Why didn't Motown like Mary Wilson?

[jim aka jtigre99]

It seems to me that Motown was always quite indifferent to Mary Wilson. I don't understand why. She was certainly extremely attractive and photogenic. She was clearly one third of the Supremes, adding a distinctive lower voice to the group dynamic and a visual poise ,elegance and sophistication to their performances. In fact, one of the Hollands wanted her for the lead on Where Did Our Love Go and her background vocals are very distinctive and hypnotic against Diana's lead. So, why didn't Motown like her?
When Flo left and it became DRATS, they caused a shift in dynamic. I am sure Mary was on her guard after what happened to Flo. There was probably a deep unresolved tension between Diana and Mary. It probably no longer felt like a group and she was merely working to support Diana's solo aspirations. Mary always provided a happy go lucky presence but behind the scenes we don't know if she became difficult. DRATS was probably 3 years of tension for Motown.
When Diana left, the focus was more on her solo aspirations at Motown than on keeping the new Supremes on top. Berry allegedly wanted Syreeta to replace Jean but was told no. They were still the Supremes, though, and the name meant something and would bring in cash so it seems Motown supported that but certainly not Mary.
I just wonder why Motown wasn't behind Mary. A beautiful woman with a warm ballad voice, she could have easily been Motown's balladeer. It doesn't seem like she was friendly with those at Motown who controlled careers. Yes, she was buddies with some other group members but she wasn't seemingly with Berry or the likes of Smokey and Stevie. Was Mary difficult to work with? Unambitious? Unlikeable? Her talents at odds with the standard Motown sound? Her relations with Diana in the group cause others to choose sides and no one in power was siding against the powers of Diana & Berry? Was Mary so much of a party girl that her work ethic suffered?
I understand that Motown grew weary of the changes in the group in the 1970's and that it seemed that whoever came in seemed to have difficulties with Mary, who as the only original had the most say by this time. I understand Motown did not like Mary's husband Pedro having control of the group, that they did not like him. Mary becoming so litigious probably didn't endear her to Motown. Her solo career only came about because she had a good case against Motown. They treated her like a throw away, gave her material that didn't play to her strengths. But, still after all those years, it seemed no one at Motown was on her side. My big question is why? Mary had talent, she was beautiful and was fully one third of the biggest act at Motown and she seemed to be treated like a second class citizen.
So, why didn't Motown like Mary Wilson?

[marybrewster]

It seems to me that Motown was always quite indifferent to Mary Wilson. I don't understand why.

"She was certainly extremely attractive and photogenic.
A beautiful woman with a warm ballad voice
Mary had talent, she was beautiful"

Maybe if she was uglier they would have liked her better?

[daviddh]

Because ,when women stand up for themselves, they are labeled difficult. But if a man does it ,he's doing his job.
BG fired Florence.by who's authority..he wasn't a supremes.it should have been up to Diana and Mary.
She stood up for her group and was removed.
But they didn't try this non sense with the male groups imo

[Spreadinglove21]

Diana Ross knew how to play the game. Not only did she work her butt off to develop her singing and performing talents, but she played office politics to the hilt and impressed the right people both with her work ethic and her shenanigans [[stealing from other acts, snitching on others, picking fights, casting couch sexual antics [[no #MeToo cries from Miss Ross a few years back), etc.). And the public bought the Ross led product which ensured she kept climbing.

Mary was Miss Casswell to Diana's Eve Harrington for all intents and purposes when it came to playing the game to get ahead.

[jobeterob]

I don’t think it was a question of like. I also don’t think beautiful could take her very far.

I think it was about business and there were no hits from Mary herself and as Mary said, the albums from the 70’s Supremes didn’t sell well. It was a downward trend after Stoned Love. No record company will continue to throw money after something that isn’t working out. And Mary and Pedro were their own worst enemies.

Mary should have focused and did what Otis and Duke did to keep their groups alive. People dislike Otis a lot but he lasted.

[sup_fan]

this is just an opinion and one that is sort of cobbled together from years of other fans discussions and stories. i think the issue revolved around a general personality difference between mary and berry. i'm not saying they didn't like one another or didn't get along, at least back in the 60s. but berry and diana were totally aligned on their almost maniacal focus on success. yes berry was extremely controlling of her and all. but diana was also just as razor focused on perfection and success.

mary also had a more specific voice that didn't always fit the pop sound he was after. berry wanted to find a female artist that could do anything and everything. that wasn't mary. and berry really wasn't able to see how different artists could ALL be successful and not take away or erode the success of the other. look at how he did nothing really for Glady Horton or Gladys Knight or Martha once Diana became hot.

mary was a very different personality. she was more easy going, come what may, go with the flow. she was super talented as a singer but didn't have that crazy-focused drive. part of that could be age - she was a young adult after all and wanted a personal life. i think mary was also one that was just naturally able to do the choreography and dancing. she had an ease about her back then and she always looked lovely and perfectly timed during their dance routines. whereas flo was always a bit awkward.

maybe the easiest way to explain the differences is Diana and Berry were workaholics and mary insisted on work/life balance. as such, berry didn't see the drive in her that he was wanting and as the group evolved into DRATS she took more of a backseat in things. again, berry could have seen this as weakness or laziness. he always promoted competition and probably would have responded more positively if mary had "fought" for things more.

