Mary Wilson 1971

[jobeterob]

4.11.2024 #SUPREMES "Throughout the summer [of 1971] we kept up our frenzied pace, crisscrossing the country. Because the Supremes lacked a monster hit, initial enthusiasm for us started to fade. Sometimes standing onstage, even amid cheers and applause, I sensed the skepticism of some people in the crowd. It was as if we had to prove ourselves, over and over again. There always seemed to be someone sitting out there in the dark, arms crossed, whose face said, "Show me." I fully believed we could. - Mary Wilson [Photo: The Supremes, Summer 1971]


The above is a recent Facebook post.

Some of the real fans forget how difficult it was for the Supremes. We talk of Up The Ladder being a huge hit getting to #10 and Nothing But Heartaches being a flop at #11 and My World is Empty not being a big hit at #5.

Also you can see on Facebook there are people that think the Supremes ended when Diana left.

So there were real challenges.

[blackguy69]

It’s a passage from Supremes Faith. I saw the post earlier

[sup_fan]

Ladder and Stoned Love both were huge sellers and high charting singles. SL outsold nearly all of the 60s era hits, except for LC, Someday. and Ladder easily sold over 1M. it was after those that things started to cool. NJ just didn't go as far as hoped, the albums weren't selling. there was a big level of excitement around the new group in 70 but there just wasn't enough push/follow up. everyone was talking about the 'NEW' supremes and jean's exciting new vocals and M and C having a larger role. but newness fades. and the group/motown just wasn't being attentive enough with keeping things fresh

[bradsupremes]

Ladder and Stoned Love both were huge sellers and high charting singles. SL outsold nearly all of the 60s era hits, except for LC, Someday. and Ladder easily sold over 1M. it was after those that things started to cool. NJ just didn't go as far as hoped, the albums weren't selling. there was a big level of excitement around the new group in 70 but there just wasn't enough push/follow up. everyone was talking about the 'NEW' supremes and jean's exciting new vocals and M and C having a larger role. but newness fades. and the group/motown just wasn't being attentive enough with keeping things fresh

"Nathan Jones" sold 1 million. Despite stalling at #16 on Billboard, it went top ten in Cashbox and Record World on both the pop and R&B charts and it went to #5 in the UK. Not sure why it was harder to chart in Billboard, but the fact it did well on the other charts proves they were still doing well. It was "Touch" that the problems began. I think if "Here Comes The Sunrise" was chosen as the follow up single as initially planned I think they would have continued with chart success.

[jobeterob]

https://chartmasters.org/the-supreme...n%20US%20sales.

Here’s a chart masters page on Supremes singles sale - interesting

[gman]

If there are 10 other records out that week that sell more than yours does...you are peaking at 11. Nathan Jones was a great record....thankfully the UK charts were kinder to the Jean Terrell era Supremes....

[Ollie9]

If there are 10 other records out that week that sell more than yours does...you are peaking at 11. Nathan Jones was a great record....thankfully the UK charts were kinder to the Jean Terrell era Supremes....

Indeed they were with five top ten hits, and almost six with “River Deep Mountain High” reaching #11. They easily could have scored more had a more commercial song than “Touch” been released and a better album then “JW”.

[sup_fan]

"Nathan Jones" sold 1 million. Despite stalling at #16 on Billboard, it went top ten in Cashbox and Record World on both the pop and R&B charts and it went to #5 in the UK. Not sure why it was harder to chart in Billboard, but the fact it did well on the other charts proves they were still doing well. It was "Touch" that the problems began. I think if "Here Comes The Sunrise" was chosen as the follow up single as initially planned I think they would have continued with chart success.

yeah i only really use Billboard to judge a record but BB pop is also by far the largest and most prominent of the charts. so i agree it's not the only one but it's typically the one with the most weight. similar to the other genre charts - sure BB dance or r&b are important but the pop chart is the one that really [[at least historically and in the eras we're all discussing) measures that success of a single.

when you compare that various early 70s releases, NJ was moving up the charts similarly to Everybody. it wasn't doing quite the jumps that Ladder or SL did. it's close - certainly not labeling it a dud. but it just didn't seem to quite latch on like the others. And while it did sell 1 million, my guess is that it took a bit longer to do so.

also there was an interview somewhere with the girls, asking them about their thoughts on the song and they had really thought THIS was gonna be the mega hit. they were sure this would top SL and so the songs expectations were even higher. i wonder if, because everyone had so much excitement and hope for the song, that was why no further singles were pulled from NW. sure the album had other great tunes but here comes along this sure-fire hit called NJ - it's so new, so fresh, so hot. let's just move on and jump on this one

[mindful1]

https://chartmasters.org/the-supreme...n%20US%20sales.

Here’s a chart masters page on Supremes singles sale - interesting

Thanks for posting this link, lots of information that puts their record in perspective!

