IT'S ALL BEEN SAID BEFORE / Supremes - 1975

[marybrewster]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I have recently acquired a fantastic 1974 Supremes Fan Club Newsletter.

It talks about the completion of SUPREMES 1975, and talks about how Suzanne DeP was pushing for IT'S ALL BEEN SAID BEFORE to be the first single, but the group didn't feel like that was the sound they were going for.

1) Was Suzanne right? I've always felt like IABSB had "smash" written all over it.

2) Was HE'S MY MAN the better choice?

3) Did the Supremes [[ultimately Mary) REALLY have that kind of veto power? I mean, obviously yes, but it's surprising to me that after almost 2 years of no contract or recording, that they finally get a LP together, then start picking and choosing?

Lastly, 1975 was smack in the middle of a 1950's revival; AMERICAN GRAFITTI, SHA NA NA, HAPPY DAYS, and RICHARD NADER'S "REVIVAL" concerts were exploding; would the SHA-LA BANDIT, It's ALL Been Said Before, or The SHOOP SHOOP SONG have been a good fit for a single?

[jobeterob]

To me, it clearly should have been Its All Been Said Before - He’s my Man lacks the hooks that catch the listener -it’s lots of bluster and got some dance play but that didn’t turn into sales. It was such a disappointment

[blackguy69]

I think if it was released in mid 74 it would have worked

[sup_fan]

i think disco wasn't all that mainstream in 75 and so if the goal was to re-introduce the Sups to chart success, something more general in appeal would have been the right choice.

traditional pop music was still a very strong part of the Top 40 in 74 and 75. yes dance and disco tunes were becoming hits but it wasn't until into 76 that you started having one disco song after another topping the charts. and then Sat Night Fever exploded in fall of 77.

i like the Sups doing disco but i think they should have restarted the group in a more pop genre and then move into more dance music

[RanRan79]

I can imagine the group voicing their opinion about the song, but there's no way any of them, Mary included, had veto power over what the label wanted to release. If Motown felt that strongly about it, it would have been the single. Just like if the label thought "He's My Man" didn't have a chance, it would never have been pressed and released as a single.

I wonder too if the fact that it was a cover of a Bobby Hutton song from a year or two before put them off, not wanting to start this next phase of Supremes off with something people may have heard before.

I'm not convinced the song would have done much better than "He's My Man", but it is a great song, single or not. I do think if I were in charge of singles and I had to choose between the two, I probably would have still gone with "He's My Man".

[sup_fan]

by the time the Sups were reforming with Scherrie, things were very different with motown. there wasn't the old Quality Control structure. and i don't think motown was as involved with how acts put together a live show either.

so when we've been discussing "did mary and pedro have the power to change a release?" i think the answer is yes because 1) motown probably didn't care enough to push back too much and 2) there wasn't the QC process control either.

now that doesn't mean there wasn't SOME involvement from motown. as we learned with the Let Yourself Go cd set, there was a first version of the entire High Energy album that was ready to go but then the team was directed to redo things.

although it's a bit silly IMO, i don't deny that HMM is a powerful track. those opening notes just explode through your speakers. it is pretty catchy. and even though motown wasn't super interested in Mary's voice, they couldn't really argue with the fact that she was an anchor of consistency with the group. and according to her book, motown was ok with the idea of her sharing the lead to some degree. she had had a decent hit with FJ and AS.

my bigger surprise isn't that they released HMM but that they didn't push for Scherrie having a bit more prominent of a lead part with it

[telekin]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I have recently acquired a fantastic 1974 Supremes Fan Club Newsletter.

It talks about the completion of SUPREMES 1975, and talks about how Suzanne DeP was pushing for IT'S ALL BEEN SAID BEFORE to be the first single, but the group didn't feel like that was the sound they were going for.

1) Was Suzanne right? I've always felt like IABSB had "smash" written all over it.

2) Was HE'S MY MAN the better choice?

Funny that this thread comes up now as I was kind of thinking about this recently and the past fan discussions around this. As far as whether "It's All Been Said Before" would have been a hit over "He's My Man?" Personally, I've never been convinced. I think it's mostly wishful thinking among fans more than anything else [[nothing wrong with that either! ). That being said, I do think it's a good song and I can see why it would have been a contender. I recall it standing out for me when I first heard it on one of the Diana Ross & The Supremes Anthology collections [[which didn't include HMM) from the 80s. But by the time I got the album, "He's My Man" is the one that really burst through the grooves for me. It's contemporary for the time, it's got a disco edge that places The Supremes exactly at the crossroads of where they needed to be at that time, IMO.

