if something like the internet existed in the 60's, Mr.Gordy wouldn't have been able to pull the s,,stuff that he pulled without being called on it..
the absence of social media didn't allow us to call 'foul' back then...
so I'll call it NOW!
Ladonna,
I agree black history is more important but Motown is a part of black history but YES to your question. Let me give you an example of how people feel about this the second one may shock you. I interviewed Earl Young who was the main drummer on a lot of hits written by Gamble and Huff. We have spoken many times and do you know what his one wish is? To be recognized in the RRHOF as a sideman. More than anything that is his one wish so his daughter will remember his legacy.
Second one - Joey Levine who was the lead singer on bubblegum hits like 1310 Fruitgum Company and others did an interview in a magazine and claimed that he sang lead on something and Ron Dante [[lead voice of the Archies ..Sugar Sugar)
saw the article and got upset. He called Joey up and said to him "You are successful now you could have at least given me credit for singing lead on that song". Here I am thinking to myself this man is in his 50s - 60s now what does he care if someone thinks Joey Levine sang lead on some song but it was important to him! When I saw that it got me to thinking how important Motown music was to me and the history. I could care less who sang on Edison LightHouse songs or the 1910 Fruitgum company but guess what...one of the members of the 1910 Fruitgum company found some blog and said he wanted to take the time to correct incorrect information that is on the net about the group. This was some bubblegum site I found a few years ago by accident. If this had been Motown or Stax I would have been more interested but hey there are bubblegummers out there who are passionate about 1910 Fruitgum Company, Kasenetz-Katz Orchestral Circus and Edison Lighthouse and all of these studio concotions. By the way he was dispelling the rumors that they were not a real band.
I think us Motown fans are not as bad as Judy Garland fans those people will kill for their queen....LOL
This historical stuff is important to them not matter what the genre!
Joey Levine was the one with the nasal voice of 1910 Fruitgum Co.
Indeed, Ron Dante was the voice of the Archies as well as the Cuff Links [["Tracy").
Another singer, Tony Burrows, sang lead for Edison Lighthouse's "Love Grows [[Where My Rosemary Goes)" [[February 1970); White Plains' "My Baby Loves Lovin'" [[March 1970); The Pipkins' novelty song "Gimme Dat Ding" [[April 1970); and The First Class' "Beach Baby" [[July 1974). He also sang lead vocals on The Brotherhood of Man's "United We Stand", which reached #10 on the UK charts and also reached #13 in the U.S. In fact, there's a whole CD devoted to him, mostly familiar songs, and I don't think any are credited to his real name!
can you imagine the reaction of sports fans if historical data were tampered with, when they can recite exact info from decades ago? there would be BLOOD!..
well, pop music fans are just as devoted as sports fans are,and NO ONE is re writing history on my watch..ya heard?
I can just imagine Gordy in the 60's saying 'no one's gonna care about this shit ten years from now"..'
well, if that was the case...SURPRISE!!
I was refering to all the behind the scenes skull duggery and back stabbing that was in progress in the Florence Ballard/Gladys Horton era..
I know things that could buy him another castle he'd never let go of..like publishing..smart man...sometimes very nasty man..
guess to 'make it' you have to be..
Yeah they were on there as were T.G. Sheppard, Jose Feliciano and Charlene![[they didn't make the broadcast version however.) Rick James elected along with Gladys Knight & the Pips to not participate. I don't know what the deal was with Teena Marie.
I do know that line about having Adam Ant on would bring in younger views was bullshit. You see, I was in that 18-34 year old demographic at that time and no one I knew was anxious to see Adam Ant on a Motown music special!
The network was NBC and I promise you no at NBC pushed for Adam Ant to be on that program as he was still largely unknown in America by that time having just made his television debut on American Bandstand a few months earlier in 1982! Linda Rondstat was considered only because she had some modest success covering a few of Smokey Robinson's songs. That was Motowns' and Suzanne DePasse's idea to have her on in an attempt to show Motown music's crossover and to which depths it had gone in the general American Pop Culture. Heck, they could have and should have had RARE EARTH on who were far more famous and authentic than Adam Friggin Ant! It was a dumb decision to do it that way by Suzanne DePasse in my opinion!
Kenneth, NO! The special you are thinking was "Motown Returns to the Apollo" from 1985 when Motown help celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Apollo theater. You are right they had Boy George on, as well as George Michaels but at least both of them could sing! Find me someone, anyone that can name an Adam Ant song?
