No Supremes On Stop in the Name of Love etc.

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Brad, you sure know your Supreme voices.

There certainly is a difference between what you hear on the background of Reflections and what you hear on Going Down For The Third Time; and they are side by side on the Singles Collection ~ another reason you want the CD. And yes, Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love sound very different than the voice in the background of Going Down For The Third Time. Florence was definitely there in the later song.

That all makes a great deal of sense and I agree that the Andantes are almost totally unknown outside the fan circle and this all makes little difference to all those people attending Diana's concerts these days and who hear the songs on oldies radio.

Nor to those who attended the 100 concert performances Mary Wilson gave in 2011 here and around the World!

**rod_rick** · 12-25-2011, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

I never said that the Supremes were not on "Reflections." Please don't misquote me. All I said was that Florence was not on it. It's very clear when you listen to the track that it is Mary along with someone who is not Florence. I firmly believe it's Marlene Barrow since it is the same voice you hear on "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Compare the soprano singing on "Reflections" to the soprano singing on "Going Down For The Third Time," "He's All I Got," "I Hear A Symphony," etc. You will notice they are two different singers.

Let me throw something out here. Has anyone ever considered that the producer may have wanted a different sound, so just maybe had Florence to sing differently. For example on "Baby Love", Florence's tones are rounder until she get to the "Need You" and the ladies voices were changing as well, so Florence just might be on those recording.

**jobeterob** · 12-26-2011, 02:12 AM

This is from the essay on Reflections on the Singles Collection:

Ladies and Gentlemen, Diana Ross & the Supremes

Ms. Ross had been the focal point of the group for years. Now her starring role was confirmed on the label of Reflections and further defined on the subsequent album release Diana Ross and the Supremes Greatest Hits.

Reflections and its hook line "the way life used to be," proved to be bittersweet: although Florence Ballard took part in the sessions, by the time the single was released she had been officially let go.

**thaperson** · 12-26-2011, 11:34 AM

The Andates deserve the credit for all of the songs that they sang on. Some of those songs have been played all across the world for over forty years.

I can understand being uncomfortable with the truth it really reveals, but give credit where credit is due, people.

**carlo** · 12-26-2011, 01:39 PM

I agree, thaperson.

**jobeterob** · 12-26-2011, 06:16 PM

I remember in the Andantes book, while Louvain never came off as bitter or a complainer, she did at the end say the acknowledgements for the Andantes were sparse.

As time goes on and we hear more and more, you can see why there are some resentments in both the Andantes and Supremes camps.

I wonder what the Andantes, the Supremes, the Vandellas, the Marvelettes, Martha Reeves and Diana Ross knew of what Motown and HDH were doing or if they knew nothing.

I expect the Andantes got paid a session fee but never got any kind of royalties.

**motony** · 12-26-2011, 09:15 PM

nor should they get any royalties, they were paid session singers just like the muscians. They had a steady pay check.

**Motown Andy** · 12-26-2011, 09:20 PM

The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

**luke** · 12-26-2011, 09:41 PM

So are you saying it's Jackie, Flo and Mary on the version Jackie is on??

**Sugarchilehoneybaby** · 12-27-2011, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by BobC

I have heard clips of D, M and F singing this song live many times and they all sounded great--so why would they need somebody else to sing it? I can see adding some vocals to round it all out, but I am very skeptical that neither F nor M are on that record. This song came out at the peak of their winning streak and I think Flo would have raised hell if her voice were replaced. Why have we not heard about this, when we have known for decades that M and C were not singing on some of the later tracks like "Love Child?" I read an interview with Gordy a while back and he said the best thing about the original Supremes was that they could sing acapella anytime, anywhere-and sound great. So why replace them?

I think this is nonsense. Just the fact that if Mary isn't directly involved in writing the liner notes, Motown usually gets half the Supremes story wrong. Remember how at Motown 25 they thought Mary Wilson was Mary Wells? Or what about that 70's Supremes collection that had Diana Ross on the cover? Just goes to show Motown's indifference towards anybody but Diana Ross, which is sad. The fans know better than Motown most of the time.