Interesting that it was Suzanne dePasse who was angling for "It's All Been Said.." as a single. My question has long been: did Motown in 1975 have the resources to get behind a pop single like this and take it all the way to the top? A pop single which didn't crossover from R&B or increasingly at the time, Disco first? Because personally, I have my doubts. To me "It's All Been Said Before," while a nice song on it's own, doesn't really have a great deal of R&B or Disco appeal. So if it died on the pop charts, then there would be nowhere else to go with it. "He's My Man" at least seemed to have more across-the-board appeal with Disco and R&B audiences. I can see how perhaps the argument would have been that there was more room to manoeuvre with it, at least potentially.

3) Did the Supremes [[ultimately Mary) REALLY have that kind of veto power? I mean, obviously yes, but it's surprising to me that after almost 2 years of no contract or recording, that they finally get a LP together, then start picking and choosing?

Not sure if Mary would have had veto power per se, but I'm sure her opinions would have been considered. She had talked about how she "lost the battle with Motown" over things like the cover and title of New Ways but Love Stays, for example. So, it seems to me that even if she didn't have the final say, she certainly would have had her opinions taken into consideration, or at least made sure that they were! In this case, it's likely that there would have been others at the corporate level who shared her opinion over Suzanne's.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I agree that It's All Been Said Before should NOT have been the first single release off of 1975. Maybe as a prerelease of the LP in 1974 it may have whetted some curiosity. He's My Man is a stronger song, IABSB just seems to bop around in a very light and frothy manner similar to the Floy Joy LP. I would not have been adverse to HMM being a more shared lead. Mary and Scherrie vocally complimented each other-witness You're What's Missing in My Life. Plus the song is great for vocal interplay with 2 people singing he's my man. Much better song for a duet than Touch which didn't lend itself to the song and probably made people wonder why 2 women were singing to one person about their touch.
I actually would have preferred IABSB as a second single as opposed to Where Do I Go From Here. Never got too into that song. I would have loved Bend a Little on 1975 and had it released as a single. I was still fine with HMM as the first single. All of it set the stage for High Energy.

[sup_fan]

Funny that this thread comes up now as I was kind of thinking about this recently and the past fan discussions around this. As far as whether "It's All Been Said Before" would have been a hit over "He's My Man?" Personally, I've never been convinced. I think it's mostly wishful thinking among fans more than anything else [[nothing wrong with that either! ). That being said, I do think it's a good song and I can see why it would have been a contender. I recall it standing out for me when I first heard it on one of the Diana Ross & The Supremes Anthology collections [[which didn't include HMM) from the 80s. But by the time I got the album, "He's My Man" is the one that really burst through the grooves for me. It's contemporary for the time, it's got a disco edge that places The Supremes exactly at the crossroads of where they needed to be at that time, IMO.

Interesting that it was Suzanne dePasse who was angling for "It's All Been Said.." as a single. My question has long been: did Motown in 1975 have the resources to get behind a pop single like this and take it all the way to the top? A pop single which didn't crossover from R&B or increasingly at the time, Disco first? Because personally, I have my doubts. To me "It's All Been Said Before," while a nice song on it's own, doesn't really have a great deal of R&B or Disco appeal. So if it died on the pop charts, then there would be nowhere else to go with it. "He's My Man" at least seemed to have more across-the-board appeal with Disco and R&B audiences. I can see how perhaps the argument would have been that there was more room to manoeuvre with it, at least potentially.

I'm totally guessing here but trying to maybe piece things together. Mary has said she wanted to be the lead singer in the MSC lineup. motown was not interested in that but were ok with mary taking a somewhat bigger role than just a backing singer provided there was a 3rd girl that could handle the bulk of things. and then given the label's total lack of interest in her as a soloist in 78/79, i think the situation with IABSB was just that motown was never really wanting to focus on mary's voice.

maybe Smokey was sort of an advocate for her? he did do the FJ song and album which included the most mary spotlights up to that point with 2 co-leads and 1 additional full lead. and i think in her book, Mary says she talked with Smokey during this time about being the lead and he was supposedly supportive. I don't know how much smokey would fight for her though.

So maybe the situation was more that motown just sort of naturally looked to a Scherrie tune as the lead single. was a 45 single catalog number assigned to IABSB? this tune and Shoop were both recorded first, in Dec 74. HMM and all of the rest followed in winter and early spring 75. maybe the story is more that 1) motown was thinking they should focus on Scherrie and 2) IABSB was one of the first recordings for the group and showed some definite promise.

[telekin]

I'm totally guessing here but trying to maybe piece things together. Mary has said she wanted to be the lead singer in the MSC lineup. motown was not interested in that but were ok with mary taking a somewhat bigger role than just a backing singer provided there was a 3rd girl that could handle the bulk of things. and then given the label's total lack of interest in her as a soloist in 78/79, i think the situation with IABSB was just that motown was never really wanting to focus on mary's voice.

maybe Smokey was sort of an advocate for her? he did do the FJ song and album which included the most mary spotlights up to that point with 2 co-leads and 1 additional full lead. and i think in her book, Mary says she talked with Smokey during this time about being the lead and he was supposedly supportive. I don't know how much smokey would fight for her though.

