Motown Legal, You Missed one!...Dusty

[Jimi LaLumia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMwymPU7otM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z47xJhnEOVI

[ejluther]

So you think they're basically the same song? There are similarities but I don't think I would have noticed them if you hadn't pointed it out...

[copley]

I have known both these songs for nearly 50 yrs. I don't hear any similarity whatsoever.

[144man]

I hear the odd Motown riff in the backing track [[I Can't Help Myself; Ain't Too Proud to Beg), but nothing in the basic melody reminds me of "Come See About Me".

[mysterysinger]

Yes there does seem to be a similarity to me.

Did anything happen over Barry White's clear copy of The Supremes "Eveything's Good About You" on "It May Be Winter Outside"?

[jillfoster]

nah, it's about as close as "You Keep Me Hangin On" to Jay and the Techniques "Keep the Ball Rollin". Or between "Stop" and the Toys "Lover's Concerto".

[paladin]

Jim I hit the first link you posted and immediately thought it similar to "Come See About Me".... little did I know what the second link was.......

[Jimi LaLumia]

it's reassuring that some people around here actually have 'ears"..
there are entire segmentss that are derived 'lifts' from "Come see About Me"..
but then, I don't hear "Ask Any Girl" in "1,2,3" by Len Barry, there's a remote resemblance at best..
so there ya go..

[copley]

Ears hear what they want & expect to hear!

[roger]

Jim I hit the first link you posted and immediately thought it similar to "Come See About Me".... little did I know what the second link was.......

That is exactly what happened when I clicked on the links as well Paladin.

Roger

[paladin]

That is exactly what happened when I clicked on the links as well Paladin.

Roger

I had never heard the second record before... but its glaringly obvious...

[144man]

I hear the odd Motown riff in the backing track [[I Can't Help Myself; Ain't Too Proud to Beg), but nothing in the basic melody reminds me of "Come See About Me".

Having listened again, the first two bars do indeed sound like the riff from "Come See About Me", but nothing after that does. The song would have been suitable for the Impressions.

[Jimi LaLumia]

but those bars are used throughout in a similar mode, re structured obviously..

[jillfoster]

Jimi... I heaqr what your'e talking about, it't just not enough to hang your hat on, from a legal standpoint.

[Zantellor]

suitable for the impressions of couse it is. it's a blatant rip off of it's alright

[144man]

it's reassuring that some people around here actually have 'ears"..
there are entire segmentss that are derived 'lifts' from "Come see About Me"..
but then, I don't hear "Ask Any Girl" in "1,2,3" by Len Barry, there's a remote resemblance at best..
so there ya go..

I thought that "1-2-3" sounded like "Ask Any Girl" the very first time I heard it; also "It May Be Winter Outside" to "Everything Is Good About You"; and "I Can't Help Myself" to "Where Did Our Love Go".

The resemblance of "Go Ahead On" to "Come See About Me" is in nowhere near the same league. I suggest that if both tracks were performed acapello there would be no similarity noticeable.

[144man]

suitable for the impressions of couse it is. it's a blatant rip off of it's alright

I was in fact thinking of You Must Believe Me, but you're right, of course.

[ejluther]

Here's more examples of two songs with very similiar sections:

The Toys' LOVER'S CONCERTO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGDZc9bdUZM
AND
The Supremes' STOP! IN THE NAME OF LOVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJzcGO0qUfw
[[FYI: here's The Supremes version of LOVER'S CONCERTO, too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA2hY7nhVWE

Dion & The Belmonts' A TEENAGER IN LOVE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-Xvgv92GBc
AND
The Supremes' THE BOY THAT GOT AWAY:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfcP3rZqtcU

[jillfoster]

I thought that "1-2-3" sounded like "Ask Any Girl" the very first time I heard it; also "It May Be Winter Outside" to "Everything Is Good About You"; and "I Can't Help Myself" to "Where Did Our Love Go".

The resemblance of "Go Ahead On" to "Come See About Me" is in nowhere near the same league. I suggest that if both tracks were performed acapello there would be no similarity noticeable.

I totally agree, the simlarities are totally from the production end, and not the song itself, that's why it woldn't encounte any legal hurdles.

[thisoldheart]

dusty springfield showed her love of motown in many ways. she personally brought and introduced most of the motown heavyweights to the brits for her "special ready, steady, go" special. her enthusiasm for the music is evident throughout the show. her duet with martha reeves is a highlight. talent borrows. genious, like dusty, steal ... as oscar wilde so famously said!

