Why the Suprmes declined-proof!

**luke** · 10-08-2011, 05:51 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ICHF1yhso I offer this--Jean, Mary and Lynda live.

**BayouMotownMan** · 10-08-2011, 06:16 PM

Luke, how could I get a copy of that show. Sounds like good quality

**luke** · 10-08-2011, 06:24 PM

Just stumbled on it on you tube. Maybe leave a comment asking. I love Jean but what the heck was she doing? Vocal exercises? And of course speeded up ridiculously. Couldnt Motown arrangers hear how bad it was?

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-08-2011, 06:26 PM

yes, pretty painful...they should have pulled the Ross era stuff, Jean obviously had little use for it..and the band sounds like they're in a horse race..lol..the group should have been treated as a 'new' group,and Jean clearly needed to be reined in a bit..or leave..which she did..all that 'souling' was the bane of Gordy's existence..we knew she had a superb vpice, what was she trying to prove?

**marv2** · 10-08-2011, 06:26 PM

That's a friend of mine's clip. They do alright with this medley, Mary had to work overtime at this point to keep them Supreme. It was a good thing that she went ahead and revamped the group with Cindy Birdsong and Scherrie Payne.

**marv2** · 10-08-2011, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by luke

Just stumbled on it on you tube. Maybe leave a comment asking. I love Jean but what the heck was she doing? Vocal exercises? And of course speeded up ridiculously. Couldnt Motown arrangers hear how bad it was?

Teddy was conducting at that time and he was doing basically what they wanted.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-08-2011, 06:40 PM

and clearly Gordy and Motown had,indeed, washed their hands of them by this point to allow this to happen..Jean pulls the same antics on the "Live..Japan" album,was she that bored/frustrated after such a short time frame with the group?

Ross was not a team player, but clearly, Jean was one apple that didn't fall far from the tree either...I love the first two and a half years of the 'new' Supremes,but things then obviously went off the rails,as they say..

**marv2** · 10-08-2011, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

and clearly Gordy and Motown had,indeed, washed their hands of them by this point to allow this to happen..Jean pulls the same antics on the "Live..Japan" album,was she that bored/frustrated after such a short time frame with the group?

Ross was not a team player, but clearly, Jean was one apple that didn't fall far from the tree either...I love the first two and a half years of the 'new' Supremes,but things then obviously went off the rails,as they say..

Jimi, good observation. I "think" that by the time of that clip, it all became just a job to Jean Terrell.

**Koach** · 10-08-2011, 07:28 PM

I've heard that before. I don't care for the 70's Supremes versions of the 60's hits, no matter who the lead singer was. Jean Terrell did them more in the style of Diana Ross in the 80's and 90's while with the FLO's. That was a lot better IMO.

**BayouMotownMan** · 10-08-2011, 07:29 PM

Well I guess I am different. I have always loved Jean's soulful deliveries. She was just exercising her vocal chops giving a new twist to those old hits she hated singing. Most people didn't like it I suppose...but I love me some Jean Terrell

**luke** · 10-08-2011, 07:34 PM

I guess this is proof that Jean just wasnt cut out for show business. Here she was lead singer of the most successful group in America and shes doin what she feels like! ugh. But what a talent! Were all the Motown medleys speeded up for all singers? Could they not hear how bad it was?? PS I love when Jean lets go like on Love Train but it just doesnt fit here IMO. Baby Love aint Respect.

**luke** · 10-08-2011, 07:38 PM

And Diana almost always gave it her all-and wanted the Supremes to come across as supreme. Much more professional than Jean in this.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-08-2011, 08:02 PM

those old hits she hated singing? ..why then did she sign on?..so Gordy was right and Mary was wrong when he changed his mind about Jean? wow...learn something new every day..

**BayouMotownMan** · 10-08-2011, 08:11 PM

It didn't bother her in the beginning Jimi but by the time Lynda joined the group was losing momentum and the reviews started to tank and invariably they were compared to Ross. Jean felt if they kept singing old songs they would never be accepted as the new Supremes. They had half a dozen major hits with Jean but Jean's point was that the group needed to go in a new direction. She was more soulful than pop.

