Why didn't Motown like Mary Wilson?

[sup_fan]

Perhaps if BG had taken just a little more interest in Mary’s potential as opposed to being totally focussed on Diana alone she might have felt a little more motivated.
She was also probably less inclined to spend those nights resting her voice as she actually got to do very little singing away from background.
For one who was supposedly less dedicated to her work, Mary always shined onstage, pushing Diana to work just that little bit harder. A fact Diana herself has admitted to.

and i don't think M and F were being excessively lazy or negligent to their careers. they were normal 22 year olds. they were wanting what is today called work life balance. it's just that in comparison to D, it was quite a difference.

Berry even mentioned the argument that you're making - that just singing ooohs and ahhhs didn't require them to rest and all. totally agree. i think though the view from Berry was neither of them were overly exertive in their quest to sing something OTHER than ooohs and ahhhs. now this is probably very much dependent on the person's perspective. M and F would probably argue they DID push to do more. whereas B's POV would be they didn't. again it's probably true that, compared to Diana's over the top push to lead and sing and dance and do everything, anyone else's approach to things would pale. If D had been pushed in to the background like M and F, perhaps she would have complained 500 times while M and F complained 10 times.

again IMO it's all about the perspective. i'm not saying that M and F were lazy or didn't push for things. they were, again, only 22 and so being able to self-guide their careers and motown and push for things and all is probably unrealistic. but the problem is, that's the side Berry was on. that's what he truly responded to. his whole family was over achievers - highly motivated, everyone doing 10,000 things at the same time, highly successful, never letting anything stop them.

[marybrewster]

Diana commenting that Flo was her own worst enemy revealed a complete lack of understanding of someone suffering mental health problems. I would hope that she has since revised that opinion considering she experienced her own problems with mental health and alcohol addiction.
The fact Mary felt she needed a break around the time of “Love Child” in 1968 is not a concrete reflection of her work ethic. She was always the consummate professional as a Supreme, working her butt off over the years while touring as a solo act. It’s worth noting that sometimes hard work alone is not enough, and you need some element of luck to help you on your way.
Had Mary been gifted a little more of that, particularly regarding record companies who’s to say what might have been.

Was Flo ever diagnosed by a medical professional as to having mental health issues?

[sup_fan]

Was Flo ever diagnosed by a medical professional as to having mental health issues?

not that i'm aware of. there just wasn't the volume of mental health care officials back then and most people just viewed it as something to "work out yourself"

In addition, lower income had even less access to quality mental health care

[Ollie9]

Was Flo ever diagnosed by a medical professional as to having mental health issues?

Sadly for her that doesn’t seem to have been the case as they might have been able to offer help. We only have others testimony as to how her personality changed after the rape.

[Ollie9]

and i don't think M and F were being excessively lazy or negligent to their careers. they were normal 22 year olds. they were wanting what is today called work life balance. it's just that in comparison to D, it was quite a difference.

Berry even mentioned the argument that you're making - that just singing ooohs and ahhhs didn't require them to rest and all. totally agree. i think though the view from Berry was neither of them were overly exertive in their quest to sing something OTHER than ooohs and ahhhs. now this is probably very much dependent on the person's perspective. M and F would probably argue they DID push to do more. whereas B's POV would be they didn't. again it's probably true that, compared to Diana's over the top push to lead and sing and dance and do everything, anyone else's approach to things would pale. If D had been pushed in to the background like M and F, perhaps she would have complained 500 times while M and F complained 10 times.

again IMO it's all about the perspective. i'm not saying that M and F were lazy or didn't push for things. they were, again, only 22 and so being able to self-guide their careers and motown and push for things and all is probably unrealistic. but the problem is, that's the side Berry was on. that's what he truly responded to. his whole family was over achievers - highly motivated, everyone doing 10,000 things at the same time, highly successful, never letting anything stop them.

