Why didn't Motown like Mary Wilson?

[sup_fan]

Dreamgirls used the storyline that Effie and Curtis were a thing before he chose Deena. As for real life, thankfully Berry was not also involved with Flo and Mary.
Diana and Mary both wrote that Flo was unpredictable. Mary may have wrote about some difficulties with working alongside Diana, too, but she always spoke of how hard Diana worked. Diana also wrote that Mary was a hard worker. Diana would know if Mary was a slouch or she would have left that phrase out.
Diana was amazing and unique and a hard worker but Gordy did only have her as a one track mind, not only did Flo and Mary not enter into the picture but that one track caused other female artists to be put on the backburner. Funny, male artists that were different could flourish-Smokey, Marvin, the Jackson 5, the Temptations, the Four Tops, et al. I guess misogyny and his one track Diana mind couldn't help the other females.
I still say Motown could have worked with Mary so that she could have been their balladeer. She had the voice, looks and desire. Releasing Red Hot and dropping her wasn't all just to get her to drop a lawsuit. They could have done more. I know she wasn't the all-consuming drive of Diana but she was still pushing it all the way up until she passed. It just seemed to be more to the story-like was it a personality thing? Did they not approve of her lifestyle? Was she a diva and problematic? I guess we can only speculate. Some write here that she just didn't have the talent to make it [[mainly because she wasn't Diana Ross) and others feel she was divine. The truth lays somewhere in between but I don't see a resolution on this page.

by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope

[Ollie9]

by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope

My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.

[jobeterob]

My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.

If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.

She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.

What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?

That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers

[Ollie9]

If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.

She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.

What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?

That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers

In hindsight, she most probably was being naive in thinking BG would remain true to his promises of career involvement and support, but Mary always did veer towards the sentimental in thinking Motown remained a family.
Perhaps there was a written settlement after the lawsuit ended, but clearly not one that could protect her from a record company that wanted rid asap.
By 1979 the label would have had a clear indication of where her vocal strengths lay, making it a huge head scratcher as to why they chose disco. She might have rebounded with material better suited to her voice but was never given the chance. That ill-conceived first album was all the company ever intended before showing her the door.
How many flops did the company release on the Supremes release before “Lovelight”. One wouldn’t think such a thing possible, no matter what label you were on. Hmmm.

[bradsupremes]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

[jim aka jtigre99]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

I totally agree, which is why I posed this inquiry to begin with. The Dudgeon songs were great-although I was less fond of Green River-that surely the quality of You Dance My Heart Around the Stars, Love Talk and Save Me surely spoke for themselves. I wasn't thrilled with her first album but I did think that some songs like I love a Warm Summer Night, Pick Up The Pieces and Midnight Dancer were decent enough.
Like I had said, you couldn't have three people in the Supremes all sound like Diana Ross, that is so shortsighted. Imagine if Diana was singing with Jean and Susaye? People are so critical of Mary's voice, but she had the best tone and a terrific warm sound. Her second album truly could have made some headway since she was no longer singing disco songs like her first one. You were right, Motown kept alot of people with voices that weren't great.

[sup_fan]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

agree - these are really mary at her peak. the songs were extremely commercial and, with a bit of promotion, could have been hits. these are very early 80s in their sound and quite contemporary. and hailing this as the [[almost) launch of a post-Supreme career. easy PR and publicity around this. and i'm sure Diana would have commented on them or done something to acknowledge them.

[RanRan79]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

OMG, yes, about Charlene. Anybody at Motown that thought Charlene was a bigger bet than Mary had to be deaf and dumb.

In 1980 Motown was not in the best of financial situations. Seems like it would have been in their own best interest to try to get something out of Mary. Those four GD tracks...well three, because I don't care for "Green River" at all...were well worth the anchor of a second Mary album, and I believe it could have been successful. But then Motown was often cutting off its nose to spite its face, and I do think a lot of that eventually culminated in Gordy jumping ship, selling the label and moving on.

[RanRan79]

In hindsight, she most probably was being naive in thinking BG would remain true to his promises of career involvement and support, but Mary always did veer towards the sentimental in thinking Motown remained a family.
Perhaps there was a written settlement after the lawsuit ended, but clearly not one that could protect her from a record company that wanted rid asap.
By 1979 the label would have had a clear indication of where her vocal strengths lay, making it a huge head scratcher as to why they chose disco. She might have rebounded with material better suited to her voice but was never given the chance. That ill-conceived first album was all the company ever intended before showing her the door.
How many flops did the company release on the Supremes release before “Lovelight”. One wouldn’t think such a thing possible, no matter what label you were on. Hmmm.

She was definitely naive. She was also desperate. And she was afraid. Motown had Mary by the ovaries. They had the power, she had none. I imagine that had to suck. But she really should have looked for something elsewhere. She wrote in her book that her confidence issues were still plaguing her as late as the early 80s. I guess at the time of the lawsuit, if she wasn't convinced that she had all the goods, sticking with the "home" label of Motown, whatever the circumstances, might have felt like her best bet.