[jobeterob]

Thanks for posting this link, lots of information that puts their record in perspective!

That site is about as good as it gets

It definitely puts Ross and the Supremes and their influence in perspective

[BayouMotownMan]

According to Motown, in their original releases the only Jean Terrell led Supremes single to hit the million mark was Stoned Love

Up The Ladder was over 800K in sales, Nathan was about the same. Everybody and Floy Joy exceeded 500K in sales as did River Deep

That's not to say these records were not hits...they were.

[jobeterob]

Yes they did not badly - better than the Miracles without Smokey - I think. Better than the Pips without Gladys.

As someone said, they veered into uncharted territory with Touch, Jimmy Webb and Pedro - and gradually everything fell apart and they lost the interest of their record company.

[bradsupremes]

Yes they did not badly - better than the Miracles without Smokey - I think. Better than the Pips without Gladys.

As someone said, they veered into uncharted territory with Touch, Jimmy Webb and Pedro - and gradually everything fell apart and they lost the interest of their record company.

Not just them, but many of the classic Motown acts were no longer of interest - Four Tops, Vandellas, Miracles, Gladys & the Pips, Jr. Walker, Temptations, and then the Jackson 5. This all occurred during the move out west and the shifted focus toward film with Diana in Lady Sings The Blues. Other than Stevie and Marvin who found success, it seems everything Motown was falling apart. Some jumped ship because it got bad.

[jobeterob]

Not just them, but many of the classic Motown acts were no longer of interest - Four Tops, Vandellas, Miracles, Gladys & the Pips, Jr. Walker, Temptations, and then the Jackson 5. This all occurred during the move out west and the shifted focus toward film with Diana in Lady Sings The Blues. Other than Stevie and Marvin who found success, it seems everything Motown was falling apart. Some jumped ship because it got bad.

Also the 70’s were the era of the singer songwriter so the groups lost ground

[daviddh]

just a point. dians debute did well as well as Touch Me in 1973 but the other albums barely sold 200,000 copies,.it wasnt until ,DR76 , that Diana Ross hit a strong album again , but it was like playing checkers with her albums, sometimes she got a king ,sometimes not,

[jobeterob]

just a point. dians debute did well as well as Touch Me in 1973 but the other albums barely sold 200,000 copies,.it wasnt until ,DR76 , that Diana Ross hit a strong album again , but it was like playing checkers with her albums, sometimes she got a king ,sometimes not,

And the biggest of all, the Lady Soundtrack

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

I remember Mary saying that the Jean-led Supremes got boos at some outdoor music festival.

Well, if they went on and performed their Copa setlist, I'm not surprised. Were the New Supremes a cabaret act or a pop group?

Though they could have still done some supper-club shows, they should really have remodelled themselves as a pure pop-group in the main to try and attract the attention of a younger audience.

And - sorry Jean - that set-list would have included quite a few 60's Supremes hits.

[blackguy69]

The only time I ever heard of them being booed is the infamous MSG show

I remember Mary saying that the Jean-led Supremes got boos at some outdoor music festival.

Well, if they went on and performed their Copa setlist, I'm not surprised. Were the New Supremes a cabaret act or a pop group?

Though they could have still done some supper-club shows, they should really have remodelled themselves as a pure pop-group in the main to try and attract the attention of a younger audience.

And - sorry Jean - that set-list would have included quite a few 60's Supremes hits.

[bradsupremes]

I remember Mary saying that the Jean-led Supremes got boos at some outdoor music festival.

Well, if they went on and performed their Copa setlist, I'm not surprised. Were the New Supremes a cabaret act or a pop group?

Though they could have still done some supper-club shows, they should really have remodelled themselves as a pure pop-group in the main to try and attract the attention of a younger audience.

And - sorry Jean - that set-list would have included quite a few 60's Supremes hits.

This is why I don't understand what was so difficult about having two shows. One that was strictly the hits for the teen/general public and the other being the nightclub act engagements. The Hollywood Bowl show in 1967 appeared to be specially crafted for that crowd as nearly all of their hits were sung with only one or two MOR songs included. I don't know why they just didn't keep doing that. There was no need to condense Jean's hits unto a medley either. No wonder she got tired of things. Plus Gil bringing back the Farewell charts during 1972 was just plain dumb.

[sup_fan]

I remember Mary saying that the Jean-led Supremes got boos at some outdoor music festival.

Well, if they went on and performed their Copa setlist, I'm not surprised. Were the New Supremes a cabaret act or a pop group?

Though they could have still done some supper-club shows, they should really have remodelled themselves as a pure pop-group in the main to try and attract the attention of a younger audience.