The point being, none of us were there so how could we possibly know if they weren’t being overly exertive in their quest to be given something more than oohs and ahhs to sing.
For all we know Flo and Mary may have been asking every day before being threatened with put and shut up or else.
It’s all pie in the sky surmising.

[floyjoy678]

Was Flo ever diagnosed by a medical professional as to having mental health issues?

She clearly had depression. Both Diana and Mary have said she would blow up on them about something then minutes later she'd be fine again as if nothing happened.

And they both have alluded that Flo's moods were contagious. When she was happy, everyone else was happy. When she was unhappy, everyone else was unhappy too.

[sup_fan]

The point being, none of us were there so how could we possibly know if they weren’t being overly exertive in their quest to be given something more than oohs and ahhs to sing.
For all we know Flo and Mary may have been asking every day before being threatened with put and shut up or else.
It’s all pie in the sky surmising.

of course all of this is caveated with a big fat "we don't really know." it's all speculation, for the most part. trying to make heads or tails of how things played out. Some of it is based on what has been reported in the various books - for instance multiple books have cited that some of the Artistic Dev staff felt M and F weren't working as hard as they should. Mary addresses this herself in Dreamgirl. so using this as a bit of a guide, i've tried to speculate what the broader story is. but it's just that - speculation.

[RanRan79]

I don't think it would've mattered to BG if Flo and Mary were as "dedicated" [[and I use that term for lack of a better one) as Diana. He zeroed in on Diana at a certain point because she had that over the top "it" factor. The Supremes worked because all three had an "it" factor. The image, the personality, the chemistry, they all had to have "it" to do what they did. But make no mistake about it, Diana had a certain extra thing that made her captivating and Gordy recognized that. It wasn't just talent, it was the total package, and he knew he had that in Diana.

I don't know if he was ever impressed with Mary's singing. Others have been, including Eddie Holland, just like some weren't impressed with Diana's singing, or Flo's. Gordy obviously felt Flo had a certain something, judging by giving her tunes he had written in the early days, including giving her the second single. He also allowed her lead on "People" to remain in the act for two or so years, something Mary never got until her incessant singing of "Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You" much later. So he obviously felt Flo had the chops. But Gordy was definitely overly impressed with Diana's uniqueness and for Gordy that was an asset in his quest for the BIG TIME.

Sup is right, Mary does make mention that TPTB at Motown apparently made it known that they thought Flo and Mary were less dedicated than Diana. I don't think they were less dedicated. They had a different workload than Diana had. Once Operation Copa was put into place, which is really the start of taking the Supremes from girl group to super group, Diana was given nearly all the leads and nearly all of the dialogue. She had a lot on her plate, given to her by Motown. Gordy was in her ear, championing her every step of the way. He lit a fire under her. Had Gordy not encouraged Diana to take it all, she probably would have been more likely to hold back. Flo and Mary didn't have a Gordy telling them they could do anything, and that is never good for morale, when one person is getting the "atta girl" and the other two are being told to get out of the way.

Gordy was never going to give Flo and Mary much more than he did, no matter how hard they worked. Maybe they could have gotten a little more had they demanded more. We don't know that they did or didn't, but I suspect they didn't demand more because, until things really got crazy behind the scenes, none of them, including Flo, wanted to rock the boat much. They enjoyed the money and the new homes and the cars and the jet setting lifestyle. Who wants to go back to the projects over some "oohs" and "ahhs"?

[Ollie9]

I don't think it would've mattered to BG if Flo and Mary were as "dedicated" [[and I use that term for lack of a better one) as Diana. He zeroed in on Diana at a certain point because she had that over the top "it" factor. The Supremes worked because all three had an "it" factor. The image, the personality, the chemistry, they all had to have "it" to do what they did. But make no mistake about it, Diana had a certain extra thing that made her captivating and Gordy recognized that. It wasn't just talent, it was the total package, and he knew he had that in Diana.

