The Making Of Motown 25

[jobeterob]

[daviddh]

i wanted more details. it didnt explain why Diana didnt want to go onstage.
they danced around her.
but overall, it was a good look back. would like more rehearsal footage

[Ollie9]

An interesting documentary, but agree in not enough details regarding Diana’s behaviour on the night.
i would like to have known if her not wanting to appear on stage occurred on the actual night or in talks prior to appearing.
If nothing else, it certainly proves there were real concerns as to what her behaviour might be that evening. All with good reason as it turned out.

[captainjames]

My thoughts have always been that she just didn't want to be there. Its been a while but if I remember right there was no rehearsal for the girls. Diana was one of the hold outs along with Michael and Marvin I believe. Also, my opinion "Someday" was one of those songs she just never sung after January 1970.

[Levi Stubbs Tears]

Doco was interesting but - like the actual show - promised more than it delivered.

Highlights were the Tops/Tempts medley & the Jacksons reunion. Diana really spoiled it from being an all-time great.

[jobeterob]

This reminded me that when Smokey came out, I went “why the hell is he coming out?” But I guess in retrospect Diana had gone way off script and Mary was a pro at the mic game by then - so I guess Suzanne wanted it like that and she seems to think it ended so well. I recall she said she would never work with Mary again and didn’t.

Who would have thought this would be the only reunion where they actually sang together even if only for 15 seconds.

I love how they loved the Adam Ant segment with Diana but some real fans didn’t - like the Mary crowd.

For once, I think the casual fans agreed with the super fans that this was a very modest reunion.

[Ollie9]

This reminded me that when Smokey came out, I went “why the hell is he coming out?” But I guess in retrospect Diana had gone way off script and Mary was a pro at the mic game by then - so I guess Suzanne wanted it like that and she seems to think it ended so well. I recall she said she would never work with Mary again and didn’t.

Who would have thought this would be the only reunion where they actually sang together even if only for 15 seconds.

I love how they loved the Adam Ant segment with Diana but some real fans didn’t - like the Mary crowd.

For once, I think the casual fans agreed with the super fans that this was a very modest reunion.

I’m not quite getting the vibe that Suzanne herself really loved Diana’s antics during Adam Ants performance, while seriously doubting she loved Smokey having to be shunted on stage to prevent a cat fight. What she did love was everyone being on stage at the same time.
As has been pointed out many a time, at least Mary didn’t commit the unforgivable in manhandling another performer that evening. That’s as bad as it gets.
All water under the bridge now of course.

[Roberta75]

I’m not quite getting the vibe that Suzanne herself really loved Diana’s antics during Adam Ants performance, while seriously doubting she loved Smokey having to be shunted on stage to prevent a cat fight. What she did love was everyone being on stage at the same time.
As has been pointed out many a time, at least Mary didn’t commit the unforgivable in manhandling another performer that evening. That’s as bad as it gets.
All water under the bridge now of course.

Until six months or a year from now when Motown 25 gets hauled out and regurgitated again for the 197th time. LOL

[RanRan79]

I’m not quite getting the vibe that Suzanne herself really loved Diana’s antics during Adam Ants performance, while seriously doubting she loved Smokey having to be shunted on stage to prevent a cat fight. What she did love was everyone being on stage at the same time.
As has been pointed out many a time, at least Mary didn’t commit the unforgivable in manhandling another performer that evening. That’s as bad as it gets.
All water under the bridge now of course.

In hindsight, Suzanne messed the reunion up. Don't get me wrong, Diana's antics get the bulk of the blame, as she should. However, while we have yet to have access to the uncut footage, the timeline appears to be the ladies moving in close to sing, Diana eventually steps forward, Mary and Cindy follow, then we see Diana introduce Cindy and Mary while Mary sings the lead, Smokey comes out.

Now somewhere between Mary and Cindy moving forward with Diana and then Diana introducing them, the shove happens. My opinion is that Suzanne shouldn't have panicked. Clearly there wasn't going to be a Detroit style throw down on the stage. Despite Diana's shove- and let's be real it probably wasn't hard enough to barely move Mary at all- both she and Mary had to be more professional than to throw their mics down and square up...at least in front of an auditorium full of people. The reunion should have been allowed to proceed without further interruption.

But I guess Suzanne didn't want to take a chance.

[RanRan79]

Until six months or a year from now when Motown 25 gets hauled out and regurgitated again for the 197th time. LOL

I suspect it'll be sooner than that. And hey, why not? Might as well go for the 200th mark.

[Roberta75]

I suspect it'll be sooner than that. And hey, why not? Might as well go for the 200th mark.

LOLOLOLOL True that.