The general public however still wanted to hear Stop and Baby Love. When Jean made her last performance with the group in August 1973 she finally got her wish; all pre-1970 songs were taken out.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-08-2011, 08:58 PM

thanks for the time line..but the general public was getting a medley of Stop and Baby Love from Diana Ross, the actual vocalist on those records..that should have been enough,and the new group should have been able to explore new ground[[like the Jimmy Webb album,which seemed to get no support whatsoever; and as lovely as it was, who did they think was going to buy and or program "I Guess I'll Miss The Man"..bad management, or no mangement, no one to say NO!

**marv2** · 10-08-2011, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

those old hits she hated singing? ..why then did she sign on?..so Gordy was right and Mary was wrong when he changed his mind about Jean? wow...learn something new every day..

Nah, now can you really say that and believe it? Think about all the great NEW music The Supremes made with Jean Terrell. An artist is an artist........and sometimes a commercial commodity to some companies. No Jean did not bend and allow herself to be molded into someone she was not. Yes, Jean Terrell created some true classic recordings with the Supremes which help allow the group to continue on for years.

**marv2** · 10-08-2011, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

thanks for the time line..but the general public was getting a medley of Stop and Baby Love from Diana Ross, the actual vocalist on those records..that should have been enough,and the new group should have been able to explore new ground[[like the Jimmy Webb album,which seemed to get no support whatsoever; and as lovely as it was, who did they think was going to buy and or program "I Guess I'll Miss The Man"..bad management, or no mangement, no one to say NO!

Yeah but to the general public of which I am one, the Supremes were bigger than any one member and they were known for songs like "Baby Love", "Stop In the Name of Love". When you pay good money to see "The Supremes" they had better sing at least a couple of their initial hits. Yeah Diana Ross was out there singing them too, sometimes in medley form which was fine, but when it came to the Supremes, they HAD to sing those songs.

**BobC** · 10-08-2011, 09:26 PM

I think Jean Terrell was/is a great singer, much closer to Dionne Warwick than Diana Ross, but I think the original Supremes did this [[frankly corny) song much better. Not because of DR, but because Mary and Florence, IMO based on older clips I've seen, were amazing on the background. It was like D was sort of setting up the audience for that dazzling finale with all three voices. In my view, the original version of this song showed both the strengths and weaknesses of the original Supremes. Diana was better than the other two at delivering lead vocal phrasing, but when it came to delivering a full, lush background, Mary and Florence were second to nobody. This is the first time I ever heard Jean do this song. She's okay, but I think she's over-singing it. She does great on more soulful songs like "Stoned Love." I don't think any sane person would doubt that Linda L was/is a great singer, but on this song the mix seems to me all wrong. I find the older clips of Mary, Flo, and Diane singing "Somewhere" exhilarating, even though the song and that stupid monologue was pretty lame.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-08-2011, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by marv2

Yeah but to the general public of which I am one, the Supremes were bigger than any one member and they were known for songs like "Baby Love", "Stop In the Name of Love". When you pay good money to see "The Supremes" they had better sing at least a couple of their initial hits. Yeah Diana Ross was out there singing them too, sometimes in medley form which was fine, but when it came to the Supremes, they HAD to sing those songs.

I'm fine with Mary Wilson doing those songs in her solo act,she has a right, she was a member of the group when those records were made,she was on most of those records,and she delivers them respectfully..but if Jean decided at one point to, pardon my French,start pissing all over the material, then they should have stopped doing them altogether,or let Wilson step foward for that particular part of the program..there is no justifying how Jean approached the medleys after a while, and I'm a defender and fan of the 70's Supremes, but hearing these things and performances is just horrific

**captainjames** · 10-08-2011, 09:54 PM

This just plain stank !!!

**Roberta75** · 10-08-2011, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by captainjames

This just plain stank !!!

LOL. It's like Jean is on speed or something.