In contrast, when Flo was offered a solo contract with Motown, she apparently didn't even entertain the thought. I think she probably knew that if Motown wasn't fully in her corner as a Supreme, the label wasn't suddenly going to get interested in her alone. She also didn't have the self confidence issues Mary had, figuring she could get a deal on her own, which she did. I believe Mary had it in her to get signed somewhere, but she always played it safe.

[reese]

She was definitely naive. She was also desperate. And she was afraid. Motown had Mary by the ovaries. They had the power, she had none. I imagine that had to suck. But she really should have looked for something elsewhere. She wrote in her book that her confidence issues were still plaguing her as late as the early 80s. I guess at the time of the lawsuit, if she wasn't convinced that she had all the goods, sticking with the "home" label of Motown, whatever the circumstances, might have felt like her best bet.

In contrast, when Flo was offered a solo contract with Motown, she apparently didn't even entertain the thought. I think she probably knew that if Motown wasn't fully in her corner as a Supreme, the label wasn't suddenly going to get interested in her alone. She also didn't have the self confidence issues Mary had, figuring she could get a deal on her own, which she did. I believe Mary had it in her to get signed somewhere, but she always played it safe.

Re her solo deal at Motown, it is unfortunate but it is probably true that Mary didn't have many [if any] other offers. I remember a column in Soul magazine from this period and it said something like "if Pedro Ferrer had gone into butchering hogs instead of his wife's career maybe she wouldn't be in this war with Motown. Let's face it: she's great when it comes to the group scene but as a solo, everything sounds as if its in the key of H." Ouch!

Reading something like that couldn't have done much for Mary's confidence.

[sup_fan]

Re her solo deal at Motown, it is unfortunate but it is probably true that Mary didn't have many [if any] other offers. I remember a column in Soul magazine from this period and it said something like "if Pedro Ferrer had gone into butchering hogs instead of his wife's career maybe she wouldn't be in this war with Motown. Let's face it: she's great when it comes to the group scene but as a solo, everything sounds as if its in the key of H." Ouch!

Reading something like that couldn't have done much for Mary's confidence.

yeah i think the issue was more that there weren't other offers. part of this is that mary didn't have a reputation in the industry. she wasn't the lead of the group. and when she did share a lead [[like HMM) it really wasn't something the industry or public noticed. the group was a non-entity for years and so that basically meant she had no US track record.

second probably had to do with timing. if she was looking to move to another label in 77 or 78, it was all about disco and she just wasn't a fit for that. nor did she have a name where they could at least play that up - like the horrid Martha Reeves Skating in the Street disco garbage or Ethel Merman's disco nonsense lol.

and then there's age. if she was struggling to land a pop deal in 78 when she was 34, it would only get harder as time went by.

let's face it - if any other label in the industry had been willing to sign her, she would have done it

[RanRan79]

Re her solo deal at Motown, it is unfortunate but it is probably true that Mary didn't have many [if any] other offers. I remember a column in Soul magazine from this period and it said something like "if Pedro Ferrer had gone into butchering hogs instead of his wife's career maybe she wouldn't be in this war with Motown. Let's face it: she's great when it comes to the group scene but as a solo, everything sounds as if its in the key of H." Ouch!

Reading something like that couldn't have done much for Mary's confidence.

I'm sure a comment like that would hurt, but it should be understood that this is the nature of the business. I'm sure Diana heard or read worse than that, but she would use it to fuel herself. Mary should have trusted in her talent like Diana and Flo did.

[sup_fan]

If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.

She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.

What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?

That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers

i think the fact of the matter is there just were no other offers. No other label was expressing any interest in Mary. the Supremes hadn't had any hits since the very early 70s. their later-day shows were heavily panned. and most of the singles were on the voices of Scherrie or Jean.

As bayou mentioned, Motown dragged it's feet and bled mary. it was either sign this throw away agreement as-is or go find a 9-5 job and try to keep the lawsuit going.

[RanRan79]

My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.

It is an interesting thought: what if Mary had refused to drop her lawsuit? Would she have won? It's a shame that she was fighting such a big machine. Financially they had the upper hand.

With hindsight, perhaps she should have ditched the lawsuit and focused on getting a solo deal somewhere else. She lost some valuable time between leaving the group and releasing her solo debut. A newly solo Mary Wilson would probably have found a home somewhere. While the last couple of years worth of music she cut didn't amount to much successfully, she had some brilliant vocal performances on those last three albums.

[RanRan79]

by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope

Isn't the only person on record suggesting that Mary had a drug habit, Tall Tales? I believe she wrote in her second book that she did some partaking, but I can't recall anyone in the "know" who has publicly alleged that Mary had a drug problem.

[reese]

Isn't the only person on record suggesting that Mary had a drug habit, Tall Tales? I believe she wrote in her second book that she did some partaking, but I can't recall anyone in the "know" who has publicly alleged that Mary had a drug problem.

Besides her second book, I believe Mary mentioned the cocaine period in an interview with Black Elegance magazine but she didn't make it sound like it lasted too long.

[sup_fan]

Isn't the only person on record suggesting that Mary had a drug habit, Tall Tales? I believe she wrote in her second book that she did some partaking, but I can't recall anyone in the "know" who has publicly alleged that Mary had a drug problem.

mary talks in Sup Faith about using cocaine to numb the pain of her life with Pedro. she doesn't go as far as to say that she was a junkie or anything.