BobC,

I could understand your point in the older compilations, but seriously, for the last 10 or so years, Harry, Andy, & George have been handling the fact-finding and minutiae on these marvelous reissues, and those guys KNOW THEIR MOTOWN. In fact, George has been involved in Supremes everything since the 25th Anniversary Collection...all the way to the 50th Anniversary Collection!

I do not think that Andy/Harry/George are getting any facts wrong.

As for Mary's accuracy in her recollections...or Diana's for that matter...there are bound to be things that even THEY weren't aware of! Very likely, a lot of this stuff is [[or was) known only by H-D-H, Berry, and possibly Russ Terrana [[since he mixed and mastered many, many Motown singles from the 60s through the 80s.

Finally, how come no one ever gets bents out of shape that the Four Tops records sound mainly like Levi Stubbs & The Andantes? It's not inconceivable that the Andantes - marvelously talented professional singers - either fleshed out - or even replaced - the original backing vocal tracks on some Supremes sides.

And if they did - and it sure sounds like they did - would H-D-H or Berry WANT to tell Mary and, especially, Flo? Considering her legendary temper, if she had known, Berry might not have even been able to function "down there" to be able to able to conceive Miss Rhonda!!

**midnight johnny** · 12-27-2011, 01:10 AM

Andy....thanks so much for RE-clarifying. Happy New Year!
John

**luke** · 12-27-2011, 10:33 AM

Im still confused!

**Roberta75** · 12-27-2011, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by luke

Im still confused!

You are? Bless.

**jillfoster** · 12-27-2011, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Motown Andy

The Supremes story is a very complicated one, and when discussing who sang on which records, it is sensitive not only to the Supremes, but to the Andantes, and to the fans. What we report may be loved by many, and in some situations, may not be popular, but it is always important that we tell the truth. Our motivation is that of preserving the Supremes legacy, not diminishing it. If we report a kind word about one Supreme, Mary, Flo or Diana, it is often misconstrued as a slap to the other two ladies. On any project I work on, I can assure you that this is not, and will never be the case. I support them, and I love them, both professionally and personally.

There’s a recent thread about what songs are Tammi Terrell, and what songs are Valerie Simpson. The thread is long and the argument is interesting, but the truth can be found in the research, and in listening to the isolated vocals on the multi-tracks. However, the answers we could give, in the Tammi scenario, in the Supremes scenario, or in other artists scenarios may not be what fans want to hear. I’d rather tell the truth, for myself, and for an accurate history, than to be popular. And at the end of the day, all I can do is present the facts, even if they are conflicting, and if there is no clear answer, the listener can be the judge. Sometimes we have an answer, sometimes we don’t.

The Supremes/Andantes situation does exist, but it has absolutely been blown out of proportion. The Supremes background vocals by Mary and Flo, are on most of their records leading up to Flo’s departure. But there are some they are not on, pure and simple. Mary Wilson has acknowledged this, Florence Ballard in interviews acknowledged this, Diana Ross has acknowledged this.

As one learns the Supremes voices, it becomes more clear when you hear them. Once you learn the Andantes voices, the picture comes right into focus. And if you’re lucky enough to see the Motown session logs and tape cards, or get to hear the isolated vocals, there becomes no doubt when you hear the Supremes, the Andantes, or both.

When I am asked, I often give fans one example to listen to. There are many, but here is my favorite one. Listen to the Supremes version of “Fancy Passes” [[issued on Never-Before-Released-Masters and the same version is the bonus track version issued on There’s A Place For Us). Mary and Flo have a spoken passage. If you know their voices from this song, you’ll also know that when you hear the same spoken passage in the Barbara McNair version, that those girls are the Andantes. Listen to the same parts, learn the two different sets of vocals. Now go listen to other Supremes songs you may have in question.

Stop! In The Name Of Love is the latest hot topic, so I’ll acknowledge it here. Listen to the alternate from disc 2 of More Hits, also in a different mix on the box set. Now listen to the live versions on At The Copa, or the video from the Hollywood Palace. They are all consistent. Now listen to the released “hit” version. The voice you are hearing, is Jackie Hicks. Go back to McNair’s Fancy Passes, you’ll hear Jackie there. You’ll hear her on Run Run Run. But you’ll also hear her clearly on Ask The Lonely by the Four Tops, I Heard It Through The Grapevine by Marvin Gaye and dozens of other non-Supremes songs

I’m sure that regardless of what I could say, some will argue forever. I respect everyone’s opinions. But, it is what it is. More importantly, this is not the first time this information has been suggested, discussed or challenged. Nor will it be the last. I can only confirm what I know.

