremes as selling 15 - 25 million records worldwide. HOW IN THE WORLD can you be the second biggest act of the 60's, only behind the Beatles, and you only sell 15 -25 million? It's almost an impossibility.
If you look at the top twenty artists of all time, sales begin at estamates of 200 million worldwide up to the 600 million to 1 billion records sold for Elvis/The Beatles. Would'nt that seem to point out that the Supremes sold at least 200 million records worldwide?
The Supremes had 12 number one hits, but apparently, if you look at sale figures that have been reported on websites and this forum in the past, the Supremes number one hits sold far far less that anyone else's number one hits; in fact they should only be perhaps number 100 - 120 for the top 100 artists of all time.
For reference, I looked at two websites that seem to indicate "somewhere in the ballpark" figures for the Supremes that seem to be more accurate than others:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079
http://www.hitsville.org/2009/07/12/...loyd-and-more/

These two websites might be the closest we may get to know the true figures.

**daviddh** · 09-08-2010, 05:19 PM

when i was last on the RIAA website i noticed that the Temptations and J5 record info....should i say ,Gold certifications were listed but with the Supremes , only a few listed above.
i did read that only an artist could ask for an audit and they had to pay for it.?
i have seen a few gold record awards for the supremes, one was SUPREMES GREATEST HITS 67 and it stated on the front the lps sold 2 million copies. also WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO lp sold about 1 million. i think the other gold lps were AT THE COPA,MERRY CHRISTMAS,A GO GO ,MORE HITS, SING HDH,GREATEST HITS 3. i am not sure about the others but some of the ohter albums had long chart runs such as I HEAR A SYMPHONY.
i am not sure i believe motown was able to buy a position for a song ???maybe ,but i would think it would be hard to buy everyone. on the billboard charts ,the sales reflected sales,jukebox plays,radio spins and requests etc ,while cashbox was based upon sales only and usually the chart peaks were fairly close. only one song really was odd to me and that was FOREVER CAME TODAY, which made #13 on cashbox while only #30 on Billboard
it is also possible that motown issued gold records for total sales rather than just domestic sales. at least that is how i was told it was done or maybe the rules have changed.
but to me,if motown was buying positons for the supremes, why not continue to do so when songs such as NO MATTER WHAT SIGN YOU ARE was released. another reason why i not convinced of this happening. but that is not saying it didnt.
i just believe they were millions sellers because they were great songs!

**sup_fan** · 09-08-2010, 05:51 PM

today everyone kid buys all the songs/downloads. even in the 90s kids had the means to buy tons and tons of cd and cassette singles [[or those of you old enough to remember them being called cassingles lol!)

back in the 60s, there just wasn't the disposable income like there is today. kids just didn't have the funds to buy every single 45. so record sales from the 60s need to be kept in perspective. I read that TLC claims to be the biggest selling female act. Destiny Child says the same thing. Sure they might have sold a zillion records but they each only had 3 or 4 number ones and then a handful of other top 10 and top 40 hits. the Supremes had 12 #1 and 35 or so additional top 40 hits.

it's like inflation, needs to be references to the time period. not the absolutes

**jobeterob** · 09-08-2010, 06:19 PM

These are from stingbeelee's post above:

by motown on March 20th, 2009

They were huge sellers all over the world. I do know some of the individual albums sales figures for U.S. sales. The figures were rounded to the nearest thousand.

Where Did Our Love Go- 3,225,000
A Bit of Liverpool- 839,000
Supremes At The Copa- 1,316,000
More Hits By....- 1,642,000
I Hear A Symphony- 1,894,000
Supremes A' Go-Go- 3,469,000
Supremes Sing H-D-H- 1,518,000
Greatest Hits 5,975,000
Reflections 724,000
Funny Girl 217,000
Love Child 683,000
TCB 1,426,000
Join The Temps 1,397,000
We Remember Sam Cooke 306,000
Cream Of The Crop 566,000
Let The Sunshine In 602,000
Together 492,000
Greatest Vol 3 1,216,000
Rogers & Hart 486,000
Country, Western & Pop 178,000
Live At Talk Of Town 382,000
Meet The Supremes 146,000
Anthology 982,000
25th Anniversary 429,000

These aren't all albums ever released, only ones I was told U.S. sales figures for