And - sorry Jean - that set-list would have included quite a few 60's Supremes hits.

i don't think Mary was the one that mentioned it but some fans. it was the Operation PUSH show in fall 72. and if my memory serves me correctly the fans didn't really say they were loudly boo'ed but that the audience wasn't thrilled. the audios for a few of the songs have emerged. i don't hear booing

[sup_fan]

This is why I don't understand what was so difficult about having two shows. One that was strictly the hits for the teen/general public and the other being the nightclub act engagements. The Hollywood Bowl show in 1967 appeared to be specially crafted for that crowd as nearly all of their hits were sung with only one or two MOR songs included. I don't know why they just didn't keep doing that. There was no need to condense Jean's hits unto a medley either. No wonder she got tired of things. Plus Gil bringing back the Farewell charts during 1972 was just plain dumb.

completely agree - all of the charts were all done and paid for for songs like Ladder, EGTR, NJ, Sunshine, YWSSL, River Deep, Touch. so it certainly couldn't have been hard to leave those in for specific engagements

i do think when they worked with Smokey and Stevie they should have really hyped that up in their shows. a fun medley of that producer's big hits would have been a nice tie in and would have helped draw attention to the album and releases.

[BayouMotownMan]

Yes, the Jean led group did get some geers at one of the fundraisers, I don't remember if it was Save The Children or Operation Push or one of those types of things. Some of the Stax acts were there and performed in their funky denims while the Supremes came out in feathers, sequins, did some of the older material and then the For Once In My Life/Cabaret medley. It did not go over to a mostly African American audience.

This unnerved Jean moreso than Mary and Lynda, though all were upset. It only served to prove to Jean that despite her best efforts she was guiding a sinking ship.

[Motown Eddie]

Yes, the Jean led group did get some geers at one of the fundraisers, I don't remember if it was Save The Children or Operation Push or one of those types of things. Some of the Stax acts were there and performed in their funky denims while the Supremes came out in feathers, sequins, did some of the older material and then the For Once In My Life/Cabaret medley. It did not go over to a mostly African American audience.

This unnerved Jean moreso than Mary and Lynda, though all were upset. It only served to prove to Jean that despite her best efforts she was guiding a sinking ship.

Mary Wilson's book Supreme Faith mentions a show in Washington D.C. where the audience started to leave just as the show ended [and before the group had time to do their Encore segment]. This led The Supremes to come out and say "hey wait we've one more song for you". That along with the reception they got at the Save The Children show had to be demoralizing.

[sup_fan]

Mary Wilson's book Supreme Faith mentions a show in Washington D.C. where the audience started to leave just as the show ended [and before the group had time to do their Encore segment]. This led The Supremes to come out and say "hey wait we've one more song for you". That along with the reception they got at the Save The Children show had to be demoralizing.

and if Jean was trying to fight/push internal forces at motown to do things differently but was not getting anywhere with them, that too had to be demoralizing.

i've always wondered who it was in the 70s that was really in charge of the show. clearly Berry wasn't highly involved. but some sort of management team within motown [[Gil i guess?) was selecting the material and building out arrangements. and he/they were pretty stuck in the old image. i've also wondered if Mary was really pushing them hard to modernize too or if she was sort of stuck with status quo too.

[BobbyC]

Mary said she could tell people were sitting there, arms folded, saying "show me." I'm pretty sure Diana Ross felt that exact same pressure every time she stepped on stage in 1970. "Let's see if Diana Ross can make it on her own" was the joke, but with most humor, it was based in fact.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Mary Wilson's book Supreme Faith mentions a show in Washington D.C.

Yes, my comment about booing [[or was it just disinterest?) at the show came from Supreme Faith memories.

With 'Up', 'Stoned', 'Nathan' and 'River' they had a decent bunch of hits to base a live show on, but if they had come out to a music festival opening with 'If My Friends Could See Me Now' I might have booed or at least left my seat to go to the beer truck.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Mary was always my favorite, but I have to say that I think she was locked into the past. There was no guidance from Motown so I am sure that Mary thought this is what was successful in the past, this is what we are known for.
Jean just did not connect to audiences at all. Even on TV, Mary and Cindy both exhibited far more charisma than Jean. I guess she felt that she had a voice and that was all that was needed. She was definitely wrong. Plus, I don't understand why there was tension between Jean and Mary. I guess Jean had an ego and wanted things one way and Mary was the only original member so it was very much her group even if she wasn't lead singer.
I never understood why they didn't use their first hit Up the Ladder to The Roof to open their shows. Think they they would have the stage dark and them singing Come with me while the lights came up. It would be as if they were saying come with me for a totally new journey and using a hit to do that.