Berry was also a person were once he had you categorized or labeled in his mind, it was done. little likelihood of changing that. and when she was really more interested in stepping up and leading, it was well after diana had left and then berry and motown didn't really care any more

[sup_fan]

I don’t think it was a question of like. I also don’t think beautiful could take her very far.

I think it was about business and there were no hits from Mary herself and as Mary said, the albums from the 70’s Supremes didn’t sell well. It was a downward trend after Stoned Love. No record company will continue to throw money after something that isn’t working out. And Mary and Pedro were their own worst enemies.

Mary should have focused and did what Otis and Duke did to keep their groups alive. People dislike Otis a lot but he lasted.

totally agree that mary's biggest path to success was as part of a group. keeping the sups going would have been her best option. but the group needed sound management. something that could help them continue to be a public entity.

[jobeterob]

In retrospect, it seems that Mary came to a similar realization and reckoning to the one Diana had. Diana wanted control and away from Berry’s hands.

Mary wanted away from the control of Motown but also later on, of Pedro and then the power of Diana.

And she didn’t care if she was eliminated from events and tours - she chose her own path

[captainjames]

I believe Motown liked Mary as well as all the ladies in the group. My opinion if Motown did not like you or wanted you gone they would have found a way to stop recording you put you on the back burner from touring. Berry wanted to be "IT" and by that I mean the producer, arranger, entrepreneuer and film maker. He wanted to branch out in TV, Films and everything else he could to put him at the top and he saw Diana as the one to help him get there. Also, in my opinion I don't think Mary really wanted Diana to leave because of the way and things she said when Diana did leave. Mary was comfortable and would have stayed a Supreme forever if she could with Diana. There were group problems with all the Supreme groups [[read Dreamgirls and I remember the lines where Mary would say "Here we go again"). I think Diana and Mary still loved each other but just were not as close as the years went on. Motown or Berry said Mary was the heart and/or soul of the Supremes, Diana reached out to Mary several times after leaving whether the lost of a love one or when in need. Also, I believe Mary even made one of her kids the godchild of Diana. I don't think Motown and/or Diana disliked her but people do grow up and move on. In my opinion they went through too much BS not to care for each other.

[BayouMotownMan]

It's not the Motown didn't like Mary, they just felt her contribution to the Supremes was more in image instead of talent. Mary had a deep singing voice much like Tina Turner or Anita Baker. In the 60s, it was the sweet higher pitched women who had the hit records. Connie Francis, Brenda Lee, Streisand, etc. Gladys Knight sang in the lower reaches and as you see her success was limited to only a couple hits now and then. She didn't explode on the scene until the mid 70s when music was changing.

I think what irked Berry during that period was that Mary snuck around and enjoyed her fame much moreso than the others. She got involved with the "party" crowd. Berry always advised the ladies to keep a distance from fans but Mary entertained them.

While she was partying Mary paid no attention into developing her voice into more of a lead singer. Therefore when Diana left, Motown did not want to invest in a group of Supremes with Mary as lead because her voice was not dependable, nor was it commercial. It wasn't until the mid 70s that Mary started taking vocal lessons and strengthened her voice. The years of heavy smoking and partying took a toll on her singing I'm afraid.

Then when Jean and Lynda left and Mary kept complaining to the media that she was being swept under the rug, Motown considered her a pain in the neck. Suzanne dePasse was once heard to say "the only thing Mary could do was look good." That summed it up. She was scenery for Diana.

Then when she wrote her books, Diana, Suzanne and Berry distanced themselves from her. She was now considered a loose cannon. Suzanne never forgave Mary for the Motown 25 debacle.

[blackguy69]

I always find it interesting that the women were criticized got being party girls while the men were left alone even though they were out there partying harder than the women. I don’t believe that Mary didn’t want or work to develop her voice. It’s hard to develop when all you’re doing is ooo’s and ahhhh’s . They were begging to sing more leads .

[midnightman]

My guess is Mary after a certain point became known as "the party girl" that seemingly didn't care as much [[though she did care, I mean, the Supremes wouldn't have survived as long as it did without Diana if Mary wasn't trying). I think Mary just didn't like to be controlled and told what to do and that probably led to some hard feelings between her and Berry. Also that conversation about Berry wanting to suddenly replace Jean with Syreeta the night of the final show with Diana in Vegas and him telling her "to hell with it" pretty much probably played a factor here too.