[sup_fan]

i've never seen the edited footage, nor was i present in the auditorium that evening. IMO there was plenty of blame for an array of people

there have been different accounts of the physical altercation between M and D. according to Mary, Diana used enough force to qualify for an Ultimate Fighting Champion. according to Suzanne and Randy, it was more like a "hey - you're supposed to be over here." i don't disagree that physical contact between performers onstage is an absolute no no. and same with the wrist grabbing/mic/it's been taken care of situation that came a little later. So Diana is definitely in the wrong here

suzanne should have been more prepared - why wasn't the medley provided to the women prior? cutting it was just the wrong decision. they cite the lateness of the hour but i seriously doubt many of the other acts had hours and hours of rehearsal. why didn't they just use the Greatest Hits medley that Diana had been using in her own shows. at least that arrangement would have been familiar to her, the charts would have been ready, M and C really don't have all that difficult of material to work with so i would think they'd be able to either pick it up quickly or just fudge it. also the dismissive way she seems to have treated M and C - shame on her!

Mary - she displayed an amazing amount of unprofessionalism this evening. if she was so upset about the cutting of the medley, why didn't she speak up? why would she plan these secretive ideas of singing super low in sound check and purposely ignoring the planned choreography and where her marks were? and even if she "picked up" the lead when Diana seemed lost, hand it back or share it. mary had done more than enough tv and live performances to know how to handle when something goes wrong. or did she just take hold of the lead and sing it herself in order to grandstand and make a scene for herself on national tv? whatever the reason, mary was a far more gifted and talented performer to let her personal feelings influence her behavior that night. she would late remark how Diana had tarnished the Sups reputation of being all smiles and sequins but mary certainly did nothing that evening to bolster the group's historic legacy.

C - apparently this woman is really unable to think for herself. Cindy had to be aware of the tension between D and M. C was always the consummate professional so why would she agree to go along with mary's inappropriate antics? she should have risen above all of this

[jobeterob]

In hindsight, Suzanne messed the reunion up. Don't get me wrong, Diana's antics get the bulk of the blame, as she should. However, while we have yet to have access to the uncut footage, the timeline appears to be the ladies moving in close to sing, Diana eventually steps forward, Mary and Cindy follow, then we see Diana introduce Cindy and Mary while Mary sings the lead, Smokey comes out.

Now somewhere between Mary and Cindy moving forward with Diana and then Diana introducing them, the shove happens. My opinion is that Suzanne shouldn't have panicked. Clearly there wasn't going to be a Detroit style throw down on the stage. Despite Diana's shove- and let's be real it probably wasn't hard enough to barely move Mary at all- both she and Mary had to be more professional than to throw their mics down and square up...at least in front of an auditorium full of people. The reunion should have been allowed to proceed without further interruption.

But I guess Suzanne didn't want to take a chance.

I think you’ve got the time line wrong.

Whatever happened between the two was way later when the group was on the stage.

Has this documentary been around a while? It seemed to have only been posted a couple weeks ago.

[reese]

I think you’ve got the time line wrong.

Whatever happened between the two was way later when the group was on the stage.

Has this documentary been around a while? It seemed to have only been posted a couple weeks ago.

If I'm not mistaken, this documentary is one of the extras made for the MOTOWN 25 dvd.

[gman]

I thought Diana's dance during Adam's performance was not to be missed...I loved it...

It's been said she was having throat problems...that her tongue is bright red from sucking cherry cough drops was mentioned...The problem concerning dropping the medley should have been something that Suzanne nipped in the bud. Could she get DR to reconsider explaining the importance of the reunion, being the labels flagship and most successful act?...Mary needed the exposure...and Cindy was loved and needed to do something performance wise in the publics eye....Mary did attempt to hand the lead back to DR...after she sang "I long for you" and she put her hand out...like here, take it...

I think there were too many complicated emotions going on in DR's head and heart concerning leaving the company, and her business relationship with BG for her to be comfortable...and some questioned her sobriety...I can understand her needing to "loosen up" considering the emotions that evening.....personal involvement aside, the bigger issue was HE MADE HER A SUPERSTAR...and she left...Having to...she smartly wanted to secure her financial future...had BG come up with the $ she would have never left Motown...

[sup_fan]

I thought Diana's dance during Adam's performance was not to be missed...I loved it...

It's been said she was having throat problems...that her tongue is bright red from sucking cherry cough drops was mentioned...The problem concerning dropping the medley should have been something that Suzanne nipped in the bud. Could she get DR to reconsider explaining the importance of the reunion, being the labels flagship and most successful act?...Mary needed the exposure...and Cindy was loved and needed to do something performance wise in the publics eye....Mary did attempt to hand the lead back to DR...after she sang "I long for you" and she put her hand out...like here, take it...