[luckyluckyme]

Jean just did not connect to audiences at all. Even on TV, Mary and Cindy both exhibited far more charisma than Jean. I guess she felt that she had a voice and that was all that was needed

I've been thinking about what you said here. I'm not so sure that's the complete reason.
There's a big difference between being in a group from it's beginning, having 3 years as a member under one's belt, and being the 'new girl' who has to balance filling the shoes of someone who was the lead voice & personality of one of the most celebrated groups in the world and being one's own self.
It has been said that Jean was, by nature, a shy person. If you listen to her introduction at the Farewell performance when Mary greets her as she comes onstage, that is very apparent.
On the one hand, Jean knew she was between a rock and a hard place. Act too loud and boisterous in the beginning and people might be apt to say 'Just who does she think she is, Diana Ross? Be yourself Jean'.
And I believe that's what she did- be Jean Terrell. There was a sweetness and a building confidence over time in her performances. But she never tried to mimic Diana in style or motion. Her trills and runs added to songs demonstrates that point- and I know that that could be quite annoying to those who would want her to sing them straight 'just like Diana did'.
Sometimes, people equate shyness with disinterest or even arrogance. Jean knew she had a voice but she also knew it took a lot more to be a performer.
Remember, she was "discovered" by Berry Gordy & Shelly Berger in Miami while singing in her brother Ernie's Group, the Heavyweights and positioned into the Supremes.
Mary and Cindy had been performing on tv for years- and with them now at the helm was a shy girl thrust into the spotlight trying to feel her way in front of a tv camera.

[BayouMotownMan]

Jean and Mary got along just find in the beginning, though Jean grew closer to Cindy. Jean was just not into the party scene like Mary was. While touring Jean stayed in her room and rarely went out with Mary despite Mary's encouragement. Clearly the more "eccentric" fans unnerved Jean, she had not been brought up around such folks.

It was Jean who encouraged Mary to demand that Motown release her monies to her complete control and get an accounting of her royalties through the years. Jean knew something wasn't right. Mary was shocked by how little she really had.

It was when Lynda came into the group and the two converted to the Jehovah Witness faith that Jean became a thorn in Mary's side, and Motown's as well. As Jean told me, in the summer of 1972 when the reviews started getting bad [[the ladies were forced back into a Diana Ross and the Supremes stage show) and record sales dropped sharply, that all three ladies, including Mary made a decision. They all gave Motown an ultimatum that within a year if things didn't improve they would leave for another label. They were unaware of the legalities of the name. But when they were informed that if they left Motown, they left the name Supremes and the company could hire any three girls to take over. Jean didn't care about this but Mary did. Jean got more and more annoyed with Mary's non-confrontational attitude toward Mary. When the Jimmy Webb lp came out Jean was all over Motown's promotion department for not promoting it; they were all into Lady Sings The Blues at that point.

The failure of Bad Weather made matters worse. Jean became more vocal about the club act and lack of promotion. The final straw came in San Francisco around May 1973 when they got a scathing review and the writer said the group didn't have a "black" sound. This hit Jean to her core. They held a press conference where they defended their act with Jean going a little bit into militantism. The Supremes were never known for this type of talk

It was here that Jean told Mary and Lynda she wanted out. The year was up and Motown had not lived up to the terms of their ultimatum. As she said to me in a 1978 interview, "Mary was very loyal to Motown. And if that's what she wanted, if that's where her loyalties were then...what could I say?"

Despite Mary virtually begging Jean to stay, Jean had met the man she was going to marry and that cemented her decision to leave. Lynda soon followed. Also, Pedro was starting to come around and both Jean and Lynda were skeptical of him and left Mary to deal with him, if that was what she wanted.

As far as Jean's future, she settled into a marital situation and had the children she had longed for. Following her exit from the group several announcements were made about Jean making a comeback but nothing materialized. At one point producer Richard Perry made Jean and Lynda a lucrative offer to record as a duet. He had big plans for them and both ladies were excited. The morning of the meeting to sign the contracts, Jean announced she had changed her mind. She had a baby and didn't want to leave home. Perry then signed The Pointer Sisters and we know what happened for them. Ron Townsend of the 5th Dimension did a few gigs with Jean around LA and at one point he wanted Jean to replace Marilyn McCoo. Jean said no, no more group's for her. Finally Philly producer Bobby Martin got Jean going. He got her a solo deal with A&M who was eager to bust into the R&B market and were hot with the group LTD [[Back In Love Again). Herb Alpert was excited to have her and a solo career was mapped out for her. She did the I Had To Fall In Love lp and was scheduled to tour opening for LTD. Again she did an about face and said her family commitments and Jehovah Witness beliefs would not allow her to do all of this. A&M dropped her. We didn't hear from Jean again until the FLOs was formed in 1986.

[jobeterob]

Jean and Mary got along just find in the beginning, though Jean grew closer to Cindy. Jean was just not into the party scene like Mary was. While touring Jean stayed in her room and rarely went out with Mary despite Mary's encouragement. Clearly the more "eccentric" fans unnerved Jean, she had not been brought up around such folks.

It was Jean who encouraged Mary to demand that Motown release her monies to her complete control and get an accounting of her royalties through the years. Jean knew something wasn't right. Mary was shocked by how little she really had.

