Diana and the "Diana" [[1980) album

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

If if it was issued as a single in the U.S., it didn't chart in the Hot 100 at all. By the time a third single from that album could be issued, Motown had already moved on to "It's My Turn".

But they DID still had time to release a third single, which was why I posed the question. They could have resumed 'diana' singles after "It's My Turn", because the 'diana' LP outlasted that song.

Great choices, guys! I confess that "Give Up" is another choice for me, though I think it was used as the flip to "I'm Coming Out", so I mentally disqualified it.

'Have Fun [[Again)' is very commercial too!
*****************
NEW Question: Do you guys think that when Diana's contract came up for renewal in November 1980, and she didn't immediately re-sign, that Berry stopped promoting 'diana' so as to downplay her commercial upswing? In other words, did he not want to make her appear 'too' successful to his competitors who were now wooing his star?

[soulster]

there were no specific rules stated..and the end result is the same, or there would have been a "Baby Love" album..

My post was in response to Jimi's post about how he believed the practice of issuing more than two singles per album didn't start until Michael Jackson's "Off The Wall" or "Thriller", which was starting in 1979. I pointed out that the practice reached as far back as at least 1975. The trick is that the songs had to have been pulled off the album after it's release. I think you just found an opportunity to turn this into another Supremes thread.

[soulster]

All in all, "My Old Piano" has been recognized as a hit, single, deep cut, or otherwise. I believe it has shown up on at least one of her "best of" CDs.

[thisoldheart]

think the reason "diana" was so popular was because almost all of her other albums were a mash up of different writers and producers, and all most deffinately geared to her las vegas middle of the road audience while she was better known previously [[with the supremes) as a pop/ rock/ light r&b singer. when she hooked up with bernard & edwards she was more in touch with her hit radio sound. while the album is deffinately not a motown sound album, it appealed to contempory tastes as she once did. chic never had good lyrics, but luckily the chic sound was all about syncopation. the vocal was equal to the lead guitar and bass that rodgers and edwards provided. so the lyrics were not as important as they were with other writer/producers. personally i would not have screwed around with the original mix. bernard & edwards were at the top of their game. but, luckily ross's sharp diction worked well with both mixes. ms. ross has always needed strong writing and producing and therefore always did her best work with h/d/h, ashford & simpson, and the chic organization. she is adrift without strong outside direction.

[soulster]

I think it's simpler than that. I think it's because her previous albums before "diana" were overwrought with sappy, boring ballads, and "diana" had some funk.

[thisoldheart]

so very true, soulster! that's what i was trying to say in a diplomatic way, with a few reasons thrown in for good measure!

[soulster]

The only exceptions were "The Boss" and "Baby, It's Me".

[skooldem1]

Don't all singers need strong writing and producing? You think she always needs "outside" direction? She made the call to have the album remixed. Excellent decision by Diana- to not only seek out the CHIC organization, but to have it sound the way she wanted it to sound. This woman knows what she wants. Whether those decisions result in commercial success is secondary to her personal satisfaction with her product. I read recently on some blog/website where some musician who was working with Diana said that they were amazed at just how much she knows about what she likes and what she doesn't. They said her "ear" for music was excellent.

[soulster]

Just another reason she left Motown.

[jobeterob]

Did My Old Piano make it onto All The Great Hits?

[soulster]

Yup. Sure did.

[thisoldheart]

Don't all singers need strong writing and producing? You think she always needs "outside" direction? She made the call to have the album remixed. Excellent decision by Diana- to not only seek out the CHIC organization, but to have it sound the way she wanted it to sound. This woman knows what she wants. Whether those decisions result in commercial success is secondary to her personal satisfaction with her product. I read recently on some blog/website where some musician who was working with Diana said that they were amazed at just how much she knows about what she likes and what she doesn't. They said her "ear" for music was excellent.

i certainly don't think ms. ross "has a good ear". her career post h/d/h both with the supremes and as a solo artist is certainly more miss than hit! i do, however, think she is a very good singer and certainly an entertainer of particular note. since her first hit records it has always been almost impossible not to watch her. she has charisma. her taste in what she should be singing needs a very strong producer.