[sup_fan]

I always find it interesting that the women were criticized got being party girls while the men were left alone even though they were out there partying harder than the women. I don’t believe that Mary didn’t want or work to develop her voice. It’s hard to develop when all you’re doing is ooo’s and ahhhh’s . They were begging to sing more leads .

unfortunately it's a double standard that still exists today. it's great for men to be studs but women are whores. motown was definitely a chauvinistic environment.

[jobeterob]

It's not the Motown didn't like Mary, they just felt her contribution to the Supremes was more in image instead of talent. Mary had a deep singing voice much like Tina Turner or Anita Baker. In the 60s, it was the sweet higher pitched women who had the hit records. Connie Francis, Brenda Lee, Streisand, etc. Gladys Knight sang in the lower reaches and as you see her success was limited to only a couple hits now and then. She didn't explode on the scene until the mid 70s when music was changing.

I think what irked Berry during that period was that Mary snuck around and enjoyed her fame much moreso than the others. She got involved with the "party" crowd. Berry always advised the ladies to keep a distance from fans but Mary entertained them.

While she was partying Mary paid no attention into developing her voice into more of a lead singer. Therefore when Diana left, Motown did not want to invest in a group of Supremes with Mary as lead because her voice was not dependable, nor was it commercial. It wasn't until the mid 70s that Mary started taking vocal lessons and strengthened her voice. The years of heavy smoking and partying took a toll on her singing I'm afraid.

Then when Jean and Lynda left and Mary kept complaining to the media that she was being swept under the rug, Motown considered her a pain in the neck. Suzanne dePasse was once heard to say "the only thing Mary could do was look good." That summed it up. She was scenery for Diana.

Then when she wrote her books, Diana, Suzanne and Berry distanced themselves from her. She was now considered a loose cannon. Suzanne never forgave Mary for the Motown 25 debacle.

This really spells out that Motown considered Mary as little more than window dressing especially after about 1972

[BobbyC]

Spreadinglove--I couldn't say it better myself. We humans have a need to simplify things--we want there to be just one reason why someone left a group. In DR's case, it was many things, culminating in the end result: super stardom. I think Mary had a good attitude about being in a group, but DR's almost ruthless need for acceptance propelled her across her entire career. Mary wanted to be loved and accepted, of course, But DR DEMANDED it.

[BayouMotownMan]

My guess is Mary after a certain point became known as "the party girl" that seemingly didn't care as much [[though she did care, I mean, the Supremes wouldn't have survived as long as it did without Diana if Mary wasn't trying). I think Mary just didn't like to be controlled and told what to do and that probably led to some hard feelings between her and Berry. Also that conversation about Berry wanting to suddenly replace Jean with Syreeta the night of the final show with Diana in Vegas and him telling her "to hell with it" pretty much probably played a factor here too.

If Mary didn't like being controlled she wouldn't have stayed with an abusive man for 7 yrs who beat her ferociously and drained her bank account. Pedro Ferrer was far more controlling than Berry Gordy

[jobeterob]

If Mary didn't like being controlled she wouldn't have stayed with an abusive man for 7 yrs who beat her ferociously and drained her bank account. Pedro Ferrer was far more controlling than Berry Gordy

If you read Will You Love Me Tomorrow, you will see these groups were rife with abusive men, drug problems and alcohol problems. It was a different time where some of these issues weren’t even acknowledged or talked about. We also weren’t dealing with a highly educated crowd that could have more easily accessed at least information if not assistance.

What I got out of that book was that most of these women ended up with next to nothing or nothing - if there was an exception, it was Ross and perhaps a Suprene??

[marybrewster]

Didn't BG once say that Mary was too "available"? I'm not sure how to take that.

Was it because she was a single girl at a sausage buffet? LOL. He's a fine one to talk.

[BayouMotownMan]

Didn't BG once say that Mary was too "available"? I'm not sure how to take that.

Was it because she was a single girl at a sausage buffet? LOL. He's a fine one to talk.

yea well that was the double standard. He could bone whatever women he wanted but when Ross started dating a football player he put an end to it quick, threatening her with her career. When she got pregnant, obviously a trap to force Gordy to marry her, he reneged; he knew they were incompatible enough in just a dating situation but something committed would have been explosive. Many at Motown said the whole Bob Ellis thing was arranged for PR purposes. Diana didn't fall head over heels in love again until 15 yrs later with Arne Naess. And it was the same double standard.

[Ollie9]

If Mary didn't like being controlled she wouldn't have stayed with an abusive man for 7 yrs who beat her ferociously and drained her bank account. Pedro Ferrer was far more controlling than Berry Gordy

Personal and professional are two very vey different things. Are you saying Mary might have enjoyed being beaten and abused as reasons the marriage lasted that long?.
From my experience of wives in that situation, they often cling to the hope that things will get better, while being told they are still loved and it will never happen again.