It was when Lynda came into the group and the two converted to the Jehovah Witness faith that Jean became a thorn in Mary's side, and Motown's as well. As Jean told me, in the summer of 1972 when the reviews started getting bad [[the ladies were forced back into a Diana Ross and the Supremes stage show) and record sales dropped sharply, that all three ladies, including Mary made a decision. They all gave Motown an ultimatum that within a year if things didn't improve they would leave for another label. They were unaware of the legalities of the name. But when they were informed that if they left Motown, they left the name Supremes and the company could hire any three girls to take over. Jean didn't care about this but Mary did. Jean got more and more annoyed with Mary's non-confrontational attitude toward Mary. When the Jimmy Webb lp came out Jean was all over Motown's promotion department for not promoting it; they were all into Lady Sings The Blues at that point.

The failure of Bad Weather made matters worse. Jean became more vocal about the club act and lack of promotion. The final straw came in San Francisco around May 1973 when they got a scathing review and the writer said the group didn't have a "black" sound. This hit Jean to her core. They held a press conference where they defended their act with Jean going a little bit into militantism. The Supremes were never known for this type of talk

It was here that Jean told Mary and Lynda she wanted out. The year was up and Motown had not lived up to the terms of their ultimatum. As she said to me in a 1978 interview, "Mary was very loyal to Motown. And if that's what she wanted, if that's where her loyalties were then...what could I say?"

Despite Mary virtually begging Jean to stay, Jean had met the man she was going to marry and that cemented her decision to leave. Lynda soon followed. Also, Pedro was starting to come around and both Jean and Lynda were skeptical of him and left Mary to deal with him, if that was what she wanted.

As far as Jean's future, she settled into a marital situation and had the children she had longed for. Following her exit from the group several announcements were made about Jean making a comeback but nothing materialized. At one point producer Richard Perry made Jean and Lynda a lucrative offer to record as a duet. He had big plans for them and both ladies were excited. The morning of the meeting to sign the contracts, Jean announced she had changed her mind. She had a baby and didn't want to leave home. Perry then signed The Pointer Sisters and we know what happened for them. Ron Townsend of the 5th Dimension did a few gigs with Jean around LA and at one point he wanted Jean to replace Marilyn McCoo. Jean said no, no more group's for her. Finally Philly producer Bobby Martin got Jean going. He got her a solo deal with A&M who was eager to bust into the R&B market and were hot with the group LTD [[Back In Love Again). Herb Alpert was excited to have her and a solo career was mapped out for her. She did the I Had To Fall In Love lp and was scheduled to tour opening for LTD. Again she did an about face and said her family commitments and Jehovah Witness beliefs would not allow her to do all of this. A&M dropped her. We didn't hear from Jean again until the FLOs was formed in 1986.

So there wasn’t really anything that could save the Supremes.

It’s no wonder it took until 1975 to get the group active again.

[sup_fan]

Jean and Mary got along just find in the beginning, though Jean grew closer to Cindy. Jean was just not into the party scene like Mary was. While touring Jean stayed in her room and rarely went out with Mary despite Mary's encouragement. Clearly the more "eccentric" fans unnerved Jean, she had not been brought up around such folks.

It was Jean who encouraged Mary to demand that Motown release her monies to her complete control and get an accounting of her royalties through the years. Jean knew something wasn't right. Mary was shocked by how little she really had.

It was when Lynda came into the group and the two converted to the Jehovah Witness faith that Jean became a thorn in Mary's side, and Motown's as well. As Jean told me, in the summer of 1972 when the reviews started getting bad [[the ladies were forced back into a Diana Ross and the Supremes stage show) and record sales dropped sharply, that all three ladies, including Mary made a decision. They all gave Motown an ultimatum that within a year if things didn't improve they would leave for another label. They were unaware of the legalities of the name. But when they were informed that if they left Motown, they left the name Supremes and the company could hire any three girls to take over. Jean didn't care about this but Mary did. Jean got more and more annoyed with Mary's non-confrontational attitude toward Mary. When the Jimmy Webb lp came out Jean was all over Motown's promotion department for not promoting it; they were all into Lady Sings The Blues at that point.

The failure of Bad Weather made matters worse. Jean became more vocal about the club act and lack of promotion. The final straw came in San Francisco around May 1973 when they got a scathing review and the writer said the group didn't have a "black" sound. This hit Jean to her core. They held a press conference where they defended their act with Jean going a little bit into militantism. The Supremes were never known for this type of talk

It was here that Jean told Mary and Lynda she wanted out. The year was up and Motown had not lived up to the terms of their ultimatum. As she said to me in a 1978 interview, "Mary was very loyal to Motown. And if that's what she wanted, if that's where her loyalties were then...what could I say?"