I don't know if he was ever impressed with Mary's singing. Others have been, including Eddie Holland, just like some weren't impressed with Diana's singing, or Flo's. Gordy obviously felt Flo had a certain something, judging by giving her tunes he had written in the early days, including giving her the second single. He also allowed her lead on "People" to remain in the act for two or so years, something Mary never got until her incessant singing of "Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You" much later. So he obviously felt Flo had the chops. But Gordy was definitely overly impressed with Diana's uniqueness and for Gordy that was an asset in his quest for the BIG TIME.

Sup is right, Mary does make mention that TPTB at Motown apparently made it known that they thought Flo and Mary were less dedicated than Diana. I don't think they were less dedicated. They had a different workload than Diana had. Once Operation Copa was put into place, which is really the start of taking the Supremes from girl group to super group, Diana was given nearly all the leads and nearly all of the dialogue. She had a lot on her plate, given to her by Motown. Gordy was in her ear, championing her every step of the way. He lit a fire under her. Had Gordy not encouraged Diana to take it all, she probably would have been more likely to hold back. Flo and Mary didn't have a Gordy telling them they could do anything, and that is never good for morale, when one person is getting the "atta girl" and the other two are being told to get out of the way.

Gordy was never going to give Flo and Mary much more than he did, no matter how hard they worked. Maybe they could have gotten a little more had they demanded more. We don't know that they did or didn't, but I suspect they didn't demand more because, until things really got crazy behind the scenes, none of them, including Flo, wanted to rock the boat much. They enjoyed the money and the new homes and the cars and the jet setting lifestyle. Who wants to go back to the projects over some "oohs" and "ahhs"?

I would imagine when you have the owner of a record company in your corner all the way, it would inspire you to go that extra mile. Flo and Mary never experienced that, making it impossible to gage the impact it might have had on their mindset.
As regards Diana, it was certainly her uniqueness that swung things her way. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[RanRan79]

I would imagine when you have the owner of a record company in your corner all the way, it would inspire you to go that extra mile. Flo and Mary never experienced that, making it impossible to gage the impact it might have had on their mindset.
As regards Diana, it was certainly her uniqueness that swung things her way. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Diana did what Diana was supposed to do. Can't fault her for the work she put in. But you're right, with the big guy in her corner [[and eventually in her bed...or was it his bed?) she knew the sky was the limit. Flo and Mary needed that, minus the guy in the bed thing.

Oh man, can you imagine how much worst the Supremes story would have gotten if Gordy had been sleeping with all three Supremes? [[And who could blame him, as all three were oober sexy, and if they were willing, consenting adults, I mean...) I suspect blood may have been shed. Lol

[jim aka jtigre99]

Diana did what Diana was supposed to do. Can't fault her for the work she put in. But you're right, with the big guy in her corner [[and eventually in her bed...or was it his bed?) she knew the sky was the limit. Flo and Mary needed that, minus the guy in the bed thing.

Oh man, can you imagine how much worst the Supremes story would have gotten if Gordy had been sleeping with all three Supremes? [[And who could blame him, as all three were oober sexy, and if they were willing, consenting adults, I mean...) I suspect blood may have been shed. Lol

Dreamgirls used the storyline that Effie and Curtis were a thing before he chose Deena. As for real life, thankfully Berry was not also involved with Flo and Mary.
Diana and Mary both wrote that Flo was unpredictable. Mary may have wrote about some difficulties with working alongside Diana, too, but she always spoke of how hard Diana worked. Diana also wrote that Mary was a hard worker. Diana would know if Mary was a slouch or she would have left that phrase out.
Diana was amazing and unique and a hard worker but Gordy did only have her as a one track mind, not only did Flo and Mary not enter into the picture but that one track caused other female artists to be put on the backburner. Funny, male artists that were different could flourish-Smokey, Marvin, the Jackson 5, the Temptations, the Four Tops, et al. I guess misogyny and his one track Diana mind couldn't help the other females.
I still say Motown could have worked with Mary so that she could have been their balladeer. She had the voice, looks and desire. Releasing Red Hot and dropping her wasn't all just to get her to drop a lawsuit. They could have done more. I know she wasn't the all-consuming drive of Diana but she was still pushing it all the way up until she passed. It just seemed to be more to the story-like was it a personality thing? Did they not approve of her lifestyle? Was she a diva and problematic? I guess we can only speculate. Some write here that she just didn't have the talent to make it [[mainly because she wasn't Diana Ross) and others feel she was divine. The truth lays somewhere in between but I don't see a resolution on this page.

