Cindy

[skooldem1]

Diana Ross has never sounded white. She may have recorded some dull, middle of the road music, but she never sounded white. In 1964 what exactly did a traditional sounding black voice sound like? We are talking before "black power" in music. What exactly were "white" fans of the music comparing her voice to? Just who were they exposed to on a national level? Ella, Sammy, and any of the other "black" artist back then didn't sing like Mahalia Jackson either. BTW I can think of many singers that can outsing a host of Motown singers, including Mary Wells and Martha Reeves, and people like Dusty Springfield, but its funny that no one ever mentions that when discussing "singers" . Why is that?? Bottom line is, Gordy felt she had the most potential. His company, his decision.

[BayouMotownMan]

Well, this is a touchy subject, but I think it comes down to what was considered commercial at that time. During the time of Diana Ross's ascension, the sweet-voiced female singer with soft tones were popular. Connie Francis, Brenda Lee, Sue Thompson etc. It wasn't until Aretha burst on the scene that the more high octane vocalist slowly began overcoming the previous trend.

It wasn't that Ross was the better vocalist, it was just something about her voice fronting those powerful Funk Bros that gave her that trademark sound. Personally, I never thought Ross sounded as good on stage as she did in the studio. I can't imagine anyone taking Baby Love or My World Is Empty to the top the way Ross did. Later, she became more confident as a singer and gave stronger performances on Love Is Here and Love Child. I feel Ross was in her prime vocally from 67-71. After she did Billie Holiday her voice just didn't have the same tones to me and personally I don't like a lot of her solo stuff...especially when disco took over.

[detmotownguy]

Hi Marv:
Come on Marv, you grew up in Detroit too lol!!!! You stated, "I never knew until the internet age that there were people that were so hardcore over the Supremes or Diana Ross". This discussion will continue till the end of time! Although Mary asked to leave her and Diane out of petty talk, it just ain't going to happen!

This thread should have been killed as soon as it morphed away from Blueskies ORIGINAL question of, "Does anyone know when Cindy was chosen to replace Florence in The Supremes....was she selected on 'looks' and availability only....or, what she sounded like vocally played into it? I'm wondering if they even knew what she sounded like [[did she audition?) or they weren't particularly interested in her voice? Just wondering". Hell, poor Miss Cindy's name is barely mentioned since the thread started! And Blueskies question was an honest question and not like some whose goal is to instigate trouble between the MW and DR fans.

I will try to email you tonight.

[1382hitsville]

Will this be the final battle between Supremes fans? Most post are well written, well argumented. But my guess is, 10 years on, we will still talk about this...

Isn't that actually a great accomplishment? 50 years ago, 3 girls, 18 hours a day working...and we still discuss them.

Why not be thankfull of all they have given to us?

[Roberta75]

Will this be the final battle between Supremes fans? Most post are well written, well argumented. But my guess is, 10 years on, we will still talk about this...

Isn't that actually a great accomplishment? 50 years ago, 3 girls, 18 hours a day working...and we still discuss them.

Why not be thankfull of all they have given to us?

Isn't that the truth 1382hitsville.

There seems to one one or two here who bash Diana and Mary on a daily basis but the majority here love and respect all Supremes.

Best to you.

Roberta

[marv2]

Hi Marv:
Come on Marv, you grew up in Detroit too lol!!!! You stated, "I never knew until the internet age that there were people that were so hardcore over the Supremes or Diana Ross". This discussion will continue till the end of time! Although Mary asked to leave her and Diane out of petty talk, it just ain't going to happen!

This thread should have been killed as soon as it morphed away from Blueskies ORIGINAL question of, "Does anyone know when Cindy was chosen to replace Florence in The Supremes....was she selected on 'looks' and availability only....or, what she sounded like vocally played into it? I'm wondering if they even knew what she sounded like [[did she audition?) or they weren't particularly interested in her voice? Just wondering". Hell, poor Miss Cindy's name is barely mentioned since the thread started! And Blueskies question was an honest question and not like some whose goal is to instigate trouble between the MW and DR fans.

I will try to email you tonight.

Yeah, but Detroiters were real about things and not manic like some of these guys that start trouble all day about trivial things. Yes email me.

[marv2]

Isn't that the truth 1382hitsville.

There seems to one one or two here who bash Diana and Mary on a daily basis but the majority here love and respect all Supremes.

Best to you.

Roberta

The only bashing I see is that of you and your buddies towards other members here like me. Don't even try it. Remember I know why you are here!

[blueskies]

Hi Marv:
Come on Marv, you grew up in Detroit too lol!!!! You stated, "I never knew until the internet age that there were people that were so hardcore over the Supremes or Diana Ross". This discussion will continue till the end of time! Although Mary asked to leave her and Diane out of petty talk, it just ain't going to happen!

This thread should have been killed as soon as it morphed away from Blueskies ORIGINAL question of, "Does anyone know when Cindy was chosen to replace Florence in The Supremes....was she selected on 'looks' and availability only....or, what she sounded like vocally played into it? I'm wondering if they even knew what she sounded like [[did she audition?) or they weren't particularly interested in her voice? Just wondering". Hell, poor Miss Cindy's name is barely mentioned since the thread started! And Blueskies question was an honest question and not like some whose goal is to instigate trouble between the MW and DR fans.

I will try to email you tonight.

Thank you demotownguy! As soon as the thread went south, I regretted posting it. I sincerely appreciated those who contributed to the original question. Thank you, again.

[marv2]

Thank you demotownguy! As soon as the thread went south, I regretted posting it. I sincerely appreciated those who contributed to the original question. Thank you, again.

Blueskies it didn't have to [[go south) but whenever you get these "experts" that weren't even anywhere near Detroit when these events occurred start in with their versions of things.......you're going to have a problem.

To the original question, I sincerely believe the overriding factor that won Cindy the job of becoming a Supreme was her perceived resemblance to Florence Ballard and not her voice. It did help that she was an experienced entertainer and singer, but it was not the deciding factor.

[Roberta75]

The only bashing I see is that of you and your buddies towards other members here like me. Don't even try it. Remember I know why you are here!