Despite Mary virtually begging Jean to stay, Jean had met the man she was going to marry and that cemented her decision to leave. Lynda soon followed. Also, Pedro was starting to come around and both Jean and Lynda were skeptical of him and left Mary to deal with him, if that was what she wanted.

As far as Jean's future, she settled into a marital situation and had the children she had longed for. Following her exit from the group several announcements were made about Jean making a comeback but nothing materialized. At one point producer Richard Perry made Jean and Lynda a lucrative offer to record as a duet. He had big plans for them and both ladies were excited. The morning of the meeting to sign the contracts, Jean announced she had changed her mind. She had a baby and didn't want to leave home. Perry then signed The Pointer Sisters and we know what happened for them. Ron Townsend of the 5th Dimension did a few gigs with Jean around LA and at one point he wanted Jean to replace Marilyn McCoo. Jean said no, no more group's for her. Finally Philly producer Bobby Martin got Jean going. He got her a solo deal with A&M who was eager to bust into the R&B market and were hot with the group LTD [[Back In Love Again). Herb Alpert was excited to have her and a solo career was mapped out for her. She did the I Had To Fall In Love lp and was scheduled to tour opening for LTD. Again she did an about face and said her family commitments and Jehovah Witness beliefs would not allow her to do all of this. A&M dropped her. We didn't hear from Jean again until the FLOs was formed in 1986.

makes you wonder if in the 71 time period, if things had maybe evolved a bit differently, maybe the group could have held on. i think you're right - the accounting situation and the monies was a big nail in the coffin. not that mary shouldn't have asked for it but that motown would not take it kindly. add to that the fact that the "newness" of the group was wearing off and they weren't really pushing themselves forward into a new look or sound, cindy leaving, Lady Sings the Blues and the move to LA, and it pretty much sealed the deal

[BayouMotownMan]

Yes, looking back I think the Supremes died when Jean left. And, after talking to her at length in 1978 I really don't think anything would have stopped Jean from leaving. Even if Bad Weather had gone No. 1 she was tired of constant travelling and fell in love. She wanted a family and wanted to be home with them. Her lp title I Had To Fall In Love was prophetic. She hated the heavy makeup, uncomfortable gowns and constant dieting. She wanted a normal life.

[Ollie9]

Diana should have reformed the group with Mary and Cindy at the time her solo recording career prematurely hit the rocks on home soil around 86. The media would have been a buzz, while being an opportunity for fans to hear full length versions of Supremes hits while voices were still at their peak.

[sup_fan]

Yes, the Jean led group did get some geers at one of the fundraisers, I don't remember if it was Save The Children or Operation Push or one of those types of things. Some of the Stax acts were there and performed in their funky denims while the Supremes came out in feathers, sequins, did some of the older material and then the For Once In My Life/Cabaret medley. It did not go over to a mostly African American audience.

This unnerved Jean moreso than Mary and Lynda, though all were upset. It only served to prove to Jean that despite her best efforts she was guiding a sinking ship.

just pulled up the tracks i have from the girls performing at Operation PUSH. The open with TCB, did the 60s hits medley, Stoned Love and Can't Take My Eyes. now it's very possible that i don't have all of the tunes. maybe they did another one or two, like the For Once/Cabaret medley but it hasn't materialized on youtube yet. i'm pretty sure each of the songs i do have were individually posted to youtube, they were uploaded as the "full concert"

[RanRan79]

Diana should have reformed the group with Mary and Cindy at the time her solo recording career prematurely hit the rocks on home soil around 86. The media would have been a buzz, while being an opportunity for fans to hear full length versions of Supremes hits while voices were still at their peak.

She would have done a duets album with Martha Reeves before she reformed the Supremes at that point.

She would have starred in a remake of Mahogany, with the candle wax dripping scene replaced with Tracy covering herself in elephant dung before she would have regrouped with Mary at that point.

She would have packed what she could, grabbed her children, and moved back to the Brewster Projects before she would have gotten back together with Mary that soon after Dreamgirl.

You get what I'm saying here?

[Ollie9]

She would have done a duets album with Martha Reeves before she reformed the Supremes at that point.

She would have starred in a remake of Mahogany, with the candle wax dripping scene replaced with Tracy covering herself in elephant dung before she would have regrouped with Mary at that point.

She would have packed what she could, grabbed her children, and moved back to the Brewster Projects before she would have gotten back together with Mary that soon after Dreamgirl.

You get what I'm saying here?

LOL. Just a pipe dream, but do wonder what kind of albums they might have recorded had they reformed. I’m guessing ‘Workin Overtime would have been a non-starter.

[RanRan79]

LOL. Just a pipe dream, but do wonder what kind of albums they might have recorded had they reformed. I’m guessing ‘Workin Overtime would have been a non-starter.