Stephanie, ever been curious as to why the sudden switch to Wanda Rogers singing the lead on Marvelettes records after they had been having more than a reasonable amount of success with Gladys in the lead? I know you have heard the argument as to why once hits are scored with a particular lead voice that the company mandated that that "voice" would be considered the "sound" of a particular group? Not so in the case of the Marvelettes, huh? LOL!
Haven't you ever wondered......just a little bit?
Marv: Berry did own the Jobete catalog for a number of years after he had sold Motown in '88. Check out this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/02/bu...own-songs.html
I believe he sold the second half of the catalog to EMI a few years ago.
Stephanie: I don't mind you talking about Motown 25 at all. I don't get why some members of this forum tend to get irked when other members choose to discuss past events. The typical response I see on here over and over again is, "It's time to move on". I respectfully disagree with that. As someone else pointed out already, this forum functions to serve that very purpose...discussing the past, whether that be music, music history, etc. There are so many Supremes and Diana Ross discussions on this forum day in and day out, many of which relate to the old tired topic of "reunions", I think we should be permitted to have at least one discussion on The Marvelettes. Nothing wrong with that.
I don't think anyone feels Motown 25 shouldn't be discussed, or anything else for that matter; I think it is the bitterness that some fans express that many feel should be, by now, let go of, and moved away from; not the discussion.
How in the heck does those two subjects relate? How are you going to decide which historical facts are worthy of knowing and which ones are not? There is more than enough room in the realm of African American History [[which is actually an important part of American History in general) to include it all!
My Champ! You said that much better than I could have, but dont' forget I am older than you.........hehehehhe! Just kidding, you make a great point Carlo. I think folks that continually use the term, "it's time to move on" do that for selfish reason that I don't even want to waste time on trying to analyze at the moment.
I'm not sure if I would necessarily call it "bitterness". It's an opinion. I share the same opinion as Stephanie, Marv, Jimi and others. I believe that The Marvelettes were mistreated by Motown. People can say what they want, but the writing is on the wall. The fact that Motown's pioneer group wasn't even invited to sit in the audience at Motown 25 speaks volumes. This is just one example of many.
Marv, earlier in the discussion you had mentioned how in the 80's there was a photo of Diana and Mary on display at the Motown Museum and Flo was cut out of the middle...it must have been the same one that was featured in the Diana Ross & the Supremes 1968 tour program. Flo was cut out of the middle to reflect the lineup change. I guess someone had the stupid idea of using that exact same photo in the museum.
Last edited by carlo; 08-13-2011 at 08:31 PM.
Here is another thing people need to consider that Glady's touched upon in that interview and that being because of the Marvelettes early success, Motown was able to afford things like Artist Development ,etc, etc that all of it's classic artists benefitted from! When Diana Ross demanded that Berry Gordy go and find Gladys Horton and make her sit upfront when the Supremes played the Copa for that first time, Diane never even gave it a thought that had it not been for Gladys and her group the Marvelettes, the Supremes may not have received that "extra polish" that allowed them to play places like the Copa with great success.
Gladys, being the kind hearted person that she was , never understood why it was so important to Diana Ross that she be present to watch Diane, Mary and Florence on their big night!
Carlo, I am glad you brought that up. It may have been the same picture from that tour program. I need to look at it. [[maybe you could scan it sometime, but don't go through a lot of trouble) But the "doctored" picture displayed at the museum came out of a box along with a lot other stuff left over from the graphic arts dept, or whatever they called the dept that designed the album covers in those days. I just remember we had to move a lot boxes upstairs one time. Thinking about it now, I don't know the exact person that butchered that picture,but I have a good idea when and why they did it now.
Last edited by marv2; 08-13-2011 at 08:39 PM.
ross wanted Gladys there, and tried to get Martha Reeves there as well, to rub it in their faces..."look at ME!!"..as Mary says,"she's always been that way"..
but in effect, she was running the company, and was obviously threatened by/competitive with the other girls;
she didn't demand for Marvin Gaye,Levi Stubbs or David Ruffin to be dragged to the show
When it came to Martha and the Vandellas, the Marvelettes, and other groups at Motown I dont know why Miss Ross was so eager for them to see her and what she accomplished. By this time the Supremes were at the helm at Motown and she just had to prove to them she was on top. They were no longer the no hit Supremes I think she wanted to rub it in their faces that she had Berry and could do what she wanted [[to a certain extent). Motown didnt make her this way though she was always competitive according to those who knew her and I guess it carried on into her performances and her character at Motown. One thing I will say about the Marvelettes is that you never heard anyone bad mouthing them they were pretty nice women. I wish there was footage of them performing at other clubs other than the Apollo. I have talked to two people who have seen them in the latter 60s and both parties said they were great!