[sup_fan]

Mary has stated that she appreciated and wanted pedro's strong personality when it came to her career. that she wanted someone strong to fight for her.

i'm not a woman and not a woman that grew up in the 40's and 50s in the US. i can speculate however that many women in that period were unaccustomed to "fighting" for themselves. they were taught to be deferential. and if you take Mary's strict upbringing with her aunt, even more so.

so everything around had told her it was a "man's world" and that men make the decisions. but what happens when the men making those decisions might not have your best interest in mind? and you know this? Well one answer could be to find a man that's "strong" and will fight for you. that's essentially what mary did.

[Boogiedown]

They reinvented The Supremes around her [multiple times].
They paired her with The Temptations and The Four Tops.
They brought in Jimmy Webb to bolster her.
They threw Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson at her.
They brought back HDH for her.

She got her own album.

They put out 30 albums [including her own] in which she is the only sustaining factor.

[jobeterob]

They reinvented The Supremes around her [multiple times].
They paired her with The Temptations and The Four Tops.
They brought in Jimmy Webb to bolster her.
They threw Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson at her.
They brought back HDH for her.

She got her own album.

They put out 30 albums [including her own] in which she is the only sustaining factor.

So are you saying we should sing “who could ask for anything more?”

I think your comments are fair. So often we hear Motown did this to Mary, Martha, Florence, Brenda, Chris, David etc

But you can only promote so much and so many and when there are no hits, you can’t keep going forever. And many of these women had no hits

The endless no promotion and conspiracy theories don’t hold much water

[Roberta75]

Mary has stated that she appreciated and wanted pedro's strong personality when it came to her career. that she wanted someone strong to fight for her.

i'm not a woman and not a woman that grew up in the 40's and 50s in the US. i can speculate however that many women in that period were unaccustomed to "fighting" for themselves. they were taught to be deferential. and if you take Mary's strict upbringing with her aunt, even more so.

so everything around had told her it was a "man's world" and that men make the decisions. but what happens when the men making those decisions might not have your best interest in mind? and you know this? Well one answer could be to find a man that's "strong" and will fight for you. that's essentially what mary did.

Any man that beats a woman is pure scum. Pedro Ferrer will roast in the hottest part of Hell for beating Mary Wilson to a pulp unless he shows remorse and donates money and time to a battered woman shelter and strays to whatever God he worships for forgivenesss. Shame on him and BRAVO to Mary Wilson for removing herself and her kids from him. Back in the 1970s and 1980s women would get beaten up by husbands and partners and hide in the house until the cuts and bruises healed. Today women don't have to take that. God forgive me but if any man ever beat me I think Id take the heaviest block of wood and crack there legs while they were sleeping. I know it isn't very Godly and I hope id of better but my initial instinct would be to break there rotten assed legs.

[Boogiedown]

So are you saying we should sing “who could ask for anything more?”

I think your comments are fair. So often we hear Motown did this to Mary, Martha, Florence, Brenda, Chris, David etc

But you can only promote so much and so many and when there are no hits, you can’t keep going forever. And many of these women had no hits

The endless no promotion and conspiracy theories don’t hold much water

who could ask for anything moooore

I think it's fair to say at some point within this agreement , the ball is in her court.


Other than that other Supreme, did any other women have as long a contract at Motown as did Mary Wilson??

[marybrewster]

who could ask for anything moooore

I think it's fair to say at some point within this agreement , the ball is in her court.


Other than that other Supreme, did any other women have as long a contract at Motown as did Mary Wilson??

Claudette comes to mind.

[Boogiedown]

Claudette comes to mind.

OK.

I'll word it another way, were there any other women at Motown that weren't sleeping with their bosses, that had longer contracts than Mary Wilson?

[sup_fan]

Any man that beats a woman is pure scum. Pedro Ferrer will roast in the hottest part of Hell for beating Mary Wilson to a pulp unless he shows remorse and donates money and time to a battered woman shelter and strays to whatever God he worships for forgivenesss. Shame on him and BRAVO to Mary Wilson for removing herself and her kids from him. Back in the 1970s and 1980s women would get beaten up by husbands and partners and hide in the house until the cuts and bruises healed. Today women don't have to take that. God forgive me but if any man ever beat me I think Id take the heaviest block of wood and crack there legs while they were sleeping. I know it isn't very Godly and I hope id of better but my initial instinct would be to break there rotten assed legs.

completely agree with you. i was simply posting about pedro from the business side of things and what mary had stated in her book about their professional relationship. in that regard, she tends to make some positive statements about pedro. that he helped her identify her contribution to the group - my guess is mary was maybe feeling lost in Diana's and then jean's shadows. she mentions that he was there to fight for mary's interest whereas maybe she wasn't able to. she also gives him some credit for decent management around hiring top notch musicians and photographers and the like. of course she definitely brings up some of his professional flaws too - lack of organization, the fighting with S and S, etc. in the end, she does give him some of the credit for helping the group continue as long as it did and as a result we got albums like MS&S.

does any of this excuse his personal behavior towards her, of course not. but for this discussion and thread, we're talking about mary's relationship with motown and why it was/wasn't successful so i'm only looking at the pedro/mary relationship from the professional side

[jobeterob]

OK.

