No Supremes On Stop in the Name of Love etc.

**jobeterob** · 12-23-2011, 02:31 PM

In the booklet that goes with the Supremes Singles Collection, it says there are no Supremes on

1. Stop in the Name of Love - that the Andantes have the released version

2. In and Out of Love - the Supremes vocals were replaced with the Andantes for the released version

3. No Supremes on any of the cuts on Merry Christmas - it's all the Andantes and children.

As time goes on, it is starting to appear that the group really was Diana Ross and some backup singers that we formed a connection to but weren't really on a lot of the records - nothing after the Reflections time period and questions raised about a number of songs prior to that period - You Can't Hurry Love, Reflections.

Kind of big surprise to me; I listen to the songs on the singles collection which has excellent sound and for all those years, I was convinced I was hearing Mary, Florence and Cindy.

**carlo** · 12-23-2011, 02:36 PM

I'm not surprised. Mary and Flo still sang on a lot of tracks. The Country, Western and Pop album also has Mary and Flo with the Andantes on some of the tracks [[ie. Funny How Time Slips Away).

These revelations don't ruin my appreciation for these ladies and their music.

**motony** · 12-23-2011, 02:55 PM

I say BS and that someone has been in those "vaults" and mislabeled stuff to either boost the case for the lead singer or to screw with the real fans.Thats the Supremes on Stop.I know on the Deliver the Singles for Martha & the Vandellas that in the booklet it had additional vocals by Andantes on several tracks that were just Roz & Annette.This whole Andante thing has been blown out of proportion.

**bradsupremes** · 12-23-2011, 03:22 PM

This Supremes/Andantes discussion has always been a fascination to me. Prior to 1967, whenever the Andantes did background work on a Supremes track, they truly did their best to sound like Mary and Flo. Take a listen to such tracks as "Stop! In The Name of Love," "Slow Down," "Whisper You Love Me Boy," etc. which have the Andantes on them. It really does sound like Mary and Flo. After 1967, the pressure cooker of the recording studio increased so the Andantes were adding their vocals to tracks without knowing who the tracks were assigned to, thus they no longer were trying to mimic the sound of the group the tracks were assigned to. There are a few exceptions though post-1967. Take a listen to "The Beginning Of The End Of Love," "You've Been So Wonderful To Me," "How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone," and "You Gave Me Love." The Andantes are trying their best to sound like Mary and Cindy and it's believable.

Carlo is right though. This does not diminish my appreciation for the music and group nor does it diminish the importance of the group's work. The Supremes as a group still broke down barriers.

**captainjames** · 12-23-2011, 03:34 PM

Funny that this has been brought up after al these years but I have never thought I heard Mary and Flo on "Stop" or " Cant Hurry Love". Mary, Flo and later Cindy had to know this right ?

**bradsupremes** · 12-23-2011, 03:38 PM

Also....I've come to realize that the songs where people question and debate who is singing the background vocals are the songs I begin to pay attention to such as "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Reflections." There are four songs, at least to my knowledge, that were done by Mary and Marlene Barrow. The background vocals for "You Can't Hurry Love," "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart," and "Come On And See Me" were recorded July 5, 1966 and then "Reflections" on May 9, 1967. The Andantes were later dubbed onto "Come On And See Me." I have a feeling there are a few more Mary & Marlene tracks, but I'll get to that later...

**captainjames** · 12-23-2011, 03:50 PM

I am sorry I do not hear Mary on "Stop" or "Reflections".

RossHolloway · 12-23-2011, 03:56 PM

On the groups #1 Singles collection on the long fade version of Stop! I clearly hear Florence at the end ..this song version goes longer than the 45 version of the song.

**jobeterob** · 12-23-2011, 04:06 PM

I believe there was an attempt by Universal on the Singles Collection, to lay down a definitive historical record for the real fans on exactly who is singing.

And it is really only the fans that are interested in these subtleties. The Supremes will always be Supreme with Diana singing in front of Mary and Flo and Cindy, always loved and remembered.

**motony** · 12-23-2011, 04:10 PM

I find it funny & ironic that so many want to credit the Andantes for everything that their one shot actual release on VIP credited to the Andantes and the lead singer is Ann Bogan.