[thisoldheart]

I totally agree, the simlarities are totally from the production end, and not the song itself, that's why it woldn't encounte any legal hurdles.

just wondering then how ashford & simpson are listed amy winehouse's "tears dry on their own" when the melody line is pure amy and the production totally "ain't no mountain high enough"? who do those rules work, exactly? perhaps, it's who has the best lawyer!?

[smark21]

just wondering then how ashford & simpson are listed amy winehouse's "tears dry on their own" when the melody line is pure amy and the production totally "ain't no mountain high enough"? who do those rules work, exactly? perhaps, it's who has the best lawyer!?

When a song samples another record, usually arrangments are made to give credit to the songwriters.

[thisoldheart]

when the arrangement is approximately the same as in my amy winehouse example, does it make any difference that she did not use the actual marvin & tammi track, but had the daptones recreate it. i am still confused.

[bankhousedave]

Amy composed Tears Dry as a tribute to Motown, Marvin and Tammi, and openly acknowledged the fact. There is no copyright on arrangements and the song is wholly original, but with musical references.

On Supremes sing Rodgers and Hart, the people at Motown's West Coast studio arranged Lover so it would sound like a Sups HDH song [[nearly).

It's almost inevitable that certain licks, hooks and references will pass from what an artist or arranger listens to into their own work. When I started out in a blues band, we played the same chord sequence over and over. Half the numbers started the same and nearly all of them finished the same. Nobody complained, because they picked up on the differences rather than the similarities. 'Well, I woke up this morning....' 'Well, I woke up last Thursday fortnight...' Totally different. But, either way, my baby done me wrong to the accompaniment of a selection of licks from Otis Spann, Memphis Slim, Freddy King, John Lee, Muddy, who all got them from someone else back along the line. A lot of music is in the air, or in your consciousness, and you pull it out when it seems to be needed. It's rare, except as a tribute, for a musician or arranger to purposely imitate, rather than use his own creativity.

Of course, now that a lot of stuff is done in someone's bedroom without any musicians or arrangers, things are soewhat different.

[Hotspurman]

Actually, there is copyright in an arrangement. Twenty years ago [[was it really that long!), Willie Morales recorded a dance version of KC & The Sunshine Band's 'Please Don't Go' which was released under the group name Double You. Network Records attempted to pick up the song for distribution, only to discover it had already been leased to XYZ. Rather than miss out, Network had Chris King and Winston Williams record an almost exact copy of the Double You version which was released as being by KWS. KWS topped the UK chart, whilst Double You made only #41. However, XYZ launched a copyright infringement suit against Network and won, with the judge [[whose name escapes me) reserving his most scathing comments towards Pinnacle, who had distributed both versions in the UK.

[copley]

Ashford & Simpson are credited with the 'Mountain' sample on 'Tears Dry On Their Own' on the 'Back To Black' sleeve notes.

[thisoldheart]

ashford & simpson are also credited on winehouse's "tears dry" on her new 'lioness' album. that version,with a slightly different name, does not use any of the a&s arrangement, but the melody is the same as the 'back to black' melody. why credit a&s on the 'lioness' version when none of their work is being used? still don't get it!

[144man]

Probably for administrative convenience. After all, lyricists still get credited on instrumental versions of songs.

[bankhousedave]

Good point 144.

[TransatlanticDustyLover]

Hello everyone! I'm new on the forum, but I found you through my research. I'm a musicologist who studies Dusty Springfield, specifically the influence that American Soul music had on her career. I absolutely LOVE this thread because "Go Ahead On" is one of my favorite Dusty songs, so when I saw this I had to join in the fun.

The first time I heard the song I definitely heard "Come See About Me" because it has the same groove [[which is, in interest of the thread's topic, something not easy to fight in terms of copyright laws, from what I understand). The fact that it begins with a really solid hook demonstrates the influence that Motown had on the song. I hear the influence of various Motown songs in "Go Ahead On" and I agree with a lot of what you've said.

Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned that Dusty Springfield and two of her backing singers [[Madeline Bell and Lesley Duncan) wrote the song together. Someone did mention the Ready Steady Go! Sound of Motown episode, but she also sang with the Motortown Revue at the Brooklyn Fox Theater in September of 1964 for Murray the K's holiday shows. She's said in interviews that the shows started in the morning [[as some of you probably know), so one of the Vandellas would always oversleep and Dusty would fill in off stage. She knew everyone's routines and backup vocals. So of course she would have this type of music in her musical vocabulary.

Some of you are concerned with production. I'm interested to know what you'd think of Madeline Bell's recording. It's slower and the instrumental emphasis is different from Dusty's recording. I'll mention that Dusty sang backup on this recording [[under the alias Gladys Thong), and Lesley Duncan may have sang backup, too, though I'm not totally sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pE_uRk28Xc

Looking forward to chatting with you all!