I'll word it another way, were there any other women at Motown that weren't sleeping with their bosses, that had longer contracts than Mary Wilson?

How about “longer contracts and no hits” or longer contracts and sold fewer than 5000 records?

[reese]

OK.

I'll word it another way, were there any other women at Motown that weren't sleeping with their bosses, that had longer contracts than Mary Wilson?

Not longer than Mary but Syreeta lasted quite a while at Motown, maybe 15 years or so.

[BayouMotownMan]

OK, I think I can speak on the marital abuse from experience. My mother was a battered woman. I watched it helplessly for 12 years. Not only is there emotional damage done to the wife but to the children as well and in my 20s I had extensive therapy in order to process the events that led up and caused this situation.

It's never an easy answer as to why the woman stays in that situation. I didn't get up the nerve to talk to my mother about this until long after my father died and I was grown. I might add, my father's death was a relief to all of us, including him. She was really the only one who grieved for him

In most situations, the man whittles down the woman's self-confidence and self-respect so that she feels she has no alternative but to stay. That was my mom's situation. She was dependent on my father for income as she was a stay at home mom. The abuse starts small and then grows when the man sees just how much he can get away with, leading up to beating the woman to a pulp as it did with Mary or even killing the woman in extreme circumstances as it did with OJ. [[And yes, I believe he did it.) Luckily in my family it never got that drastic. My father died young however, at 45. But my biggest fear was that he would one day kill my mother. A child should never have to live with that kind of fear.

So the woman just accepts that she is the blame and the cause for the violence. The woman justifies the man's abuse and walks on egg shells trying not to arouse that violence again. Just when she thinks she had learned to please him and live peacefully, at her own expense of course, something usually inconsequential will result in yet another beating.

Then I had to learn as an adult, what caused my father to go off. He was an alcoholic, also common in such situations. There are usually some kind of chemical dependency. Many wives drink with the husband in an effort to make him feel he has company. In my dad's case he went into WWII as a quiet, soft-spoken young man. He fought in Normandy and saw atrocities I won't even go into. Can you imagine giving a cute little German 5 year old a nickle for some candy and then the kid detonates in front of you? Just one of many things he saw. He was wounded and left for dead, he crawled back to his boat barely making it in time. My mother met him at a hospital in Memphis and nursed him for weeks before bringing him back home. Slowly, ever so gradually, the abuse started.

This may shed some light on why Mary stayed with Pedro. Also we know nothing about Pedro's childhood and the many things that may have led to his abusive behavior.

We are in a different world now. There are shelters for homeless woman everywhere. Protection they didn't feel they had. That wasn't available to my mom or to Mary. Or Florence. It was just the plight of women I guess. It was accepted. Even family members accept it.

I remember being at a funeral for my father's brother about ten years ago. I only had two aunts left, my daddy's sisters. Somehow we got on the subject of my daddy and I made the comment about how difficult it was watching him beat my mother. Those two women looked at each other and laughed. I was absolutely livid and had to walk out of the funeral parlor to hold my tongue. So I learned yet another aspect of husbandry abuse; Many saw it as a sign of masculinity. It was virile.

I never married. I never trusted myself with partners or children. I too have a temper. I just wasn't going to take that chance. That was the fallout from my experience with spousal abuse.

[Roberta75]

OK, I think I can speak on the marital abuse from experience. My mother was a battered woman. I watched it helplessly for 12 years. Not only is there emotional damage done to the wife but to the children as well and in my 20s I had extensive therapy in order to process the events that led up and caused this situation.

It's never an easy answer as to why the woman stays in that situation. I didn't get up the nerve to talk to my mother about this until long after my father died and I was grown. I might add, my father's death was a relief to all of us, including him. She was really the only one who grieved for him

In most situations, the man whittles down the woman's self-confidence and self-respect so that she feels she has no alternative but to stay. That was my mom's situation. She was dependent on my father for income as she was a stay at home mom. The abuse starts small and then grows when the man sees just how much he can get away with, leading up to beating the woman to a pulp as it did with Mary or even killing the woman in extreme circumstances as it did with OJ. [[And yes, I believe he did it.) Luckily in my family it never got that drastic. My father died young however, at 45. But my biggest fear was that he would one day kill my mother. A child should never have to live with that kind of fear.

So the woman just accepts that she is the blame and the cause for the violence. The woman justifies the man's abuse and walks on egg shells trying not to arouse that violence again. Just when she thinks she had learned to please him and live peacefully, at her own expense of course, something usually inconsequential will result in yet another beating.