I think there were too many complicated emotions going on in DR's head and heart concerning leaving the company, and her business relationship with BG for her to be comfortable...and some questioned her sobriety...I can understand her needing to "loosen up" considering the emotions that evening.....personal involvement aside, the bigger issue was HE MADE HER A SUPERSTAR...and she left...Having to...she smartly wanted to secure her financial future...had BG come up with the $ she would have never left Motown...

no discredit to Berry for making the girls into superstars. but let's not forget the girls made him super wealthy too. there's always an emphasis on what he did for them and he did a lot. but let's not forget what the girls did for him and motown!

Diana, Mary and Flo had talent and superstar "it" that berry honed but didn't create. it was already there. and they most certainly put in the time and work too

[Ollie9]

Diana was certainly wild eyed that evening, like a cornered tigress.
It really is a shame she couldn’t have just relaxed and accepted the event for the loving reunion it was meant to be. The Supremes blink and you’ve missed it reunion was a mockery to all the group had stood for and achieved.
With the sacking of her staff and kicking sound monitors off stage, she seemed at her most egotistical around this period.

[RanRan79]

Lets be real: Mary knew from two decades of experience that whatever she wanted or felt or had an opinion about meant nothing to Motown. So Mary voicing her objections were going to fall on deaf ears. Mary was hellbent on making sure that the Supremes reunion was not going to turn out like a DRATS repeat. No one behind the scenes was invested in Mary Wilson or her feelings. Diana Ross was a global superstar. What she wanted, felt, etc was going to get the attention.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: why exactly was it necessary for Diana- during a reunion of her groupmates- to stand in front of them? When they moved in close together, that's how the reunion should have gone forth. The only reason for Diana to move ahead was to once again convince everybody that she is the important piece of the puzzle and the other two are just there for decoration.

Listening to the audio, Mary and Cindy come across very well. They aren't louder than Diana nor is it a glaring contrast, like it was during the Supremes' appearance on Sammy Davis where the background mics were as loud or louder than the lead mic. I think being able to actually hear Mary and Cindy turned out to be an advantage, not a disadvantage.

We often talk about the sexist attitude toward Diana because she had certain standards, a way to do things, her way, taking control, as it relates to her shows and appearances and how she's often unfairly maligned because of it. Shouldn't Mary have had the same choices? Shouldn't she want to be heard when singing and then doing what she felt she needed to do to achieve this, knowing no one was going to help her? I think so.

Mary going off script with her speech was unprofessional. Mary calling out to Berry to come on down when that wasn't what she was tasked to do, was unprofessional. Diana shoving-hitting-pushing- or whatever she did in physically responding to not being allowed to be the center of attention and also going out during someone else's performance is much, much worst. If Mary going off mark made blood boil, Diana appearing where she wasn't supposed to during someone else's performance must make heads explode.

[RanRan79]

I think you’ve got the time line wrong.

Whatever happened between the two was way later when the group was on the stage.

Has this documentary been around a while? It seemed to have only been posted a couple weeks ago.

Nope, my timeline is about right. Perhaps you're thinking of the second incident where Diana pushed Mary's mic down. That was when everybody was on the stage, at the end. The shove happened when it was just the three Supremes on stage, hence why Smokey was sent out.

[RanRan79]

no discredit to Berry for making the girls into superstars. but let's not forget the girls made him super wealthy too. there's always an emphasis on what he did for them and he did a lot. but let's not forget what the girls did for him and motown!

Diana, Mary and Flo had talent and superstar "it" that berry honed but didn't create. it was already there. and they most certainly put in the time and work too

Agreed. Berry did a lot to make them a household name, but he never could have done that if the group hadn't already had that thing that made them special. Remember, the girls had almost two years worth of amateur experience when Berry finally signed them. And the ladies continued to put in the work. It wasn't Gordy on those stages and tv shows and in the studio recording song after song.

My question is always 1) Could Berry have found another group of girls to do what the Supremes did, 2) Could the Supremes have been noticed by other record execs who would have a vision that turned them into what they were? My guess is Gordy never would have found another group of Supremes, but I suspect the Supremes could have been noticed and guided far under someone else. Thankfully, either way, we'll never know, as I like the Supremes' story just like it is.

[RanRan79]

Diana was certainly wild eyed that evening, like a cornered tigress.
It really is a shame she couldn’t have just relaxed and accepted the event for the loving reunion it was meant to be. The Supremes blink and you’ve missed it reunion was a mockery to all the group had stood for and achieved.
With the sacking of her staff and kicking sound monitors off stage, she seemed at her most egotistical around this period.

I can believe she was apprehensive about the whole thing, since she and Berry weren't on good terms. The fact that she wanted to say something nice about the whole thing, on stage, in front of Berry, tells me that ultimately she was glad to be able to do something that might smooth things over.

