What does "over produced" mean?

[blueskies]

I've read recently of a CD or song being "over produced". Not being a musician or having any knowledge of the recording business....not sure what that means. What would I be looking for if something was "over produced"? I know some of you folks here have vast knowledge about these things. Thanks

[ralpht]

Blue,
Using too many instruments, when not really needed is one form of over producing. I've been guilty a time or two.

[timmyfunk]

Could Phil Spector be described as someone who occasionally over-produced? That whole Wall Of Sound thing seemed like a nice alternative to calling his productions over-produced.

[smark21]

I would certainly label Phil Spector's production of Ike and Tina's River Deep Mountain High and the work he did on The Beatles' Long and Winding Road textbook examples of over production. Also some of the cuts on the Supremes Jimmy Webb album, especially with regards to the use of background vocals, or should I say, choir.

[splanky]

I liked Phil's "Wall of Sound" concept for the most part but I have to agree with smark on River Deep Mountain High. That
was overkill x 10. By contrast The Long and Winding Road didn't bother me too much because the melody was too gorgeous.
Robert Bell has said he thinks several Kool and The Gang albums, particularily with Deodato if I remember correctly, were
overproduced and though I wasn't sure I agreed with at the time, as I look back over their work on youtube I have to say
he was not just right but brutally honest. Open Sesame certainly was. I might catch a smack for this but I can think of at
least two EWF albums that I felt the same way about as well as my man George Clinton's later material. It's an easy trap to
fall into, believing your own hype, caught up in the moment in the studio...

[blueskies]

Thanks to everyone for clarifying this. I'm not familiar with all the music used for example, but, certainly the Wall of Sound stands out and it makes sense. One that really hit home was the Jimmy Webb Supreme's LP with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the back ground!

[timmyfunk]

I liked Phil's "Wall of Sound" concept for the most part but I have to agree with smark on River Deep Mountain High. That
was overkill x 10. By contrast The Long and Winding Road didn't bother me too much because the melody was too gorgeous.
Robert Bell has said he thinks several Kool and The Gang albums, particularily with Deodato if I remember correctly, were
overproduced and though I wasn't sure I agreed with at the time, as I look back over their work on youtube I have to say
he was not just right but brutally honest. Open Sesame certainly was. I might catch a smack for this but I can think of at
least two EWF albums that I felt the same way about as well as my man George Clinton's later material. It's an easy trap to
fall into, believing your own hype, caught up in the moment in the studio...

Cinderella Theory and Hey Man, Smell My Finger were overproduced in my opinion.

[jillfoster]

Overproduced is some kind of nebulous bullshit term that some music critics use to sound hip and informed. Anything that is lush and full is labeled as that... but it is what it IS... LUSH and FULL. There is a place for big and bombastic productions just as there is a place for more stripped down kind of things, and everything in between. It's just like food. you have hot dogs, then you have hamburgers, then you have steak, and sometimes people like to get fancy and make some veal prince orloff. Of course, the biggest example of what people call "Over produced" would be Richard Harris' Macarthur Park, which I think is the biggest masterpiece in pop music history. There is no such thing as overproduced in my book, the bigger the better... such as this:

[timmyfunk]

And there are many examples of over-production that simply ruin what was otherwise a decent song. This maybe the reason for why there so many re-releases of classic albums with alternate takes or albums like Let It Be-Naked. Sure, there are over-produced songs that were big hits. But the over-production definitely diminished what could have been a truly great recording.

[daddyacey]

Over produced = Commercialization. What happens ,[[IMO), is that an artist creates something that is personal and unique and gets noticed by an audience that understands and respects and enjoys that artists work. Then ,the record company comes in and says "this is the new thing" ,lets try to sell it to EVERYBODY. And because this is the era of the "producer" ,who ever is the more popular producer of the time gets to change it into what THEY percieve is the new thing that people want. It's hip ,it's now. Never ending story , a group or artist works and make a fan base. Record company takes notice ,first maybe second album shows a growing audience. Bring in producer and third fourth album is noticed by a larger audience ,then boom ..shit hits the fan. The artist has less input as to what is created cause the record company wany to sell to the masses. Artist/Group is now between a rock and a hard place. Trend takes precedence. The rest is sad history...............

[roger]

Didn't Bobby Eli [[a few years back when he used to contribute to the forum) post that in retrospect he thought that some of those Philly productions were a bit too overproduced in that sometimes the string arrangements were drowning out the songs?

Roger

[Sotosound]

An interesting comparison might be the mono single and stereo LP versions of "Who's Loving You" by the Jackson Five.

Another interesting comparison might be the mono single and stereo LP versions of "Take A Look Around" by The Temptations.

In the first case I believe that the stereo LP version is over-produced and suffers as a result.