**marybrewster** · 12-23-2011, 05:06 PM

I can't say for certain I hear Mary, but I do hear Flo in the released version of "Stop". Especially on the words [[in the name of) LOVE [[before you) BREAK [[my) HEART.

**jobeterob** · 12-23-2011, 06:47 PM

From the Singles Booklet:

"Diana Mary and Florence recorded the song but four days later the tune was re-cut with the Andantes. This became the released version that received a Grammy Nomination for Best Contemporary Rock & Roll Performance by a Group. It lost to Flowers on the Wall by the Statler Brothers.

The Singles Collection is produced by Andrew Skurow and George Solomon; executive producer Harry Weinger.

**thaperson** · 12-23-2011, 07:34 PM

Forget who sang. How on earth did they lose the rock and roll award to a country group?

**luke** · 12-23-2011, 09:28 PM

Well said motony and let us not believe Andy etc who actually work there and do the compilations and have clear ad infinitum about these issues. lolol Anything to diminish Mary and Flo!

**jillfoster** · 12-23-2011, 11:13 PM

Something just ain't right here. Don't you all have the Reflections DVD? when the menus get ready to come up there is the acapella vocal of "Stop" playing, if you don't know that's Flo, your'e pretty deaf.

**carlo** · 12-23-2011, 11:31 PM

I think the confusion is coming from Rob's first post, which says that The Andantes got the released version of Stop! In the Name of Love. This is not the case. I was always under the impression that Mary and Flo are in fact on the record, but the Andantes were added in as well. I just checked out the acapella version on Youtube and I can hear Flo on there...

**jillfoster** · 12-24-2011, 12:59 AM

It is confusing, carlo.... it's like somebody pointing at the sky and sayin it ain't blue.

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 01:07 AM

I hear Mary Wilson clearly on "Reflections" so I don't know what this guy Rob is talking about. I think it is just another sad attempt to give Diana Ross all the credit when it just isn't true.

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by carlo

I think the confusion is coming from Rob's first post, which says that The Andantes got the released version of Stop! In the Name of Love. This is not the case. I was always under the impression that Mary and Flo are in fact on the record, but the Andantes were added in as well. I just checked out the acapella version on Youtube and I can hear Flo on there...

I don't know if someone has been smoking or whatever, but I hear Flo, Mary and Diane clearly on this record. They sound so good. They sound like angels.

**jobeterob** · 12-24-2011, 01:26 AM

That's the wording from the CD booklet...........for both Stop in the Name of Love and the Children's Christmas Song. Wording from Universal. Make of it what you will I guess. Similar wording for In and Out of Love. I did get an email today saying the wording was deliberate.

**franjoy56** · 12-24-2011, 01:32 AM

i don't care what that book says after all these years someone is coming out and saying that
mary and flo are not on sitnol horse feathers, I hear Flo and I also hear two altos one must be
Mary the other possibly and Andante, i cannot buy this theory of the Andantes taking credit
for songs that are clearly Mary and especially Flo. Next theylll be saying the andantes are
on Come See About me, & back in my arms again and that girl singing backup on wdolg is not mary but an andante soundalike. shameful.

**jobeterob** · 12-24-2011, 02:31 AM

Ya, they knew these new revelations would burn some people ~ and then it comes in the week of the Lifetime Achievement Award.

The best songs are the ones with Flo clearly in the background.........Whisper You Love Me Boy, Nothing But Heartaches, It's All Your Fault, You Keep Me Hangin On etc.