Oh please stop playing the victim marv2. It's very undignified and most of us see right through your charade.

[marv2]

Oh please stop playing the victim marv2. It's very undignified and most of us see right through your charade.

Okay Roberta Jon! You've been clocked a while ago. Now do you want to keep it up and get into trouble? Your call man.

[Roberta75]

Okay Roberta Jon! You've been clocked a while ago. Now do you want to keep it up and get into trouble? Your call man.

No idea what you are talking about but you've been clocked longer than me marv2. Wanna put me on ignore and I'll do the same to you?

[marv2]

No idea what you are talking about but you've been clocked longer than me marv2. Wanna put me on ignore and I'll do the same to you?

Of course you do man. You are what they call a ringer. You've been banned from here several times and keep coming back to start more crap under new aliases and trumped up personas. Do you want to keep fooling with me?

[Roberta75]

Of course you do man. You are what they call a ringer. You've been banned from here several times and keep coming back to start more crap under new aliases and trumped up personas. Do you want to keep fooling with me?

I have never ever been banned from here. See, there you go with your false accusations and untruths. I have no interest in fooling with you and if you think I'm going to engage you in a petty schoolgirl argument until Ralph zaps the thread you are very much mistaken. Grow up and stop the attacks please.

[robbert]

BayouMotownMan : "Diana started talking to Berry about Cindy in mid to late 1966."
Marv: "So Diane was trying to get rid of Flo as early as 1966?"

The linguistic difference between the verbs 'to talk' [[about Cindy) and 'to get rid of' [[Flo).

This is what the stupid discussion above is all about. One must be mental to take part in such futility.

I'm out of here, AGAIN!

[marv2]

I have never ever been banned from here. See, there you go with your false accusations and untruths. I have no interest in fooling with you and if you think I'm going to engage you in a petty schoolgirl argument until Ralph zaps the thread you are very much mistaken. Grow up and stop the attacks please.

I'm not atacking anyone. I am just stating a fact. Last count, you have been removed 3 times from the old forum to now. I am fully grown, trust me. I'd never be confused for a schoolgirl. It's up to you if this continues.

[Roberta75]

I'm not atacking anyone. I am just stating a fact. Last count, you have been removed 3 times from the old forum to now. I am fully grown, trust me. I'd never be confused for a schoolgirl. It's up to you if this continues.

I have never been removed from this forum. I refuse to indulge you any further. You reek havoc wherever you go and your youtube comments are hateful homophobic disgusting and riddled with threats of violence. You need to get a hold of yourself. There are kids killing themselves everyday because of bullying and homophobia. Think about that before you post another potentially dangerous and irresponsible comment on youtube.

[marv2]

I have never been removed from this forum. I refuse to indulge you any further. You reek havoc wherever you go and your youtube comments are hateful homophobic disgusting and riddled with threats of violence. You need to get a hold of yourself. There are kids killing themselves everyday because of bullying and homophobia. Think about that before you post another potentially dangerous and irresponsible comment on youtube.

Ok Jon! Do yourself a favor.......

[cleoharvey]

Very good post Soulballad. I have been stunned by the vitriol from fans about the Supremes all over the internet. One thing this shows is the impact that these ladies made. There is one person who peruses Youtube to find Mary Wilson videos and then posts some absolutely horrible comments. When you read one, you say to yourself "Okay that is that person's opinion and move on." But when you read 10-15 nasty comments from the same person it gets old, especially about such a lovely person.

[Roberta75]

Very good post Soulballad. I have been stunned by the vitriol from fans about the Supremes all over the internet. One thing this shows is the impact that these ladies made. There is one person who peruses Youtube to find Mary Wilson videos and then posts some absolutely horrible comments. When you read one, you say to yourself "Okay that is that person's opinion and move on." But when you read 10-15 nasty comments from the same person it gets old, especially about such a lovely person.

Some of the Diana Ross and Mary Wilson youtube clips are rife with hateful horrible comments. It's best to watch the video and not read the disgusting comments. I stopped reading them as they upset me terribly.

Best to you.

Roberta

[dianesfan_1965]

Very good post Soulballad. I have been stunned by the vitriol from fans about the Supremes all over the internet. One thing this shows is the impact that these ladies made. There is one person who peruses Youtube to find Mary Wilson videos and then posts some absolutely horrible comments. When you read one, you say to yourself "Okay that is that person's opinion and move on." But when you read 10-15 nasty comments from the same person it gets old, especially about such a lovely person.

Yeah there's a bunch of nut jobs over there. Some freak named TWA or something like that is always fighting with Big Bear Lake. They both need to be locked up.

[rod_rick]

It was not my intention to pit one singer over the other, if that's what I did, I apologize, not into that at all.

[Roberta75]

It was not my intention to pit one singer over the other, if that's what I did, I apologize, not into that at all.

You have no reason to apologize my dear rod_rick.

Best to you.

Roberta

[juicefree20]

ejluther,

Thank you. As for Flo's CD, I really wanted to love it. When an artist I really like comes out with music, I twist myself into knots trying to love everything about it. When I was younger, I wasn't always able to be unbiased about things like that. Growing up, my favorite singer was James Brown & I was a James Brown fanatic. Ill never forget when he came out with the song World in 1969. And though you couldn't really dance to it with all of its dramatic stop-start tempo changes, the truth is that it simply wasn't one of his better efforts & frankly, you never see that song appear on any of his compilations.

But that didn't stop me from brain-washing myself into loving it because hey, it was James Brown, my MAIN man!

The same thing played itself out in the Disco years when I tried to convince myself that evey song recorded by El Coco was great on the strength of the fact that I loved Let's Get It together. Eventually I came to understand that it was alright for me not to like every song made by James Brown, Sam Cooke or any other artist whom I admired.

In fact, it appears to me as though only the most rabid fans of The Supremes honestly believe that they're in love with a group who's never made a bad record, an idea that makes me laugh while considering such a thing.