This does not, and will not tarnish the Supremes reputation as the greatest female group of all-time. The roads they paved for others must be acknowledged and respected. What they accomplished has never been duplicated.

I’ll save the discussion about every other Supremes song for another day. If they weren’t on a particular song, well, it is what it is. They’re still on literally hundreds of other songs. Mary Wilson is still singing these hits today, Diana Ross is still singing this hits today. Diana and Mary’s legacies separately, and together as the Supremes, with Florence [[and Cindy, respectfully) will last long after we’re all gone. I personally love them, they are incredible women. The people I work with love them too, as I know all of you do as well. I have nothing but love and respect for each of these ladies, for all nine of them actually, and will continue to support what they did, and continue to do. I hope you will also.

I listened very carefully to both versions, and my opinion still stands that they BOTH are on the hit version, Supremes and Andantes. and if it WAS only Andantes on "Stop", then can someone tell me, out of all the acapella Supremes vocals to choose from, why would one that Flo and Mary were not on be chosen as the intro music for the Reflections DVD? These type of decisions are why some fans would consider certain things to be a slap in the face. another example, the #1's cover with the chopped off heads... when for the last 50 years of photography, society at large has joked and laughed at amateur family members taking pictures and cutting the top of people's heads off. Things like these are the reason fans feel the way they do, I think it's obvious to most.

**ejluther** · 12-27-2011, 04:10 PM

another example, the #1's cover with the chopped off heads... when for the last 50 years of photography, society at large has joked and laughed at amateur family members taking pictures and cutting the top of people's heads off.

Since the disc featured different versions of The Supremes I always thought that was a deliberate visual nod to the iconography of the 3 of them, regardless which 3 it happened to be. But I guess I'm not surprised some people were upset by it...

**motony** · 12-27-2011, 04:26 PM

I think alot of this was the thought process of the day[[the 60's) and that the women in music wasn't thought of so much as a career & that the men, writers, producers, managers [[husbands) controlled everything.

**thisoldheart** · 12-27-2011, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by motony

I think alot of this was the thought process of the day[[the 60's) and that the women in music wasn't thought of so much as a career & that the men, writers, producers, managers [[husbands) controlled everything.

the supremes #1's album is from this decade. i fear the unthoughtful packaging on classic records [[and i might add DVD's) is because some 20 year old intern is in charge and doesn't know a damn thing about music history!

**luke** · 12-27-2011, 09:14 PM

You said it Jill. And now we find out more info about an Andante on Stop in the name of Love-50 years later-y then y now?? Im kind of reaching my limit. Why but stuff that all the Supremes arent on or others are added to?

**stephanie** · 12-27-2011, 09:30 PM

I was thinking about this yesterday when I was listening to this wonderful collection. I hear Mary and Flo and one Andante.

**soulballad** · 12-27-2011, 09:57 PM

I had always thought I heard Jackie because her deep voice can be easily picked out on most of the songs that she sang on. To my ears I hear Florence on the top harmony, Mary in the middle and Jackie filling out the bottom harmony. There are some additional oooohs that are probably Marlene and Louvaine but those are barely audible. The funny thing is there was a recent thread on here mentioning a lot of the songs that the Primettes/Supremes sang backup on for other artists. They sang on sooo many songs of theirs and others. Now here are my questions. The Motown singles box states that it was Marlene who sang with Flo and Mary on Stop. Who wrote these notes? Do "they" not really know the difference between the ladies. If that's the case then why should we belive anything that's written because it might change based on the opinon of who's writing it regardless of if it's true or not. Why put in print that Flo and Mary and one Andante sang on the released version and then print that it was the Andantes on the hit version and now we're getting yet another twist. I tend to believe that the old machine is very well at work here. A lot of good things have come about in the last ten years and some great music but the old Motown mentality is still in place in many ways imo.