So maybe the situation was more that motown just sort of naturally looked to a Scherrie tune as the lead single. was a 45 single catalog number assigned to IABSB? this tune and Shoop were both recorded first, in Dec 74. HMM and all of the rest followed in winter and early spring 75. maybe the story is more that 1) motown was thinking they should focus on Scherrie and 2) IABSB was one of the first recordings for the group and showed some definite promise.

I'm largely speculating too, so I can't speak to whether it was Smokey who was going to bat for Mary at that level. I can say that we, and I'm guilty of this too, often speak about 'Motown' as a monolithic whole and it's perhaps instructive to note that there were probably a lot of differing opinions and debates among those in charge, from Suzanne to Berry, to Quality Control etc.. and other people who were in positions of power. Not to mention other internal political considerations, among writers and producers, within the act and between them and their management etc..

We speculate about Mary vs. Scherrie, but there were probably many other considerations too. Regardless of what they felt about Mary as a lead vocalist, it wasn't enough to prevent them from giving "He's My Man" the green-light. Just looking at the recording dates on the LYG Box set: "It's All Been Said Before" was recorded in December 1974, so perhaps it was emerging as the strongest single contender among the material they'd recorded up to that point, which may also around the time of the fan club newsletter marybrewster mentions. "He's My Man" seems to have been recorded later in March-April 1975, so perhaps by that point, it was then overtaking "It's All Been Said.." as another potential lead single contender.

There were also politics among producers to take into account too. Michael Lloyd who produced IABSB had been known for producing The Osmonds and a brief run on Motown producing for The Boones, a cover of "When The Lovelight Starts Shining Though His Eyes" interestingly enough. But there's little else after 1975. Ivey & Woodford were apparently on the outs with the label by the time the LP was out, so that may have also played a part as to why none of their songs were selected as singles, and arguably their biggest song for the group, "Bend A Little" was left off altogether. Greg Wright from The Devastating Affair was entirely in-house, which often tended to be Motown's preference, and likely eagerly looking to raise his profile as a producer, which likely may have tipped some scales in his favour. "He's My Man" appears to be his first credit as a solo producer. While The Supremes didn't have their pick of the company's top proven writers and producers as they did in 1969-72, I'm sure having a hit on a group like The Supremes would have been a major coup for a young, hungry, up-and-coming producer like Wright.

Again, I don't know this for sure, but for someone like Wright, maybe recording a song as a shared lead might have also been a way to position him and his work well vis-a-vis the other material lined up for their LP.

[TheMotownManiac]

I don’t know if anyone ever heard he’s my man on the radio. I heard it played on KATZ the sound of soul in St. Louis one time. I can’t exactly remember the intro, but the disc jockey did give it some sort of a description by The Supremes. Something new by The Supremes blah blah blah something like that. I was excitedto hear it, but it didn’t sound good on the radio. Mary’s vocal was just very blah sounding…. I don’t know how many times they played it, I don’t know anyone else who heard it, I imagine it didn’t get much of a response. Program directors get stacks of 45s every day. They have meetings with label representatives every day. they are being pushed to play dozens of records every day. They can very few of those weddings. And when a program Director puts on a song by The Supremes who have not been the top 10 for over four years, and they hear mary’s vocal, I can imagine they never played the rest of the record. I’m not knocking Mary’s voice as everyone knows I’m a fan, a very big fan of her gifts… This isn’t one of them. It was a huge mistake to release this vocal. The problem with it all been said before is that so much of the lyrics are indistinguishable , that the record never would’ve had a chance, even if it was on the radio. Listen to every hit record that ever hit, it’s easy to hear and easy to sing. No one‘s going to be driving along in their car listening to the radio and having to put their ear to the speaker. Trying to figure out what’s being said. No one‘s gonna be required to do it because it’s not gonna get added in the first place. I think both of these records could’ve hit top 10 top 20, with a little help from New vocals.

[TheMotownManiac]

Funny that this thread comes up now as I was kind of thinking about this recently and the past fan discussions around this. As far as whether "It's All Been Said Before" would have been a hit over "He's My Man?" Personally, I've never been convinced. I think it's mostly wishful thinking among fans more than anything else [[nothing wrong with that either! ). That being said, I do think it's a good song and I can see why it would have been a contender. I recall it standing out for me when I first heard it on one of the Diana Ross & The Supremes Anthology collections [[which didn't include HMM) from the 80s. But by the time I got the album, "He's My Man" is the one that really burst through the grooves for me. It's contemporary for the time, it's got a disco edge that places The Supremes exactly at the crossroads of where they needed to be at that time, IMO.