Jackie Wilson made a ton of songs that I have absolutely no use for, the same for Sam Cooke. In their early years, The O'Jays, The Isley Brothers [[especially The Isley Brothers), The Whispers, hell fill in the blank, have made records that just don't make it. I remember speaking with a couple of The Dells about their first single, Darling I Know & you could hear the groans of pain at the mere mention of the song. And they had no problem saying that they would've loved to have a do-over on that one. And I'm really going to commit some serious Soul blasphemy here & say that James Brown made a whole lot of songs that sucked big time & sometimes that organ playing...WHEW!!!

The point is that there's nothing wrong with admitting that your favorite singer didn't hit a homerun everytime at bat. Hell, sometimes they swing & miss or hit a little pop-up to the catcher. But that fact doesn't diminish their greatness in my eyes, nor does it make me appreciate their music any less. It's no personal slight to say that of hundreds of songs that Sam, Jackie or James recorded that there's roughly 1/4 recorded of each that I absolutely dislike.

But it seems to be the case with some Supremes fans that if someone so much as suggests that they didn't like a glissando on the 3rd noted or bar 4 of whatever song, youve committed a crime far worse than had you simply raped the family dog, molested the town virgin, then slapped your mama in the head. To this type of fans, of all of the great artists whom had put their voices on vinyl, shellac or wax cylinder, they & they alone are the only group whom has NEVER hit a bad note & has NEVER made a record which was less than spectacular.

How can one ever hope to reason with, much less make sense with anyone possessing such logic?

It's cool to be a fan, but a fanatic...not so much.

[juicefree20]

Roberta,

Thank you.

Soulballad,

Within the parameters of this conversation I don't see it so much as pitting one lady against the other, but rather trying to make sense of the differences which led to decisions being made as they were. In order to come up with a vocal blend which is sellable, one has to take into account all of the things which we are discussing because when all is said & done, isn't that was a record company trying to do...to understand what makes people buy records & to give the buyers the sound that they want to hear?

The various vocal qualities are a part of what they consider & I feel fairly safe in guaranteeing you that had Berry Gordy had Big Mama Thornton belting out Where Did Our Love Go instead of Diana Ross, it may have sold R&B, but The Supremes & Motown would've gotten no closer to those supper clubs than I am today.

I believe that pitting one against the other is when you base opinions on personalities & whom screwed over whom. But when were discussing the vocal qualities of the ladies & what made them work as well as what might not have worked so well & why certain decisions were made, that's a much fairer conversation than the ones which deal in conspiracy theories & dogging folks for what happened in 1964, 1967 or 1986 for that matter.

I guess that everyone one will have a favorite & that is personal & subjective. But I don't view discussing their individual vocal qualities as pitting one against the other, but more as trying to make an intelligent guesstimation as to why certain decisions were made within the group in light of the mores of that particular era.

[juicefree20]

Rick,

Indeed there is a tremendous difference between the two & I'm with you 1000% as regards your right to speak up if your words are being twisted. I would do exactly the same thing & probably with a lot less restraint than you. But what I will ask you to do is to re-read the original question posed by Blueskies, then re-read your response & see how your response could read, because it seems to be open to interpretation or even misconstrued by anyone left to their own devices.

Personally, as we already know the history about what happened those 44 years ago, I saw no reason to comment on what you wrote because it happened 44 years ago & truthfully, it never affected me in such a manner that I would be worked up over something like that. But I'll admit that when I read your response to the original question, I wondered exactly what were they discussing about Cindy & why.

With that said, I also understand that you were simply answering a question & didn't say that with the intent of opening a door for anyone to take a shot at anyone else.

sigh...

[dianesfan_1965]

ejluther,

Thank you. As for Flo's CD, I really wanted to love it.

In fact, it appears to me as though only the most rabid fans of The Supremes honestly believe that they're in love with a group who's never made a bad record, an idea that makes me laugh while considering such a thing.

I hear that Jucie. When I finally heard that CD from Florence I was TRYING to like it. Love the woman. She seemed like a real kick ass dame and funny as can be. But that record was not good.

As for songs the Supremes did than stank worse than a batch of clams sitting in the hot sun, there were PLENTY. Back in the 60's and early 70's it seemed that albums were just two hit singles and rest filler. Which is probably why I never bought any of the Supremes albums unless they were a greatest hits set. I will say that I did like about 50% of the songs on the "Right On" album. Ross didn't put out a good complete album until "The Boss" the rest were a hit single or two mixed in a crap salad.

[juicefree20]

Rod_Rick

Why are you apologizing? I don't see where you said anything wrong, nor did you pit one person against the other. All that you did was to offer your opinion about how you felt the situation & actually, you spoke more about the way that the ladies were produced & you were 1000% correct about that because as we learned in each of these cases, the production was the difference between tremendous success & moving on to the next phase of one's life.

Even a seasoned record pro like Jerry Wexler admitted this when while discussing Mary Wells, "We couldn't do anything with her, we didn't have Smokey Robinson".

That's a hell of an admission for a guy like Jerry Wexler to make when he's saying that not even he & his staff of writers could figure out an effective way to arrange for Mary's voice.

Not many men would've admitted such a thing & that only serves to underscore the very points which you made.

You have nothing to apologize about.

[BayouMotownMan]

Thank you Juice, and I did re-read it. Only ONE person, the usual one, twisted it and turned into something ugly about Diana Ross. Clueless as always.

Actually, as has already been stated by Diana, when the problems with Flo began it occured to Gordy that illness could strike either Mary or Flo. It was the company's decision that if Diana was ill there would be no performance. I don't necessarily agree with that but Motown was protective of the famous dollar-generating sound of the Supremes. Therefore, usually an Andante was on call for either Mary or Flo. I don't believe that Mary ever missed a performance.

What most people don't know is that when the Supremes opened at the Copa in 1965, Gladys Horton told me that on the second night Diana was so hoarse that Flo did do a large part of the leads. I doubted this, but later when I asked Katherine Anderson about it, she remembered it that way also. I think it was a situation where Jules Podell was adamant that the show go on so Gordy relented. I do believe this to be a factual event.

[detmotownguy]

Marv clean up in in box ok!