**thisoldheart** · 12-24-2011, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by franjoy56

i cannot buy this theory of the Andantes taking credit
for songs that are clearly Mary and especially Flo. Next theylll be saying the andantes are
on Come See About me, & back in my arms again and that girl singing backup on wdolg is not mary but an andante soundalike. shameful.

first of all the andantes aren't "taking credit" for anything! secondly, it now makes sense that mary and flo would have been hard pressed to provide a full background sound. diana is certainly not on those backgrounds because if anyone has a distinctive voice, diana is the one. so it does make sense that the andantes could certainly have been called in to help fill in the sound.

i also think the point that the andantes on the early songs probably sound more like the supremes because they knew who they were backing up, whereas in the latter years they had no idea who might be singing on the final released version makes a whole lotta sense.

it also seems to me that as the supremes became hugely famous, motown would have wanted the most professional sound for them ... meaning smoothing out the sound to appeal to the largest possible audience. read: middle of the road! they could now afford to let gladys and others stick to hitting it big on the r&r charts, and not necessarily do that well on the pop charts.

was also reading the new notes on the supremes complete singles and wondered if there could be another "stop!" version perhaps used on an album that included mary and flo. the written notes, much like the notes on the "marvin and tammi complete session", seem to be very, very carefully worded. too carefully worded!

i am getting perturbed by posters that just don't want to hear any other versions of the 1960's party line version put out by the motown publicity machine. i'm glad these people aren't history teachers or we'd be in big trouble! and i am not saying i believe every possible scenario, but motown's checkered past makes the company fair game for much speculation!

also, remember motown was a great big family in the early years. anybody could be on those songs. i remember ms. reeves used to get up of her secretarial desk and run into the studio. now we hear that eddie holland often sang backup. i'm sure none of this is recorded on any session log books. they were all happy and excited to do anything to help out anyone. most people feel that way in their late teens and early twenties. it is later when you realize your house payment is due that you start remembering all that you did for a pittance while the boss and his sisters were sitting' pretty!

and on a final note: my appreciation for the andantes has changed and taken a 180 degree turn, based not on the questionable records, but on their work with the latter day marvelettes. i think they really work well with wanda's sultry voice, whereas the marvelettes work better with the rougher sound of gladys.

stay positive! remember: whether a particular person is on a certain record is really only important if you are interested in history, like me! for god's sake, we know each and everyone of them can and did sing!!!

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Ya, they knew these new revelations would burn some people ~ and then it comes in the week of the Lifetime Achievement Award.

The best songs are the ones with Flo clearly in the background.........Whisper You Love Me Boy, Nothing But Heartaches, It's All Your Fault, You Keep Me Hangin On etc.

those records have Mary, Diane and Flo on them. Sorry to burst your bubble.

**luke** · 12-24-2011, 11:27 AM

Marv-are you sure Diane Earle is on them? I heard that Telma Hopkins was often brought in to.....

**Motown4Ever518** · 12-24-2011, 11:42 AM

Thisoldheart,

Very well put. A record company that has no problem with using tire chains, stomping on a piece of wood, or banging on a cigarette ashtray is to me very interested in putting out the best product that they can. Which would carry over to recording of some of the groups by augmenting the group with other singers, or replacing the singers. I read the Andantes book and at no point did I get the sense that it was anything other than a fun 9-5, but a job none the less. Luckily for them, they were like only 1% of world, they worked at a job that they loved. And have shown trmendous class by not running all over the place saying that they sang on this song or that song.

**motony** · 12-24-2011, 12:17 PM

"the company" & their spokespersons have always tried to diminish the importance of the artists who sold the records to the buying public & paid for the concert tickets.As the years went by & the recordings were repackaged resold to new generations & the artists rightfully wanted their fair share it became more important to diminsh these artists as to their individual contribution for court cases ect. I love the Gordy family & what they accomplished but it is kinda amazing that they all lived lavishly[[and deservedly so) but none of the artists besides Diana Ross never lived more then a middle class lifestyle , but most worse off.Where the Motown artists of the 60's really lost out compared to their contemporaries in the business were the LIVE performance fees since Motown controlled every aspect of the artists career.For example the Crystals told me "Thank God Phil Spector only controlled our recording career".

**danman869** · 12-24-2011, 12:23 PM

OK, what makes someone think that The Andantes are the only ones on the background vocals of the released version of "Stop! In The Name Of Love"? In the new "More Hits: Expanded Edition," it says in the timeline: "January 5, 1965: 'Stop! In The Name Of Love' is cut for the Supremes. The girls dub-in their vocals on January 7 and again on January 11 WITH HELP FROM THE ANDANTES. The latter becomes the released version." I read "WITH HELP" to be that Mary and Florence [[and Diana?) are AUGMENTED with an overdub by [[or group recording with) The Andantes--just like would be done on many Marvelettes tunes and other songs. A mixture--filling out the sound. SWEETENING.