Then I had to learn as an adult, what caused my father to go off. He was an alcoholic, also common in such situations. There are usually some kind of chemical dependency. Many wives drink with the husband in an effort to make him feel he has company. In my dad's case he went into WWII as a quiet, soft-spoken young man. He fought in Normandy and saw atrocities I won't even go into. Can you imagine giving a cute little German 5 year old a nickle for some candy and then the kid detonates in front of you? Just one of many things he saw. He was wounded and left for dead, he crawled back to his boat barely making it in time. My mother met him at a hospital in Memphis and nursed him for weeks before bringing him back home. Slowly, ever so gradually, the abuse started.

This may shed some light on why Mary stayed with Pedro. Also we know nothing about Pedro's childhood and the many things that may have led to his abusive behavior.

We are in a different world now. There are shelters for homeless woman everywhere. Protection they didn't feel they had. That wasn't available to my mom or to Mary. Or Florence. It was just the plight of women I guess. It was accepted. Even family members accept it.

I remember being at a funeral for my father's brother about ten years ago. I only had two aunts left, my daddy's sisters. Somehow we got on the subject of my daddy and I made the comment about how difficult it was watching him beat my mother. Those two women looked at each other and laughed. I was absolutely livid and had to walk out of the funeral parlor to hold my tongue. So I learned yet another aspect of husbandry abuse; Many saw it as a sign of masculinity. It was virile.

I never married. I never trusted myself with partners or children. I too have a temper. I just wasn't going to take that chance. That was the fallout from my experience with spousal abuse.

Thank you for sharing such a painful and personal part of your life. I do appreciate you posting this as we more we talk about spousal abuse the more awareness we bring to it. Men who beat women are weak bullies and scum IMO. I hope and pray you heal from what you went through and find peace. God bless you.

[marybrewster]

OK.

I'll word it another way, were there any other women at Motown that weren't sleeping with their bosses, that had longer contracts than Mary Wilson?

Lol, when you put it that way.....

[marybrewster]

A girlfriend of mine just posted this:

7, the average number of times it takes a person to leave their abuser. 12, the number of years I opted to stay with said abuser. 10, the number of years TODAY since the police stood in my driveway and ordered him to grab what he needed and turn over his keys to me. 2, the confirmed number of times he broke into my home after he was ordered out. 4, the number of times he violated the OFP before going to prison for far shorter than he should have. 3, the number of women who have attempted to contact me after being hurt in their own relationships with him. Grounded...a punishment often issued to children after misbehaving and how I felt most of my relationship. But look up grounded and you will find the definition "well balanced and sensible"...ok, work in progress.

So when people ask "Why didn't Mary just leave Pedro?" here's a look into possibly why.

Mary is the definition of survivor. To constantly berate her for career choices and professional relationships is Fking ridiculous.

[Roberta75]

A girlfriend of mine just posted this:

7, the average number of times it takes a person to leave their abuser. 12, the number of years I opted to stay with said abuser. 10, the number of years TODAY since the police stood in my driveway and ordered him to grab what he needed and turn over his keys to me. 2, the confirmed number of times he broke into my home after he was ordered out. 4, the number of times he violated the OFP before going to prison for far shorter than he should have. 3, the number of women who have attempted to contact me after being hurt in their own relationships with him. Grounded...a punishment often issued to children after misbehaving and how I felt most of my relationship. But look up grounded and you will find the definition "well balanced and sensible"...ok, work in progress.

So when people ask "Why didn't Mary just leave Pedro?" here's a look into possibly why.

Mary is the definition of survivor. To constantly berate her for career choices and professional relationships is Fking ridiculous.

120% agree with you dear MaryBrewster. Mary should have done a Lorenna Bobbit and whacked off Pedros Di*k.

[jobeterob]

120% agree with you dear MaryBrewster. Mary should have done a Lorenna Bobbit and whacked off Pedros Di*k.

Um, is it permissible to say - I think she did, at least the whacking off part

She just didn’t take the final step to chop it right off

[midnightman]

A girlfriend of mine just posted this:

7, the average number of times it takes a person to leave their abuser. 12, the number of years I opted to stay with said abuser. 10, the number of years TODAY since the police stood in my driveway and ordered him to grab what he needed and turn over his keys to me. 2, the confirmed number of times he broke into my home after he was ordered out. 4, the number of times he violated the OFP before going to prison for far shorter than he should have. 3, the number of women who have attempted to contact me after being hurt in their own relationships with him. Grounded...a punishment often issued to children after misbehaving and how I felt most of my relationship. But look up grounded and you will find the definition "well balanced and sensible"...ok, work in progress.

So when people ask "Why didn't Mary just leave Pedro?" here's a look into possibly why.