**jeff9nyc** · 10-09-2011, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Well I guess I am different. I have always loved Jean's soulful deliveries. She was just exercising her vocal chops giving a new twist to those old hits she hated singing. Most people didn't like it I suppose...but I love me some Jean Terrell

I have to agree! I love how she does the old hits. I especially loved her "My World Is Empty Without You." Just beautiful. When Scherrie attempts the same thing with Jean's arrangement it's painful to me. I feel like I'm being beaten over the head with it much like her intro to "Stoned Love." Jean is a brilliant vocalist. Scherrie is strong.

**marv2** · 10-09-2011, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by jeff9nyc

I have to agree! I love how she does the old hits. I especially loved her "My World Is Empty Without You." Just beautiful. When Scherrie attempts the same thing with Jean's arrangement it's painful to me. I feel like I'm being beaten over the head with it much like her intro to "Stoned Love." Jean is a brilliant vocalist. Scherrie is strong.

You have a point there. Jean Terrell does one of the best versions of "My World Is Empty Without You". Scherrie's is good too, but she gets carried away with the ad libbing. The effect of which changes the song drastically and not always for the better in my opinion.

**ejluther** · 10-09-2011, 08:22 AM

I find most, if not all, live Supremes medleys to be too fast, no matter what incarnation of the group is singing them - maybe it's the effect of just hearing snippets put together like that in that it just feels rushed to the listener, even if it's not? Regardless, as for this specific clip, maybe it worked better live when you could not only hear it better, but see them performing, too? I don't want to judge anyone too quickly on an audience recording. On that topic, I find most live recordings suffer without the benefit of actually being there/seeing the performance, too. Still, I can see why someone would hear that and think Jean/the group really didn't want to sing those songs. The rushed quality does feel like a bit like, "OK - let's get this over with - here are some of the old hits..."

but I think the original Supremes did this [[frankly corny) song much better....This is the first time I ever heard Jean do this song. She's okay, but I think she's over-singing it.

You're talking about LOVE IS HERE..., right?

**luke** · 10-09-2011, 08:54 AM

No wonder the reviews were being critical. I agree Jean a phenomenal vocalist. But she was in a group that made her famous. She should have left in 1972 before she started bringng the group down. Scherrie does not know subtlety when she sings but she was much more a team player. Look how she blends into group here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaTEG_138g

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-09-2011, 10:53 AM

well, in all reality, Jean WAS replacing MISS ROSS![[team player?) so I don't know how important the team player factor really was; but The Rolling Stones ,to this day, don't do medleys of their classic hits, neither does Paul Mc Cartney with his Beatles classics,they do complete versions;
someone said people still want to hear Stop! and Baby Love; well, then do them,not thirty second snippets before going into a ten minute Jimmy Webb segment from an album that no one bought..
.no wonder the group went down, all the Motown groups had this snippets of the hits fever, and the ticket buying public reacted accordingly, they started staying away; the same applies to Miss Ross, who started ,finally, doing full versions of Supremes hits on this recent, successful tour' cos it is a "HITS' tour, and she's actually doing the hits,not 30 second samples!

**BobC** · 10-09-2011, 10:53 AM

Ejluther--after I listened to this clip I found a clip of JM and L doing "Somewhere" and forgot we were talking about this hits clip. sorry. I'd just come back from Happy Hour so I was a bit confused. Good thing I was hired for my looks, not my brains.

**kenneth** · 10-09-2011, 11:52 AM

It's been a while since I've listened to the "Live in Japan" LP, but this Medley sounds a lot like the one on that album. Very rushed, bad tinny sounding arrangement and odd vocal delivery by Jean. I wonder if she was so determined not to imitate Diane that she just went out of her way to sound so offhand. Clearly, these songs deserved better.

Some of the early Supremes' catalog seems better suited to covers by different singers than others. As has been mentioned, "My World is Empty Without You" is a good song which several others have done in their own way. So too, I think "Love is Here and Now You're Gone," which was also an R&B hit by another singer [[Tami Yuro I think). Even "Stop! in the Name of Love" was completely "deconstructed" later by Margie Joseph. But the early early hits such as "Baby Love" and "Come See About Me" I cannot imagine done well by others...except perhaps Jr. Walker as he proved with his own version of "Come See," which is hardly the same song!

