Were there no Supremes, would DR Still Have Found Her Way Into The Motown Fold?

[Boogiedown]

Without the group of girls showing up and repeatedly pestering their way in .... would Diana Ross have done as well without them??

Was her destiny to be with Motown no matter what??

[BobbyC]

I think she'd have followed her father's insistence that she go to college and get a "real job." I always got the feeling Mary and Florence took singing more seriously than DR at first, but when things started happening DR put all her focus on being in the group. It's obvious that Berry replaced Mr Ross as a father figure for a time.

[Boogiedown]

I think she'd have followed her father's insistence that she go to college and get a "real job." I always got the feeling Mary and Florence took singing more seriously than DR at first, but when things started happening DR put all her focus on being in the group. It's obvious that Berry replaced Mr Ross as a father figure for a time.

Interesting. Which amongst them do you think corralled them all into continually going to Motown? Who had the most urge? Who had to be convinced? Did they [all four] always go together?

[& how often was this occurring?]

[BobbyC]

I don't know! I'm just saying that after reading all the books and social media on the girls, it just seemed to me that DR would have been stellar at anything she did, and could have easily been successful as a lawyer or something like that. A more traditional path. to me, it seemed like Mary and Florence saw singing as one of few options. I could be wrong, but I think Berry directed DR's energy down the singing route because he knew she could be successful in a way most of her peers never could, be more of an entertainer.

[marybrewster]

I'm sure SOMEONE will correct me, but wasn't Flo responsible for bringing Mary into the fold, then in turn, Mary bringing Diana?

So would there have been any "pestering their way in" if Flo hadn't initiated the formation?

That said:

Diana's destiny was to be a success. Whether it was a secretary, a fashion designer, or a doctor like her sister Barbara Ross-Lee. Hearing how competitive Diana was/is, she probably would have been whatever is one step up from a doctor, lol.

Generally speaking, didn't all the Rosses have some sort of successes? Barbara a doctor, Rita a politician, Arthur a songwriter, Chico a nightclub owner, and Fred Jr.?

[RanRan79]

I think she'd have followed her father's insistence that she go to college and get a "real job." I always got the feeling Mary and Florence took singing more seriously than DR at first, but when things started happening DR put all her focus on being in the group. It's obvious that Berry replaced Mr Ross as a father figure for a time.

Based on everything I've read, including the recollections of the ladies themselves, I would say they all kept each other going. I can't remember which one said it, but at some point they each became a bit disillusioned, which of course is only natural for young people who are actually going after their dream, as opposed to just dreaming. At that age patience can be hard to come by. But ultimately I think they all were full steam ahead. Diana was focused from day one, same as Flo, same as Mary. I think that was probably one of the most important components of their success; they each wanted it so badly.

[RanRan79]

I'm sure SOMEONE will correct me, but wasn't Flo responsible for bringing Mary into the fold, then in turn, Mary bringing Diana?

So would there have been any "pestering their way in" if Flo hadn't initiated the formation?

That said:

Diana's destiny was to be a success. Whether it was a secretary, a fashion designer, or a doctor like her sister Barbara Ross-Lee. Hearing how competitive Diana was/is, she probably would have been whatever is one step up from a doctor, lol.

Generally speaking, didn't all the Rosses have some sort of successes? Barbara a doctor, Rita a politician, Arthur a songwriter, Chico a nightclub owner, and Fred Jr.?

The story of their origins is told so many times, so many different ways. I think the "facts" are that Flo brought Mary in, and Paul Williams brought Diana in. I seem to recall Florence once saying that she talked to Diana about joining the group, so it's possible that Paul told Flo about Diana.

[RanRan79]

I'm guessing that Diana did not have the skills to be a soloist early on. Yes, she was blessed with a singing voice, but it was at times on the "strange" side, which probably lent itself well to a group scenario, but might have been less attractive on its own. With singing groups being the way in for a lot of young people at the time, it's likely she may not have pursued a career as a singer on her own. And without those valuable years from 1959-1964 where she is honing her skills as a vocalist within the Supremes, she may never have developed into the quality talent that she ultimately became.

Now, had Flo and Mary grown so disillusioned by the lack of success for the group that they both dropped out prior to "Where Did Our Love Go", I think Diana would have forged on as a solo. And while she still would not have yet had all the things that eventually made her a worldwide sensation [[as a solo), I think she had enough of the "it" factor to continue as a solo from "Where" on forward.