Jimi, you know I had never thought about that. She didn't demand that the fellas be there [[although I can highly imagine David Ruffin telling her to flip off LOL!), it is a very interesting point you made. She apparently DID want to rub it in the faces of Gladys and Martha. Wow........
Stephanie, you just made me think of something. Has there or were there anything you've read or heard about the other ladies such as Mary Wells, the Marvelettes , Martha & the Vandellas or even Florence or Mary for that matter , acting like that towards fellow Motown Artists?
Last edited by marv2; 08-13-2011 at 10:20 PM.
I was a kid when I got to see the Marvelettes perform. It was 1966 and by then it was just Gladys, Katherine and Wanda. I remember them singing in a park concert, City Park [[Toledo, Ohio). My brother remembers much more of that show than I do unfortunately.
Yeah, it's true. I heard Kat makes an amazing pound cake!
It's too bad these ladies didn't have better personal management who didn't have ties to Motown. Some of the grievances are absolutely legitimate, others seem a little, shall we say, perhaps naive. The example I'm thinking of is that in Marc Taylor's book, he describes Katherine's experience writing the song "I Don't Want to Do Wrong," which Gladys Knight & the Pips recorded, and that Kat was very upset that she had to share writing credits with others who contributed very little to the song. After that she said, she never wanted to write again. It seems a shame to give up a gift like that - I mean that was a great song and could have been a second career for her - for that reason. Someone who was more connected to the music business could have advised her that this is common "stock and trade" in the industry, that producers take writers' credits, people who add a line or two take credit, and others do nothing but bargain for credit somehow. I say this is naive on her part not because it isn't a bad practice which she shouldn't have abhorred, but because if she'd had a little thicker skin or a strong management team, she could have weathered this and then gone on to greater success in the related field of songwriting.
I honestly don't know, was that really the only song she wrote as it seems to say in the book? I would hate to think so.
Kenneth,
I couldn't have said it better, and, yes, to my knowledge, that is the only song she wrote.
Marc T.
I've said it many times and I'll say it again:'
I love Diana Ross, she got me into Motown in the first place in 1964,as I was about to become a teenager, and I even love her combative antics, it's human nature;
but I don''t love an unfair fight, where the other parties have their hands tied behind their backs[[by Berry Gordy) because then, it's not really a fight, it's bullying..
Ross had to suffer with 'no hits" for several years while Martha and Gladys had big hits,and I'm sure the childhood trauma of never being "as good as" her sister, the doctor[[everything stems from childhood,believe me, I know) led her to not accept second best ever again...and she found a way to do that..and that drive turned her into....DIANA ROSS!!
[[but I don't like the unfair fight part of the program...not a bit)
and I don't doubt that she helped tip the scales ,unfavorably, for the other female artists at Motown, not a single doubt in my mind...
but I still love her!..what can I say..
I'm with you Jimi-if not for Diana Ross' "artistic temperament," Nobody'd be talking about her today! I like bad girls, anyway! I'd follow Diana Ross around, waiting for something awful to happen!
True Story: I was shoved outta the way by Diana Ross back in the 80's at a nightclub in Manhattan. I still brag to people that I've been shoved out the way by Diana Ross!
and let's face it, you know that while Taraborelli details all the shocking behavior of "Call Her Miss Ross",he lives for it; he loves every second of it..I know i do;
I remember an interview with Ru Paul where he said"I read "Call Her Miss Ross",and I loved Diana more after that, and then I read Mary Wilson's book, and I loved Diana EVEN MORE after THAT!"...
right on, Ru Paul!
Me too! I loved those books!
By the way, if you all haven't read Boy George's memoirs "Take it Like a Man"--you should! Lots of Motown stories in there! The book is trashy and hilarious--and his stories from "Motown Returns to the Apollo" are priceless.
while we're plugging fun, trashy books full of industry dirt[[but sadly, nothing on Motown), there's the new auto bio "Lick Me: How I Became Cherry Vanilla" by Warhol/Bowie/new wave superstar Cherry Vanilla..
try it, you'll like it..trust me..
she was the first female night club DJ in NYC in the 60's and she DOES talk about playing Marvelettes records in the big NY clubs
Oh goody! I'll order that book right now! Thanks for the trashy tip!
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