I love The Andantes and their presence doesn't lessen my love for any song. But what's the point of bringing this up?

**BobC** · 12-24-2011, 12:24 PM

I have heard clips of D, M and F singing this song live many times and they all sounded great--so why would they need somebody else to sing it? I can see adding some vocals to round it all out, but I am very skeptical that neither F nor M are on that record. This song came out at the peak of their winning streak and I think Flo would have raised hell if her voice were replaced. Why have we not heard about this, when we have known for decades that M and C were not singing on some of the later tracks like "Love Child?" I read an interview with Gordy a while back and he said the best thing about the original Supremes was that they could sing acapella anytime, anywhere-and sound great. So why replace them?

I think this is nonsense. Just the fact that if Mary isn't directly involved in writing the liner notes, Motown usually gets half the Supremes story wrong. Remember how at Motown 25 they thought Mary Wilson was Mary Wells? Or what about that 70's Supremes collection that had Diana Ross on the cover? Just goes to show Motown's indifference towards anybody but Diana Ross, which is sad. The fans know better than Motown most of the time.

**BobC** · 12-24-2011, 12:26 PM

Dan--I don't think anyone objects to the Adantes being on there, it's the part about M and F not being on it at all that bugs people.

**motony** · 12-24-2011, 12:28 PM

its a discussion by people who love the music & everyone is free to express their view about it. I love the Andantes too, especially their work with Mary Wells, but the Andantes didn't sell the records & they didn't do the hard work...on the road LIVE.

**floyjoy678** · 12-24-2011, 12:50 PM

I think it's Mary and Flo with the Andantes only because if you listen to At the Copa when they're performing Stop! it sounds almost identical to the studio recording, the vocals that is. I hear at least 6 voices in the background of the studio version, many people thought that it was just Marlene Barrow helping out Mary and Flo on the song but I think all three of the Andantes are there with them.

**carlo** · 12-24-2011, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by danman869

I love The Andantes and their presence doesn't lessen my love for any song. But what's the point of bringing this up?

The so called revelations in the first post of this thread have been known by most die-hard fans for years. However, the factoid in the first post about Mary and Flo not being on Stop! is incorrect.

I agree with you, Marv, in regards to "Reflections". I had a discussion with a member of this forum a couple of months ago and we both listened to the isolated background vocals from "Reflections" and Mary is clearly on there. We both heard her.

**jillfoster** · 12-24-2011, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by carlo

The so called revelations in the first post of this thread have been known by most die-hard fans for years. However, the factoid in the first post about Mary and Flo not being on Stop! is incorrect.

I agree with you, Marv, in regards to "Reflections". I had a discussion with a member of this forum a couple of months ago and we both listened to the isolated background vocals from "Reflections" and Mary is clearly on there. We both heard her.

Especially when you listen to the extended version with the acapella cold ending, Mary is clear as a bell there. What Danman posted about the liner notes from "More hits", to me, seems perfectly reasonable. But there's no way that Flo is not there... and I hear Mary as well... she just doens't stick out as much. I have a sneaking suspicion that someone is using recording logs, [[which may or may not be accurate) instead of their EARS. Wasn't Flo's "O holy night" found on a tape reel that was labelled as having no vocals? Having said that..... whoever wrote the text just might not have gotten the sentence worded exactly right, and made it seem that the Andantes, REPLACED, and not AUGMENTED Flo and Mary.

**jobeterob** · 12-24-2011, 02:05 PM

Perhaps they are throwing on the Andantes overtop the Supremes and sometimes it is all there.

In the Someday We'll Be Together section is says: He's My Sunny Boy was lifted from Love Child for the flip side and here there is some consolation that Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong are singing background.

How many people bought this CD? The sound is the best I've ever heard............but I'm no audiophile.

It says: "Track annotations and essays by George Solomon and Andrew Skurow, edited and revisited from original research and authorship by Keith Hughes and Bill Dahl for The Complete Motown Singles series."