[captainjames]

I believe Flo brought Mary in and Paul Williams brought Diana in and I can't remember who brought Betty in but in one story it was said that Betty was already there when they met up. It was by fate that they were brought together as a group considering all the singers in Detroit at this time. At any rate when Betty and Barbara dropped it I believe at that point Diana said something to the fact that if they could not make it as a trio that she would try it as a solo. However, they feed off of each other as a group I believe and enjoyed singing together.

[reese]

I believe Flo brought Mary in and Paul Williams brought Diana in and I can't remember who brought Betty in but in one story it was said that Betty was already there when they met up. It was by fate that they were brought together as a group considering all the singers in Detroit at this time. At any rate when Betty and Barbara dropped it I believe at that point Diana said something to the fact that if they could not make it as a trio that she would try it as a solo. However, they feed off of each other as a group I believe and enjoyed singing together.

Betty was Paul Williams' girlfriend.

[captainjames]

Ok thank you I could not remember how Betty got there but obviously one could say she was there first. It just really does not matter to me. They were brought together and became friends and slowly drifted into different directions but constantly reaching for that one goal. In my opinion and in my opinion only that goal was get me the hell out of the Brewster Projects.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

I tend to think that without the Supremes there would have been no Diana Ross.

She didn't have the voice to get a solo contract with anyone. It was only due to the Supremes and their success that she got the attention to become a solo star.

[Ollie9]

I tend to think that without the Supremes there would have been no Diana Ross.

She didn't have the voice to get a solo contract with anyone. It was only due to the Supremes and their success that she got the attention to become a solo star.

I tend to agree. In the beginning she needed the vocal support of a group setting, particularly in concert. The timing was perfect for her eventual departure.
I guess if “Someday” had been her first single, it would have remained a permanent fixture for many years to come.

[sup_fan]

according to the legend, Berry noticed Diana in 1959/60 when they first auditioned for the label. even though he still rejected them. now some of that could be mixed up due to revisionism in light of what eventually happened and the phenomenal success of the group in later years. makes a wonderfully endearing intro to the whole saga. I believe it was when the group returned for the second audition that the supposed story of Berry telling her she sings through her nose occurred. but who knows exact timing

Diana had a deep-seated primal need to be in a spotlight. and not saying that to try and be mean. i think it's a cornerstone of who she is. if it wasn't singing in a massive pop group, it would have been probably something else. it could have been that she would have follow fashion and then took herself to NYC and maybe to Paris. to be a star in that industry.

as for singing, when she first started i think it would have been a challenge to package her up as a solo artist like Berry was initially looking for. partly because of her weird voice but also because she was TOO innocent in sound, look and style. mary wells had a more adult air to her even though she was only a year or so older. diana would have just looked like someone dropped their kid off for amateur night at the club, even if she performed well.

the time the girls hit motown was when the Girl Group sensation was exploding and people were finally recognizing the need and market for female groups and singers. so that helped get them going. and as we certainly know, the Sups even in their early days were more sophisticated than most of the other groups.

[bradsupremes]

Diana needed the Supremes to develop her craft. As others have discussed, there's no way she would have been a soloist right off the bat and been successful. If she was really determined, I'm sure she could have found herself somewhere when her voice matured a bit, but again she needed constant experience like she had in the Supremes to develop.

For all the folks who put down Mary and Flo's voices as not being suited for lead, if they had gotten the experience Diana got, I'm positive they would have had equally strong voices. Mary is a great example in the mid-late 70s when she took over more of the leads. Mary's voice in 1976 compared to 1968 is night and day.

[BayouMotownMan]

I feel certain, and Diana said this in an interview many years ago, that had there been no Supremes she would have gone into textiles and clothes design. Remember she chose and designed all the clothes in Mahogany. I think she enjoyed singing but never gave it a serious consideration until the Primettes started appearing locally in small amateurish venues. She loved the applause. This would have been when the show biz bug bit her.

As far as getting into the group, Mary was the second to join, then Betty. Eddie Kendricks recommended Diane Ross. Upon meeting her, Mary and Betty were less than impressed with her personality or her nasal singing. What interested Flo was, again, Diana's talent for design and Flo reasoned that Diane could make their stage attire which she did. Ironically, it was Florence who lobbied for Diana Ross to join her group.