Mary is the definition of survivor. To constantly berate her for career choices and professional relationships is Fking ridiculous.

Abusive relationships are a MOTHER. It's amazing she left when she did. Pedro could've easily killed her.

[midnightman]

unfortunately it's a double standard that still exists today. it's great for men to be studs but women are whores. motown was definitely a chauvinistic environment.

Right. Marvin, Smokey and David could have all the ladies in the world but Mary and Diana are "h**s". The double standard is freaking ridiculous.

[Ollie9]

Right. Marvin, Smokey and David could have all the ladies in the world but Mary and Diana are "h**s". The double standard is freaking ridiculous.

Men are often at the mercy of their testosterone levels.

[midnightman]

Men are often at the mercy of their testosterone levels.

Lol hey don't blame them, their penises got a mind of its own.

[jobeterob]

Lol hey don't blame them, their penises got a mind of its own.

Some of our most fun times were when it wouldn’t stay down

[TheMotownManiac]

Diana Ross knew how to play the game. Not only did she work her butt off to develop her singing and performing talents, but she played office politics to the hilt and impressed the right people both with her work ethic and her shenanigans [[stealing from other acts, snitching on others, picking fights, casting couch sexual antics [[no #MeToo cries from Miss Ross a few years back), etc.). And the public bought the Ross led product which ensured she kept climbing.Mary was Miss Casswell to Diana's Eve Harrington for all intents and purposes when it came to playing the game to get ahead.

I couldn’t agree more. Mary was definitely from the “Copacabanya” school of vocal artistry. She had a wonderful, but extremely limited vocal quality that took 20 years to develop into something more marketable. Even with all the leads, she did in the 70s, she didn’t grow as a performer. When she finally realized where her strengths lay, She became A credible soloist, but still with a very limited appeal. Her most loyal fans, like most loyal fans, can’t see past their love for her to see her weaknesses that kept her from solo stardom. I don’t think it’s necessarily true that Motown didn’t like Mary as much as they were probably just not impressed, and certainly not interested in developing, her talent. It might be that Gordy didn’t care for Mary. I’ve always had that impression.

Gordy saw the potential in diana ross from the beginning. She didn’t become an 80-year-old icon by happenstance. Her natural charisma, style and star power could not be taught, copied or learned. She also took advantage of every opportunity possible, as you mentioned. But she made good on them.

[Circa 1824]

As an outside observer, Mary was hard to like after Diana left the group. She knew her place, but often refused to accept it. Everything was exaggerated to the hilt. IMHO, her talent and performances were utterly average. I remember running to move the needle off the record when I Can’t Take Amy Eyes Off You was ready to play. I hated that Motown put it on a DRATS album, thus spoiling it.

[Ollie9]

Lol hey don't blame them, their penises got a mind of its own.

If only one could flick a switch.

[Ollie9]

Mary was Miss Casswell to Diana's Eve Harrington for all intents and purposes when it came to playing the game to get ahead.

If Mary was M’s Casswell and Diana Eve Harrington, does that make Flo Margo Channing?.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I have a different perspective since I became a fan in 1970 when Jean started with the Supremes and Diana Ross was a soloist. I liked them both for different reasons.
I was drawn in with Jean's voice but was unimpressed with her television appearances. She changed her vocal approach with the Touch LP which had a different sound than the Supremes, more full bodied and less driven by a danceable sound. She rebounded with Floy Joy, aided by Mary. Then with Jimmy Webb, she sounded shrill. I had a friend watch a You Tube video of JML doing Bad Weather and they stated that Mary seemed to be trying so hard to garner excitement but they felt this trio did not have "it". They called Jean "that nasal thing" and wondered who Lynda was saying they felt she didn't add anything to it like Flo and Cindy did. Their opinion not mine and they only know the Supremes very marginally.
I always like Diana Ross although she could be too over the top and too theatrical in look and performance. I never really judged her as a Supreme because that was before my time. She may be an icon but somehow the media and general public don't seem to be as crazy for her as say they go for Streisand, Cher or the like. She has a distinctive, pliable voice but it is very thin.
I have always liked Mary Wilson's voice and look but am well aware she has shortcomings. I think all of the group had talent but they all have shortcomings, even Ross but no one points to others, only Wilson. Mary's voice was deep and not a soprano and that was needed for the sound and it has a great deal of warmth to it. I figure Motown didn't like her because her voice didn't lend itself as easily to the danceable Motown sound. Still, she could have been Motown's female balladeer. Diana's voice could be weak, Flo was too loud and unstable, Mary had limitations. None were perfect. Lots of fans and general public wanted them all to sound like Ross but as a group that would have been horrible. Imagine a trio of Diana Ross, Jean Terrell and Susaye Greene.
Yes, Motown did not like Mary's sound but many fans wanted her to sound like Diana because they liked her and her voice. I accept that as much as the fact that I accept liking Mary's voice and talent as well.