Interesting that it was Suzanne dePasse who was angling for "It's All Been Said.." as a single. My question has long been: did Motown in 1975 have the resources to get behind a pop single like this and take it all the way to the top? A pop single which didn't crossover from R&B or increasingly at the time, Disco first? Because personally, I have my doubts. To me "It's All Been Said Before," while a nice song on it's own, doesn't really have a great deal of R&B or Disco appeal. So if it died on the pop charts, then there would be nowhere else to go with it. "He's My Man" at least seemed to have more across-the-board appeal with Disco and R&B audiences. I can see how perhaps the argument would have been that there was more room to manoeuvre with it, at least potentially.



Not sure if Mary would have had veto power per se, but I'm sure her opinions would have been considered. She had talked about how she "lost the battle with Motown" over things like the cover and title of New Ways but Love Stays, for example. So, it seems to me that even if she didn't have the final say, she certainly would have had her opinions taken into consideration, or at least made sure that they were! In this case, it's likely that there would have been others at the corporate level who shared her opinion over Suzanne's.

Motown had the resources, but you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Not only do those tunes need work, but they cannot be performed on TV like he’s my man was. When I consider to be a pretty killer track is ruined, visually by the childish marauding which served for a routine.

[Ollie9]

Motown had the resources, but you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Not only do those tunes need work, but they cannot be performed on TV like he’s my man was. When I consider to be a pretty killer track is ruined, visually by the childish marauding which served for a routine.

I agree regarding the choreography for “He’s My Man” being pretty dreadful. Whoever wasn’t singing lead should have been chained to their microphone stand on more then a few occasions.

[telekin]

I mean if I'm dancing to a song in the disco, I'm not thinking about the choreography I saw on Dinah Shore

[bradsupremes]

I've never heard the hit in "It's All Been Said Before" that so many hear. It's a nice song, but it has never done anything for me. Like previously said, the intro to "He's My Man," grabs you instantly so I can see why Motown thought there was something there, but I think "The Sha-La Bandit," "Color My World Blue," "Give Out But Don't Give Up" were a missed opportunities. To me, those could have charted decently.

If Motown really wanted to throw The Supremes into the disco pool and get something going, they would have released "Bend A Little."

[marybrewster]

One interesting perspective:

When you look at all of the #1 hits of 1975:

Out of 52 weeks, only 17 weeks had a #1 hit that had a female in the group [[groups like Tony Orlando and Dawn and the Captain and Tennille).

Of those 17 weeks, only 4 of those weeks were female only artists:

Linda Ronstadt
Minnie Ripperton
Olivia Newton John
LaBelle
[[All with a #1 hit for 1 week)

Even if the Supremes had something that had "hit record" written all over it, could they have reached #1 in a time that was clearly so male dominated?

Linda, Minnie, and Olivia all hit with "ballads". LaBelle made it with "disco". So "He's My Man" was going to be a contender? I still think "It's All Been Said Before" had the best chance.

[jobeterob]

These were years of a lot of country influence too - Charlie Rich, Crystal Gayle, Olivia

I think there is a mix of IABSB that could have been a hit - but there were clearer mixes that wouldn’t have been a hit.

I would compare it to the following - the 45 of Up The Ladder To The Roof sounded quite echoey and similar to Diana Ross - the album versions were nothing like that and sounded much more Jean like although they had similar voices

So I think there was a chance for it while HMM starts off strong but really goes nowhere and has no hooks

On the other hand, it may have been that the Supremes were fizzling or had fizzled and no amount of anything would be successful

[blackguy69]

Which version didn’t you like since there’s 2 different set of choreography they did.

I agree regarding the choreography for “He’s My Man” being pretty dreadful. Whoever wasn’t singing lead should have been chained to their microphone stand on more than a few occasions.

[Ollie9]

I've never heard the hit in "It's All Been Said Before" that so many hear. It's a nice song, but it has never done anything for me. Like previously said, the intro to "He's My Man," grabs you instantly so I can see why Motown thought there was something there, but I think "The Sha-La Bandit," "Color My World Blue," "Give Out But Don't Give Up" were a missed opportunities. To me, those could have charted decently.

If Motown really wanted to throw The Supremes into the disco pool and get something going, they would have released "Bend A Little."

I agree brad, as i don’t hear anything in “It’s All Been Said Before” that signals a hit. Scherrie’s voice sounds unusually strained and it dosnt really go anywhere.
He’s My Man” was probably their best chance of a hit, but i think it should have been a shared lead with Scherrie to lend a little more oomph.

[Ollie9]

Which version didn’t you like since there’s 2 different set of choreography they did.

There are variations, but for me still to much prancing around on all. Allowing for the time frame, it still comes across as being rather cheesy, and trying just that little bit to hard to please.