[sup_fan]

we are overlooking one very important and key element of diana ross - her innate ability to interpret lyrics and a song.

none of the girls had any formal vocal training outside of simply singing in their high school and/or church choirs. none had any lessons, vocal or breathing skills, theory, etc. In addition, youth are typically less adept at interpreting lyrics because of their age and inexperience. they don't have a life of events and things to draw on, to act upon.

if you listen to F and M in their early songs, they sing them well but they do sing them as teenagers. fairly straightforward. not really digging into the content and substance. and no one could really have expected them to. But then listen to Flo on Good News. she's only a year or two older [[and as brad mentioned had had very little additional training or work in the studio as a solo/lead) but man! she dug into the meat of that song and is fabulous. age can certainly help. and who knows what else inspired her

Diana, while nowhere near perfect in her earliest songs, was displaying an ability of lyrism far advanced for a 16 or 17 year old. and yes, she grew and developed this even more over the years. But this is talent. not training.

[Boogiedown]

I was under the impression that they were star struck teenagers that kept hanging around the Motown headquarters.
But there was more to them than that. They were performing locally and getting stage practice I guess entirely of their own doing.

[sup_fan]

I was under the impression that they were star struck teenagers that kept hanging around the Motown headquarters.
But there was more to them than that. They were performing locally and getting stage practice I guess entirely of their own doing.

exactly. for DMF, they seemed to have been bit by the bug pretty early.

my impressions of Betty and Barbara was this was never anywhere near that level of a personal interest. to them, it was more of a hobby. which is why they were both totally fine with exiting.

i do wonder with Flo a bit. her personal issues of course color all of this. was singing and being an entertainer REALLY what was going to bring her happiness? or was she someone that might have been better served in a more "normal" life and then being very active in her church choir or some more local musical outlet?

[BayouMotownMan]

That part of their history happened almost 2 years after they formed

[RanRan79]

i do wonder with Flo a bit. her personal issues of course color all of this. was singing and being an entertainer REALLY what was going to bring her happiness? or was she someone that might have been better served in a more "normal" life and then being very active in her church choir or some more local musical outlet?

I don't think there should be any question that entertaining made Flo happy. She was as dedicated to her craft as Diana and Mary. Only when she became disillusioned with the way Gordy was running things did she lose her focus. As with any job, it's not the craft that is the problem, it's often the boss or the co-workers. By all accounts Flo loved entertaining from an early age and as someone said, she saw singing as her way to success, which is the same thing Diana and Mary felt.

[midnightman]

My take may be a bit controversial but I feel had she not joined the Primettes, she would've pursued her dreams of being a fashion designer and model and not a singer. There really was no path to be a solo female superstar, especially one coming from the Midwest [[even Mary Wells joined several groups - mostly co-ed groups with male members, until she went solo via that impromptu audition for Motown with Berry). Diana was a skinny, rail thin, dark brown-skinned girl too. She had the ruthless ambition but who knows how far she would've gotten had she went the solo route like a Bettye LaVette did.

She almost didn't even wanna audition for the Primettes because of how she flunked her music courses but Paul Williams' conviction changed her life's destination. Once she joined the Primettes, the fate was definitely in there for her to be a SUPERSTAR but she knew the path to get there would have to be through a group first.

[midnightman]

I feel certain, and Diana said this in an interview many years ago, that had there been no Supremes she would have gone into textiles and clothes design. Remember she chose and designed all the clothes in Mahogany. I think she enjoyed singing but never gave it a serious consideration until the Primettes started appearing locally in small amateurish venues. She loved the applause. This would have been when the show biz bug bit her.

As far as getting into the group, Mary was the second to join, then Betty. Eddie Kendricks recommended Diane Ross. Upon meeting her, Mary and Betty were less than impressed with her personality or her nasal singing. What interested Flo was, again, Diana's talent for design and Flo reasoned that Diane could make their stage attire which she did. Ironically, it was Florence who lobbied for Diana Ross to join her group.

First time I heard of this but it wouldn't surprise me. Flo was a true team player. I think Diana was probably more intimidated by Mary and Betty but Flo was one of those who saw something in you and said "she ain't bad, let her in". Even though Mary and Diana ended up being the closest. I think after a while DMF forged a bond, albeit one that was bumpy to begin with, that led to them to chase their goals.

[midnightman]

I tend to think that without the Supremes there would have been no Diana Ross.

She didn't have the voice to get a solo contract with anyone. It was only due to the Supremes and their success that she got the attention to become a solo star.

Diana, Mary and Flo needed each other IMHO. They made the Supremes a household name. Whatever happened after that [[that was great) was just the icing on the cake.