Supremes or Beatles: Who was better?

[dvdmike]

This is like comparing apples to oranges. They were two completely different entities. The Supremes did not write their own material or play any instruments. Now, The Supremes vs. The Three Degrees or The Andrews Sisters or another top rated female singing group would have been a better comparison.

[Jimi LaLumia]

you're kidding, right?

[StuBass1]

In the interest of discussion/debate...have at it.

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[rovereab]

For me:

Both group produced excellent music
Both groups were style icons.
Both groups were excellent ambassadors for their countries
Both groups were key in opening up the acceptance of their genre of music in each other's countries

And most importantly.....

Both groups have given me, and others for sure, countless hours of enjoyment

So overall for me, neither is better, just great groups!

Eamonn

[kenneth]

I got my hipness from following The Beatles, who were busy following and regurgitating their own version of what was the 1960's, all that I mentioned above and more..[[my friend, the late Gloria Stavers of 16 Magazine, turned them onto quite a few things between 1964-1966 herself)!...groovy//

Jimi, did you really know Gloria Stavers? Someone should write a book about her and 16 and those other magazines. She was really ahead of her time. I remember 16, Tiger Beat, there were others as well. What a pulse she had on youth [[mostly young girls) culture. She really deserves a lot of credit; I doubt she's given much for all she contributed back then.

[soulster]

This is like comparing apples to oranges. They were two completely different entities. The Supremes did not write their own material or play any instruments. Now, The Supremes vs. The Three Degrees or The Andrews Sisters or another top rated female singing group would have been a better comparison.

Spot on! Like I said, this is a silly thread. The two groups do not compare.

[Roberta75]

For me:

Both group produced excellent music
Both groups were style icons.
Both groups were excellent ambassadors for their countries
Both groups were key in opening up the acceptance of their genre of music in each other's countries

And most importantly.....

Both groups have given me, and others for sure, countless hours of enjoyment

So overall for me, neither is better, just great groups!

Eamonn

You just summed it up perfectly sir.

Thank you.

Roberta

[Jimi LaLumia]

Jimi, did you really know Gloria Stavers? Someone should write a book about her and 16 and those other magazines. She was really ahead of her time. I remember 16, Tiger Beat, there were others as well. What a pulse she had on youth [[mostly young girls) culture. She really deserves a lot of credit; I doubt she's given much for all she contributed back then.

Yes, I met her in 1970, wrote a feature about her, and she became a mentoress of sorts to me..
she was brilliant and wonderful, when I used to scrap together 25/35 cents to get 16 as a kid, I never thought that I'd come to actually be friends with her..you should check out the book "Who's Your Fave Rave",which is a 16/Stavers book, while not being an actual biography..

[kenneth]

Yes, I met her in 1970, wrote a feature about her, and she became a mentoress of sorts to me..
she was brilliant and wonderful, when I used to scrap together 25/35 cents to get 16 as a kid, I never thought that I'd come to actually be friends with her..you should check out the book "Who's Your Fave Rave",which is a 16/Stavers book, while not being an actual biography..

That looks like a really fun book. I'm going to try and buy that one. Those old magazines are so fun to look at. Do you have a collection of them? I imagine you do. During the era I remember them, it was usually Mark Lindsay on the covers.

[Laurel]

I liked both groups. They were so much fun and whenever I hear Stop in the Name of Love or I Wanna Hold Your Hand, I remember the good times of being a teenager and having fun.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Gloria Stavers also dropped photos of The Supremes into 16 Magazine frequently[[she told me about the 'mail' she'd get from the South whenever a black face appeared in the magazine), and 16 was the first teen magazine to embrace and feature the Jackson 5 and MJ as teen idols right on the cover alongside The Osmonds and Donnie[[she REALLY got 'mail from the South" in 1970/71/72 over THAT!!!..I heard all about it years later...)

[ajk93]

Always liked this clip. Thought this would be a fine time to post it---

[ejluther]

God, I love that clip - they sound so great together! And Mary's expression on the line "my baby buys me things, you know, he buys me diamond rings..." [[00:44) gets me every time - so perfect!