Not exactly a bunch of novices; they must have known what they were getting into.

smark21 · 12-24-2011, 02:54 PM

Interesting that the 50th Anniversary and the More Hits Expanded edition were released within weeks of each other and that the accompanying booklets would have conflicting statements on who exactly was singing background on Stop. My ears tell me it's Flo, Mary and Andantes

**jillfoster** · 12-24-2011, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by smark21

Interesting that the 50th Anniversary and the More Hits Expanded edition were released within weeks of each other and that the accompanying booklets would have conflicting statements on who exactly was singing background on Stop. My ears tell me it's Flo, Mary and Andantes

I absolutely agree.

smark21 · 12-24-2011, 04:06 PM

All the controversy on what Supremes songs have Andantes to augment or replace Mary, Flo and Cindy are yet another side effect of the deep seated fan wars amongst various Supremes fan camps. The Andantes are just not as controversial when it comes to their presence on Vandellas, Marvelettes, Velvelettes and 4 Tops recordings.

**Roger Polhill** · 12-24-2011, 05:44 PM

I don`t have a problem with the Andantes vocals fortifying or replacing backgrounds for the star acts. I think of them as sweetening along with strings and horns.The Four Tops sound was certainly enhanced and they enjoyed working with them.The Funk Brothers were the most important aspect, without them the sound was very thin and white.

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Marv-are you sure Diane Earle is on them? I heard that Telma Hopkins was often brought in to.....

I am not sure if diane ross is on them [[ask Valerie Simpson!) I do know that Mary Wilson and Florence Glenda Ballard are on them!

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by carlo

The so called revelations in the first post of this thread have been known by most die-hard fans for years. However, the factoid in the first post about Mary and Flo not being on Stop! is incorrect.

I agree with you, Marv, in regards to "Reflections". I had a discussion with a member of this forum a couple of months ago and we both listened to the isolated background vocals from "Reflections" and Mary is clearly on there. We both heard her.

I wouldn't even dare waste Mary's time by asking silly questions like this when I have my own ears and know all too well what she and Florence sound like. They sounded like angels when they sang harmony and I know when I hear them on recordings.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Marv

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Polhill

I don`t have a problem with the Andantes vocals fortifying or replacing backgrounds for the star acts. I think of them as sweetening along with strings and horns.The Four Tops sound was certainly enhanced and they enjoyed working with them.The Funk Brothers were the most important aspect, without them the sound was very thin and white.

That is exactly what they [[the Andantes) were used for on Motown recordings ......as instrumentation. To augment a sound that the producers were shooting for. Nothing ,more. They are also NOT on all recordings done at Motown.

**jobeterob** · 12-24-2011, 08:25 PM

Very true Smark; it's a lot bigger a deal that the Andantes were Supremes rather than Marvelettes, Vandellas, Velvelettes or 4 Tops. But then, the Supremes were a much bigger act than those groups and their cultural impact was greater. And they also spawned an icon that starred in the movies and was a big success on her own.

I don't see that it makes a lot of difference that the Andantes may have been the Supremes on a lot of the singles; I think Flo's voice was the most enjoyed voice with Diana's for the fans, as popular as Marvin's or Lionel's or Eddie's.

ThisOldHeart is very right - there's some careful wording going on in the booklet. And a very clear understanding that this was going to put some noses out of joint. I got an email the other day from a former SD'er saying maybe now it would be acceptable to post on here saying you couldn't hear Mary or Flo on Stop in the Name of Love or Reflections or You Can't Hurry Love and you wouldn't be accused of treason or diminishing Mary and Flo. But that should never happen anyway.

Brad, why do you say the Supremes aren't on Reflections? I've never seen that said with the authority of someone from Universal behind it.

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Very true Smark; it's a lot bigger a deal that the Andantes were Supremes rather than Marvelettes, Vandellas, Velvelettes or 4 Tops. But then, the Supremes were a much bigger act than those groups and their cultural impact was greater. And they also spawned an icon that starred in the movies and was a big success on her own.