Selected U.S. Singles Sales

Where Did Our Love Go 2,720,000
Baby Love 3,496,000
Come See About Me 1,870,000
Stop! In The Name 2,154,000
Back In My Arms 1,029,000
Nothing But Heartaches 588,000
I Hear A Symphony 1,604,000
My World Is Empty 1,371,000
Love Is Like An Itch 632,000
You Can't Hurry Love 2,424,000
You Keep Me Hangin' 1,758,000
Love Is Here And Now 949,000
The Happening 897,000
Refelections 1,277,000
In And Out Of Love 762,000
Forever Came Today 298,000
Some Things You Never 317,000
Love Child 2,899,000
I'm Gonna Make You lo 1,557,000
I'm Livin In Shame 513,000
The Composer 204,000
I'll Try Something New 273,000
Someday We'll Be... 3,077,000

Read more: Does anyone know how many total records the Supremes sold world-wide? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079#ixzz0yyllLnzA

RossHolloway · 09-08-2010, 06:54 PM

question: how many albums needed to be sold to cover the recording costs? ie. at what sales point did an album make a profit? what about a single?

**jobeterob** · 09-08-2010, 07:57 PM

It depends how long you spent in the studio. David Morse said the Supremes, especially Diana, could perfect a take in the shortest period of time; often she would oversing the song after the first take or two. Now, Norman Whitfield and Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, in the 70's, likely spent months and years in the studio and if they didn't own it ~ it might have taken many many thousands or hundreds of thousands of album sales to recoup those kinds of costs. Advertising costs could be a fortune too.

**nomis** · 09-08-2010, 08:04 PM

yes that why Berry said 'If the other girls dont show up..just record Diane..its easier and cheaper..."

**nomis** · 09-08-2010, 08:59 PM

..also History is constantly being rewritten that the Supremes were not "hot" by '68 when the Greatest Hits was in fact trucking out of stores..these figures highlight just how big that first compilation was..singles might have not been doing that well but the girls still had a smash LP on the charts..

**daviddh** · 09-08-2010, 09:20 PM

at one point ,sales est were 55,ooo,ooo and the girls logged in anothe r5 million in 70 with jean on leads

**luke** · 09-08-2010, 09:37 PM

Years ago Randy said Mary [[and I assume Diana) collects about 80,000 a year in royalties.

**daviddh** · 09-08-2010, 09:40 PM

wonder what diana biggest singles[solo] were , i suppose AINT NO MOUTAIN was her biggest seller? any info on th e70s supremes sales?

**nomis** · 09-08-2010, 09:42 PM

I know Upside Down,and Endless love were million sellers at the time..if remember correctly there were two other singles mentioned in Call Her Miss Ross she had four solo million sellers and one duet....

**stingbeelee** · 09-08-2010, 09:49 PM

Thanks, Jobeterob, for posting the list. I wonder who agree with the listing of the sales figures of the individual singles and albums and the estimated 190 million records sold worldwide [[up to the present?)

**nomis** · 09-08-2010, 09:57 PM

Ive got the figures from '91- since soundscan was introduced ..of all of Dianas albums..I will put the figures up if anyones interested...

**jillfoster** · 09-08-2010, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by nomis

Ive got the figures from '91- since soundscan was introduced ..of all of Dianas albums..I will put the figures up if anyones interested...

sure, i'm interested in any soundscan numbers you may have. I wonder how much that 70's anthology sold... when I went to pick mine up on day of release, there were 6 others on hold for other people... and this is just one store in Overland park, Kansas.

**nomis** · 09-08-2010, 11:17 PM

will put them up when I get home from work Jill..

**nomis** · 09-09-2010, 01:09 AM

phew had to look through thousands of pages of documents to find the soundscan data,This was orginaly posted by Jobeterob on 06 July 2006 - Jobeterob I hope you dont mind me re posting your data...this is the retail sales for 96/97/98 ONLY but gives you an idea of what the numbers were in the late 90s..

14 Greatest Hits.....16,916
Aint No Moutain.......5,138
All The Great love Songs....49
All The Great Hits...268,132
All The Great Love Songs....5,914
Anthology....73,708
Anthology best of...51
Baby Its Me...346
Best years Of My Life...9,103
Bottom Line...2
Boss....5,650
Diana extended...38
Diana Duets...3,559
Diana Ross..6,148
Diana...7,573
Diana/The Boss....839
Diana ross Live....78,918
Diana extended/The remixes.....68,931
eaten Alive...79
Eaten alive...1,449
Endless Love...1,726
Evening With...11,663
Force Behind The Power..98,695

The rest to follow...