I think the biggest problem she had was reuniting with Mary and Cindy, emphasis on Mary. Not that I think she had any real issues with either one of them, but they represented, again, especially Mary, things she would rather forget. I imagine standing onstage with Mary again, she might feel more like DianE Ross, when she would always prefer to be DIANA Ross. Even the culling of the medley down to one song probably had more to do with Diana not wanting to be a Supreme for too long rather than her being too sick. After all, she looks like she's having a ball when she cuts into Adam Ant's performance. Even her sickness, I now wonder if she made her self sick with apprehension about the event as opposed to really having a bug.

[bradsupremes]

This part of the story has always been unclear and it's never been written/discussed other than Suzanne explaining in the Making Of video.

Motown 25 gets sold to NBC, Suzanne starts lining up artists to appear and perform. Mary writes in her book she was approached to be part of the special and how she wanted a solo spot [[which they says yes to, but then cut - assuming they said yes so she would be onboard) and then a reunion of what would be her, Cindy, and Scherrie. Suzanne states that five days before the taping, Diana agrees to show up but will not step one foot on the stage.

What happened in those five days where Diana agreed to show up but not perform to not only performing but reuniting with Mary and Cindy? Did she even speak to Mary and Cindy beforehand about this? Was this thrown together so fast in those five days that they literally only had that rehearsal before the doors open? It may explain why the medley was cut given how quickly this was thrown together. But also I wonder why the old hits medley wasn't pulled - I doubt they would have forgotten their parts.

[Ollie9]

I can believe she was apprehensive about the whole thing, since she and Berry weren't on good terms. The fact that she wanted to say something nice about the whole thing, on stage, in front of Berry, tells me that ultimately she was glad to be able to do something that might smooth things over.

I think the biggest problem she had was reuniting with Mary and Cindy, emphasis on Mary. Not that I think she had any real issues with either one of them, but they represented, again, especially Mary, things she would rather forget. I imagine standing onstage with Mary again, she might feel more like DianE Ross, when she would always prefer to be DIANA Ross. Even the culling of the medley down to one song probably had more to do with Diana not wanting to be a Supreme for too long rather than her being too sick. After all, she looks like she's having a ball when she cuts into Adam Ant's performance. Even her sickness, I now wonder if she made her self sick with apprehension about the event as opposed to really having a bug.

Some good points that i agree with. [[Shock horror). She was still establishing a new sound and image at that point in time. I think the last thing she wanted was to be seen as a Supreme, while realising that cold shouldering the event would be construed as a snub from a haughty diva by disgruntled fans and media alike.

[Starguard4]

she looks like she's having a ball when she cuts into Adam Ant's performance

Yes, but what could've made it even better? ...
a handy bucket of water, of course - but she'd probably have electrocuted him as well LOL. For me Adam Ant was the absolute low point of the whole show, totally unnecessary, and should've been completely cut out.

[daviddh]

i assume ,since she recently left motown , she may have felt awkward in regards to returning.
i dont understand her positioning of the Supremes when she , stated the Supremes were the favorite era of her career ...on Graham Norton show.
i thought , at this time she and Mary were on good terms
Diana had just appeared at Marys solo show and rocked Turkessa to sleep. what changed in three years?
if she still was upset about something ,why did she show up at both Mary and Cindys solo events?
so here we have the ladies together and all we get is a chorus. of course its editted down to the last verse.
personally ,if i were either , i would have never let it go as is and would have demanded to redo the segment. but then again , it took her 3 times for her to show up for her solo. what was happening there. she shows up and doesnt appear.
that s kind of strange. not the normal for her. as she is normaly on time .
i ll chaulk it up to ego and her being under the weather. all the shows i've been to , she always starts her shows on time.

[jobeterob]

Yes, but what could've made it even better? ...
a handy bucket of water, of course - but she'd probably have electrocuted him as well LOL. For me Adam Ant was the absolute low point of the whole show, totally unnecessary, and should've been completely cut out.

If you watch this video Adam and the producers think this was a high point along with the gathering at the finale. Very differing viewpoints.

[jobeterob]

This part of the story has always been unclear and it's never been written/discussed other than Suzanne explaining in the Making Of video.

Motown 25 gets sold to NBC, Suzanne starts lining up artists to appear and perform. Mary writes in her book she was approached to be part of the special and how she wanted a solo spot [[which they says yes to, but then cut - assuming they said yes so she would be onboard) and then a reunion of what would be her, Cindy, and Scherrie. Suzanne states that five days before the taping, Diana agrees to show up but will not step one foot on the stage.

What happened in those five days where Diana agreed to show up but not perform to not only performing but reuniting with Mary and Cindy? Did she even speak to Mary and Cindy beforehand about this? Was this thrown together so fast in those five days that they literally only had that rehearsal before the doors open? It may explain why the medley was cut given how quickly this was thrown together. But also I wonder why the old hits medley wasn't pulled - I doubt they would have forgotten their parts.

One way or another, it would have been so nice and a once in 50!year event if the three of them had stood together and recreated the past for 5 minutes - it would have been a win for the program, Motown, the Supremes and the individuals. They tolerated each others presence in years after and may have had some email or phone contact - but the fans couldn’t get 5 minutes of a song or two.