I don't see that it makes a lot of difference that the Andantes may have been the Supremes on a lot of the singles; I think Flo's voice was the most enjoyed voice with Diana's for the fans, as popular as Marvin's or Lionel's or Eddie's.

ThisOldHeart is very right - there's some careful wording going on in the booklet. And a very clear understanding that this was going to put some noses out of joint. I got an email the other day from a former SD'er saying maybe now it would be acceptable to post on here saying you couldn't hear Mary or Flo on Stop in the Name of Love or Reflections or You Can't Hurry Love and you wouldn't be accused of treason or diminishing Mary and Flo. But that should never happen anyway.

Brad, why do you say the Supremes aren't on Reflections? I've never seen that said with the authority of someone from Universal behind it.

The Andantes were never the Supremes. The Andantes were small group of obscure session singers hired and paid by Motown and used as instrumentation on some records. Only here are they even talked about.

**Roger Polhill** · 12-24-2011, 09:43 PM

And so they should be talked about as they with the Funk Brothers were so important to the "sound". I don`t rate DRATS. too highly in the scheme of things as I find Diana`s voice too popy.I do however have all of their recordings and a great many video tracks as a good Motown collector should.To me the Supremes were Diana Ross and background singers whoever they were.Louvain, Marlene and Jackie plus the others should be feted like James, Earl, Benny, Robert and Jack. They all add up to the fabulous Motown Sound.

**marv2** · 12-24-2011, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Polhill

And so they should be talked about as they with the Funk Brothers were so important to the "sound". I don`t rate DRATS. too highly in the scheme of things as I find Diana`s voice too popy.I do however have all of their recordings and a great many video tracks as a good Motown collector should.To me the Supremes were Diana Ross and background singers whoever they were.Louvain, Marlene and Jackie plus the others should be feted like James, Earl, Benny, Robert and Jack. They all add up to the fabulous Motown Sound.

I disagree with your description/definition of the Supremes. The Supremes were Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson and Diana Ross!

They were also Barbara Martin, Jean Terrell, Cindy Birdsong, Lynda Lawrence, Scherrie Payne and Susaye Greene!

**bradsupremes** · 12-24-2011, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Brad, why do you say the Supremes aren't on Reflections? I've never seen that said with the authority of someone from Universal behind it.

I never said that the Supremes were not on "Reflections." Please don't misquote me. All I said was that Florence was not on it. It's very clear when you listen to the track that it is Mary along with someone who is not Florence. I firmly believe it's Marlene Barrow since it is the same voice you hear on "You Can't Hurry Love" and "Misery Makes Its Home In My Heart." Compare the soprano singing on "Reflections" to the soprano singing on "Going Down For The Third Time," "He's All I Got," "I Hear A Symphony," etc. You will notice they are two different singers.

**Roger Polhill** · 12-24-2011, 10:30 PM

Sorry Marv, it`s only my opinion which carries no weight whatsoever only to me.Diana Ross was the lead singer on all the hits.

**thisoldheart** · 12-24-2011, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

I disagree with your description/definition of the Supremes. The Supremes were Florence Ballard, Mary Wilson and Diana Ross!

They were also Barbara Martin, Jean Terrell, Cindy Birdsong, Lynda Lawrence, Scherrie Payne and Scherrie Payne

these women were certainly the face of the supremes through their many incantations, but not necessarily always the voices on the released recordings! still trying my to wrap my head around the notion that who sings on the tracks diminishes these women's importance. they toured, sang live in concert and tv, and were the spokespeople for the group. they worked their tails off. it is no wonder the 24 hour motown machine needed to use an army to get them through their usually hectic schedule!

**jobeterob** · 12-24-2011, 11:25 PM

Brad, you sure know your Supreme voices.

There certainly is a difference between what you hear on the background of Reflections and what you hear on Going Down For The Third Time; and they are side by side on the Singles Collection ~ another reason you want the CD. And yes, Reflections and You Can't Hurry Love sound very different than the voice in the background of Going Down For The Third Time. Florence was definitely there in the later song.

That all makes a great deal of sense and I agree that the Andantes are almost totally unknown outside the fan circle and this all makes little difference to all those people attending Diana's concerts these days and who hear the songs on oldies radio.