In the second case I believe that the stereo LP version is under-produced and suffers as a result.

[skooldem1]

When I think of "over produced" I think of some songs by Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, and Beyonce. I am a fan and enjoy them, but some songs are way over produced.

[ladonna]

I don't know exactly what "over produced" means, but I know it when I hear it. This is an example of a song being over produced, IMO; Motown was so intent on having a hit record on this, they went overboard; everything including the kitchen sink.

[Amithesameboy]

" Safety zone " by Bobby Womack. Now, THAT is an over-produced album.

[timmyfunk]

Ain't No Mountain High Enough and Reach Out And Touch Somebody's Hand by Diana Ross are the quintessential examples of over-production.

[Doug-Morgan]

Great examples. Spector had a "sound" so although the label "overproduced" could be applied there, the "overproduction" did not interfere with the "sound" or tonal quality of his records [[except "River Deep...."), and if you strip away even a layer of the "sound", it wouldn't be quite right. On the other hand, to me if you took a recording and removed a part of the production and that removal either did not hurt or possibly improved the total "concept", then it's probably overproduced.

Loosely translated, I can't define it, but I know it when I hear it.

[smark21]

I don't know exactly what "over produced" means, but I know it when I hear it. This is an example of a song being over produced, IMO; Motown was so intent on having a hit record on this, they went overboard; everything including the kitchen sink.

The only thing that production lacks is a tuba solo to close out the song.

[uptight]

Although I loved the records, some might think tracks produced by Michael Masser were over-produced. "It's My Turn," "The Greatest Love of All" and "Saving All My Love For You."

While they may have been almost like gilded lilies, I tended to view them as "lush and full." And along with massive instrumentation there was often lots of [[[[[[reverb))).

[timmyfunk]

Very interesting that most of the examples cited are pop songs.

[soulster]

"Over-production" could be described as a recording that is meticulously created. Every note is played or tweaked perfectly. The timing/tempo is impeccable. Nothing is out of place. The vocals are 100% perfect and in-tune. The arrangements are calculated. There's no microphone leakage. The instruments were recorded cleanly. The editing is transparent. Every the recording is clean. The recording almost sounds like humans didn't make it at all.

Some examples of what could be considered "over-produced" by some could include:

The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett
You Can't Hurry Love - The Supremes
Want Ads - The Honey Cone
Word Up - Cameo
Photograph - Def Leppard
Your Smiling Face - James Taylor

[ralpht]

Over producing can move into the mixing department also.

[soulster]

Over producing can move into the mixing department also.

Exactly! That's where the tweaking comes in.

But, of course, "over-production" is all subjective. I doubt that the Steely Dan guys think they are over-producing their albums.

[splanky]

soulster said:
a recording that is meticulously created. Every note is played or tweaked perfectly. The timing/tempo is impeccable. Nothing is out of place. The vocals are 100% perfect and in-tune. The arrangements are calculated. There's no microphone leakage. The instruments were recorded cleanly. The editing is transparent. Every the recording is clean. The recording almost sounds like humans didn't make it at all.

Honestly, soulster, what you described does not sound like over production to me but optimum production which I think
any producer should be aiming for. I understand jill foster's argument about "lushness" too but I think that can be achieved
without a piece being overproduced. I think of jazz big bands have been doing that forever. Over production to me means
when too many augments to an arrangement get in the way of the composition or too many instruments are crowded into
a piece disrupting the tone and making some of them barely audible...

[timmyfunk]

"Over-production" could be described as a recording that is meticulously created. Every note is played or tweaked perfectly. The timing/tempo is impeccable. Nothing is out of place. The vocals are 100% perfect and in-tune. The arrangements are calculated. There's no microphone leakage. The instruments were recorded cleanly. The editing is transparent. Every the recording is clean. The recording almost sounds like humans didn't make it at all.

Some examples of what could be considered "over-produced" by some could include:

The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett
You Can't Hurry Love - The Supremes
Want Ads - The Honey Cone
Word Up - Cameo
Photograph - Def Leppard
Your Smiling Face - James Taylor

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because aside from the last two songs [[which I've never heard), none of those songs strike me as being overproduced. Sixties soul in general doesn't come off as overproduced.

[daddyacey]

I agree also that ,
Aside from "Photograph - Def Leppard", which I've never heard as well ,the songs listed just seem to be very well produced. They all have the climax at the end that brings all the seperate elements of each production together ,just long enough for the last 60 seconds or less of the track as opposed to everything going full throttle for 2 or more mins or 6 to 8 bars.

[uptight]

Yes, I agree with Soulster, Timmy, Splanky and Daddyacey. Most of the records listed were carefully arranged, mixed and edited to be near perfect for the target audience. Nothing wrong with that in my book, but some might consider them over-produced.