[marybrewster]

I agree brad, as i don’t hear anything in “It’s All Been Said Before” that signals a hit. Scherrie’s voice sounds unusually strained and it dosnt really go anywhere.
He’s My Man” was probably their best chance of a hit, but i think it should have been a shared lead with Scherrie to lend a little more oomph.

Or just Scherrie lead, period. The track starts out exciting; the guitars and Scherrie's ad libs and the title in unison. Then smokey old Mary comes in limp and it quickly falls apart.

[blackguy69]

Even a Scherrie led still wouldn’t be a hit

Or just Scherrie lead, period. The track starts out exciting; the guitars and Scherrie's ad libs and the title in unison. Then smokey old Mary comes in limp and it quickly falls apart.

[sup_fan]

I don’t know if anyone ever heard he’s my man on the radio. I heard it played on KATZ the sound of soul in St. Louis one time. I can’t exactly remember the intro, but the disc jockey did give it some sort of a description by The Supremes. Something new by The Supremes blah blah blah something like that. I was excitedto hear it, but it didn’t sound good on the radio. Mary’s vocal was just very blah sounding…. I don’t know how many times they played it, I don’t know anyone else who heard it, I imagine it didn’t get much of a response. Program directors get stacks of 45s every day. They have meetings with label representatives every day. they are being pushed to play dozens of records every day. They can very few of those weddings. And when a program Director puts on a song by The Supremes who have not been the top 10 for over four years, and they hear mary’s vocal, I can imagine they never played the rest of the record. I’m not knocking Mary’s voice as everyone knows I’m a fan, a very big fan of her gifts… This isn’t one of them. It was a huge mistake to release this vocal. The problem with it all been said before is that so much of the lyrics are indistinguishable , that the record never would’ve had a chance, even if it was on the radio. Listen to every hit record that ever hit, it’s easy to hear and easy to sing. No one‘s going to be driving along in their car listening to the radio and having to put their ear to the speaker. Trying to figure out what’s being said. No one‘s gonna be required to do it because it’s not gonna get added in the first place. I think both of these records could’ve hit top 10 top 20, with a little help from New vocals.

completely agree. Mary is a wonderful singer but that doesn't mean she's a perfect fit for every tune. no one can sing everything. with such a heavy, thick backing track, you need a vocal that can sail on top of all that sound and also cut through it all. that's not mary's voice. plain and simple. perhaps if this was a Scherrie lead it would have worked better. i do like the idea of M and C doing some one-liners here and there to add even more group feel.

[RanRan79]

so when we've been discussing "did mary and pedro have the power to change a release?" i think the answer is yes because 1) motown probably didn't care enough to push back too much and 2) there wasn't the QC process control either.

There was no way Motown Records allowed their artists to be in charge of what got released, unless the name on the record was Stevie Wonder, probably Smokey Robinson, maybe Marvin Gaye. Not even Diana had a say so. Motown still had to press the records, distribute them, etc. The power to veto a song falls under creative control and nobody, except the men I previously mentioned, had it. Diana left, in part, because she didn't have it. No way Mary had that luxury.

[RanRan79]

Or just Scherrie lead, period. The track starts out exciting; the guitars and Scherrie's ad libs and the title in unison. Then smokey old Mary comes in limp and it quickly falls apart.

Honestly, I think Mary is just fine. The parts she sing is when the music tones down from the more forceful intro and chorus. I think if the tempo stayed the same from the intro to the end, yeah, Scherrie probably worked best. And even as is, I'm not denying that Scherrie might have worked in it's entirety, but I don't think Mary breaks the record. If anything, that corny chorus is what did the song in, IMO.

[RanRan79]

I think the shared lead "Sha La Bandit" might have been a hit. I definitely think "Can't Stop a Girl In Love" and "Color My World Blue" were the missing hits from the 75 album. Would they have gone number one? I don't know. But I think they had good shots at going top 10.

[Ollie9]

I think the shared lead "Sha La Bandit" might have been a hit. I definitely think "Can't Stop a Girl In Love" and "Color My World Blue" were the missing hits from the 75 album. Would they have gone number one? I don't know. But I think they had good shots at going top 10.

I think top #10 a bit optimistic, top #45 with a fair amount of radio exposure seems much more realistic.
“I’m Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking’ is a much stronger track than anything featured on The Supremes 75 album, yet it still only managed pop #40. To me that’s a fair indication.

[telekin]

This notion that "He's My Man" gets dragged down by Mary's voice has been mentioned a few times and I'm thinking to myself, "really?!" Like, so much so that a programmer would just be turned off the second she comes on, that just seems ridiculous to me.

Like, are people so blinkered by their Supreme allegiances, or has this notion that Mary's voice is uncommercial been just repeated so ad-nauseum among fans [[and we know how that works! See the Motown 25 thread) that people just take it as gospel?