[jim aka jtigre99]

If Mary was M’s Casswell and Diana Eve Harrington, does that make Flo Margo Channing?.

LOL, I can just hear Flo saying to them on her last show "fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night".

[Spreadinglove21]

If Mary was M’s Casswell and Diana Eve Harrington, does that make Flo Margo Channing?.

No, not Margo Channing as Margo was already an established star. I'd say, going outside of All About Eve, Lora Meredith in that scene early in Imitation of Life when she's outraged when the agent says if she has to eat and sleep with the Dramatist Club to get ahead and she storms out of the office and goes home to have a big cry. But Flo is only like that version of Lora. Not the one later who after first taste of Broadway success entices the playwright to always write comedies for her and over the next 10 years becomes a self absorbed diva. That Lora is more like Miss Ross after years of stardom. I could see Lora writing an autobiography along the lines of Secrets of a Sparrow.

[TheMotownManiac]

I think the powers that be at Motown didn’t care for Mary because of the following reasons.

1. When Gordy was trying to find out who was driving the station wagon, Mary lied to him. He may have felt she was not trustworthy after that. There would be future instances where he may be looking at her with a jaundiced eye.

2. it’s well-known Her tardiness was a major thorn in the side of artist development and those working on their act. Mary’s tardiness never improved much.

3. I’ve always suspected that Gordy was aware that not all was how it appeared as far as the dynamic of DMF. It’s widely suspected that mary was playing both sides against the middle for quite a while and that would not have helped her stock with Gordy. Cindy talk to me several times about the power play She stepped into when she joined the group. And that was all Mary. It may be they were aware of that and other antagonisms.

4. Her behavior at the farewell concert was inexcusable. Deke Richards told me the amount of work required to salvage some of those songs because of mary’s behavior. That would not have entered her to anyone at the company. I also think it helps. Explain Gordy‘s anger after the show. In the morning phone call.

5. They never cared for her voice, it seems. And refusing to let her sing lead in an emergency, underscores that fact. Her decision to increase her role in lead singing in the 70s might not have been popular.

6. Turning over the management of the group to Pedro may have seemed like a stupid amateur thing to do, which it was. It’s unlikely she garnered any respect for that move.

I don’t think they saw any value with her whatsoever, other than as a pretty background singer. There would be no reason to not develop her if they thought she was good. Or, sign her up and develop her after ross left the company. I don’t blame her for feeling that she was underappreciated, because she was right or wrong, if there is a right or wrong in this case, they did seem to not appreciate her.

[bradsupremes]

I think the powers that be at Motown didn’t care for Mary because of the following reasons.

1. When Gordy was trying to find out who was driving the station wagon, Mary lied to him. He may have felt she was not trustworthy after that. There would be future instances where he may be looking at her with a jaundiced eye.

2. it’s well-known Her tardiness was a major thorn in the side of artist development and those working on their act. Mary’s tardiness never improved much.

3. I’ve always suspected that Gordy was aware that not all was how it appeared as far as the dynamic of DMF. It’s widely suspected that mary was playing both sides against the middle for quite a while and that would not have helped her stock with Gordy. Cindy talk to me several times about the power play She stepped into when she joined the group. And that was all Mary. It may be they were aware of that and other antagonisms.

4. Her behavior at the farewell concert was inexcusable. Deke Richards told me the amount of work required to salvage some of those songs because of mary’s behavior. That would not have entered her to anyone at the company. I also think it helps. Explain Gordy‘s anger after the show. In the morning phone call.

5. They never cared for her voice, it seems. And refusing to let her sing lead in an emergency, underscores that fact. Her decision to increase her role in lead singing in the 70s might not have been popular.

6. Turning over the management of the group to Pedro may have seemed like a stupid amateur thing to do, which it was. It’s unlikely she garnered any respect for that move.

I don’t think they saw any value with her whatsoever, other than as a pretty background singer. There would be no reason to not develop her if they thought she was good. Or, sign her up and develop her after ross left the company. I don’t blame her for feeling that she was underappreciated, because she was right or wrong, if there is a right or wrong in this case, they did seem to not appreciate her.

A few corrections...

2.) Yes, she was tardy but it never showed in her work. For all the talk that she was late to things, she never missed her mark. Diana even said that Mary kept her on her toes. She may have been late, but she was no slouch. The woman was on her game.

4.) Not sure what Deke was remembering, but the Farewell album we hear is the last show. It wasn't the highly edited show with pieces and parts from other nights he has said it was. There were edits to the Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In medley because some celebrities didn't want to be featured on the album and maybe that's what he remembered in terms of the amount of hours and work of editing but the things we hear on the album are from the last night and the things we hear Mary saying are what was there that night. The ladies clearly had champagne before the show and were just letting things flow, but nothing comes close to being out of line, unprofessional or inexcusable.