[uptight]

Is it reasonable to say if it can't be performed that way live on stage, then the record might be over-produced?

[timmyfunk]

Is it reasonable to say if it can't be performed that way live on stage, then the record might be over-produced?

So are you saying that Sgt. Pepper and every Beatles album that came after it was overproduced?

[smark21]

Photograph is the only Def Leppard song I ever liked. Big rock hit in the early 80's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ5bS3_BCDs

[soulster]

Sixties soul in general doesn't come off as overproduced.

I cannot agree with that! Just listen to a lion's share of Motown, Aretha Franklin, Chess, and a lot of Stax, and you'll find tons of production. Wilson Pickett Muscle Shoals sides and the rest of the post 1965 Brunswick singles come to mind as well.

[soulster]

Photograph is the only Def Leppard song I ever liked. Big rock hit in the early 80's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ5bS3_BCDs

Hah! I was just about to post that link! I know it's not R&B music, but I cannot believe these guys never heard the song. It's one of the best things from 1983, and one of my all-time favorite songs.

[vcq]

I don't know exactly what "over produced" means, but I know it when I hear it. This is an example of a song being over produced, IMO; Motown was so intent on having a hit record on this, they went overboard; everything including the kitchen sink.

Showing my age here, but that's the FIRST time I've ever heard [[of) this song. I'd take an overproduced Motown album over Autotune any day of the week!

Also, the record industry also plays a role in an artist's sound, I'm sure. Take a listen to the following: Would you have guessed that this is the same artist that came up with Poker Face, Bad Romance, etc.? To be honest, I liked her earlier style; it's much more organic and soulful than the overproduced pop that is "American music" these days.

[timmyfunk]

I cannot agree with that! Just listen to a lion's share of Motown, Aretha Franklin, Chess, and a lot of Stax, and you'll find tons of production. Wilson Pickett Muscle Shoals sides and the rest of the post 1965 Brunswick singles come to mind as well.

That ain't overproduction to my ears at all. If anything, the production on those records are sparse and economical. Tight and truly Funky. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[roger]

That ain't overproduction to my ears at all. If anything, the production on those records are sparse and economical. Tight and truly Funky. Agree to disagree I suppose.

Have to agree with you Timmyfunk.

To my mind most of those records are "well produced".

As far as I'm concerned "Over-Produced" occurs when there wasn't much of a song to begin with and the producer/arranger attempts to compensate for that by adding all kind of effects [[musical or otherwise) to try to gain the interest of the listener. The Marvin & Diana track that Ladonna posted seems a good example ..

Roger

[splanky]

I have to agree with Tim and Roger. Motown, Stax, Chess and even Atlantic worked primarily with a cadre of top notch
studio musicians. I can think of little in their catalogs I'd call over-produced so I have to ask "what lion's share". I concede
Norman Whitfield [[ rest his soul) could get a little heavy with the Tempations and maybe Quincy Jones did over-over dub
Sister Ree but for the most part these guys created some of the most enjoyable and timeless music recorded in America...

[robb_k]

Over-produced is inclusion of "added/unnecessary" production elements [[instrumentation, mixing features, etc. that interfere with the basic talent of the artist being heard and appreciated. Phil Specter's "Wall of Sound" in "Be My Baby" or "I Wonder" or "Christmas Baby Please Come Home" didn't interfere with the artists' work, just providing a setting for it within which to be appreciated. By contrast, in "River Deep, Mountain High", the "Wall of Sound" made it more difficult to hear and appreciate Tina Turner's singing and singing talent. So, the latter was "overproduced". Some of the heavily orchestrated instrumentals on several of The Five Keys' Capitol Records recordings were "overproduced, while "Close Your Eyes" was not.

[soulster]

Well, it looks like everyone has their own definition of what over-production is. My definition leans more towards the technical end of it, as I love dense mixes with lots of things going on.

[smark21]

Well, it looks like everyone has their own definition of what over-production is. My definition leans more towards the technical end of it, as I love dense mixes with lots of things going on.

Your examples of "over production" are really better examples of "meticulously produced". Over production as it's generally used is meant as an epithet, not a complement.

[soulster]

Your examples of "over production" are really better examples of "meticulously produced". Over production as it's generally used is meant as an epithet, not a complement.

I know, but there are many who despise "meticulously produced" music too.

[sunshineonacloudyday]

Lush & meticulous productions are not so bad, IMO, if the VOICES are allowed plenty of room. Bloodstone, The Dells [[late 60s/70s) and many of the PIR artists, such as The Intruders, Harold Melvin & Bluenotes, Teddy, etc. are good examples of this I think.