I was relatively new to The Supremes when I first heard this song, and I honestly couldn't tell then who sang what and where. I just knew I loved it, and loved that it seemed to be a shared lead on a pretty dynamite track. I think the energy of Mary and Scherrie are pretty well matched here.

[bradsupremes]

This notion that "He's My Man" gets dragged down by Mary's voice has been mentioned a few times and I'm thinking to myself, "really?!" Like, so much so that a programmer would just be turned off the second she comes on, that just seems ridiculous to me.

Like, are people so blinkered by their Supreme allegiances, or has this notion that Mary's voice is uncommercial been just repeated so ad-nauseum among fans [[and we know how that works! See the Motown 25 thread) that people just take it as gospel?

Yes. Exactly that. I think people's feelings about Mary [[whether you like her or not) has a lot to do with their approach to her voice. Does Mary's voice have a certain quality to her that lent itself better for certain styles than others? Absolutely. But this tired, repeated notion that she couldn't carry an upbeat tune or wasn't commercial enough is a bit ridiculous. Anything is commercial regardless of its tempo and style. I don't think for a second that Mary's voice had anything to do with "He's My Man" not doing well on the charts.

[Ollie9]

When singing pop/r &b, Mary’s voice can lack personality being why there were so many split leads when a Supreme. Closer Together” is a prime example of this where Susaye’s voice adds colour and interest to the song. Mary voice sounds primarily more at home when singing jazz or standards.
I don’t think “He’s My Man” was ever have set the charts alight no matter who was singing lead, but do think Scherrie’s more passionate sounding vocals would have lent the song more interest.

[sup_fan]

while there have been times in the past where fans on here are "blinded" by their loyalty to one girl or another, i don't think that's the case with HMM. absolutely there are people that are right or not right for a tune. different singers have different tones and different capabilities.

had Mary been the lead on Ladder or Stoned Love, the songs would not have worked as well as they did with Jean's voice. does that mean the song would have charted lower? i believe so but of course we'll never really know. I think it would have been very hard to imagine Ladder hitting #10 with Mary on lead

now does this mean mary is the sole reason HMM failed to chart? no of course not. does this mean that simply switching to a Scherrie lead would have resulted in a #1 smash? no of course not. there were a zillion things working against the group in 75.

when comparing potential lead vocals - mary has a more misty smoky tone. from a technical perspective, she generally doesn't weave her vocals in and around an instrumental track. there isn't an agility like scherrie's. That doesn't mean she a bad vocalist or untalented. just a different vocalist. and it doesn't mean only she could only do slow tunes. she's great on Can We Love Again, you're what's missing, and Mr Boogie. none of which are ballads. but also none of which needed this lightness and sprightliness that Scherrie brought to Walking, Love I Never Knew, Where do i go from here and other tunes.

[sup_fan]

When singing pop/r &b, Mary’s voice can lack personality being why there were so many split leads when a Supreme. Closer Together” is a prime example of this where Susaye’s voice adds colour and interest to the song. Mary voice sounds primarily more at home when singing jazz or standards.
I don’t think “He’s My Man” was ever have set the charts alight no matter who was singing lead, but do think Scherrie’s more passionate sounding vocals would have lent the song more interest.

exactly. different voices have different capabilities. the intro of HMM is full-power energy. then verse 1 starts and mary's warm and sensual tone just doesn't really match up with what we just heard. this explosive horn and guitar intro is followed by this misty tone. it needed something bright and high-energy.

i do think within the full length of the song, you could have had M and C take lines and add some variety and group impact to the tune. but hooks and tricks are absolutely what can make or break a tune. something that grabs a listener.

[marybrewster]

while there have been times in the past where fans on here are "blinded" by their loyalty to one girl or another, i don't think that's the case with HMM. absolutely there are people that are right or not right for a tune. different singers have different tones and different capabilities.

had Mary been the lead on Ladder or Stoned Love, the songs would not have worked as well as they did with Jean's voice. does that mean the song would have charted lower? i believe so but of course we'll never really know. I think it would have been very hard to imagine Ladder hitting #10 with Mary on lead

now does this mean mary is the sole reason HMM failed to chart? no of course not. does this mean that simply switching to a Scherrie lead would have resulted in a #1 smash? no of course not. there were a zillion things working against the group in 75.

when comparing potential lead vocals - mary has a more misty smoky tone. from a technical perspective, she generally doesn't weave her vocals in and around an instrumental track. there isn't an agility like scherrie's. That doesn't mean she a bad vocalist or untalented. just a different vocalist. and it doesn't mean only she could only do slow tunes. she's great on Can We Love Again, you're what's missing, and Mr Boogie. none of which are ballads. but also none of which needed this lightness and sprightliness that Scherrie brought to Walking, Love I Never Knew, Where do i go from here and other tunes.