[juicefree20]

Dianesfan,

I absolutely loved Flo & always had a great deal of empathy for her. At heart, I'm for the underdog & always want to see them succeed against tremendous odds.

For my part, I was just a little too young to have been caught up in their drama. I was 7 when Flo left the group & at the age of 7, I was worried more about playing Cowboys & Indians & looking up my teacher's skirt, than I was about what was happening with a group of women whom I didn't really know. To be perfectly honest about it, at that point I was more concerned about James Brown or family friend Roddie Joy having a hit than I was about The Supremes.

As a young boy growing up in Brooklyn, The Supremes were a girl group & simply didn't resonate with me in that manner. I liked them because they were cute, they had flair & they were BAD! But I never got caught up in the glamour & glitz & actually hated that kind of pomp & circumstance because I couldn't relate to it. While I could admire their for their beautiful gowns, I never thought in terms of my wearing their gowns. They represented something totally different to me than they did & do to their most rabid of fans. To me as a kid during their heyday, they were girls that a little fella could dream about hugging & I was proud of what they accomplished because back then, they had reached a level of fame & success that precious few of those whom looked like me did. Then again, there were equally gorgeous ladies to feel that way about back then so I never fixated on them.

While I loved Motown & just about all of their stars [[The Four Tops, Temptations & Marvin were my favorites), simply put, they weren't my end-all & be-all. I loved the music coming out of Atlantic, Brunswick & Stax just as much as I loved Motown. I also loved the music coming out of 100 other small labels whom could barely keep their doors open.

If the music touched me, it touched me & whether in was recorded by the huge star, or by a few of the smaller satellites, I loved it all the same. Which is why for as much as I may love the stars whom have gotten their acclaim, it's the lesser-known artists like Alicia Myers, The Fuzz, The Younghearts or Tomorrow's Promise whom resonate within me the most.

So yes, I wanted to love Flo's CD. After hearing & reading so many glowing words for decades, I was all set & more than waiting to have my socks knocked off. I kinda liked It Doesn't Matter How I Say It, but truthfully, it sounded like the tempo was moving just a little too fast for her to really dig into it & beyond that, it was clearly an attempt to give her the Motown sound & honestly, not a very good attempt at that. I only like it because it was Flo & only because it was about the best of the bunch, which is a crime.

I could go track-by-track & state illustrate where & why they go astray but I never wanted to do that, so it's a CD that I never offered a review of. In this case, I'd have been writing about an artist whom has long been one of my favorites, purely on the strength of how I believed her to her been, her beauty & also because I've always believed that justifiably or not, she got a raw deal.

And Im perfectly aware that by merely suggesting that the music & production served her badly & that this isn't the best CD since the Second Coming, that some will regard my words as heresy & somehow twist that into me "hating" on her. If so, so be it. I'm not going to make an idiot of myself by trying to suggest that this material is up to par with that which she recorded with Motown, or any other of 50 labels whom damn well could've done a better job in producing Flo. From where I sit, Helen Keller could've come up with better production than this in braille & if anyone believes that this music failed because DJs were payed not to play it, then I have several of the finest in N.Y. bridges & some swamp land near Gateway that I'm more than willing to sell to anyone who buys into that particular theory.

Understand, this is not to be misconstrued as a slam of Florence's voice, but rather upon the production values [[or lack thereof) & absolute lack of direction, which undermined any hope for success. Listen to her vocals on Buttered Popcorn & you hear a voice there. You hear a voice that you can tell is holding back, but given a chance, you can tell that this is a woman whom can BLOW!

The best way that I can describe it is that it sounds to me as though they were trying so hard to copy her success with The Supremes, that in the process Florence Ballard got lost in their quest to arrange for her & have her phrase as though she were Diana Ross. If you don't think so, just take a listen to a song like Goin' Out Of My Head & listen to how they have her phrasing. Even worse listen to the backing vocals, especially at the fade. The backing vocals are stiff & stilted & they have a metronic quality to them, much akin to the sound that wind-up soldier make as the spring winds down. Sadly, they have Flo sounding too restrained & too well-mannered. This is a song of angst, the protagonist has his loved one at wit's end, which is something that is a very highly emotional-charged situation.

But you don't hear any of that pain, nor do you hear that emotion. For the way they arranged this song, she could've been singing about reading the Sunday paper & it would've had the same impact. There's just a total disconnect between the subject matter & the performance.

None of this was on Flo, it's on the producer/arranger. And no, this is not pitting one against the other, but is simply an analysis as to, conspiracy theories aside, what really went into these decisions, as well as what went wrong & how perhaps, with a few tweks here & there, history as we know it could've been so much different.

Which after the passing of more than 40 years, I guess the point is moot.

[marv2]

Marv clean up in in box ok!

Oh I am sorry. I've gotten a lot emails this week. Check in 5 mins.

[dianesfan_1965]

You crack me up Juice! Lookin up your teacher's skirt!!! You crazy kid!!!!

[marv2]

Dianesfan,

I absolutely loved Flo & always had a great deal of empathy for her. At heart, I'm for the underdog & always want to see them succeed against tremendous odds.

For my part, I was just a little too young to have been caught up in their drama. I was 7 when Flo left the group & at the age of 7, I was worried more about playing Cowboys & Indians & looking up my teacher's skirt, than I was about what was happening with a group of women whom I didn't really know. To be perfectly honest about it, at that point I was more concerned about James Brown or family friend Roddie Joy having a hit than I was about The Supremes.

As a young boy growing up in Brooklyn, The Supremes were a girl group & simply didn't resonate with me in that manner. I liked them because they were cute, they had flair & they were BAD! But I never got caught up in the glamour & glitz & actually hated that kind of pomp & circumstance because I couldn't relate to it. While I could admire their for their beautiful gowns, I never thought in terms of my wearing their gowns. They represented something totally different to me than they did & do to their most rabid of fans. To me as a kid during their heyday, they were girls that a little fella could dream about hugging & I was proud of what they accomplished because back then, they had reached a level of fame & success that precious few of those whom looked like me did. Then again, there were equally gorgeous ladies to feel that way about back then so I never fixated on them.