**nomis** · 09-09-2010, 01:23 AM

and...

Gone....4,805
Greatest hits Live....136
Greatest hits RCA Years...11,247
Greatest hits....83,270
Hits of Vol 1....275
Hits of....511
I Will Survive...1,536
If Your Not Gonna..40
Live At Ceasers Palace...7,760
Love Hangover 89....62
One Woman....196,172
Red Hot Rnb....685
Ross....242
Silk Electric...1,966
Surrender..312
Surrender/aint No moutain....469
swept away...8,728
Take Me Higher single...37,855
Take Me Higher...101,684
This House..67
Touch Me In The Morning..4,871
Touch Me In The Morning/Baby its Me..606
Visions Of Diana ross..69
Visions of Diana Ross...3,755
Voice Of Love...33
Voice Of the Heart...6,725
Waiting In the Wings...903
Why Do Fools..5
When You tell Me...16,906
Why do Fools Fall...7,477
Workin Overtime...3,328
Your Gonna Love It...4,137

total albums for the years..96/97/98.to Oct...1,155,368
total singles for the same period..82,141
total videos..3842

BIG THANKS TO JOBETEROB FOR THE ORIGINAL POST - TOOK HIM AN HOUR TO TYPE ! -wasnt in vain buddy I kept a copy
Nomis

**jobeterob** · 09-09-2010, 01:56 AM

Good job Nomis.

Diana and Mary are now getting perhaps $8000 a year in royalties from sales of Supremes CDS; sales have died. The figures from 25 years ago bear no relation to what is available now. This is why artists today need to tour if they want to make any money.

Diana renegotiated her royalty rate while most other Motown artists, Mary included, couldn't because they were not current artists selling anything.

The only facts I know are that country music and pop music used to sell a lot more than Soul Music. Where Did Our Love Go was the best selling album of 1964 [[other than a Soundtrack, The Sound of Music).........and that includes Beatle albums and it comes from Universal.

It would be great if Randy would comment on here; he was or is a member. But he generally keeps a low profile.

**Glenpwood** · 09-09-2010, 11:59 AM

Not to split hairs but how can records that were easily obtainable on store shelves in 96, 97, 98 be outsold by other ones long out of print by that point? Apparantly I bought one of of the 38 copies of "Diana Extended" I saw in the stores but somehow "Swept Away" which had been cut out by BMG several years before sold 8,728? I never saw it in cut out bins unlike some other Ross product listed in those years even if they were scanning the original bar code [[which in the case of deleted items is usually covered by the distributor with a generic one so they don't have to pay an artist a royalty on the product since its considered a pressing overrun)

**jillfoster** · 09-09-2010, 03:01 PM

thanks, Nomis... very interesting figures indeed.

**skooldem1** · 09-09-2010, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Glenpwood

Not to split hairs but how can records that were easily obtainable on store shelves in 96, 97, 98 be outsold by other ones long out of print by that point? Apparantly I bought one of of the 38 copies of "Diana Extended"

Not sure why, but this is listed twice. Were there two different versions? I have a vinyl version of this as well as the CD. Is that considered in a seperate category?

Diana extended...38
Diana extended/The remixes.....68,931

**nomis** · 09-09-2010, 06:25 PM

Skooldem - not sure what the 38 is...could be vinyl but I think 68 thousand of a cd that wasnt really promoted had no current single on the charts and was a remix project is a healthy number..remix albums tend to not do so well...

**daviddh** · 09-09-2010, 08:39 PM

the only supremes lps not listed ,it seems is TALK OF THE TOWN and MERRY CHRISTMAS but i saw a platinum lp award for the xmzs lp and it staed it sold 3 million +

**daviddh** · 09-09-2010, 08:54 PM

just found the TALK OF THE TOWN LP, sorry ,missed it.thanks for the info

**jobeterob** · 09-10-2010, 02:38 AM

Those Soundscan figures were only for a period of time; but they are the real figures; Soundscan is also only a sample and that is the sample from 12 years ago; who knows who was and wasn't reporting then; it doesn't cover everything although I think they try to be very inclusive now. Also, certain CDs/Vinyl/Singles might have been available only for a while.

topdiva1 · 09-12-2010, 04:50 PM

While millions of records where sold on The Supremes, and Diana Ross and The Supremes - not one of the ladies seems to know how much money they should have gotten in reality - I believe sales figures and books at Motown where never near correct - and most likely they had SEVERAL sets of books.