[skooldem1]

There were referring to her knowldege of "music" and how it should sound- in a live band setting.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

i certainly don't think ms. ross "has a good ear". her career post h/d/h both with the supremes and as a solo artist is certainly more miss than hit! i do, however, think she is a very good singer and certainly an entertainer of particular note. since her first hit records it has always been almost impossible not to watch her. she has charisma. her taste in what she should be singing needs a very strong producer.

More miss than hit? Let's be realistic. Until 1987, she'd only had FOUR singles miss the Hot 100 in her solo career. And she racked up the most #1's for a female SOLO artist, apart from The Supremes, that lasted until 1988 [[whitney).

The only serious misstep I think she made regarding an album in the 80s was with 'Eaten Alive'. If anything, THAT album was in dire need of a remix! She actually should have recut her leads, ditched Barry Gibb's backing vocals, and brought in The Waters to do new backing vox. Oh, and remixed the whole album....AND....left off the dreadful title cut....which would have necessited renaming the album itself!

If that sounds like I hate Eaten Alive [[the LP), I don't. I actually think the other 9 songs were real gems. The Gibb Bros always bring the songs! But the production lacks the warmth and beauty of Streisand's "Guilty" album. The songs deserved better.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

No record company is going to issue two singles by the same artist simultaneously. They only seem to know how to promote one at a time. Not only that, from what I have read, the Motown people were never too happy with that album. To themj, it just wasn't Diana Ross, and they didn't really know how to market it. It's just fortunate that it took off anyway. I believe Motown's over-controlling philosophy, their micro-management, what worked for them in the 60s, failed them in the 80s.

Releasing two singles at the same time worked for Linda Ronstadt:
15. BLUE BAYOU
Date: 9/10/1977 - Run: 84-74-64-51-40-36-32-21-16-11- 9-8-5-4-*3*-3-3- [[17 wsf)
07/01/1978: 3-13-26-41-56-98 [[23/8 wks) UK:#35/4

16. IT'S SO EASY
Date: 10/8/1977 - Run: 77-65-49-34-29-22-16- 10-9-*5*-5-5-5-15-30-57-59-97 [[18/6 wks)

[jobeterob]

Did she not have 3 singles charting for a while? Upside Down, I'm Coming and It's My Turn or was one of them Endless Love? As I recall she was Billboards #1 artist overall in 1980.

[marv2]

I am curious to know how many people in 1980 were discussing who the #1 artist overall was in 1948, 32 years earlier........

[soulster]

Releasing two singles at the same time worked for Linda Ronstadt:
15. BLUE BAYOU
Date: 9/10/1977 - Run: 84-74-64-51-40-36-32-21-16-11- 9-8-5-4-*3*-3-3- [[17 wsf)
07/01/1978: 3-13-26-41-56-98 [[23/8 wks) UK:#35/4

16. IT'S SO EASY
Date: 10/8/1977 - Run: 77-65-49-34-29-22-16- 10-9-*5*-5-5-5-15-30-57-59-97 [[18/6 wks)

You got me!

[RossHolloway]

I just loaded this cd and The Boss into my car this past week. The thing that really stood out is that both these albums are good because of their cohesiveness. Both albums can be played from start to finish without skipping any tracks.

[thisoldheart]

More miss than hit? Let's be realistic. Until 1987, she'd only had FOUR singles miss the Hot 100 in her solo career. And she racked up the most #1's for a female SOLO artist, apart from The Supremes, that lasted until 1988 [[whitney).

The only serious misstep I think she made regarding an album in the 80s was with 'Eaten Alive'. If anything, THAT album was in dire need of a remix! She actually should have recut her leads, ditched Barry Gibb's backing vocals, and brought in The Waters to do new backing vox. Oh, and remixed the whole album....AND....left off the dreadful title cut....which would have necessited renaming the album itself!