While I loved Motown & just about all of their stars [[The Four Tops, Temptations & Marvin were my favorites), simply put, they weren't my end-all & be-all. I loved the music coming out of Atlantic, Brunswick & Stax just as much as I loved Motown. I also loved the music coming out of 100 other small labels whom could barely keep their doors open.

If the music touched me, it touched me & whether in was recorded by the huge star, or by a few of the smaller satellites, I loved it all the same. Which is why for as much as I may love the stars whom have gotten their acclaim, it's the lesser-known artists like Alicia Myers, The Fuzz, The Younghearts or Tomorrow's Promise whom resonate within me the most.

So yes, I wanted to love Flo's CD. After hearing & reading so many glowing words for decades, I was all set & more than waiting to have my socks knocked off. I kinda liked It Doesn't Matter How I Say It, but truthfully, it sounded like the tempo was moving just a little too fast for her to really dig into it & beyond that, it was clearly an attempt to give her the Motown sound & honestly, not a very good attempt at that. I only like it because it was Flo & only because it was about the best of the bunch, which is a crime.

I could go track-by-track & state illustrate where & why they go astray but I never wanted to do that, so it's a CD that I never offered a review of. In this case, I'd have been writing about an artist whom has long been one of my favorites, purely on the strength of how I believed her to her been, her beauty & also because I've always believed that justifiably or not, she got a raw deal.

And Im perfectly aware that by merely suggesting that the music & production served her badly & that this isn't the best CD since the Second Coming, that some will regard my words as heresy & somehow twist that into me "hating" on her. If so, so be it. I'm not going to make an idiot of myself by trying to suggest that this material is up to par with that which she recorded with Motown, or any other of 50 labels whom damn well could've done a better job in producing Flo. From where I sit, Helen Keller could've come up with better production than this in braille & if anyone believes that this music failed because DJs were payed not to play it, then I have several of the finest in N.Y. bridges & some swamp land near Gateway that I'm more than willing to sell to anyone who buys into that particular theory.

Understand, this is not to be misconstrued as a slam of Florence's voice, but rather upon the production values [[or lack thereof) & absolute lack of direction, which undermined any hope for success. Listen to her vocals on Buttered Popcorn & you hear a voice there. You hear a voice that you can tell is holding back, but given a chance, you can tell that this is a woman whom can BLOW!

The best way that I can describe it is that it sounds to me as though they were trying so hard to copy her success with The Supremes, that in the process Florence Ballard got lost in their quest to arrange for her & have her phrase as though she were Diana Ross. If you don't think so, just take a listen to a song like Goin' Out Of My Head & listen to how they have her phrasing. Even worse listen to the backing vocals, especially at the fade. The backing vocals are stiff & stilted & they have a metronic quality to them, much akin to the sound that wind-up soldier make as the spring winds down. Sadly, they have Flo sounding too restrained & too well-mannered. This is a song of angst, the protagonist has his loved one at wit's end, which is something that is a very highly emotional-charged situation.

But you don't hear any of that pain, nor do you hear that emotion. For the way they arranged this song, she could've been singing about reading the Sunday paper & it would've had the same impact. There's just a total disconnect between the subject matter & the performance.

None of this was on Flo, it's on the producer/arranger. And no, this is not pitting one against the other, but is simply an analysis as to, conspiracy theories aside, what really went into these decisions, as well as what went wrong & how perhaps, with a few tweks here & there, history as we know it could've been so much different.

Which after the passing of more than 40 years, I guess the point is moot.

Juice, reading this post is like it was a monologue of my own life and experiences in a way. We grew up at the exact same time, same age etc,etc and I can see we saw things similarly! I was 7 when Florence Ballard left the Supremes but it did not cause me to think anything! In those days I was playing Little League, collecting comic books and baseball cards [[Tigers RULE!). The Supremes would come on TV and we'd all watch. They sure were purty and sexy [[even though I may not have known what the word meant at the time, but we city kids were a bit advanced.....hehehehe..) Anyway, the music was good. My parents bought a lot of it and it was always on the radio. Every now and then we'd see a "star" in a store or catch a group like the Marvelettes singing in concert at a local park.

None of the things that are discussed today on forums like this were ever even imagined back in those days. Maybe it was for the better?

[juicefree20]

Rick,

Anytime at all.

I guess what concerns me is that when reading through all of this, the message that Im receiving is that a lot of what's being said in this thread is not so much about anything which has been said in this thread, but rather things which have been written on youtube. Unfortunately, what happens over there usually finds its way back here.

Personally, I have no axes to grind with anyone here. There's enough to have to deal with in a world as crazy as his. Times are hard, there's a lot of turmoil going on & innocent children & mothers are being shot & even killed in the streets & that doesn't take into consideration that I'm sure that we all have to deal with personal or family issues in the real world, I know that I do. I'm sure that you can appreciate how constant near wars over things wwith are relatively trivial as this, absolutely puzzles me.

For my part, I'm merely playing devil's advocate & am doing so for a few reasons. For one thing, while having had a few dust-ups of my own here, I do care about this forum. Over a space of 8 years, there are people here whom I've grown to truly care about & I've never met most of them in person. We've prayed for one another when things were rough, we've smiled together, laughed together & have educated one another along the way. To my knowledge, there are few forums which have the scope of this one when it comes to knowledge of music. Many are somewhat specialist sites which focus on specific genres, but SDF touches base on various genres & perhaps with the exclusion of Country music, there are people here who can speak fluently on those genres.

I'm also coming from a perspective of a person whom has seen situations such as this spiral quickly out of control. Some of these disputes have been going on for so long & have become so personal & vicious that I believe there's going to come a day when it reaches a flashpoint & we're going to be reading about someone in the news.

I realize that many people believe that since this is the internet there's a bit of a safety net built in & I would suggest that that is deceptive. While many people believe that they may never be in the presence of one another, can anyone truly say that with any degree of certainty? It's a small world, a very small world & one never knows what life has in store for them, much less what roads life will lead them down. For example, when I came to SDF, I never dreamed about becoming a photographer & I certainly never dreamed that I would one day meet just about every musical hero of my childhood,much less converse with them at shows or on the phone. But that's exactly what happened because of SDF, which is why I have no problem sending in a donation every month. I've never mentioned it & not even Ralph knows whose name I donate in, but I do out of appreciation not only because of how it's changed my life, but for the information which its freely provided to all of us for 10 years now.