**stephanie** · 12-27-2011, 10:08 PM

Soulballad the 3 people who would know the answers to these questions are HDH and I wonder if they prefer not to talk about it or why they have not been asked. Surely they would remember. The Supremes and Andantes have been on so many recordings I would not expect them to remember every single session they did.

**jobeterob** · 12-27-2011, 10:23 PM

Thanks for your participation Andy; logical, rational, honest and very reasonable.

**jobeterob** · 12-31-2011, 04:26 PM

Andy, if you read this, there is one more question I wonder if you could answer; your booklet says Florence Ballard was at the sessions for Reflections but it doesn't say she sang on the single.

Can you say if she did?

Some people that listen closely are sure she wasn't; I have no idea from what I hear on that song.

**marv2** · 12-31-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Andy, if you read this, there is one more question I wonder if you could answer; your booklet says Florence Ballard was at the sessions for Reflections but it doesn't say she sang on the single.

Can you say if she did?

Some people that listen closely are sure she wasn't; I have no idea from what I hear on that song.

Nah, she came to the session and just sat around and did her nails.

**luke** · 01-02-2012, 02:03 PM

LOLOL Marv--and well said Bob C!

**marv2** · 01-02-2012, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by luke

LOLOL Marv--and well said Bob C!

Happy New Year Luke! hehehehehehehe!

**luke** · 01-02-2012, 07:43 PM

Have a great new year Marv! And by the way it's MR Luke.

**ejluther** · 01-21-2012, 10:32 AM

These type of decisions are why some fans would consider certain things to be a slap in the face. another example, the #1's cover with the chopped off heads... when for the last 50 years of photography, society at large has joked and laughed at amateur family members taking pictures and cutting the top of people's heads off. Things like these are the reason fans feel the way they do, I think it's obvious to most.

I just wanted to also point out that the back cover of the ELV1S [[#1) CD also featured a chopped-off photo:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...EL._SS400_.jpg
I think that's what The Supremes' No. 1's was going for, too. After all, the entire project was inspired by that CD [[as was The Beatles' #1 - which, by the way, was the best selling CD of the decade)...

**jobeterob** · 01-21-2012, 01:53 PM

Well the ultimate trickery and fraud might be Right On.

At least with Diana Ross, everyone knew she was out front and the background was secondary. But with Right On, we didn't realize the Supremes would still be off singing with Diana Ross and making money, while Jean was recording the album with the Andantes.

Thankfully, this appears to have changed for the final albums from the 70's Supremes.

**mwmr** · 01-21-2012, 02:06 PM

I do not think using other backing vocalists was a wise move by Berry Gordy..i actually think its deceitful and very dishonest.He duped and hoodwinked the fans, for whatever his reason, and thats not nice.

People ought supremes records thinking thats what they were getting when they celearly werent. These days I'd sue his ass off for misrepresenttion and trading standards [[Millie Vanillie anyone?)

Its also insulting to Mary and Flo..and then Cindy..3 competant singers.

If I'd have been MW/CB i would have refused to gon on tv and mime to a record i wasnt on.

Chart history shows the later singles which MW/CB are not on performed very badly.

**Penny** · 01-21-2012, 02:07 PM

AVON Penny here. I need to weight in a bit. The Andantes were just one more piece of the successful Motown machine. They were used many, many times and for many reasons. I am okay with that. When I hear the music I hear the group members singing and when I am really lucky I can pick out some other voices and now I know who they belong too. They were great songs....timeless songs and they are that way because so many SUPER talents worked on them. Enjoy the music. I do! Especially while soaking in Skin So Soft in the tub.

Penny

**mwmr** · 01-21-2012, 02:07 PM

and which version of Stop! ,on which cd set actually features MW/FB then??

**jobeterob** · 01-21-2012, 03:38 PM

MWMr has probably hit on why this is a hot subject 40 years later ~ it is viewed as an insult, I suppose ~ to Mary, Florence's memory, Cindy, the hardcore fans that know all of this, and to Diana and Jean Terrell; who knows what any of these people knew although I suppose they must have known their own voices and known when they weren't there. It seems to me this was the kind of thing Jean was occasionally talking about.