[sup_fan]

Dreamgirls used the storyline that Effie and Curtis were a thing before he chose Deena. As for real life, thankfully Berry was not also involved with Flo and Mary.
Diana and Mary both wrote that Flo was unpredictable. Mary may have wrote about some difficulties with working alongside Diana, too, but she always spoke of how hard Diana worked. Diana also wrote that Mary was a hard worker. Diana would know if Mary was a slouch or she would have left that phrase out.
Diana was amazing and unique and a hard worker but Gordy did only have her as a one track mind, not only did Flo and Mary not enter into the picture but that one track caused other female artists to be put on the backburner. Funny, male artists that were different could flourish-Smokey, Marvin, the Jackson 5, the Temptations, the Four Tops, et al. I guess misogyny and his one track Diana mind couldn't help the other females.
I still say Motown could have worked with Mary so that she could have been their balladeer. She had the voice, looks and desire. Releasing Red Hot and dropping her wasn't all just to get her to drop a lawsuit. They could have done more. I know she wasn't the all-consuming drive of Diana but she was still pushing it all the way up until she passed. It just seemed to be more to the story-like was it a personality thing? Did they not approve of her lifestyle? Was she a diva and problematic? I guess we can only speculate. Some write here that she just didn't have the talent to make it [[mainly because she wasn't Diana Ross) and others feel she was divine. The truth lays somewhere in between but I don't see a resolution on this page.

by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope

[Ollie9]

by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope

My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.

[BayouMotownMan]

It wasn't "foolish" of Mary to drop the lawsuit, she really had no choice. Motown bled her dry. This was a mega-company with in house attorneys and Mary had to spend most of what she made on her legal defense. By the time all of this was settled the poor woman went from a modest mansion in an upscale part of Beverly Hills to a small apartment. She had lost virtually everything. Accepting the Motown deal, though not the wisest choice, was really the only one she had.

[Ollie9]

It wasn't "foolish" of Mary to drop the lawsuit, she really had no choice. Motown bled her dry. This was a mega-company with in house attorneys and Mary had to spend most of what she made on her legal defense. By the time all of this was settled the poor woman went from a modest mansion in an upscale part of Beverly Hills to a small apartment. She had lost virtually everything. Accepting the Motown deal, though not the wisest choice, was really the only one she had.

It’s true that the drawn out lawsuit case had left her in financial difficulty. It really was a massive shame, as i think had Mary the funds to see it through to conclusion she might well have won.
Allowing for the fact that record companies are not a charity, it was a shoddy way to treat an ex member of a group that had been integral to the labels success.
Kind of reminds me of James Jamerson sitting up in the gods at Motown 25, having had to purchase his own ticket. Hmmm.

[jobeterob]

My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.

If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.

She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.

What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?

That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers

[Ollie9]

If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.

She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.

What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?

That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers

In hindsight, she most probably was being naive in thinking BG would remain true to his promises of career involvement and support, but Mary always did veer towards the sentimental in thinking Motown remained a family.
Perhaps there was a written settlement after the lawsuit ended, but clearly not one that could protect her from a record company that wanted rid asap.
By 1979 the label would have had a clear indication of where her vocal strengths lay, making it a huge head scratcher as to why they chose disco. She might have rebounded with material better suited to her voice but was never given the chance. That ill-conceived first album was all the company ever intended before showing her the door.
How many flops did the company release on the Supremes release before “Lovelight”. One wouldn’t think such a thing possible, no matter what label you were on. Hmmm.