Artistically speaking, it could have been great. Motown needed a huge jolt. I think it would have been a winner if Diana's return to Motown was also Mary's return. Regroup with Cindy, release an album, milk it, then release solo albums on Diana and Mary [[and Cindy, if desired). At that point, Motown needed any jolt it could get.

Obviously this is all "what if" and "wishful thinking" [[which we all seem to love so much lol). Keeping that in mind, I think hooking them up with Masser could have been a good idea. I think at that point his productions had a bit more life to them, vs relying on the overly dramatic. Think Supremes sing "Miss You Like Crazy". Diane Warren, Narada, Michael Powell, Richard Perry, I think all could have contributed worthwhile music, keeping the Supremes trademark sound but in an up to date way.

[Ollie9]

Artistically speaking, it could have been great. Motown needed a huge jolt. I think it would have been a winner if Diana's return to Motown was also Mary's return. Regroup with Cindy, release an album, milk it, then release solo albums on Diana and Mary [[and Cindy, if desired). At that point, Motown needed any jolt it could get.

Obviously this is all "what if" and "wishful thinking" [[which we all seem to love so much lol). Keeping that in mind, I think hooking them up with Masser could have been a good idea. I think at that point his productions had a bit more life to them, vs relying on the overly dramatic. Think Supremes sing "Miss You Like Crazy". Diane Warren, Narada, Michael Powell, Richard Perry, I think all could have contributed worthwhile music, keeping the Supremes trademark sound but in an up to date way.

As a one off it would have made for a profitable venture and a fans delight. Perhaps an album release should have been what RTL was all about about as opposed to a world tour. A lot simpler and certainly less time consuming.

[Spreadinglove21]

Well obviously Mary's book precluded any chance of a Surpemes reunion in 1989/90. But if it had happened and Motown released an album there were a lot of female groups around in 1989 and 90: Expose, Cover Girls, Sweet Sensation [[doing Love Child no less), Seduction, and Wilson Phillips and En Vogue made huge splashes in 1990 with their deubt singles [[both with songs called Hold on). I wonder how a reunited Supremes would have competed against them?

[sup_fan]

i think if Motown 25 had gone as hoped, there might have been an opportunity to do a RTL style reunion. Motown would have probably been interested in a Sup reunion but that woul have been MSC most likely. still, post 25 they could have done an event or something with all of the women participating. that could have also helped re-introduce MSC as a lineup and allowed them to continue post reunion with some sort of group work

it also might have been interesting to do some appearances together rather than always "full reunion." when Beyonce did the superbowl, Michelle and kelly joined for a brief DC segment. let's say if Diana did her Central Park concert a little later than she did, having a brief segment with DMC would have been fun. it would sort of be kind of like some of the initial ideas around the 2000 RTL tour - doing an extended segment focusing on the Sups and maybe having M and C join for that. it's not a reunion but its a wonderful way to continue to highlight and treasure the group's history and importance.

[Boogiedown]

i think if Motown 25 had gone as hoped,.

as hoped by who ?? there was zero planning around it [by any of them] to make it anything more than three ladies , now basically strangers, tossed onto stage together ..... with a "good luck, ladies!" if that ...

Motown 25 revealed all. No more fakery.

[jobeterob]

as hoped by who ?? there was zero planning around it [by any of them] to make it anything more than three ladies , now basically strangers, tossed onto stage together ..... with a "good luck, ladies!" if that ...

Motown 25 revealed all. No more fakery.

Oh, you mean it was just “C’mon _____, let’s go!”

[sup_fan]

as hoped by who ?? there was zero planning around it [by any of them] to make it anything more than three ladies , now basically strangers, tossed onto stage together ..... with a "good luck, ladies!" if that ...

Motown 25 revealed all. No more fakery.

i would assume all involved [[at least prior to that evening) had hopes that DMC would reunite on a national stage and tv program and give a lovely tribute to their musical history. Prior to arriving for the rehearsal, i would assume that was the general sentiment. apparently it started to unravel that day.

[marybrewster]

i think if Motown 25 had gone as hoped, there might have been an opportunity to do a RTL style reunion. Motown would have probably been interested in a Sup reunion but that woul have been MSC most likely. still, post 25 they could have done an event or something with all of the women participating. that could have also helped re-introduce MSC as a lineup and allowed them to continue post reunion with some sort of group work

it also might have been interesting to do some appearances together rather than always "full reunion." when Beyonce did the superbowl, Michelle and kelly joined for a brief DC segment. let's say if Diana did her Central Park concert a little later than she did, having a brief segment with DMC would have been fun. it would sort of be kind of like some of the initial ideas around the 2000 RTL tour - doing an extended segment focusing on the Sups and maybe having M and C join for that. it's not a reunion but its a wonderful way to continue to highlight and treasure the group's history and importance.

I thought there was interest in an MSC reunion prior to M25? Mary talked about it in one of her books; she went to Gordy and he was blah about it, so that was that. Wasn't it around the time the Temptations reunited?