Paul and Ringo managed. The Tempts and Destiny’s Child managed. Sad.

[marybrewster]

Sup_fan:

"and even if she "picked up" the lead when Diana seemed lost, hand it back or share it"

Watch the clip again. After Mary sings "Every, every night" and just before Diana introduces Smokey, Mary gestures to Diana to "take it back". Look at her hands.

[marybrewster]

Sup_fan:


"C - apparently this woman is really unable to think for herself."

As evidenced by RTL. So many want to blame Mary for Cindy's exclusion, but if Cindy Birdsong put her fate in the hands of Mary Wilson, a woman she KNEW had a 30 "beef" with Diana Ross, then to quote Berry Gordy....."that's a stupid woman".

[marybrewster]

If you watch this video Adam and the producers think this was a high point along with the gathering at the finale. Very differing viewpoints.

I've always surmised that Soft Cell had recently had a hit with "Tainted Love/WDOLG" so it was a lame attempt to bring something "youthful" to the program. Since Soft Cell were basically unknown, they brought in the next best thing, AA, who was pretty hot at the time.

[marybrewster]

Some good points that i agree with. [[Shock horror). She was still establishing a new sound and image at that point in time. I think the last thing she wanted was to be seen as a Supreme, while realising that cold shouldering the event would be construed as a snub from a haughty diva by disgruntled fans and media alike.

I think the cold shouldering at the event hits the nail on the head. Had BG and Diana talked much she left Motown? Was he still licking his wounds? I'm sure others like Martha Reeves weren't greeting Diana with open arms either. So it's not just Mary Wilson.

[jobeterob]

Sup_fan:


"C - apparently this woman is really unable to think for herself."

As evidenced by RTL. So many want to blame Mary for Cindy's exclusion, but if Cindy Birdsong put her fate in the hands of Mary Wilson, a woman she KNEW had a 30 "beef" with Diana Ross, then to quote Berry Gordy....."that's a stupid woman".

Hmmmm - hard to argue this one. Maybe today’s terminology would be “that’s a stupid person”.

Still, from the point of view of real Supremes fans, another sad and disappointing result

[bradsupremes]

I think the cold shouldering at the event hits the nail on the head. Had BG and Diana talked much she left Motown? Was he still licking his wounds? I'm sure others like Martha Reeves weren't greeting Diana with open arms either. So it's not just Mary Wilson.

I can't remember where I heard/read it, but Diana was a bit uneasy about participating because so many from the old Motown days would be there and she knew many of them were not particularly fond of her. She was also sick that week hence the red tongue. I don't think she and Berry spoke much since her departure and I believe there was a lot of unresolved things. For a lot of artists who participated, they were putting on a happy face and being professional in spite of harboring a lot of ill will toward Gordy, the label, and others.

[jobeterob]

Nope, my timeline is about right. Perhaps you're thinking of the second incident where Diana pushed Mary's mic down. That was when everybody was on the stage, at the end. The shove happened when it was just the three Supremes on stage, hence why Smokey was sent out.

I don’t think this has ever been explained this way.

Although it may be sensitive to some and unsavoury, I’d like to hear other comments. I don’t believe the books or articles spell it out like this but it’s possible.

It’s too bad the old guys that lived on Berry’s street etc. are still not on here.

[Ollie9]

Diana’s actions were enough to draw a collective gasp from the audience. This was confirmed to me many moons ago when my partner introduced me to music biz friends who had attended Motown 25.
I agree with brad in that despite any former grudges held, the other featured acts did what grownups are meant to do, remaining professional throughout.

[sup_fan]

Agreed. Berry did a lot to make them a household name, but he never could have done that if the group hadn't already had that thing that made them special. Remember, the girls had almost two years worth of amateur experience when Berry finally signed them. And the ladies continued to put in the work. It wasn't Gordy on those stages and tv shows and in the studio recording song after song.

My question is always 1) Could Berry have found another group of girls to do what the Supremes did, 2) Could the Supremes have been noticed by other record execs who would have a vision that turned them into what they were? My guess is Gordy never would have found another group of Supremes, but I suspect the Supremes could have been noticed and guided far under someone else. Thankfully, either way, we'll never know, as I like the Supremes' story just like it is.

i do think it was the perfect alignment of the stars. the Supremes were wonderfully talented but they also benefitted from the insanely mesmerizing and magical appeal of Diana Ross. Mary and Flo were way ahead of really any other girl group singer but Diana was truly unique.

but the Sups didn't write or produce their songs. HDH did that. so the talent of those men is different but equally as magical as the talent of D, M and F

And Berry brought it all together. through all of his devices [[good and bad, strong and questionable), he was the manager to help facilitate and make things happen.