If that sounds like I hate Eaten Alive [[the LP), I don't. I actually think the other 9 songs were real gems. The Gibb Bros always bring the songs! But the production lacks the warmth and beauty of Streisand's "Guilty" album. The songs deserved better.

whenever i write i never take into consideration chart positions of records, record sales, or awards when considering the strength of a song or album. if i were to do that, for example, i would not be able to include two excellent supremes songs "love is like an itchin' in my heart", or "forever came today", but would have to include "endless love". charts, sales, and awards are marketing ploys to make an uninformed and lazy public buy usually inferior products. if one truly loves motown music it is impossible not to make a lengthy list of songs that never charted.

art and commerce are two usually opposing forces!

[[and please let's not start a discussion with the name whitney houston, other than to note her singular destruction of the popular ballad. there was an era prior to ms. houston when listening to a ballad was quite wonderful. since ms. houston almost every ballad must be song with such histrionics that a listener feels beaten up before the one minute mark. remember there were once subtle singers like motown's silky smooth brenda holloway. by the way, ms. houston sold records, topped charts, and won awards. ms. holloway did not!)

[jobeterob]

Chart positions never influence what you like or don't like.

But for music history, they are definitive other than in our heads.

Music history has to take into account Whitney Houston and Diana Ross. But I had to laugh at the line "her singular destruction of the popular ballad"........lol; wasn't it just the times that did that? There was a moment where the screaming and yelling at the end of the ballad were the be all and the end all of a song. Fortunately, that time seems to be completely gone again.

Whitney's voice might be gone but her position in music history is sealed.

[Hotspurman]

This probably isn't the best time to mention that I quite like Whitney and Mariah.... Although I have an unhealthy interest in the charts and sales figures and awards, it does not dictate what I like or dislike. I've now got 33,000 tracks on my ipod, and I reckon 30,000 never charted anywhere. Take GQ who hit with Disco Nights [[Rock Freak) - great track, but listen to their earlier incarnation Rhythm Makers and the album Funk Grooves. Or The Notations, Eddie Russ, Randy Brown, Donny Hathaway etc etc etc.

[thisoldheart]

Chart positions never influence what you like or don't like. But for music history, they are definitive other than in our heads.

chart possitions only define possible record sales, and perhaps the number of times a record may have been played. even those numbers are often desputable. tell me please what this has to do with the intrinsic quality of music? ... and isn't that what loving music is about?

that is where intelligent criticism comes in.

[smark21]

chart possitions only define possible record sales, and perhaps the number of times a record may have been played. even those numbers are often desputable. tell me please what this has to do with the intrinsic quality of music? ... and isn't that what loving music is about?

that is where intelligent criticism comes in.

Exactly. All sales have to do with one's place in music history is that it has to with one's place in the history of the music business, which is different from the history of music as an art form. If I recall my classical music history, Beethoven had a lot of difficulty getting commissions for his symphonies, yet his music survived the test of time while the work of the most populuar composers of his time are now forgotten. I suspect Whitney Houston and her music will be forgotten 200 years from now.

[jobeterob]

Yes, I do agree with those last two posts.

But I would add that without popularity of some significant degree, your artistry can't be appreciated even if it is superior.

[soulster]

This probably isn't the best time to mention that I quite like Whitney and Mariah.... Although I have an unhealthy interest in the charts and sales figures and awards, it does not dictate what I like or dislike. I've now got 33,000 tracks on my ipod, and I reckon 30,000 never charted anywhere. Take GQ who hit with Disco Nights [[Rock Freak) - great track, but listen to their earlier incarnation Rhythm Makers and the album Funk Grooves. Or The Notations, Eddie Russ, Randy Brown, Donny Hathaway etc etc etc.

I do enjoy chart data, but I like what I like, regardless of how well or poor a song did. Chart positions do not influence what my taste in music is, although I did listen to a lot of radio back in the day. Some may say I like top 40 because it was spoon-fed to me, but that's not it. But, unlike most of you guys, I don't get into really obscure stuff. I always felt that those who make it a point to remind everyone of how a certain artist was "better" before they got famous were somehow elitist. I'm not talking about anyone here.

I also like Whitney and Mariah.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

I Will Always Love You by Whitney Houston is sublime, I don't care what y'all say and...I would have the same opinion if it had peaked at #77.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

You got me!