[bradsupremes]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

[jim aka jtigre99]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

I totally agree, which is why I posed this inquiry to begin with. The Dudgeon songs were great-although I was less fond of Green River-that surely the quality of You Dance My Heart Around the Stars, Love Talk and Save Me surely spoke for themselves. I wasn't thrilled with her first album but I did think that some songs like I love a Warm Summer Night, Pick Up The Pieces and Midnight Dancer were decent enough.
Like I had said, you couldn't have three people in the Supremes all sound like Diana Ross, that is so shortsighted. Imagine if Diana was singing with Jean and Susaye? People are so critical of Mary's voice, but she had the best tone and a terrific warm sound. Her second album truly could have made some headway since she was no longer singing disco songs like her first one. You were right, Motown kept alot of people with voices that weren't great.

[sup_fan]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

agree - these are really mary at her peak. the songs were extremely commercial and, with a bit of promotion, could have been hits. these are very early 80s in their sound and quite contemporary. and hailing this as the [[almost) launch of a post-Supreme career. easy PR and publicity around this. and i'm sure Diana would have commented on them or done something to acknowledge them.

[sup_fan]

If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.

She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.

What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?

That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers

i think the fact of the matter is there just were no other offers. No other label was expressing any interest in Mary. the Supremes hadn't had any hits since the very early 70s. their later-day shows were heavily panned. and most of the singles were on the voices of Scherrie or Jean.

As bayou mentioned, Motown dragged it's feet and bled mary. it was either sign this throw away agreement as-is or go find a 9-5 job and try to keep the lawsuit going.

[RanRan79]

by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope

Isn't the only person on record suggesting that Mary had a drug habit, Tall Tales? I believe she wrote in her second book that she did some partaking, but I can't recall anyone in the "know" who has publicly alleged that Mary had a drug problem.

[RanRan79]

My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.

It is an interesting thought: what if Mary had refused to drop her lawsuit? Would she have won? It's a shame that she was fighting such a big machine. Financially they had the upper hand.

With hindsight, perhaps she should have ditched the lawsuit and focused on getting a solo deal somewhere else. She lost some valuable time between leaving the group and releasing her solo debut. A newly solo Mary Wilson would probably have found a home somewhere. While the last couple of years worth of music she cut didn't amount to much successfully, she had some brilliant vocal performances on those last three albums.

[RanRan79]

Allowing for the fact that record companies are not a charity, it was a shoddy way to treat an ex member of a group that had been integral to the labels success.

I agree. Was Mary really asking for too much? Wasn't there a compromise to be made on the name, perhaps sharing it 50/50? Seems like quite a few Motowners were really loyal to Motown. Interesting that Motown didn't often return the favor.

[RanRan79]

In hindsight, she most probably was being naive in thinking BG would remain true to his promises of career involvement and support, but Mary always did veer towards the sentimental in thinking Motown remained a family.
Perhaps there was a written settlement after the lawsuit ended, but clearly not one that could protect her from a record company that wanted rid asap.
By 1979 the label would have had a clear indication of where her vocal strengths lay, making it a huge head scratcher as to why they chose disco. She might have rebounded with material better suited to her voice but was never given the chance. That ill-conceived first album was all the company ever intended before showing her the door.
How many flops did the company release on the Supremes release before “Lovelight”. One wouldn’t think such a thing possible, no matter what label you were on. Hmmm.

She was definitely naive. She was also desperate. And she was afraid. Motown had Mary by the ovaries. They had the power, she had none. I imagine that had to suck. But she really should have looked for something elsewhere. She wrote in her book that her confidence issues were still plaguing her as late as the early 80s. I guess at the time of the lawsuit, if she wasn't convinced that she had all the goods, sticking with the "home" label of Motown, whatever the circumstances, might have felt like her best bet.