[johnjeb]

That whole show was the best, from "Back In My Arms Again", "You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Loves Me" and this medley of #1 songs from 1965. The girls singing "Stop!" with Frankie Avalon is a treat.

I have it on VHS tape. I should get it on DVD. Now that we have DVDs of them on Sullivan maybe we can hope for a "Supremes on Hullabaloo" set! That would be nice since those appearances pre-date, for the most part, their Sullivan glamor days, yet they still looked fashionable and exquisite. My first time seeing them was on Hullabaloo in January 1965, they sang a medley of "Where...", "Baby Love", and "Come See...". They also joined Shirley Ellis on "The Name Game" for a quick verse of "Supremes, Supremes, bo Bupremes...".

[marv2]

It would have been great if the Supremes and the Beatles could have recorded something together.

[ejluther]

That whole show was the best, from "Back In My Arms Again", "You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Loves Me" and this medley of #1 songs from 1965. The girls singing "Stop!" with Frankie Avalon is a treat.

I don't think I've ever seen the whole show but I'm going to track it down now for sure...

[captainjames]

The Beatles and The Stones are a better comparison

[bankhousedave]

As usual, I think Juice has nailed a vital point, and it's one that hadn't really been discussed, as far as I'm aware. Berry was kind of trying to propitiate the Sinatra element. He saw his ultimate market as the people John told to rattle their jewelry at the London Palladium. The Beatles had no such desire - or need, in fairness. So they wound up aiming for different things. The Supremes albums I can listen to all through are HDH, Love Child, Rodgers and Hart and I hear A Symphony. We never got The Beatles Sing Stephen Collins Foster.

[soulster]

The Supremes and The Honey Cone, or Emotions, are better comparisons.

[soulster]

As usual, I think Juice has nailed a vital point, and it's one that hadn't really been discussed, as far as I'm aware. Berry was kind of trying to propitiate the Sinatra element. He saw his ultimate market as the people John told to rattle their jewelry at the London Palladium. The Beatles had no such desire - or need, in fairness. So they wound up aiming for different things. The Supremes albums I can listen to all through are HDH, Love Child, Rodgers and Hart and I hear A Symphony. We never got The Beatles Sing Stephen Collins Foster.

I think Gordy was aiming for everyone, not just the White, or upper-crust. And, when 1966 rolled around, and Gordy realized that they were losing record sales to the new sound and aging generation, and worse, the Black base, he allowed a hipper, more socially relevant sound to emerge. "Going To A Go-Go" by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles was among the first, The temptations' "Cloud Nine" the second, and then Diana Ross & The Supremes with "Reflections".

[roger]

I think Gordy was aiming for everyone, not just the White, or upper-crust. And, when 1966 rolled around, and Gordy realized that they were losing record sales to the new sound and aging generation, and worse, the Black base, he allowed a hipper, more socially relevant sound to emerge. "Going To A Go-Go" by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles was among the first, The temptations' "Cloud Nine" the second, and then Diana Ross & The Supremes with "Reflections".

I think your time-line is a bit out Soulster .. "Going To A Go-Go" was at the end of 1965, "Reflections" was late summer 1967 and "Cloud Nine" was at the tail end of 1968.

I'd say that "Reflections" was Motown's first attempt to join in the psychedelic era sounds of 1967 .. it came out whilst "Sergeant Pepper" by THE BEATLES was the number 1 LP around the world. But essentially it is just another tale of lost love along the lines of "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" or "Where Did our Love Go".

I'd say that "Cloud Nine", and "Love Child" were Motown's first real attempts to make "socially relevent" music.

I'd say that "Going to A Go-Go" was an invitation for people to go out and dance!!

Roger

[soulster]

I think your time-line is a bit out Soulster .. "Going To A Go-Go" was at the end of 1965, "Reflections" was late summer 1967 and "Cloud Nine" was at the tail end of 1968.