It was so clear looking back that there were additions to Someday We'll Be Together, but we just accepted it as it was at the time and it did work for Motown ~ Love Child and Someday We'll be Together are the Supremes biggest hits; or among Diana's or whomever.

And it was only the 45 version of Stop in the Name of Love that we have verification of the wipe on.

**144man** · 01-21-2012, 03:46 PM

There's not a lot of point in judging what was common practice in the past by presentday standards.

**ralpht** · 01-21-2012, 04:14 PM

Penny has the right idea. I've said it before, and I'll repeat: all is not what it may seem in any facet of the entertainment business. Motown was no different in that it simply tried to put out the best product possible. If that meant bringing in some back-up singers, so be it. As long as the artists were able to perform live and satisfy, then why not?

**marv2** · 01-21-2012, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

In the booklet that goes with the Supremes Singles Collection, it says there are no Supremes on

1. Stop in the Name of Love - that the Andantes have the released version

2. In and Out of Love - the Supremes vocals were replaced with the Andantes for the released version

3. No Supremes on any of the cuts on Merry Christmas - it's all the Andantes and children.

As time goes on, it is starting to appear that the group really was Diana Ross and some backup singers that we formed a connection to but weren't really on a lot of the records - nothing after the Reflections time period and questions raised about a number of songs prior to that period - You Can't Hurry Love, Reflections.

Kind of big surprise to me; I listen to the songs on the singles collection which has excellent sound and for all those years, I was convinced I was hearing Mary, Florence and Cindy.

[[courtesy of Fran) Here is what is said [[in reference to "Stop In the Name of Love") in the Complete Motown singles collection for 1965 "HDH devised all the ingredients for this production Diana's captivating lead the perky retorts from Mary and Flo" and a little help from the Andantes' Marlene Barrow,

**jobeterob** · 02-22-2012, 11:15 PM

So..............I have a question.

Last night, again, Andy and George said, again, that the single released version of Stop in the Name of Love features Diana Ross and the Andantes.

They reiterated there was no disrespect to any Supremes intended, but occasionally, they point out what they discover and set out the facts.

They confirmed there are other takes of the song featuring Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard, just not the single version.

Doesn't it compromise the credibility of some of our posters who continually deny what we were told by people with access to the vaults, who won't listen in the face of irrefutable evidence?

Whenever we see the words "he's lying", that's a clue. It's probably the bang on truth.

**franjoy56** · 02-22-2012, 11:38 PM

Again on the anniversary of Flo's death i have to weigh in on this foolish issue of
people insisting Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard are not on the released version of
Stop in the name of love, I think it is full of baloney, no disrespect to Andy or George Solomon, I clearly hear Florence Ballard on the single, i also hear two alto voices one must be Mary and the other one of the Andantes. I think for people to insist Mary and Flo are not on the song is disrespectful and i am sure Diana herself would think so. Why would they replace Mary and Flo completely when they were on a hot streak with three number one's previously, yes i can understand them adding voices behind Mary and Flo to fill out the sound which by the way was not on the three previous singles nor would it be featured on Back in my arms again [[mary and Flo) is beyond me, it simply does not make sense. I am sure if the Supremes were replaced completely n this song you would have heard about this long ago. Stop downgradin the the importance of the Supremes they were a group and if the andantes are on the released version of sitnol they are not there without mary and flo, by the way I like the unreleased version on the box set better the background vocals of Mary and Flo sound smoother and certainly would have flown up the charts just as fast.

**marv2** · 02-23-2012, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

Again on the anniversary of Flo's death i have to weigh in on this foolish issue of
people insisting Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard are not on the released version of
Stop in the name of love, I think it is full of baloney, no disrespect to Andy or George Solomon, I clearly hear Florence Ballard on the single, i also hear two alto voices one must be Mary and the other one of the Andantes. I think for people to insist Mary and Flo are not on the song is disrespectful and i am sure Diana herself would think so. Why would they replace Mary and Flo completely when they were on a hot streak with three number one's previously, yes i can understand them adding voices behind Mary and Flo to fill out the sound which by the way was not on the three previous singles nor would it be featured on Back in my arms again [[mary and Flo) is beyond me, it simply does not make sense. I am sure if the Supremes were replaced completely n this song you would have heard about this long ago. Stop downgradin the the importance of the Supremes they were a group and if the andantes are on the released version of sitnol they are not there without mary and flo, by the way I like the unreleased version on the box set better the background vocals of Mary and Flo sound smoother and certainly would have flown up the charts just as fast.