**jeff9nyc** · 10-09-2011, 11:57 AM

Jean's version of "Somewhere" still blows my mind! I get chills when she reaches for that high note when she sings the last Somewheeeeere! Wow, what a phenominal singer.

**luke** · 10-09-2011, 11:58 AM

The team player factor was very impt to Cindy and Mary and Frank Wilson.

**Jimi LaLumia** · 10-09-2011, 11:59 AM

until I got a copy of "Japan" I always wondered why it was never released here; I figured it out real fast once I got a CD copy a few years back..lol

**kenneth** · 10-09-2011, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jimi LaLumia

until I got a copy of "Japan" I always wondered why it was never released here; I figured it out real fast once I got a CD copy a few years back..lol

Some of "Japan" is good...I like the solo spots such as the renditions of "For Once in My Life" and "Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars," but I agree overall, it's disappointing. Also, the "once upon a time" intros of the girls is a little much...goes on too long and is ridiculous. I think, perhaps like you, I've probably played the album 3 or 4 times at most.

**Roberta75** · 10-09-2011, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by kenneth

Some of "Japan" is good...I like the solo spots such as the renditions of "For Once in My Life" and "Quiet Nights of Quiet Stars," but I agree overall, it's disappointing. Also, the "once upon a time" intros of the girls is a little much...goes on too long and is ridiculous. I think, perhaps like you, I've probably played the album 3 or 4 times at most.

I played it twice and threw it in a box. The Live in Japan album is awful IMO.

**captainjames** · 10-09-2011, 12:16 PM

Sorry everyone this still stank !!

**ejluther** · 10-09-2011, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by BobC

Ejluther--after I listened to this clip I found a clip of JM and L doing "Somewhere" and forgot we were talking about this hits clip. sorry. I'd just come back from Happy Hour so I was a bit confused. Good thing I was hired for my looks, not my brains.

Ha! No problem - but do you have that clip of "Somewhere" to share? I'd like to hear it [[I think the only version I've ever heard with Jean is on the LIVE IN JAPAN record - or maybe that's the one you're talking about)...

**BobC** · 10-09-2011, 01:17 PM

Luther--I found it on Youtube somewhere and from the comments I read, it was from the Japan Live record.

**jobeterob** · 10-09-2011, 01:36 PM

The singing wasn't that bad; the background was good; the backing musicians were terrible.

This is why Live in Japan sold 732 copies.

**jeff9nyc** · 10-09-2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

The singing wasn't that bad; the background was good; the backing musicians were terrible.

I have to agree. The vocals were great, although I do miss having the Jean solo which was edited out. But the band stunk! I think a great disservice was done to the recording when it was remixed for CD and the band brought forward and the vocals pushed back. I think the vinyl mix, although unbalanced, is FAR superior. There was a reason that band was mixed low! I wish there had been some money to augment it with some strings or perhaps some horns.

**ejluther** · 10-09-2011, 02:30 PM

When Jean made her last performance with the group in August 1973 she finally got her wish; all pre-1970 songs were taken out.

That's an interesting piece of trivia - where was her last show with the group anyway?

but if Jean decided at one point to, pardon my French,start pissing all over the material, then they should have stopped doing them altogether,or let Wilson step foward for that particular part of the program..

That would have been a great thing for them to do...

**captainjames** · 10-09-2011, 05:30 PM

There is no defending this performance - If Jean was sick of doing the songs or doing the Supremes then Lynda should have been given the Lead. This performance stinks !!!

**marv2** · 10-09-2011, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by ejluther

I find most, if not all, live Supremes medleys to be too fast, no matter what incarnation of the group is singing them - maybe it's the effect of just hearing snippets put together like that in that it just feels rushed to the listener, even if it's not? Regardless, as for this specific clip, maybe it worked better live when you could not only hear it better, but see them performing, too? I don't want to judge anyone too quickly on an audience recording. On that topic, I find most live recordings suffer without the benefit of actually being there/seeing the performance, too. Still, I can see why someone would hear that and think Jean/the group really didn't want to sing those songs. The rushed quality does feel like a bit like, "OK - let's get this over with - here are some of the old hits..."