There is however some great information here. I would not bet on any of it being remotely correct.

**luke** · 09-13-2010, 09:17 AM

Did Mary get an accounting in 1977 when she sued? I cant believe she and Diana dont ask for a full accounting NOW.

**daviddh** · 09-15-2010, 02:03 PM

thought it was funny that according to the info above A GO GO sold more copies than WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO ,which had 3 #1 singles, but i suppose it's possible as it seems to be a fan favorite, although i prefer WDOLG over GO GO.
anyone got the sales figures for dianas solo albums?

topdiva1 · 09-15-2010, 07:52 PM

No one- even the principle players will ever REALLY know what was sold, and how much was made.

**jobeterob** · 09-15-2010, 10:30 PM

If you carefully ready the liner notes for the extended Where Did Our Love Go LP, Harry Weinger writes:

"But by the end of the year, The Supremes score three No. 1 hits in a row and a No. 1 LP that is the top selling pop music album of 1964. They are not only Motown's biggest act, they are the biggest female group in the world."

Who knows exactly what those words mean.

As others have written on here, no one really knows what got sold.

Diana has been given statements since sometime in her solo career but their accuracy, especially in the early years might be questioned.

And the sales are basically finished. They struggle to sell 5000 copies of Meet the Supremes and 10,000 copies of Where Did Our Love Go.

**nomis** · 09-15-2010, 10:42 PM

"You know I never really counted which one sold the most" Diana on single sales in '99 to Chris Evans

**rubcale** · 10-04-2010, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Selected U.S. Singles Sales

Where Did Our Love Go 2,720,000
Baby Love 3,496,000
Come See About Me 1,870,000
Stop! In The Name 2,154,000
Back In My Arms 1,029,000
Nothing But Heartaches 588,000
I Hear A Symphony 1,604,000
My World Is Empty 1,371,000
Love Is Like An Itch 632,000
You Can't Hurry Love 2,424,000
You Keep Me Hangin' 1,758,000
Love Is Here And Now 949,000
The Happening 897,000
Refelections 1,277,000
In And Out Of Love 762,000
Forever Came Today 298,000
Some Things You Never 317,000
Love Child 2,899,000
I'm Gonna Make You lo 1,557,000
I'm Livin In Shame 513,000
The Composer 204,000
I'll Try Something New 273,000
Someday We'll Be... 3,077,000

Read more: Does anyone know how many total records the Supremes sold world-wide? | Answerbag http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/77079#ixzz0yyllLnzA

I think those are definitely worldwide figures not just US.

The first Tarraborelli biography gave quite a few sales figures for the US which he obtained from an un-named source at Motown and I believe are pretty accurate. These were sales during the initial release of the records.

These are figures he quoted:

Where Did Our Love Go 1,072,290
Nothing But Heartaches 368,267
My World Is Empty Without You close to 500,000
Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart 368,000
You Can't Hurry Love 1,104,012
Some Things You Never Get Used To 202,693
The Composer close to 200,000
No Matter What Sign You Are under 300,000

Reach Out And Touch barely 500,000
Ain't No Mountain High Enough 1,243,738
Remember Me 540,940
Reach Out [[I'll Be There) 254,307
Touch Me In The Morning 1,504,909
Last Time I Saw Him 643,740
Sleepin' 46,162
Do You Know Where You're Going To? 882,272
The Boss close to 250,000
It's My Turn 434,794

Motown's sales figures were though notoriously incomplete.

He stated that only four Supreme's singles were instant million sellers - Where Did Our Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love, Love Child and Someday We'll Be Together [[the biggest seller of all) plus the collaboration with the Temptations, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me.

Baby Love, Come See About Me, Stop! In The Name Of Love and You Keep me Hangin' On passed the million sales mark in the US over the years. The interesting one here is Baby Love. It was the big international hit of their early career but it was no secret in the US that WDOLG was the bigger domestic seller.

Diana solo also had four instant million sellers: Ain't No Mountain High Enough, Touch Me In The Morning, Love Hangover and Upside Down plus the duet with Lionel Richie, Endless Love her biggest seller of all at well over 2million and the biggest selling record of 1981 in the US.