......................

[Hotspurman]

I wish a lot of the stuff I like wasn't obscure - it would mean more people were in to them the same way I was. I wasn't in to the Northern Soul scene, not because I doubt I'd have loved the music [[I probably would), but because I was 'down South', where most of the clubs I went to played funk music, a style I particularly liked. If I had got into Northern, I'd more than likely be skint by now, given how obsessive about music I am, having to own all of the things I like. But then again, even the style I was into had its advantages, such as getting into Crown Heights Affair and Kool & The Gang before they went overtly commerical. And there are items from their respective commercial repertoires I like, such as You Gave Me Love and Celebration respectively.

Back to Diana, however, and having finally got around to listening to the delixe edition of 'diana', I can't hear what was wrong with the original Chic mix of the album - despite what Frankie Crocker told her, it would not have ended her career. That's just a Crocker shit.

[soulster]

Well, Frankie Crocker was full of shit!

Overall, I also prefer the harder, raw funk jams and hot-buttered soul rather than the slick, smooth Northers-type soul. Sorry Motown, but i'd rather listen to an afternoon of Stax than Motown.

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

I wish a lot of the stuff I like wasn't obscure - it would mean more people were in to them the same way I was. I wasn't in to the Northern Soul scene, not because I doubt I'd have loved the music [[I probably would), but because I was 'down South', where most of the clubs I went to played funk music, a style I particularly liked. If I had got into Northern, I'd more than likely be skint by now, given how obsessive about music I am, having to own all of the things I like. But then again, even the style I was into had its advantages, such as getting into Crown Heights Affair and Kool & The Gang before they went overtly commerical. And there are items from their respective commercial repertoires I like, such as You Gave Me Love and Celebration respectively.

Back to Diana, however, and having finally got around to listening to the delixe edition of 'diana', I can't hear what was wrong with the original Chic mix of the album - despite what Frankie Crocker told her, it would not have ended her career. That's just a Crocker shit.

Well, some of the vocal takes used on the Chic mixes were VERY different to the released vocal takes - though some were just as good. But specifically, the CHIC version of "My Old Piano" contains - IMO - what may have been the legendary session in which Nile and Nard told Diana that she was singing flat.

What isn't often wondered aloud is whether or not Diana re-recorded some of her vocals for the Terrana mixes. I think she "may" *possibly* have recut a couple of them. Either that, or Terrana red-edited the vocal takes to make comp vocals of each song. IF he did so, in doing that, he was keeping with the Gordy vision of how Diana should sound: crisp diction without much improvisation and riffing. Nile and Nard liked everything "raw" and organic and it sounds like they used complete vocal takes on the songs, rather than comps. I liked hearing some of her more 'raw' vocals on Give Up, Have Fun Again, etc.

It sounds like My Old Piano was pretty radically remixed, and the vocals also sound brighter. And if you listen to both mixes, the released version is sped up. I prefer the released version and can see why it hit hard in Europe, but it is VERY different from the original version, even containing new keyboard elements

I also wonder if Terrana RSO'd the final mix. That was another thing that CHIC would not have done, in keeping with their organic approach to recording. They were so tight that they didn't need it anyway.

[ejluther]

I also wonder if Terrana RSO'd the final mix.

RSO'd? What does that mean?

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

RSO'd? What does that mean?

I might have used the wrong term, but I believe it was a practice back in the 80s whereby an engineer/mixer/producer would take "live" music, meaning all real instruments, and digitally make it the same pacing throughout the record. Does that make sense? Like, with a band like Chic, recording a take, it may not be as precise tempo-wise as a synthesized recording. Usually those subtle differences in tempo would go unnoticed to the ear.

If what I wrote is incorrect or not quite what I meant, I apologize as I am not a music expert. It's just a term I've heard and had explained to me, so I'm explaining it back second hand, and I might be a bit off.

[soulster]

Are you talking about pitch correction?

[Sugarchilehoneybaby]

Are you talking about pitch correction?

No....I guess I'm not describing what I mean very well....or if there even is such a thing as what I described. LOL! I apologize; I'm not a technician.