In contrast, when Flo was offered a solo contract with Motown, she apparently didn't even entertain the thought. I think she probably knew that if Motown wasn't fully in her corner as a Supreme, the label wasn't suddenly going to get interested in her alone. She also didn't have the self confidence issues Mary had, figuring she could get a deal on her own, which she did. I believe Mary had it in her to get signed somewhere, but she always played it safe.

[RanRan79]

It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.

OMG, yes, about Charlene. Anybody at Motown that thought Charlene was a bigger bet than Mary had to be deaf and dumb.

In 1980 Motown was not in the best of financial situations. Seems like it would have been in their own best interest to try to get something out of Mary. Those four GD tracks...well three, because I don't care for "Green River" at all...were well worth the anchor of a second Mary album, and I believe it could have been successful. But then Motown was often cutting off its nose to spite its face, and I do think a lot of that eventually culminated in Gordy jumping ship, selling the label and moving on.

[reese]

Isn't the only person on record suggesting that Mary had a drug habit, Tall Tales? I believe she wrote in her second book that she did some partaking, but I can't recall anyone in the "know" who has publicly alleged that Mary had a drug problem.

Besides her second book, I believe Mary mentioned the cocaine period in an interview with Black Elegance magazine but she didn't make it sound like it lasted too long.

[reese]

She was definitely naive. She was also desperate. And she was afraid. Motown had Mary by the ovaries. They had the power, she had none. I imagine that had to suck. But she really should have looked for something elsewhere. She wrote in her book that her confidence issues were still plaguing her as late as the early 80s. I guess at the time of the lawsuit, if she wasn't convinced that she had all the goods, sticking with the "home" label of Motown, whatever the circumstances, might have felt like her best bet.

In contrast, when Flo was offered a solo contract with Motown, she apparently didn't even entertain the thought. I think she probably knew that if Motown wasn't fully in her corner as a Supreme, the label wasn't suddenly going to get interested in her alone. She also didn't have the self confidence issues Mary had, figuring she could get a deal on her own, which she did. I believe Mary had it in her to get signed somewhere, but she always played it safe.

Re her solo deal at Motown, it is unfortunate but it is probably true that Mary didn't have many [if any] other offers. I remember a column in Soul magazine from this period and it said something like "if Pedro Ferrer had gone into butchering hogs instead of his wife's career maybe she wouldn't be in this war with Motown. Let's face it: she's great when it comes to the group scene but as a solo, everything sounds as if its in the key of H." Ouch!

Reading something like that couldn't have done much for Mary's confidence.

[sup_fan]

Isn't the only person on record suggesting that Mary had a drug habit, Tall Tales? I believe she wrote in her second book that she did some partaking, but I can't recall anyone in the "know" who has publicly alleged that Mary had a drug problem.

mary talks in Sup Faith about using cocaine to numb the pain of her life with Pedro. she doesn't go as far as to say that she was a junkie or anything.

[sup_fan]

Re her solo deal at Motown, it is unfortunate but it is probably true that Mary didn't have many [if any] other offers. I remember a column in Soul magazine from this period and it said something like "if Pedro Ferrer had gone into butchering hogs instead of his wife's career maybe she wouldn't be in this war with Motown. Let's face it: she's great when it comes to the group scene but as a solo, everything sounds as if its in the key of H." Ouch!

Reading something like that couldn't have done much for Mary's confidence.

yeah i think the issue was more that there weren't other offers. part of this is that mary didn't have a reputation in the industry. she wasn't the lead of the group. and when she did share a lead [[like HMM) it really wasn't something the industry or public noticed. the group was a non-entity for years and so that basically meant she had no US track record.

second probably had to do with timing. if she was looking to move to another label in 77 or 78, it was all about disco and she just wasn't a fit for that. nor did she have a name where they could at least play that up - like the horrid Martha Reeves Skating in the Street disco garbage or Ethel Merman's disco nonsense lol.

and then there's age. if she was struggling to land a pop deal in 78 when she was 34, it would only get harder as time went by.

let's face it - if any other label in the industry had been willing to sign her, she would have done it

[RanRan79]

Re her solo deal at Motown, it is unfortunate but it is probably true that Mary didn't have many [if any] other offers. I remember a column in Soul magazine from this period and it said something like "if Pedro Ferrer had gone into butchering hogs instead of his wife's career maybe she wouldn't be in this war with Motown. Let's face it: she's great when it comes to the group scene but as a solo, everything sounds as if its in the key of H." Ouch!