Thank you. I've been in the "Mary Camp" for decades, but I don't put her on a pedestal and I call a spade a spade. Mary sucks on HMM. She's even worse on TOUCH. That's my opinion. It's also my opinion that she's fantastic on FLOY JOY. So the notation that I prefer one over the other based on how much I like Mary is ridiculous. It's more about the content and lyrics over admiration to me.

[telekin]

Does Mary's voice have a certain quality to her that lent itself better for certain styles than others? Absolutely. But this tired, repeated notion that she couldn't carry an upbeat tune or wasn't commercial enough is a bit ridiculous. Anything is commercial regardless of its tempo and style. I don't think for a second that Mary's voice had anything to do with "He's My Man" not doing well on the charts.

Exactly this. I mean, there's also a lot of fan hairsplitting going on here, which is also par for the course on a fan group , naturally. I honestly don't think your average, casual listener would be able to make any of the distinctions we're making here.

I personally love Mary and Scherrie on He's My Man, and the more I listened to it, the more I loved that there were two vocal textures on display here. Speaking "technically," [[not really, but let's just say..) Mary starting off lower and more sensual doesn't take anything away from it to me. On the contrary, it gives the song dynamics. I don't think starting off at full-throttle and staying there would have improved things. It's to the song's benefit that you have Mary starting the song more softly and then Scherrie coming in and taking it to the top, to my ears. One may say that the lyrics are light and even a little silly, but for someone to have said that it's a song that "goes nowhere" is not really paying attention.

[RanRan79]

I think top #10 a bit optimistic, top #45 with a fair amount of radio exposure seems much more realistic.
“I’m Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking’ is a much stronger track than anything featured on The Supremes 75 album, yet it still only managed pop #40. To me that’s a fair indication.

Are we talking about the same 1975 when the Carpenters' corny version of "Postman" hit number one? "Rhinestone Cowboy" anyone? ELO's "Can't Get It Outta My Head" went top 10. So did "No No Song" by Ringo Starr and Dickie Goodman's "Mr. Jaws". "Can't Stop" and "Color" have to be as good or better than those songs.

As far as comparing them to "Walking", two things: 1) Not every great song is going to go all the way, just like some songs that "suck" somehow make it up the charts; and 2) "Walking" had to compete with "Love Hangover" in Motown's promotional department at a time when Motown was dropping the ball on just about everyone every which kind of way. Plus "Hangover" was a helluva song.

[RanRan79]

Exactly this. I mean, there's also a lot of fan hairsplitting going on here, which is also par for the course on a fan group , naturally. I honestly don't think your average, casual listener would be able to make any of the distinctions we're making here.

I personally love Mary and Scherrie on He's My Man, and the more I listened to it, the more I loved that there were two vocal textures on display here. Speaking "technically," [[not really, but let's just say..) Mary starting off lower and more sensual doesn't take anything away from it to me. On the contrary, it gives the song dynamics. I don't think starting off at full-throttle and staying there would have improved things. It's to the song's benefit that you have Mary starting the song more softly and then Scherrie coming in and taking it to the top, to my ears. One may say that the lyrics are light and even a little silly, but for someone to have said that it's a song that "goes nowhere" is not really paying attention.

As well as the song can, I think it works as is and would have worked with just Scherrie. Would it have worked with just Mary? I doubt it, but as I've said before, I wouldn't have guessed Mary could have pulled off "Early Morning Love" and for my taste she did a great job with it, so who knows?

I still think the chorus was corny as heck.

[Ollie9]

Exactly this. I mean, there's also a lot of fan hairsplitting going on here, which is also par for the course on a fan group , naturally. I honestly don't think your average, casual listener would be able to make any of the distinctions we're making here.

I personally love Mary and Scherrie on He's My Man, and the more I listened to it, the more I loved that there were two vocal textures on display here. Speaking "technically," [[not really, but let's just say..) Mary starting off lower and more sensual doesn't take anything away from it to me. On the contrary, it gives the song dynamics. I don't think starting off at full-throttle and staying there would have improved things. It's to the song's benefit that you have Mary starting the song more softly and then Scherrie coming in and taking it to the top, to my ears. One may say that the lyrics are light and even a little silly, but for someone to have said that it's a song that "goes nowhere" is not really paying attention.

I made that comment about going nowhere regarding “It’s All Been Said Before”. My opinion hasn’t changed.
”If “He’s My Man” was so knockout, why did it die a death. It certainly received enough tv promotion both in the USA and UK. Bottom line being it simply wasn’t a strong enough song to become a big hit. At best it remains a pleasant album track with a cheesy chorus.