I agree with Robb [[above.) As time went on and singers with voices that required multi-tracking, instrumental/synth gizmos to sound decent [[Madonna,Lisa Lisa, etc) the production overshadowed the vocal performances...

[soulster]

I don't like the vocals to override all else. I like the vocals further back in the mix, used almost like another instrument. After all, the first thing I listen for is the music itself and the sound quality first. If I hear the lyrics, that's fine, but it is not a priority. This means I like the 70s especially because they didn't move the vocals so forward in the mix like they do today. Did people forget about the music?

[sunshineonacloudyday]

"Did people forget about the music?" Evidently...When I came up we had both Good vocal performances, and real musicians playing real instruments. I'm sad there are some instruments I guess we'll never hear again in R&B: the oboe, French horn, marimba...glockenspiel[[!). How about those CASTINETS in The Impressions' "Gypsy Woman"?? There is an example of voices & music produced to equal perfection, IMO.

[sunshineonacloudyday]

...the Saxophone! Wouldn't even mind hearing some "over produced" horns these days!

[soulster]

How about those CASTINETS in The Impressions' "Gypsy Woman"??

Aw man! The Impressions! You had to go there! They were one of the first groups I ever heard as a baby! They were my father's favorite group, too, just ahead of Marvin Gaye! I still have all the original ABC-Paramount LPs and most of them now on CD. If Kent hadn't issued them back in the early 90s, I would have had to make needledrops. Too bad Universal won't reissue their albums. I'd love to have them all in hi-rez! Two of my favorite songs are "I've Been Tryin'" and "Talkin' "Bout My Baby"!

[funkcity]

Improper production might be a better term.
Earth Wind and Fire had some dense but excellent songs, arrangements and mixes.

But sometimes a song sucks and sometimes a great production will help it unless it suck real bad! . The Motown stuff had lots of instrumental density, lots of rhythm and lots of background vocals, doubled lead vocals...even 2 drummers. But its the application of the arrangements, the performances and the final mix which work in concert to create the total production. The fact that it is a hit or not should not factor into the overproduction assessment.

Britney Spears needs all the overproduction possible and that horrible sound has become...gulp...her trademark auto-tuned sound. Lousy production or correct for the application?

The Beatles reinvented their musical production styles every album...from Indian instruments to circus music to country to the Long and Winding [[jimmy webb inspired) Road.

OK a marginal tune. Titanic theme: My heart will.....Naked, the song goes nowhere.
Add big orchestral arrangement, big key change, big high notes for Celine Dion and a schitt-pot of reverb. Overproduced? phuk-ya!
Her biggest hit and that for the composer. She originally turned it down. Ha!

[sunshineonacloudyday]

I think sometimes certain songs lend themselves to "over" production. When I saw this thread, one of the first songs that came to me was The Dells version of "Whiter Shade Of Pale":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrZcM0z1i8g

I didn't remember hearing this version at the time it was released, and I later searched it out on vinyl, as I love both the song, and The Dells. But after hearing it for the first time, I was terribly dissapointed. Generally, I have no problem with a full orchestra backing a soul artist [[well...except for the OTT "Stay With Me" by Lorraine Ellison), but this orchestra nearly drowns out even Marvin Junior's voice. And the arrangement--at about the 2 min mark, a cello plays with a Jimmy Hendrix-ish guitar superimposed in the background. Very bizarre. Over-produced, badly produced, etc...LOL

I always loved the original by Procol Harum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T7WujWrn7c
[[live BBC version...OMG! that organ!!)

On Shorty Long's version [[couldn't find it on YT), the Funk Brothers and arranger Paul Riser left it to producer Long to interpret the song, without trying to out-do the original. I think Shorty's plaintive vocal and trumpet solo [[I LOVE his heartfelt ballads) works well with the song--and I can make out the lyrics, lol.

[daddyacey]

sunshineonacloudyday

I guess we'll never hear again in R&B: the oboe, French horn, marimba...glockenspiel[[!).

Check out Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings....................
"The Game Gets Old " & "Better Things To Do "
Horns are still very much alive and kicking..............

[timmyfunk]

I'm surprised no one has brought up Quincy Jones, in terms of meticulous productions. He's pretty much the Godfather of meticulous productions.

[daddyacey]

Yes , cause I just caught M.J. ,Dont Stop Till You Get Enough, on the car radio. Considering all thats going on in the track it is truly very NEATLY put together. Everything flows nicely up to when Mike goes EWWW!!! and then It all drops back to basics and starts over again. The horns never step on the strings ,the strings don't get syrupy, everything is on point. For some reason though this time , maybe the zillionth time I've heard the track ,I caught what I think are the edits from the master version that Q said was a disaster in the first test pressing.