[sup_fan]

I can believe she was apprehensive about the whole thing, since she and Berry weren't on good terms. The fact that she wanted to say something nice about the whole thing, on stage, in front of Berry, tells me that ultimately she was glad to be able to do something that might smooth things over.

I think the biggest problem she had was reuniting with Mary and Cindy, emphasis on Mary. Not that I think she had any real issues with either one of them, but they represented, again, especially Mary, things she would rather forget. I imagine standing onstage with Mary again, she might feel more like DianE Ross, when she would always prefer to be DIANA Ross. Even the culling of the medley down to one song probably had more to do with Diana not wanting to be a Supreme for too long rather than her being too sick. After all, she looks like she's having a ball when she cuts into Adam Ant's performance. Even her sickness, I now wonder if she made her self sick with apprehension about the event as opposed to really having a bug.

the play Dreamgirls also came out around this time and Diana was very upset about that. she had left motown less than 2 years prior to the taping of the Motown 25 special. she hadn't seen or talked to Berry since the day she met privately with him and told him she was leaving the label. She had received a massive contract with RCA and was desperate to prove she was worthy of that investment by the label and that she hadn't made a mistake by leaving Motown. WDFFIL sold very well [[even if critically it wasn't hailed as a masterpiece). SE did ok but now she was moving onto the new Ross 83 project and about to do her enormous Central Park. in addition she was still attempting to do the Josephine Baker project.

So 110% of her energy was focused on moving forward. and meanwhile there's the play DG and then this tv special.

Plus let's face it - it's pretty clear Diana has some mixed feelings about the "good ole days." this isn't 100% focused on the angst within the group. but the whole thing. nearly all of the rest of the roster of artists resented her and her success, as if she was somehow personally responsible for Berry focusing primarily on her and not them. she worked like a dog during these years, there were all of the issues with Flo and the group. Sure there were some magical moments and memories but there was a LOT that wasn't. and we probably all only know the tip of the iceberg.

And now she's being expected to participate in the show, smile and be warm and loving with all of these people. that's a lot to burden

[sup_fan]

Sup_fan:

"and even if she "picked up" the lead when Diana seemed lost, hand it back or share it"

Watch the clip again. After Mary sings "Every, every night" and just before Diana introduces Smokey, Mary gestures to Diana to "take it back". Look at her hands.

that very well could have been her intent. but don't you think mary would have mentioned that in her recap of the event? if nothing else to put herself in a positive light? don't have the book in front of me right now but i thought mary mentioned that diana seems lost and disoriented and so i took the lead. and kept singing. mary doesn't say "diana was stumbling with the lyrics and seemed lost. so i tried to help out and take a line. after singing a line, i tried to give it back to her but she was unresponsive. so to prevent the performance from completely falling apart, i kept singing." mary was definitely always pretty good about positioning herself positively in her interpretation of events

perhaps Diana was expecting them to pause the performance and start over. even though they were taping in front of a studio audience this wasn't being broadcast live. they could have retaped the segment. it would have been awkward but as we saw in the final cut, crafty editing can make just about anything look good.

[RanRan79]

but the Sups didn't write or produce their songs. HDH did that. so the talent of those men is different but equally as magical as the talent of D, M and F

The importance of HDH in the Supremes story cannot be overstated. It's very interesting to ponder what would become of the group without them.

[RanRan79]

the play Dreamgirls also came out around this time and Diana was very upset about that. she had left motown less than 2 years prior to the taping of the Motown 25 special. she hadn't seen or talked to Berry since the day she met privately with him and told him she was leaving the label. She had received a massive contract with RCA and was desperate to prove she was worthy of that investment by the label and that she hadn't made a mistake by leaving Motown. WDFFIL sold very well [[even if critically it wasn't hailed as a masterpiece). SE did ok but now she was moving onto the new Ross 83 project and about to do her enormous Central Park. in addition she was still attempting to do the Josephine Baker project.

So 110% of her energy was focused on moving forward. and meanwhile there's the play DG and then this tv special.

Plus let's face it - it's pretty clear Diana has some mixed feelings about the "good ole days." this isn't 100% focused on the angst within the group. but the whole thing. nearly all of the rest of the roster of artists resented her and her success, as if she was somehow personally responsible for Berry focusing primarily on her and not them. she worked like a dog during these years, there were all of the issues with Flo and the group. Sure there were some magical moments and memories but there was a LOT that wasn't. and we probably all only know the tip of the iceberg.