I wasn't being exact, but the single "Going To A Go-Go" debuted on the Soul chart in January 1, 1966. Obviously, it was recorded in 1965, but I go by i's release date. I am, of course, aware of when the other two songs were out. used 1966 as the starting point of the change.

I'd say that "Reflections" was Motown's first attempt to join in the psychedelic era sounds of 1967 .. it came out whilst "Sergeant Pepper" by THE BEATLES was the number 1 LP around the world. But essentially it is just another tale of lost love along the lines of "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" or "Where Did our Love Go".

Musically, you are correct. In fact, I think you are a bit closer with "Love Is here, and Now You're Gone". "Reflections" was just an extension of that. I remember going trick-or-treating with my sister when "Reflections" was on top of the charts. I do not concern myself with the lyrical content when talking about timelines. I always use the music itself as my reference.

I'd say that "Cloud Nine", and "Love Child" were Motown's first real attempts to make "socially relevent" music.

Since "Cloud Nine" was issued around the same time, i'd say both were lyrically socially relevant.

I'd say that "Going to A Go-Go" was an invitation for people to go out and dance!!

Roger

..as was "Dancing In The Street". Again, I was more focused on the music itself.

[roger]

Actually Soulster ..

Now I come to think about it, the first "socially aware" Motown hits would have been "Blowing in The Wind" and "A Place In The Sun" by STEVIE WONDER in 1966. Mind you neither of those recordings were anywhere near as "in your face" as "Love Child" or "Cloud Nine".

Roger

[Jimi LaLumia]

The Supremes and The Honey Cone, or Emotions, are better comparisons.

you ARE kidding, right? Honey Cone had 2 or 3 actual hits, Emotions had 1 !..
the comparisons are made because of the sales, radio airplay, and #1's tallies which made the Supremes the #1 American group of the 60s, not female group, but GROUP...period!...no other artist, male, female, or otherwise, comes near...this was not about music, who can play instruments, who writes their own songs, it's about clout, influence and FAME in that decade, and, as I said, no one else comes near...
I couldn't name a single member of Honey Cone or Emotions if my life depended on it, and I bought those records when they were new..

[marv2]

you ARE kidding, right? Honey Cone had 2 or 3 actual hits, Emotions had 1 !..
the comparisons are made because of the sales, radio airplay, and #1's tallies which made the Supremes the #1 American group of the 60s, not female group, but GROUP...period!...no other artist, male, female, or otherwise, comes near...this was not about music, who can play instruments, who writes their own songs, it's about clout, influence and FAME in that decade, and, as I said, no one else comes near...
I couldn't name a single member of Honey Cone or Emotions if my life depended on it, and I bought those records when they were new..

Jimi you are on target! You cannot legitimately compare the Supremes to groups such as those mentioned as they were as you said the top American Group during that era and one of the most successful in history. It always makes me chuckle when a certain guy on this forum says that no one would know who the Supremes were except one member, the lead singer LOL!!!!

[stephanie]

The Supremes are the ONLY girl group [[with the exception of the Pointer Sisters, maybe TLC and Destinys child) that the American household knew all of their names. OK I will rephrase that the ONLY girl group of the 60s. No offense to the Toys, The Ronettes, The Shangrilas, and the Shirelles and more but name me ONE girl group in the 60s that MOST people knew their names and I will eat crow.

[soulster]

you ARE kidding, right? Honey Cone had 2 or 3 actual hits, Emotions had 1 !..
the comparisons are made because of the sales, radio airplay, and #1's tallies which made the Supremes the #1 American group of the 60s, not female group, but GROUP...period!...no other artist, male, female, or otherwise, comes near...this was not about music, who can play instruments, who writes their own songs, it's about clout, influence and FAME in that decade, and, as I said, no one else comes near...
I couldn't name a single member of Honey Cone or Emotions if my life depended on it, and I bought those records when they were new..