**jobeterob** · 10-04-2010, 01:34 PM

Interesting but both lists look suspect, unreliable and/or made up from "best sources" to me.

**midnightman** · 10-05-2010, 04:32 AM

I don't know if Motown/The Supremes' sales situation is THAT unique, not lots of folks were selling copies like that and it's been stated that those that do get "the biggest sales" are often inflated because labels would ask for it. Otherwise labels would skip audits in fear of taxes.

**randy_russi** · 10-05-2010, 11:43 AM

In response to my post on Mary Wells' statement to me about Motown and her record sales, apparently she was having
disputes with them all along. According to her, they would stall her releases while she had an attorney checking
sales figures, etc. This is why she only had ten releases between '61 and '64 while a group like the Supremes, who
hadn't hit yet, had nine releases during the same time period.
This is one of the major reasons she left the company. The subject of "My Guy" may or may not have come up
when they knew she was leaving, although I'd bet it was when they knew she was leaving, but it really makes
no difference because Motown never awarded her a gold record for any of her other major hits--You Beat Me
To The Punch, Two Lovers.
Hopefully this will all be in greater detail in Peter Benjaminson's bio of Mary Wells coming soon.

**midnightman** · 10-05-2010, 05:20 PM

^ Man I hope that book comes out [[and that TV One does an "Unsung" on her). It seems Mary had some stories to tell and we never got to hear them [[same with the Marvelettes).

topdiva1 · 10-05-2010, 08:47 PM

I believe that there could of been a real dark side and under belly that operated at Motown - and most of you fans do not want to hear it.

If Randy has the balls to write about some of that, instead of reprinting sales figures , he found doing some research - maybe he can be the next kitty kelly -

**midnightman** · 10-05-2010, 10:50 PM

There's a dark side to every thing. The problem is when people wanna just discuss that is when it becomes a problem.

Ain't that we "don't wanna know about it", but we know about it a little too much to the point where people don't even give a damn anymore. You think people are gonna be that fascinated by behind the scenes stories unless they themselves were Motown fanatics.

topdiva1 · 10-05-2010, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by midnightman

There's a dark side to every thing. The problem is when people wanna just discuss that is when it becomes a problem.

Ain't that we "don't wanna know about it", but we know about it a little too much to the point where people don't even give a damn anymore. You think people are gonna be that fascinated by behind the scenes stories unless they themselves were Motown fanatics.

Great point - thanks so much!

**florence** · 06-21-2011, 10:43 AM

One of the world's great mysteries - the Supremes and Diana's sales figures.

I always believed that the figures J Randy Tarraborelli gave in his 1989 Call Her Miss Ross were pretty plausible with what was generally known and they had apparently been given to him by someone at Motown - certainly they were printed in good faith. He never made any attempt to give RCA ones - he didn't have them.

I was looking forward to the 2007 updated biography and eagerly looking forward to any further info. on sales only to find almost all details on sales had been removed which begs the question why? I never heard that there had been any legal problems but what we do know is that he received some 10,000 pages of documents in 1990 with all Motown sales figures up to then and that the figures contained in these certainly in relation to singles were right as the figures which were quoted in Court with regard to the Jacksons in a case agreed.

There has been some suggestion that the initial figures JRT was supplied were wrong so it could be why they were removed from the latest biography but then why couldn't the up-to-date ones be given? Maybe he though it wouldn't look good but who knows.

But it does then leave me wondering about his first claims.

Then there is the list posted above by jobeterobe apparently originating from stingbeelee which while strangely agreeing with JRT for some of the lower selling singles differs massively regarding the bigger ones.

There is nothing to say where these figures eminated from [[nor up to what date these sales were), which immediately makes it hard to accept and some of them do look way, way too high and possibly are maybe worldwide figures rather than US alone but then again I can't say they are wrong either - what do I know.

What is intriguing is the out-of-the-blue certifications for several singles [[and albums) by the RIAA in the 1997.

It's always been accepted that Someday We'll Be Together was the biggest seller of the group's singles going over 2m in the US alone so Platinum certification is only right.

Strangely the other Platinum certification is for the collaboration with the Temptations I'm Gonna Make You Love Me which is only given sales of 1.557m. Are we to believe that this figures is after returns and while over 2m were shipped some 500k were returned? That sounds implausible.