You're talking about LOVE IS HERE..., right?

The absolute WORST version of the "Medley of Hits" I ever heard was when Mary, Scherrie & Susaye performed them on the Mike Douglas Show in 1976! I remember thinking..."What are they doing? and Why are they doing those songs so fast!"

**marv2** · 10-09-2011, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by captainjames

There is no defending this performance - If Jean was sick of doing the songs or doing the Supremes then Lynda should have been given the Lead. This performance stinks !!!

Lynda didn't sound good leading in my opinion. Jean was fine, she just needed to stick to the original tempo, arrangements ,etc.

**jobeterob** · 10-10-2011, 12:00 AM

Lynda definitely had a strong enough voice to be the lead singer.

**marv2** · 10-10-2011, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by jobeterob

Lynda definitely had a strong enough voice to be the lead singer.

A lead singer somewhere.......just not with the Supremes , hence there are no known recordings of her singing lead that Motown produced.

**BayouMotownMan** · 10-10-2011, 12:47 PM

Lynda is gifted vocally no doubt, but her sound is more soul than pop. She has intensity but not the warmth of a Jean Terrell or Diana Ross. Also, she is singing background in a "lead" voice which makes the harmonies suffer. Cindy and Flo didn't do this, they sang the high parts which blended with Mary's alto.

**captainjames** · 10-10-2011, 05:19 PM

Does anyone know who made the decision when Jean became ill to send Lynda as the lead singer for the Supremes ?

**rod_rick** · 10-10-2011, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

Lynda is gifted vocally no doubt, but her sound is more soul than pop. She has intensity but not the warmth of a Jean Terrell or Diana Ross. Also, she is singing background in a "lead" voice which makes the harmonies suffer. Cindy and Flo didn't do this, they sang the high parts which blended with Mary's alto.

Lynda may have been okay back in the early 70's singing lead on some of the supremes songs. Her version of Stoned Love and You're Nobody Till Somebody Love You" are pretty good. Now days, she stray so far away from the melody, she sound as if she's singing off key. Lynda sounds her best when she keeps it simple.

**jobeterob** · 10-10-2011, 06:03 PM

I don't really know what Lynda sounds like that much.

I did some research once on which of the "other Supremes" was most successful on the Charts and as I recall Scherrie was the most successful and then Lynda. A shame Jean didn't do better because she has a great voice for those years 1970 to 1972.

**bradsupremes** · 10-10-2011, 07:26 PM

I'd have to say that the Jean, Mary & Lynda grouping of Supremes was probably lowest point in the group's history. No disrespect to the ladies, but nothing really outstanding was recorded during that period. The Jimmy Webb album was bad, their live show was in dire need of change, Motown no longer cared about the group, Jean didn't care about being a team player anymore and Lynda soon followed. Way too many internal problems. I have to wonder if the absence of Cindy played a role...[[I like to think it did). The group visually, vocally, and internally improved when Scherrie joined and Cindy came back. Some may disagree, but the material recorded when it was Scherrie, Mary and Cindy AND Scherrie, Mary, and Susaye was superior than what was recorded during Jean's last year with the group.

dianesfan_1965 · 10-10-2011, 07:52 PM

Well I'll bite. What I think is that Jean really didn't have her heart into singing the Ross lead hits. Her voice is much more made for the 70's Supremes songs. I know that many Ross fans will shit their pants, but I actually enjoy hearing Mary or Scherrie sing the 60's hits. Mary really has her heart in the songs when she sings lead on them. But of course Ross was the lead singer on the records. But I have heard Mary sing various 60's songs and you can hear it in her voice that she loves these songs, as does Ross. Jean's voice was much more made for other songs. Diana voice was what gave these song back in the day the "kick" for pop radio. But I must say as the year went along, Diana's voice matured more to suit the song she recorded solo.

I'll just leave this red meat out there and let the hog rip it up.