[blackguy69]

That’s easy no radio play. They can promote any song on tv to death but if it isn’t played on the radio at least once an hour, then it’s dead on arrival

I made that comment about going nowhere regarding “It’s All Been Said Before”. My opinion hasn’t changed.
”If “He’s My Man” was so knockout, why did it die a death. It certainly received enough tv promotion both in the USA and UK. Bottom line being it simply wasn’t a strong enough song to become a big hit. At best it remains a pleasant album track with a cheesy chorus.

[Ollie9]

Are we talking about the same 1975 when the Carpenters' corny version of "Postman" hit number one? "Rhinestone Cowboy" anyone? ELO's "Can't Get It Outta My Head" went top 10. So did "No No Song" by Ringo Starr and Dickie Goodman's "Mr. Jaws". "Can't Stop" and "Color" have to be as good or better than those songs.

As far as comparing them to "Walking", two things: 1) Not every great song is going to go all the way, just like some songs that "suck" somehow make it up the charts; and 2) "Walking" had to compete with "Love Hangover" in Motown's promotional department at a time when Motown was dropping the ball on just about everyone every which kind of way. Plus "Hangover" was a helluva song.

Most of those hits you mention have a catchy chorus. None of the songs you refer to from Supremes 75 album would have anyone humming along to them. Just my opinion.
Perhaps if “He’s My Man” had a different title and lyrics it might have caused a small splash.

[Ollie9]

That’s easy no radio play. They can promote any song on tv to death but if it isn’t played on the radio at least once an hour, then it’s dead on arrival

Certainly not true in The UK where it received a considerable amount of airplay.

[marybrewster]

It appears they performed HMM at least six times on tv:

The Tonight Show: white/yellow/orange ball gowns

Soul Train: lavender and silver fringe pantsuits

Dinah!: street clothes

Dinah!: lavender tops with black pants

Russell Harry Show: black/brown/purple silk gowns with matching hats

Sammy Davis Show: same outfits as above

That's a LOT of exposure. And it still couldn't crack the Billboard Hot 100.

[Ollie9]

It appears they performed HMM at least six times on tv:

The Tonight Show: white/yellow/orange ball gowns

Soul Train: lavender and silver fringe pantsuits

Dinah!: street clothes

Dinah!: lavender tops with black pants

Russell Harry Show: black/brown/purple silk gowns with matching hats

Sammy Davis Show: same outfits as above

That's a LOT of exposure. And it still couldn't crack the Billboard Hot 100.

I must agree.

[daviddh]

When I first got this album, it's all been said and color my world blue was stand outs to me..
I would have released it instead of HMM.
Also can't believe Bend. A Little and Can We Love Again were left off
Somebody was sleeping

[blackguy69]

Not the same in the US

Certainly not true in The UK where it received a considerable amount of airplay.

[blackguy69]

Tv is one thing, you have to catch them when they’re on. Radio is a different story.

remember I’m Gonna Make You Love Me was never performed on TV but was in regular rotation on the radio

It appears they performed HMM at least six times on tv:

The Tonight Show: white/yellow/orange ball gowns

Soul Train: lavender and silver fringe pantsuits

Dinah!: street clothes

Dinah!: lavender tops with black pants

Russell Harry Show: black/brown/purple silk gowns with matching hats

Sammy Davis Show: same outfits as above

That's a LOT of exposure. And it still couldn't crack the Billboard Hot 100.

[Ollie9]

Tv is one thing, you have to catch them when they’re on. Radio is a different story.

remember I’m Gonna Make You Love Me was never performed on TV but was in regular rotation on the radio

That’s still a sizeable amount of prime time promotion. Look what happened with “Missing You” when Diana performed it at the American Music Awards. The power of tv.
I seriously doubt it, but do you think it would have become a sizeable hit with more airplay?. It certainly would have proved a boost for Mary.

[blackguy69]

But missing you was in Regular rotation on the radio and the video was also in rotation on NTV and BET. If He’s my man had a decent amount of radio airplay, who knows

That’s still a sizeable amount of prime time promotion. Look what happened with “Missing You” when Diana performed it at the American Music Awards. The power of tv.
I seriously doubt it, but do you think it would have become a sizeable hit with more airplay?. It certainly would have proved a boost for Mary.

[Boogiedown]

Most of those hits you mention have a catchy chorus. None of the songs you refer to from Supremes 75 album would have anyone humming along to them. Just my opinion.
Perhaps if “He’s My Man” had a different title and lyrics it might have caused a small splash.

How about "A MAN AIN'T A PLAN"

[Ollie9]

How about "A MAN AIN'T A PLAN"

The song pushed the Women’s Liberation Movement back twenty years.

[RanRan79]

Most of those hits you mention have a catchy chorus. None of the songs you refer to from Supremes 75 album would have anyone humming along to them. Just my opinion.
Perhaps if “He’s My Man” had a different title and lyrics it might have caused a small splash.

I think "Can't Stop A Girl In Love" has a catchy chorus, though a catchy chorus does not always a hit make...or vice versa.