Re: Motown 25 had it gone as they hoped: perhaps if Diana would have just "shown up and sang" things would have turned out different?

[Boogiedown]

i would assume all involved [[at least prior to that evening) had hopes that DMC would reunite on a national stage and tv program and give a lovely tribute to their musical history. Prior to arriving for the rehearsal, i would assume that was the general sentiment. apparently it started to unravel that day.

You'd think so , but what's the evidence? No costuming, no staging , no lighting, no special-ness in any way or manner. More fuss was made for Diana's solo entrance than the uniting of the three. [oh .... and also, here are the two Supremes]

More care was put into creating something special for Adam Ant's segment!

[Ollie9]

You'd think so , but what's the evidence? No costuming, no staging , no lighting, no special-ness in any way or manner. More fuss was made for Diana's solo entrance than the uniting of the three. [oh .... and also, here are the two Supremes]

More care was put into creating something special for Adam Ant's segment!

Lack of rehearsal was key and that was due to Diana.The thinking almost being if she doesn’t give a fig why should we.

[sup_fan]

You'd think so , but what's the evidence? No costuming, no staging , no lighting, no special-ness in any way or manner. More fuss was made for Diana's solo entrance than the uniting of the three. [oh .... and also, here are the two Supremes]

More care was put into creating something special for Adam Ant's segment!

but that was the outcome of how the evening progressed. the original plan was for a full medley of hits plus Someday. none of the groups really had a unique stage except Marvin doing his introspective monologue on the piano. also this was just 1 segment on an overall variety show not a full "supremes reunion tour"

[sup_fan]

I thought there was interest in an MSC reunion prior to M25? Mary talked about it in one of her books; she went to Gordy and he was blah about it, so that was that. Wasn't it around the time the Temptations reunited?

Re: Motown 25 had it gone as they hoped: perhaps if Diana would have just "shown up and sang" things would have turned out different?

i'm not 100% sure of the exact timing. i thought Mary's book just said "it was around this time..."

When did the Temps reunion occur? was the over and done prior to M25? Didn't the Tops resign to motown after M25?

i'm sure that any Sup regrouping would have been a secondary idea to the Temps. 1 - the group The Temptations were still an entity 2 - the majority of the lead singers were still performing but were not at a level of DR superstardom 3 - the public kept up with the Temps more because IMO their female base of fans. the women loved to go to their shows and continued to do so. 4 - you still had multiple members that were viewed as "original" or "legitimate" even if they weren't. M and O were still there and Richard had been associated with the group for so long he had sort of a presence like Cindy. very established in the group.

[reese]

i'm not 100% sure of the exact timing. i thought Mary's book just said "it was around this time..."

When did the Temps reunion occur? was the over and done prior to M25? Didn't the Tops resign to motown after M25?

i'm sure that any Sup regrouping would have been a secondary idea to the Temps. 1 - the group The Temptations were still an entity 2 - the majority of the lead singers were still performing but were not at a level of DR superstardom 3 - the public kept up with the Temps more because IMO their female base of fans. the women loved to go to their shows and continued to do so. 4 - you still had multiple members that were viewed as "original" or "legitimate" even if they weren't. M and O were still there and Richard had been associated with the group for so long he had sort of a presence like Cindy. very established in the group.

The Tempts reunion was done in 1982. And yes, the Tops did resign with Motown after MOTOWN 25. Their first back-to-Motown album was titled BACK WHERE I BELONG and featured a duet with Aretha. I believe they also recorded a duet with the Tempts for one of the Tempts' albums.

In SUPREME FAITH, Mary wrote of the proposed Supremes reunion right before her memories of MOTOWN 25. Suzanne dePasse thought a Supremes reunion might work. It would have been MSC and Motown wanted Scherrie to do all the leads but Mary insisted that she be able to do some leads as well.

But as Marybrewster wrote, Berry wasn't all that enthused. When Mary asked him directly if he was behind it, he sort of avoided the question and Mary said that she didn't want to do it anyway because she knew that if he wasn't behind it, it wouldn't have gotten off the ground.

I do remember a blurb in JET magazine with photos of Cindy and Mary re the reunion. It also mentioned that Cindy was also looking for a gospel contract through her company Joy Enterprises.

[Boogiedown]

but that was the outcome of how the evening progressed. the original plan was for a full medley of hits plus Someday. none of the groups really had a unique stage except Marvin doing his introspective monologue on the piano. also this was just 1 segment on an overall variety show not a full "supremes reunion tour"

Well that's my thought .....The Supremes segment was just one piece of a much bigger concept for that show....and not treated in any way as especially special. I think certainly everyone had hopes it would go well, but if anyone had grander hopes that these ladies getting together that night would lead to something more in the future ...they sure did a lousy job of setting it up to open that door.