No, i'm not kidding. My comparisons are not about the frequency of hits, it's about the general format, three female singers, of which one generally does the lead. They all were active in two decades, and all crossed over. You could include The Three Degrees and The Pointer Sisters if you want. The one difference with the Pointer Sisters is that they always had artistic control.

[tamla617]

The Supremes are the ONLY girl group [[with the exception of the Pointer Sisters, maybe TLC and Destinys child) that the American household knew all of their names. OK I will rephrase that the ONLY girl group of the 60s. No offense to the Toys, The Ronettes, The Shangrilas, and the Shirelles and more but name me ONE girl group in the 60s that MOST people knew their names and I will eat crow.

i couldnt name all the supps in the 60's or any of the others.i only knew the names of the beatles and rolling stones and the who so how do you want your fillet of crow?fried or boiled?

[Jimi LaLumia]

all of America knew The Supremes on sight![[and they're individually name checked in a #1 hit "Back In My arms Again"; you're trying to minimize them is pathetic at best.
The Who?...lol..you belong on another discussion board;
if you added the girls groups you mentioned combined, they still didn't have as many hits combined as The Supremes did between 1963 and 1977.. stop wasting your energy and our time, your infantile antics aren't even annoying cos they're too obviously trying to be...lol

[smark21]

all of America knew The Supremes on sight![[and they're individually name checked in a #1 hit "Back In My arms Again"; you're trying to minimize them is pathetic at best.
The Who?...lol..you belong on another discussion board;
if you added the girls groups you mentioned combined, they still didn't have as many hits combined as The Supremes did between 1963 and 1977.. stop wasting your energy and our time, your infantile antics aren't even annoying cos they're too obviously trying to be...lol

Since I was the one who started the thread, I brought up the question, which is very much, in a musical sense, apples vs. oranges, because fans like you get involved in sales and chart positions. But from a musical view, comparing and debating The Supremes vs. groups like Honey Cone, The Emotions, The Pointer Sisters, The Spice Girls, The Cover Girls, etc. is a much more apt question to ask, regardless of chart and sales performance, than to compare a singing group which had its material written, produced and chose for them vs. a band that wrote most of its own material and played a role in shaping its musical directino and arrangments.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I hear what you're saying but the enormous decades spanning worldwide success of The Supremes changed their game plan dramatically, in terms of music and more
..groups like Honey Cone and Three Degrees existed in a world of 'you're only as good as your last record'; The Supremes, of course, transcended that

[tamla617]

all of America knew The Supremes on sight![[and they're individually name checked in a #1 hit "Back In My arms Again"; you're trying to minimize them is pathetic at best.
The Who?...lol..you belong on another discussion board;
if you added the girls groups you mentioned combined, they still didn't have as many hits combined as The Supremes did between 1963 and 1977.. stop wasting your energy and our time, your infantile antics aren't even annoying cos they're too obviously trying to be...lol

what other board?i didnt say i liked them.there are other types of music on here.you started other board shit with these "got nothing else to think of" threads

you are doing this to cause an argument AGAIN

i'm not trying to derail this thread either.as for infantile...........where?

if you only wanted an american view point you should have asked for one and because you didnt you're getting it from the uk

loosly wrapped 'round a brick

[roger]

Well then Tamla617 ..

I couldn't have named all of the members of THE SUPREMES either back in the '60s .. but then "Back In My Arms Again" wasn't that big a hit here at the time .. I would imagine more people in Britain bought it when it was included in the "Greatest Hits" LP than did when it was a single .. like you I could have named all the members of THE BEATLES and THE ROLLING STONES but I might have struggled with THE WHO.

Whisper it very quietly but Jimi Lalumia seems to think that the world ends at the eastern end of Long Island and doesn't realise that there is another world out here on the eastern shores of the Atlantic Ocean .. shhhhhh .. LOL

Roger

[nabob]

Well then Tamla617 ..

I couldn't have named all of the members of THE SUPREMES either back in the '60s .. but then "Back In My Arms Again" wasn't that big a hit here at the time ... like you I could have named all the members of THE BEATLES and THE ROLLING STONES but I might have struggled with THE WHO.