Great post Fran and thank you for also remembering Florence today. I will never forget the moment I heard the news, where I was and what I was doing. I can also hear both Mary and Florence on that record. Maybe they released different versions with each pressing back then? Doesn't really matter because it is Mary and Flo and Diane singing.

**jobeterob** · 02-23-2012, 02:27 AM

Fran, just last night again George and Andy confirmed this.

They have the logs note, the masters, have separated the vocals and they said while there is a version with the Supremes on it, the 45 that was released was Diana and the Andantes.

Unfortunately, this is fact; disliked by a few, but fact.

Did you not listen to Andy and George on Midnight Johnny's show? One of the best shows. Scherrie and Susaye and Jean Terrell have been on before.

You've got to listen.

The show will be available in podcast soon MJ says.............so you can hear it for yourself.

**robbert** · 02-23-2012, 10:17 PM

I love the discussions on this "professional" level.

I don't have to repeat what many of you have already said.
I might add that I, like Brad, do "know" my Supremes voices. I was there, standing next to them when they were singing LIVE in The Netherlands, in 1965 [[DMF) and in 1968 [[DMC). I've been to their sound- and camera rehearsals. I know Florence's high pitched sound, the rough [[slightly nasal) edge on that voice, as opposed to the smooth edge on Mary's. Cindy's soprano was not outstanding - at least in comparison with Flo's highly distinctive sound. Cindy just didn't have that distinction.

I've also been on the wrong foot all those years about who is singing what. But the WHY question came long after DRATS had disbanded. I have been listening to all those album tracks in the sixties and sometimes thought: How clever can they make them sound! Those technicians must have doubled them!

How true that would appear to be. But nevertheless, I still love my girls. All of them. The divas and the non-divas. And by saying that I mean Diana, Mary, Florence and Cindy.

**stingbeelee** · 02-24-2012, 02:37 AM

It is also a fact that The Complete Motown singles Vol 5 used as their primary sources 'The Hitsville Session Logbooks, The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index, The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files, The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967.
And yet it is now said that the Complete Motown Singles data, in this matter, is incorrect.
If both of these projects used the same source information, how can they come to two different conclusions?
The Complete Motown Singles collection, as reported on this forum over the years, was a monumental task, took hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, no documents untouched, all sources verified, and they stated that Mary, Flo and Marlene Borrow sang on Stop! as indicated by the sources above.
And yet, after millions of copies of Stop!, thousands of listenings by compilists who put these recordings on CD, dozens of re-mixes by engineers on years of CDs, and forty seven years after it was recorded, it is now stated that it was the Andantes who sang on the released version? I have a hard time believing it. I am not saying they are wrong or liers, but I am shaking my head.
And so yes, the sources I mentioned are facts too, whether they are liked or not.

**marv2** · 02-24-2012, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by stingbeelee

It is also a fact that The Complete Motown singles Vol 5 used as their primary sources 'The Hitsville Session Logbooks, The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index, The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files, The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967.
And yet it is now said that the Complete Motown Singles data, in this matter, is incorrect.
If both of these projects used the same source information, how can they come to two different conclusions?
The Complete Motown Singles collection, as reported on this forum over the years, was a monumental task, took hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, no documents untouched, all sources verified, and they stated that Mary, Flo and Marlene Borrow sang on Stop! as indicated by the sources above.
And yet, after millions of copies of Stop!, thousands of listenings by compilists who put these recordings on CD, dozens of re-mixes by engineers on years of CDs, and forty seven years after it was recorded, it is now stated that it was the Andantes who sang on the released version? I have a hard time believing it. I am not saying they are wrong or liers, but I am shaking my head.
And so yes, the sources I mentioned are facts too, whether they are liked or not.

Thank you for this Stingbeelee!