I say all of this because I've seen several people whom I've had disputes with & folks whom had outright lied on me. They knew it & I knew it but some people don't seem to understand that their words can have serious consequences & brush it off like it's a joke. And if I were a different kind of person, they'd have come to know exactly what consequences their words could've had. Out here in the real world, people die every day over the kind of things that always occur in these types of threads. This stuff simply gets way too personal, way too nasty & seriously, people lose their lives for much less than this.

What I'm saying is that in this world there are times when trouble just can't be avoided because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you simply have no other choice. But this level of dislike constantly popping up over THIS, it's just something that I just don't understand. The only reason why I'm even saying anything at all is because I keep hoping that somehow, someway, someday [[absolutely no pun intended), that all involved will take a look at all of this, see how unnecessary & futile it is & that their better self will prevail & kill these arguments amongst adults, which we wouldn't tolerate from children.

Perchance to dream....

[marv2]

You crack me up Juice! Lookin up your teacher's skirt!!! You crazy kid!!!!

Heck, I can remember falling down on purpose so that my 1st Grade Teacher, Miss Harste would have to pick me up and hold me close to her tight Mohair sweater.........hehehehehehehe.........hehehehe!

[juicefree20]

Yeah Diane, I was a dirty old kid.

When I was in elementary school, we had cause to go to the school library. And they used to have those huge wooden ladders that rolled from one side of the bookcase to the other. Back then, my thing was reading about Baseball. If there was anything that I loved more than music at that age, it was Baseball. While I hadn't figured out their numbering system, I was always more than a little happy whenever I realized that the teacher was about to ascend that ladder.

Talk about a stairway to heaven!

[Roberta75]

Rick,

Anytime at all.

I guess what concerns me is that when reading through all of this, the message that Im receiving is that a lot of what's being said in this thread is not so much about anything which has been said in this thread, but rather things which have been written on youtube. Unfortunately, what happens over there usually finds its way back here.

Personally, I have no axes to grind with anyone here. There's enough to have to deal with in a world as crazy as his. Times are hard, there's a lot of turmoil going on & innocent children & mothers are being shot & even killed in the streets & that doesn't take into consideration that I'm sure that we all have to deal with personal or family issues in the real world, I know that I do. I'm sure that you can appreciate how constant near wars over things wwith are relatively trivial as this, absolutely puzzles me.

For my part, I'm merely playing devil's advocate & am doing so for a few reasons. For one thing, while having had a few dust-ups of my own here, I do care about this forum. Over a space of 8 years, there are people here whom I've grown to truly care about & I've never met most of them in person. We've prayed for one another when things were rough, we've smiled together, laughed together & have educated one another along the way. To my knowledge, there are few forums which have the scope of this one when it comes to knowledge of music. Many are somewhat specialist sites which focus on specific genres, but SDF touches base on various genres & perhaps with the exclusion of Country music, there are people here who can speak fluently on those genres.

I'm also coming from a perspective of a person whom has seen situations such as this spiral quickly out of control. Some of these disputes have been going on for so long & have become so personal & vicious that I believe there's going to come a day when it reaches a flashpoint & we're going to be reading about someone in the news.

I realize that many people believe that since this is the internet there's a bit of a safety net built in & I would suggest that that is deceptive. While many people believe that they may never be in the presence of one another, can anyone truly say that with any degree of certainty? It's a small world, a very small world & one never knows what life has in store for them, much less what roads life will lead them down. For example, when I came to SDF, I never dreamed about becoming a photographer & I certainly never dreamed that I would one day meet just about every musical hero of my childhood,much less converse with them at shows or on the phone. But that's exactly what happened because of SDF, which is why I have no problem sending in a donation every month. I've never mentioned it & not even Ralph knows whose name I donate in, but I do out of appreciation not only because of how it's changed my life, but for the information which its freely provided to all of us for 10 years now.

I say all of this because I've seen several people whom I've had disputes with & folks whom had outright lied on me. They knew it & I knew it but some people don't seem to understand that their words can have serious consequences & brush it off like it's a joke. And if I were a different kind of person, they'd have come to know exactly what consequences their words could've had. Out here in the real world, people die every day over the kind of things that always occur in these types of threads. This stuff simply gets way too personal, way too nasty & seriously, people lose their lives for much less than this.

What I'm saying is that in this world there are times when trouble just can't be avoided because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you simply have no other choice. But this level of dislike constantly popping up over THIS, it's just something that I just don't understand. The only reason why I'm even saying anything at all is because I keep hoping that somehow, someway, someday [[absolutely no pun intended), that all involved will take a look at all of this, see how unnecessary & futile it is & that their better self will prevail & kill these arguments amongst adults, which we wouldn't tolerate from children.

Perchance to dream....

I am literally standing up applauding you sir. You are a wise man Juice and a good man. Thank you for your wonderful words of wisdom and amazing insight.

May God bless you in every area of your life.

With deep appreciation and respect.

Roberta

[Roberta75]

Yeah Diane, I was a dirty old kid.

When I was in elementary school, we had cause to go to the school library. And they used to have those huge wooden ladders that rolled from one side of the bookcase to the other. Back then, my thing was reading about Baseball. If there was anything that I loved more than music at that age, it was Baseball. While I hadn't figured out their numbering system, I was always more than a little happy whenever I realized that the teacher was about to ascend that ladder.

Talk about a stairway to heaven!

You are a very naughty but awfully nice [[smile) boy Juice

[juicefree20]

Marv,

Yeah, there's something about growing up in a big city that opens your eyes real fast. On the other hand, I sure remember that when some of the girls from other regions came to visit during Summer vacation, they weren't exactly slouches!