Only 2 other singles were certified both for Gold - Baby Love and Stop! In The Name Of Love. There can be no doubt that several other singles at least sold 1m plus [[ many of them if the above list is right) so it begs the question why SITNOL and not, in particular You Can't Hurry Love nor Love Child which unless we're all wrong were bigger sellers.

Also if they were going to the bother of submitting for a Gold Disc why would they not also claim Platinum when the figures show sales of 2m+? Maybe the records sold some on Download so SITNOL reached the figure after 1997, depending on when the original list was up to but it would be nonsensical to think Baby Love had sold a million and a half since then so the fact that it was only certified Gold tends to make me think that the figure of near 3.5m quoted cannot be right.

Anyone know anything behind why these Certifications suddenly appeared?

We know Motown's documentation was a mess and it was a problem getting sales figures for all artists but the same seems to apply for Diana with RCA. I have never come across any sales info with regard to her singles with them. I'm not from the US so maybe there could have been figures reported but I did have a subscription to Billboard and never read anything in it.

We have the awards for albums so you would have to assume that had any of Diana's singles there reached 1m a Gold award would have been claimed.

It is notoriously difficult to equate sales with chart position reached in the US particularly as there are different genre markets . Also position reached in Cash Box or Record World is more reliable than Billboard as the were sales only based.

Speculation only but you would think Why Do Fools Fall In Love #6 Record World must have gone well over 500k surely 600k minimum and probably many more. It sold 300k+ in the UK plus it was #1 in both Holland and Belgium and a hit in other countries so must be globally over 1m.

Mirror Mirror was #8 Record World and you would think passed the 500k mark although it didn't do as well internationally, only #36 in UK.

Muscles might also have passed 500k in US - #7 in Cash Box. Although only #15 in UK it sold around 125k and if US sales were nearer 1m than 500k then sales in other territories could put it over 1m.

Missing You is an interesting one. It yo-yoed about the 40s and 50s before Diana's performance of it on a tribute to Marvin Gaye sent it up to the top 10. Even if sales wouldn't be that great in the mid-chart an accumulation of a large number of these could mount up to a significant total and it was on the charts for like 6 months. On the other hand it just made it to the bottom of the Cash Box top 20 so it's difficult to know. It didn't do that well outside the US either. Surprisingly only #76 in the UK.

It's hard to see any other of Diana's single releases on RCA doing over 500k in the US alone.

Swept Away #22 on Cash Box maybe getting towards it?

On a worldwide basis I was initially seduced by reports of If We Hold On Together being on the Japanese charts for a couple of years and selling millions there alone! But it transpires that there is a separate chart there for "foreign" releases and that is what the chart tenancy referred to. Being in the lower reaches of that for a year doesn't equate to large sales. It would appear that while it was #1 on the International Chart it reached #3 overall and sold just over 465k. I have seen this quoted on a couple of sites and there is a citation on Wikipedia. The record also sold 140k in the UK so it puts it over 600k.

One other big seller from the RCA years was the brilliant Chain Reaction [[what on earth were you thinking of US?!!!). Sales to date of 725k in the UK. It shifted another few thousand this year when the tune [[not Diana's original though) was featured on an advertisement for a Web comparison site. Two short spells on the US Hot 100 reaching the 60s second time around would give it maybe 60k but say 40k at least. It was #1 in the Republic Of Ireland in the same period as the UK 25-30k. 8 weeks on the German chart which although only peaking at #11 would be well over 60k plus a smaller hit in other European countries. #3 in New Zealand and according to the Bee Gees website it was a #1 hit in Venezuela!!

But it was a major hit in Australia - #1 in 1986 and among the very biggest sellers of the year. It may even have been the biggest but certainly on the year end chart [[calculated similar to Billboard on chart performance) it emerged as #1. Sales surely of 150k+. Surely it will have sold amounts in various other countries which if not already past the 1m in those quoted would take it there.

It could very well be that accumulative sales of these singles throughout the world could amount to much more than I think - it's all speculation.

Has anyone ever seen anything concrete about Diana's singles sales in the 80s and 90s?

Along with countless others I would love to know the sales [[singles particularly) of both group and solo for Diana.

I can't believe that all records would have been expunged and that somebody somewhere must know them or would have excess to them but they're keeping it a closely guarded secret!

I suppose I'll just have to accept that if they do somehow ever come to light it will be The Impossible Dream.