And now she's being expected to participate in the show, smile and be warm and loving with all of these people. that's a lot to burden

I'm sure all of this played a part as well. Regarding all the others, it's a good case for why everyone should be careful how we treat other people. You never know when you'll have to face them again, and under what circumstances. I think there was some resentment by those who felt like Gordy paid Diana more attention at their expense, but I suspect most of the hard feelings were about Diana's actions, attitudes and treatment of her peers, as Marvin, Stevie, and even Smokey seem to have avoided the issues with the old Motown crew. If true, that scene JRT writes about Diana announcing that it was her birthday after Motown 25 ended and only a few people congratulated her while everyone else walked away, is very sad. Luckily, I think 99 percent of her peers are over all that stuff today. One thing about the Motown family, they usually show up for each other when necessary. Diana doesn't do much in the way of publicly showing up, but she certainly has privately. They're a family, dysfunctional as they may have been, like most families. Lol

[RanRan79]

that very well could have been her intent. but don't you think mary would have mentioned that in her recap of the event? if nothing else to put herself in a positive light? don't have the book in front of me right now but i thought mary mentioned that diana seems lost and disoriented and so i took the lead. and kept singing. mary doesn't say "diana was stumbling with the lyrics and seemed lost. so i tried to help out and take a line. after singing a line, i tried to give it back to her but she was unresponsive. so to prevent the performance from completely falling apart, i kept singing." mary was definitely always pretty good about positioning herself positively in her interpretation of events

perhaps Diana was expecting them to pause the performance and start over. even though they were taping in front of a studio audience this wasn't being broadcast live. they could have retaped the segment. it would have been awkward but as we saw in the final cut, crafty editing can make just about anything look good.

Mary says in both books that Diana appeared to forget the words and stopped singing. The accounts of the event differ in both books, the one in Supreme Faith seeming more accurate based on the footage available. But in both, Mary says that Diana stopped singing. Whatever the reasons Diana stopped, I think Mary did what she was supposed to do by picking it up, and then Mary B is right that Mary tries to toss the lead back when Diana joins in on the "whoo" part, and I suspect Diana might have picked back up, but by then she notices Smokey coming out on the stage and she introduces him. Mary continues to sing and the rest is history.

Mary was a professional, and it would seem to me that's the professional thing to do. Perhaps instead of rushing out to interrupt Adam Ant's performance, Diana should have been backstage running through the words of the song if she couldn't quite remember them all. That too would have been the professional thing to do.

[sup_fan]

Mary says in both books that Diana appeared to forget the words and stopped singing. The accounts of the event differ in both books, the one in Supreme Faith seeming more accurate based on the footage available. But in both, Mary says that Diana stopped singing. Whatever the reasons Diana stopped, I think Mary did what she was supposed to do by picking it up, and then Mary B is right that Mary tries to toss the lead back when Diana joins in on the "whoo" part, and I suspect Diana might have picked back up, but by then she notices Smokey coming out on the stage and she introduces him. Mary continues to sing and the rest is history.

Mary was a professional, and it would seem to me that's the professional thing to do. Perhaps instead of rushing out to interrupt Adam Ant's performance, Diana should have been backstage running through the words of the song if she couldn't quite remember them all. That too would have been the professional thing to do.

did Diana stop singing lead because Mary usurped the lead? that's part of what we don't know. I don't know either. given how mary was a professional, i would hope to give her the benefit of the doubt that she wouldn't ever do such a thing. but i have my doubts. my feelings are that mary either arrived at M25 with an ax to grind or quickly picked up one. Randy alludes a little to this in the fact that everyone seemed to be ganging up on Diana "to GET her" so to speak. like you said, maybe the combination of her being more successful but sometimes being nasty, of her getting all of B's attention, etc. These performers also had some hefty grudges against Berry. and if they "got" Diana, they would also be "getting" Berry.

again, this is my speculation

but clearly this was a nightmare of situation. There had been plenty of press touting the Sups Reunion - although maybe some of this was planted in the press to force Diana into a corner and get her to do the show. but to have this much hype about the reunion and have it in such disarray is stunning.

[marybrewster]

Always found it funny that Diana would go on about how Berry had/s always felt that he'd never really been appreciated, to a point where she gets a little emotional. Yet she was the one that left Motown for RCA. I can't imagine he had a lot of warm fuzzies over that.

[marybrewster]

Mary says in both books that Diana appeared to forget the words and stopped singing. The accounts of the event differ in both books, the one in Supreme Faith seeming more accurate based on the footage available. But in both, Mary says that Diana stopped singing. Whatever the reasons Diana stopped, I think Mary did what she was supposed to do by picking it up, and then Mary B is right that Mary tries to toss the lead back when Diana joins in on the "whoo" part, and I suspect Diana might have picked back up, but by then she notices Smokey coming out on the stage and she introduces him. Mary continues to sing and the rest is history.

Mary was a professional, and it would seem to me that's the professional thing to do. Perhaps instead of rushing out to interrupt Adam Ant's performance, Diana should have been backstage running through the words of the song if she couldn't quite remember them all. That too would have been the professional thing to do.

I agree, and thank you. Regardless of whether Mary mentioned it in an book or press, anyone can CLEARLY see that Mary attempted to "hand back" the song to Diana. I think that hand gesture she makes is universal in any language, lol.