Reading something like that couldn't have done much for Mary's confidence.

I'm sure a comment like that would hurt, but it should be understood that this is the nature of the business. I'm sure Diana heard or read worse than that, but she would use it to fuel herself. Mary should have trusted in her talent like Diana and Flo did.

[RanRan79]

I'm 100 percent positive Mary Wilson received no offers for a solo deal, aside from what Motown offered her, for the first few years after leaving the Supremes. The thing is that only the biggest acts received unsolicited offers, aside from newly discovered acts where someone in the power section happens to run across the talent. Mary didn't get offers because Mary didn't go after it. She spent the first year or so of her solo career fighting Motown. She took the deal Motown offered and was locked into that until 1980. In that time it is highly doubtful she ever knocked on anyone's label door asking for an audition or a meeting.

She mentions shopping her demos around in the 80s, but doesn't go into the details. The one fish who seemed to bite was that Bogart dude and then he died. She did demos in the late 80s for Atlantic but nothing came of that and no one seems to know why, although it might be as simple as Atlantic hearing the demos and being disinterested.

Mary was never in a position to sit at home and wait on the phone to ring with offers of record contracts. Artists all over the industry were hustling, banging on doors, trying to get opportunities. There isn't much evidence that Mary had this same mentality. Perhaps if she had, she may have found herself a label, even a small one, that was willing to get behind her talent.

She also didn't do herself any favors by hiring inept management. The success of Dreamgirl should have netted Mary a deal somewhere, if only on the strength of publicity, and a good manager would have secured that.

[sup_fan]

I'm 100 percent positive Mary Wilson received no offers for a solo deal, aside from what Motown offered her, for the first few years after leaving the Supremes. The thing is that only the biggest acts received unsolicited offers, aside from newly discovered acts where someone in the power section happens to run across the talent. Mary didn't get offers because Mary didn't go after it. She spent the first year or so of her solo career fighting Motown. She took the deal Motown offered and was locked into that until 1980. In that time it is highly doubtful she ever knocked on anyone's label door asking for an audition or a meeting.

She mentions shopping her demos around in the 80s, but doesn't go into the details. The one fish who seemed to bite was that Bogart dude and then he died. She did demos in the late 80s for Atlantic but nothing came of that and no one seems to know why, although it might be as simple as Atlantic hearing the demos and being disinterested.

Mary was never in a position to sit at home and wait on the phone to ring with offers of record contracts. Artists all over the industry were hustling, banging on doors, trying to get opportunities. There isn't much evidence that Mary had this same mentality. Perhaps if she had, she may have found herself a label, even a small one, that was willing to get behind her talent.

She also didn't do herself any favors by hiring inept management. The success of Dreamgirl should have netted Mary a deal somewhere, if only on the strength of publicity, and a good manager would have secured that.

but she was 42 or so when Dreamgirl came out. that's gonna be tough to sell into a record company that someone at that age is ready to start a pop solo career.

she did try branching into other areas at least - did a little acting here and there. some auditions.

i think her strongest bet would have been to go into jazz, blues and heavier r&b ballad work. i don't know how much of a market there was for that but adult r&b could have been a niche for her. and from there you could get the occasional crossover pop ballad hit

[BayouMotownMan]

Was Flo ever diagnosed by a medical professional as to having mental health issues?

Back then they didn't know about PTSD or bipolar disorder. She wound up on anti-depressants, I think traces of one was in her blood at the time of death.

In fact, on one of Flo's entrances into the hospital to "dry out" so to speak she tried to tell her doctor's she was an alcoholic. They dismissed it, if you can believe.