I find this interesting in that It took me a long while to learn the names of the Beatles. With the Stones, I was never into their music. The only names that resonate are Mick Jagger [the media whore, meant in a nice way], Keith Richards for working with Aretha in the 1980s on Jumping Jack Flash, Charlie Watts for his two albums of standards in the late 1980s. Beyond that the only other information that comes to mind is a drummer who left this earth by over-dosing.

[tamla617]

i forgot to mention,i knew the monkees names too!think i'll emigrate to another forum now.after that admission its the least i could do!

[roger]

I find this interesting in that It took me a long while to learn the names of the Beatles. With the Stones, I was never into their music. The only names that resonate are Mick Jagger [the media whore, meant in a nice way], Keith Richards for working with Aretha in the 1980s on Jumping Jack Flash, Charlie Watts for his two albums of standards in the late 1980s. Beyond that the only other information that comes to mind is a drummer who left this earth by over-dosing.

I take it you mean the drummer with THE WHO [[KEITH MOON).. who died possibly after over-dosing?. BRIAN JONES of THE ROLLING STONES also died young [[drowning in a swimming pool, possibly as a result of an overdose) .. but he was a guitarist.

Putting all of this in perspective .. in 1965/6/7 in Britain THE WHO were huge .. with 7 Top 10 hits in that period .. the biggest were "My Generation" and "I'm A Boy", both of which got to #2 .. nowadays "I'm A Boy" is largely forgotten in Britain but "My Generation" is still thought of as an iconic record that "was a number one hit". When I look at my Joel Whitburn US "Billboard" books I can see that THE WHO were never that big in the'60s in the US .. with just 1 Top 10 .. "I Can See For Miles" .. and only really became massively popular in the 1969/70 period with their "Tommy" project.

Roger

[tamla617]

i think the who,with the csi franchise theme songs, are finding new fans

[nabob]

I take it you mean the drummer with THE WHO [[KEITH MOON).. who died possibly after over-dosing?. BRIAN JONES of THE ROLLING STONES also died young [[drowning in a swimming pool, possibly as a result of an overdose) .. but he was a guitarist.

I guess that shows you how informed I am. The corrected information is appreciated.

[juicefree20]

Nabob,

Actually, the fact that you got the names mixed up made your point perfectly. Think about it

[Jimi LaLumia]

if you only wanted an american view point you should have asked for one and because you didnt you're getting it from the uk

loosly wrapped 'round a brick

how verrrry PUNK!!...but of course we invented that in NYC and then you blokes hopped aboard the train after the fact...
chooo chooooooo!!!!

[juicefree20]

Bankhouse,

Thank you for understanding.

Soulster,

Actually, if you remember how Motown was set up, the more crossover sounds ended up on Motown, Tamla & the like. The more obvious Soul makers like Gladys Knight & The Pips, The Temptations, Shorty Long, etc., ended up on the Gordy & Soul imprints. So right there, you were aware that indeed Motown was set up to aim at a more crossover crowd & a listen to the musical approaches of each bears this out.

[marv2]

Well then Tamla617 ..

I couldn't have named all of the members of THE SUPREMES either back in the '60s .. but then "Back In My Arms Again" wasn't that big a hit here at the time .. I would imagine more people in Britain bought it when it was included in the "Greatest Hits" LP than did when it was a single .. like you I could have named all the members of THE BEATLES and THE ROLLING STONES but I might have struggled with THE WHO.