**bradsupremes** · 02-24-2012, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by stingbeelee

It is also a fact that The Complete Motown singles Vol 5 used as their primary sources 'The Hitsville Session Logbooks, The Motown Library Tape Filing Card Index, The Motown 45 RPM Label Copy Files, The Jobete Music Company Catalog January 1959 - March 31, 1967.
And yet it is now said that the Complete Motown Singles data, in this matter, is incorrect.
If both of these projects used the same source information, how can they come to two different conclusions?
The Complete Motown Singles collection, as reported on this forum over the years, was a monumental task, took hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, no documents untouched, all sources verified, and they stated that Mary, Flo and Marlene Borrow sang on Stop! as indicated by the sources above.
And yet, after millions of copies of Stop!, thousands of listenings by compilists who put these recordings on CD, dozens of re-mixes by engineers on years of CDs, and forty seven years after it was recorded, it is now stated that it was the Andantes who sang on the released version? I have a hard time believing it. I am not saying they are wrong or liers, but I am shaking my head.
And so yes, the sources I mentioned are facts too, whether they are liked or not.

You're missing one thing.....the multitrack tapes. They tell a completely different story...

**jobeterob** · 02-24-2012, 03:08 AM

Brad is much better at this than I am...............but what he has written above is what I recall Andy and George said on Tuesday night.

Robbert, as usual, is correct. Keeping this professional is what we want to do. It is not about irrational emotionalism or demeaning anyone. It is about history; the same history as 3 girls created on Ed Sullivan in December, 1964. That's what Brad is giving you.

It is that same history and the same love for Motown, Berry, Diana, Florence, Mary & Cindy that leads people to leave SD and ignore certain posters who don't have that same love and respect.

**jillfoster** · 02-24-2012, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

You're missing one thing.....the multitrack tapes. They tell a completely different story...

Brad, they had the damned multitracks when they compiled the complete motown singles! The problem here is that TWO OFFICIAL Motown releases are giving contradictory information, when they were researched and released less than 5 years from each other. Obviously, one of them is wrong. And what do the multi track tapes tell, then? Do they tell that some people don't know what Flo's voice sounds like?

**jillfoster** · 02-24-2012, 03:27 AM

For some reason Andy thinks it;s not them because the vocal on Mary and Flo on the multi track doesn't sound exactly like the live vocal on the Hollywood Palace [[He's stated this) Well compare ANOTHER live vocal to the isolated vocal on the multi track... and tell me what you all hear:

**stingbeelee** · 02-24-2012, 03:28 AM

Hi bradsupremes;
I do not have the Supremes single collection, so does it state that they sourced the material from the master tapes?
I am also wondering that if the logs, notes, the indexes, etc. have stated Mary, Flo and Marlene for so long, could they be incorrect?
Are the compliers stating that from listening, they have determined that it is the Andantes?
I have to pick this conversation up in the morning, it is an interesting thread to me.

**jillfoster** · 02-24-2012, 03:33 AM

Well, Stingbee, we know that that not all notations were correct in the tape vaults, after all... Flo's "O Holy night" stated on the tape can that there were no vocals. And I think that yes.... they are just making these determinations from listening..... but it wouldn't surprise me if certain members of the Andantes aren't planting these opinions in these guys' minds. I DO hear an Andante on there... I've said that...but not instead of, in addition to.

**ivyfield** · 02-24-2012, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by captainjames

I am sorry I do not hear Mary on "Stop" or "Reflections".

Showbiz stories eh? I remember the very first time I met Mary properly and we had time to sit and chat. I asked 'Do you remember the reflections recording session?' and she said 'Of course!' Hmmm... but after reading all this fascinating stuff I wonder if she actually was there. You've got to give it to those Andate ladies - they did a bloody good job! Must admit I did question many of the album tracks after Flo had gone. It just didn't sound the same but hey, did it really matter? I mean, there's lots of bands/groups still out there using 'extra talent' to pad out their product. Away from the Supremes for a second, I remember reading an interview with Dennis Edwards in 1976 for the LP 'The Temptations do The Temptations' where he said there were a lot of session singers on that album. Some days he'd go into the studio with other singers and he'd be the only Temptation there! It's still one of my favourite albums tho...