I think that the internet can be a blessing & in the wrong hands, it's definitely a curse. Right here on SDF, we communicate with like-minded people whom live thousands of miles away, as well as from other countries. The information available is mind-boggling. Unfortunately, just as with a speak, a knife or a gun, when in the wrong hands it can be dangerous. Given the habit of nonsense & attacks that I've seen written about people on various internet forums, I'm beginning to think that everyone should be verified & registered before being able to access it.

There's a danger of losing a lot of important information, but there are also far too many people having their id's stolen, being stalked, companies putting people's personal & private information on the internet without their knowledge nor their consent. People are being killed over Facebook postings & though it's a slippery slope, it's clear that something has to be done, if only to protect the innocent.

Other than that, we live in a society which is far too voyeuristic & too wrapped up in bullshit & things which really are none of their business. Why I should care about a housewife from Atlanta or New York or a Snooki, I really don't know. And why a guy with a camera feels that I need to know what the vagina of Britney spears looks like, I don't know.But I do know thatif more people worried more about their own lives rather than they do about Snooki's, Wendy's or that of their favorite entertainer, the world might just be a bit better of a place to live in.

In other words, I have no answers!

[juicefree20]

Roberta,

Thank you. I'm wise about some things & not quite as wise about others. As for any wisdom & insight, when I consider my own dust-ups here, I'm little different than a guy who's smart enough to build a bomb, but sometimes lacks the common sense to know how to push the button that detonates it.

All that I am is a guy who understands that years of arguing hasn't solved a thing & wonders why it keeps reoccurring between folks who know that their arguing isn't going to change even one thing that happened 44 years ago.

I'm far from a genius, but just a little wiser than some may believe, even when I don't let on that I am

[Roberta75]

Roberta,

Thank you. I'm wise about some things & not quite as wise about others. As for any wisdom & insight, when I consider my own dust-ups here, I'm little different than a guy who's smart enough to build a bomb, but sometimes lacks the common sense to know how to push the button that detonates it.

All that I am is a guy who understands that years of arguing hasn't solved a thing & wonders why it keeps reoccurring between folks who know that their arguing isn't going to change even one thing that happened 44 years ago.

I'm far from a genius, but just a little wiser than some may believe, even when I don't let on that I am

Oh I think you are a very wise fair and lovely man Juice.

Have a lovely evening.

Fondly

Roberta

[marv2]

Yeah Diane, I was a dirty old kid.

When I was in elementary school, we had cause to go to the school library. And they used to have those huge wooden ladders that rolled from one side of the bookcase to the other. Back then, my thing was reading about Baseball. If there was anything that I loved more than music at that age, it was Baseball. While I hadn't figured out their numbering system, I was always more than a little happy whenever I realized that the teacher was about to ascend that ladder.

Talk about a stairway to heaven!

You old dawg you! LOL!!!!!

[marv2]

Marv,

Yeah, there's something about growing up in a big city that opens your eyes real fast. On the other hand, I sure remember that when some of the girls from other regions came to visit during Summer vacation, they weren't exactly slouches!

I think that the internet can be a blessing & in the wrong hands, it's definitely a curse. Right here on SDF, we communicate with like-minded people whom live thousands of miles away, as well as from other countries. The information available is mind-boggling. Unfortunately, just as with a speak, a knife or a gun, when in the wrong hands it can be dangerous. Given the habit of nonsense & attacks that I've seen written about people on various internet forums, I'm beginning to think that everyone should be verified & registered before being able to access it.

There's a danger of losing a lot of important information, but there are also far too many people having their id's stolen, being stalked, companies putting people's personal & private information on the internet without their knowledge nor their consent. People are being killed over Facebook postings & though it's a slippery slope, it's clear that something has to be done, if only to protect the innocent.

Other than that, we live in a society which is far too voyeuristic & too wrapped up in bullshit & things which really are none of their business. Why I should care about a housewife from Atlanta or New York or a Snooki, I really don't know. And why a guy with a camera feels that I need to know what the vagina of Britney spears looks like, I don't know.But I do know thatif more people worried more about their own lives rather than they do about Snooki's, Wendy's or that of their favorite entertainer, the world might just be a bit better of a place to live in.

In other words, I have no answers!

You hit it on the head. I hate reality shows or also known as "the cheapest way to produce programming for the further dumbdowning of America!".

Some people getting behind a keyboard and monitor is just as dangerous as a drunk getting behind the wheel of a car! Both can be disillusioned, believing that they are doing the right thing. Think about it?

Regarding girls from other regions. I can remember those summers where we either went down South or a few Southern girls would come to the city to visit relatives...... oohh those southern girls! LOL!

[marv2]

Marv,

Yeah, there's something about growing up in a big city that opens your eyes real fast. On the other hand, I sure remember that when some of the girls from other regions came to visit during Summer vacation, they weren't exactly slouches!

I think that the internet can be a blessing & in the wrong hands, it's definitely a curse. Right here on SDF, we communicate with like-minded people whom live thousands of miles away, as well as from other countries. The information available is mind-boggling. Unfortunately, just as with a speak, a knife or a gun, when in the wrong hands it can be dangerous. Given the habit of nonsense & attacks that I've seen written about people on various internet forums, I'm beginning to think that everyone should be verified & registered before being able to access it.

There's a danger of losing a lot of important information, but there are also far too many people having their id's stolen, being stalked, companies putting people's personal & private information on the internet without their knowledge nor their consent. People are being killed over Facebook postings & though it's a slippery slope, it's clear that something has to be done, if only to protect the innocent.

Other than that, we live in a society which is far too voyeuristic & too wrapped up in bullshit & things which really are none of their business. Why I should care about a housewife from Atlanta or New York or a Snooki, I really don't know. And why a guy with a camera feels that I need to know what the vagina of Britney spears looks like, I don't know.But I do know thatif more people worried more about their own lives rather than they do about Snooki's, Wendy's or that of their favorite entertainer, the world might just be a bit better of a place to live in.

In other words, I have no answers!

Oh, one other thing. Did you know that "The Situation" made over $ 3 million last year? Wonder why they are people occupying Wall Street? LOL!

[rod_rick]

Thank you Juice, and I did re-read it. Only ONE person, the usual one, twisted it and turned into something ugly about Diana Ross. Clueless as always.