Whisper it very quietly but Jimi Lalumia seems to think that the world ends at the eastern end of Long Island and doesn't realise that there is another world out here on the eastern shores of the Atlantic Ocean .. shhhhhh .. LOL

Roger

Well for this Long Islander it does! "Montauk Is The End"! LOL! What Jimi said is correct. He just did not take into account that members here from other countries had different experiences. Sometimes I forget that a lot of what went on in and around Detroit, things we enjoyed locally that many people even in the U.S. would not have been familiar with. True we all knew who the individual Supremes were [[in Detroit before "Back In My Arms" and the "More Hits" album) just like we all knew the individual players on the '68 Tigers. Some kid growing up in Oklahoma or somewhere may not have known or even cared.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and the concept of "The Supremes", Ed Sullivan even told America their names when his was the most watched show in the country, how often did that happen?>>>NEVER..except with The Supremes, he name checked them individually a few times, which was unheard of..no other group, male or female got this accomodation..the same name checking happened on The Sammy Davis Jr. Show and numerous other tv shows, and the girls names are actually mentioned in "Back In My Arms again" which was a #1 U.S. single...
we love the UK, GOD SAVE THE QUEEN![[s)

[kenneth]

Well for this Long Islander it does! "Montauk Is The End"! LOL! What Jimi said is correct. He just did not take into account that members here from other countries had different experiences. Sometimes I forget that a lot of what went on in and around Detroit, things we enjoyed locally that many people even in the U.S. would not have been familiar with. True we all knew who the individual Supremes were [[in Detroit before "Back In My Arms" and the "More Hits" album) just like we all knew the individual players on the '68 Tigers. Some kid growing up in Oklahoma or somewhere may not have known or even cared.

Yes, everyone from Detroit knew who the all of the Supremes were, and took their ins and outs very personally, and that's why we still have the right to call her 'Diane' and not 'Diana.'

[marv2]

Yes, everyone from Detroit knew who the all of the Supremes were, and took their ins and outs very personally, and that's why we still have the right to call her 'Diane' and not 'Diana.'

You go that right! Her sister Margarite [[sp?) we called her Rita. Her ex-boyfriend who was a friend of ours calls her that too to this day. But anyway.....I digress because I don't know anyone or anything, hehehehehehehe!!!

[skooldem1]

The thing I don't understand is this; many claim that Florences' solo career never did take off because she couldn't capitalize on the fact she was a Supreme. Then there is Mary Wilson, who still to this day tours as "Formerly of" or Mary Wilson of the Supremes. If in fact their names were so recognized, why didn't their solo careers ever take off?

[Roberta75]

The thing I don't understand is this; many claim that Florences' solo career never did take off because she couldn't capitalize on the fact she was a Supreme. Then there is Mary Wilson, who still to this day tours as "Formerly of" or Mary Wilson of the Supremes. If in fact their names were so recognized, why didn't their solo careers ever take off?

LOL. Great question but I have a feeling one or two here will blame Berry and Diana, like they always do.

Roberta

[tamla617]

The thing I don't understand is this; many claim that Florences' solo career never did take off because she couldn't capitalize on the fact she was a Supreme. Then there is Mary Wilson, who still to this day tours as "Formerly of" or Mary Wilson of the Supremes. If in fact their names were so recognized, why didn't their solo careers ever take off?

that is a brilliant question and one i'm ducking out of too!

[marv2]

The thing I don't understand is this; many claim that Florences' solo career never did take off because she couldn't capitalize on the fact she was a Supreme. Then there is Mary Wilson, who still to this day tours as "Formerly of" or Mary Wilson of the Supremes. If in fact their names were so recognized, why didn't their solo careers ever take off?

Mary Wilson has a very successful solo career. I think you are only referring to the recording aspect rather than her comphrensive career. Right?

Neither Florence or Mary were allowed to record as "Florence Ballard and the Supremes" or "Mary Wilson and the Supremes" such in the way Berry Gordy promoted Diana Ross to the World before going solo as "Diana Ross and the Supremes".

We should also examine the material and the way both Florence and Mary were produced in their initial solo outings. I should also mentioned that I personally have not seen Mary Wilson referred to as "Mary Wilson formerly of the Supremes" or "Mary Wilson of the Supremes" in her billing, in quite some time. I see "Legendary singer" used a lot by others when introducing her or discussing her.

[skooldem1]

Yes, I am talking about mainstream and recording success.