I also don't think for one second Mary Wilson went on that stage with the intent singing lead on SWBT. She MAY have wanted to upstage Diana in other aspects, hense the RED HOT dress, but taking over lead vocals, on purpose? No way.

[RanRan79]

did Diana stop singing lead because Mary usurped the lead? that's part of what we don't know. I don't know either. given how mary was a professional, i would hope to give her the benefit of the doubt that she wouldn't ever do such a thing. but i have my doubts. my feelings are that mary either arrived at M25 with an ax to grind or quickly picked up one. Randy alludes a little to this in the fact that everyone seemed to be ganging up on Diana "to GET her" so to speak. like you said, maybe the combination of her being more successful but sometimes being nasty, of her getting all of B's attention, etc. These performers also had some hefty grudges against Berry. and if they "got" Diana, they would also be "getting" Berry.

again, this is my speculation

but clearly this was a nightmare of situation. There had been plenty of press touting the Sups Reunion - although maybe some of this was planted in the press to force Diana into a corner and get her to do the show. but to have this much hype about the reunion and have it in such disarray is stunning.

Of the recollections about the event, no one that I can recall has ever accused Mary of taking the lead from Diana, so I suspect that Mary's recall of Diana stopping singing and then Mary picking it up is fairly accurate. Like I said before, I think if Suzanne hadn't panicked and sent Smokey out, Diana probably would have found her place in the song and the reunion could have continued as a highlight.

It really sucks that Diana didn't have the best team around her either. Had I been a part of Diana's PR team, at some point I would have suggested that she do something with Mary and Cindy to take the spotlight off of what happened at Motown 25. A surprise Supremes reunion for a medley at Central Park, especially on Day 2, would have set off pandemonium. Lol

[RanRan79]

I can't imagine he had a lot of warm fuzzies over that.

I'm sure he didn't. But what's even more crazy is him expecting Diana to have "warm fuzzies" when most of the profits from her career, she never saw, and they ended up in his pocket. Lol

[sup_fan]

Of the recollections about the event, no one that I can recall has ever accused Mary of taking the lead from Diana, so I suspect that Mary's recall of Diana stopping singing and then Mary picking it up is fairly accurate. Like I said before, I think if Suzanne hadn't panicked and sent Smokey out, Diana probably would have found her place in the song and the reunion could have continued as a highlight.

It really sucks that Diana didn't have the best team around her either. Had I been a part of Diana's PR team, at some point I would have suggested that she do something with Mary and Cindy to take the spotlight off of what happened at Motown 25. A surprise Supremes reunion for a medley at Central Park, especially on Day 2, would have set off pandemonium. Lol

that's an interesting idea. Diana did do things to support both in their individual solo careers. while i would guess she didn't want to try and hype these up too much for fear of being viewed as self serving, i think you're right - she could have done some things here and there with them to help this blow over

[sup_fan]

another thing about the reunion - does anyone know if Diana EVER sang Someday at all as a soloist? other than an instrumental inclusion on the Evening With album and set, i'm not aware of it. i don't believe it was part of her initial solo shows, was it? i know there was the Sups medley but i thought that was it. and in all of the bootleg live shows i've heard, never once is Someday part of the list.

again, total speculation here. but perhaps this song is really, really steeped in painful memories for her. too many people just assume Diana was elated to leave the sups in the dust and go be a mega star. and that she has no feelings about the group or the women. but i don't believe that. i wonder if the culmination of all of the pain and anguish within the group is sort of represented to her by this song?

[floyjoy678]

To be honest the first time I saw this reunion, I was not thinking "Oh no! They're wearing mismatched attire!". I thought Mary looked fantastic and she was going to get a thunderous applause regardless of what she was wearing. Her and Diana were on stage together again and Mary was very loved by the fans and fellow Motown-ers.

[telekin]

that very well could have been her intent. but don't you think mary would have mentioned that in her recap of the event? if nothing else to put herself in a positive light? don't have the book in front of me right now but i thought mary mentioned that diana seems lost and disoriented and so i took the lead. and kept singing. mary doesn't say "diana was stumbling with the lyrics and seemed lost. so i tried to help out and take a line. after singing a line, i tried to give it back to her but she was unresponsive. so to prevent the performance from completely falling apart, i kept singing." mary was definitely always pretty good about positioning herself positively in her interpretation of events

perhaps Diana was expecting them to pause the performance and start over. even though they were taping in front of a studio audience this wasn't being broadcast live. they could have retaped the segment. it would have been awkward but as we saw in the final cut, crafty editing can make just about anything look good.

You're expecting Mary to write a minute-by-minute, blow-by-blow in her book? She was there, she's not a fan watching a video clip on an endless loop. There's nothing in her account that's wildly or even mildly inconsistent with that.