Actually, as has already been stated by Diana, when the problems with Flo began it occured to Gordy that illness could strike either Mary or Flo. It was the company's decision that if Diana was ill there would be no performance. I don't necessarily agree with that but Motown was protective of the famous dollar-generating sound of the Supremes. Therefore, usually an Andante was on call for either Mary or Flo. I don't believe that Mary ever missed a performance.

What most people don't know is that when the Supremes opened at the Copa in 1965, Gladys Horton told me that on the second night Diana was so hoarse that Flo did do a large part of the leads. I doubted this, but later when I asked Katherine Anderson about it, she remembered it that way also. I think it was a situation where Jules Podell was adamant that the show go on so Gordy relented. I do believe this to be a factual event.

Rick
I could believe that. That might also explain why they went in and had Diana double her vocals for the live album, because she does sound a bit hoarse on some of the selection on the Copa lp.

[rod_rick]

Thanks Juice for that response. I try my best to stay out of the PISSING matches around here LOL. BTW Juice you are a fantastic writer.

[BobC]

I try to love everybody.

I am reading Nile Rodger's book right now and it is very interesting.

[juicefree20]

Marv,

This is nothing more than the natural progression from the days when Morton Downey Jr. had his talk show with his in your face" approach. From there, it's only spiraled downward but that seems to be what the people want. I guess that when you become used to eating potted meat, bologna doesn't seem so bad.

[juicefree20]

Rod_Rick,

Thank you for your kind words. What I find to be most ironic is the fact that just about every argument that I've had here was due to sticking up for someone else.

Rather than say much of what I could say about these kinds of situations, I'll pull back my initial response to you & simply add an observation or two which pretty much sums things up for me.

The very thing that cited which led to Marv's banishment was a post that he posted here which was written on another forum. Do I think that what was written elsewhere should've been posted here? No I don't. But that was the reason for his being banned. Not that he, himself wrote was was posted, but rather it was the fact that he brought outside crap HERE that led to people pushing for him to be banned. They slammed him worse for re-posting the message that he received, than they did the person who wrote the nasty message to begin with. And excuses were made for the person who wrote it & I'll simply leave it at that.

I've been checking through the archives & reading through what was going on during the several months that I was away from the forum & what do you think I see?

Mentions of things that were written on yahoo, youtube or wherever. So my question then becomes this...If it was wrong for Marv to post something that someone sent him elsewhere & posting that nasty message was reason for some to call for his banishment, then isn't constantly referring to what he's written elsewhere & constantly dragging that crap here pretty much the exact same thing?

Remember, he wasn't banned because HE wrote the filth that he posted here. He was banned because he POSTED it here & there's a hell of a difference between reposting the words written to you by someone else & writing that filth yourself.

Then too, I recall upon his return here that it was clearly stated that the goal was to incite him to say or do something which would cause him to get himself banned. That was stated in plain view & only ensured that the problems would never cease because they don't want him here because of the various offenses mentioned.

If we wanted to communicate on youtube, we would. Most of us choose to participate HERE. As such, we're not privy to, nor do we particularly care was was said THERE or in any other yahoo group. That's their thing, not most of ours. My point is that if something was done elsewhere, then it should be dealt with elsewhere.

Now I don't know what Marv has written elsewhere because I'm not in the habit of scouring the internet for trouble,nor scratching where it doesn't itch. All that I do know is that if people weren't dragging crap which happens elsewhere onto SDF, then the battles wouldnt be constantly fought here. Their willingness to do so only fuels these fires. I'm not interested about what someone else does in THEIR home, I'm interested in what they do in mine.

It's like living in an apartment building or working on a job. You can't dictate to your boss with whom you work, nor can you had them booted out purely on the strength that you just don't want them there. As long as they aren't violating any rules of your dwelling or workplace, you can't have them booted out for their behavior elsewhere. That is, unless they violate the law or moral codes which leads to their arrest or reflects badly on their employer.

Another way to look at it is this...do you worry whether someone urinates in an alley so long as they're not urinating in the corner of your room, or would you got to that alley with a roll of Bounty, sop up the urine, drag it into your home, then complain about the urine being there & its smell?

What sane person would do that?

And maybe, just maybe, if people weren't looking for trouble, they wouldn't be so quick to find it. And if you WILLINGLY visit the page of someone whom dislikes someone, then read the bad things that you may see written there, while already FULLY armed with the knowledge of what you're likely to find there &/or have ALREADY seen there, then I would ask why you would willingly visit such a place at all?

I don't frequent Ku Klux klan meetings & I dont frequent bars when skin heads are known to hang out, so why would anyone visit Marv's, a person whom they thoroughly despise, yahoo group, youtube page or anywhere else where he resides? I mean they may not be able to control his membership HERE, but they do have a choice as to whether they visit his outside forums or pages.

So the question then becomes, why do so many frequent the page of a guy whom they absolutely abhor? How would they know so much about him & what he writes elsewhere unless they or their friends were there themselves? How would they know his various screen names if they didn't actively seek them, or had friends who did? If they hate a person so much that being around them in a forum offends their sensibilities so much that they have to constantly engage them in arguments & battles, then why would they even seek out such a person, much less waste their energy & time reading anything that such a person would have to say? I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't do that.

It's like going to a strip club, then complaining when a breast pops into your drink. In other words...

It doesn't make sense. Unless they're actively looking for something...like trouble perhaps?

We had & may still have a forumer whom while speaking about the very type of things that Marv does or did, have a page setup where they made/make fun of some of our SDF members & have said some pretty crappy things, to boot. Someone sent me a message showing me where to go & I saw some crap written about Ralph, as well as myself. And though this person & their friends still participated here, I never went crying to Ralph that he should ban this person simply because they didn't write what they wrote HERE, they wrote what they did elsewhere. I'd have been guilty of looking for trouble by willingly visiting their page, when I already knew what I'd find when I got there & that's an absolutely ridiculous thing to do.

Maybe its just me, but I was always told to never scratch where it don't itch. Perhaps some folks like itching.