TV Pitch - Feud: The Supremes [[Diana Ross vs. Mary Wilson)

[telekin]

I’ve been watching the latest season of the FX Feud series, Truman Capote vs. The Swans. I didn’t watch the first season - Joan Crawford vs. Bette Davis. At the time, I rolled my eyes at the thought of Ryan Murphy mining yet even more touchstones of queer/camp culture for TV consumption. I’m only a couple of episodes in so far but this season, mostly directed by Gus Van Sant, has really drawn me in.

I know there would be a million and one issues around depiction rights, music etc.. however, while watching, I couldn’t help but think the format of this show would lend itself well to an exploration of The Supremes' story through the relationship of the women who were really at the centre of it, steering clear of the clichés that would befall any kind of biopic, or Dreamgirls comparisons.

Curious if anyone else out there is thinking similarly?

[RanRan79]

I haven't watched the Feud series, and currently have no plans to do so, however, it did cross my mind, Diana vs Mary for the series. While there is no doubt it would probably be a great series, I'm just so over the drama overshadowing everything else. I would much rather have an in depth documentary, helmed by a non-partisan person, that focuses on the artistry, the good times, the music, along with the drama, as opposed to anything that is resting on the drama alone.

[telekin]

I haven't watched the Feud series, and currently have no plans to do so, however, it did cross my mind, Diana vs Mary for the series. While there is no doubt it would probably be a great series, I'm just so over the drama overshadowing everything else. I would much rather have an in depth documentary, helmed by a non-partisan person, that focuses on the artistry, the good times, the music, along with the drama, as opposed to anything that is resting on the drama alone.

Before watching this, I felt and still largely do feel the same as you regarding a documentary. I would take that over any biopic. It would be the best way to explore the musical legacy, and the influences and hear from all the various perspectives involved without resting on drama alone.

That being said, as much as I feel sometimes the drama takes away from the musical legacy, there's no denying how much that remains a big part of their appeal. It's not just great hit records, but a compelling, if not many compelling stories of triumph and tragedy all weaved together.

The thing that struck me about Gus Van Sant's direction on this particular series is his subtle touch, exploring the tensions and undercurrents without letting things devolve into histrionics. If we were to explore the drama, I would like it to steer clear of the most obvious outlines of the Supremes story and get a little bit deeper, preferably into some things that us fans know, but perhaps the general public don't.

[sup_fan]

i started watching Swans and have enjoyed it. although there are some seriously questionable things.

in one of the opening scenes, one woman gets "revenge" on her male lover who is crossing her by literally bleeding all the fuck over his bedroom while they have sex, just prior to his wife coming home. i believe there was less blood at the Tate and Labianca murders. seriously - the bed was covered, it was on the chairs, all over his hands. it was a ridiculous and frankly misogynistic portrayal of menstruation.

i also went back and watched Season 1. with this season, i was sort of impressed. obviously a lot of the material is based on hearsay and all. but i do think he created sympathy for the two women. something Mommie Dearest totally failed on. You do walk away realizing that the REAL feud wasn't between Bette and Joan but between powerful hollywood men and strong willed women

supposedly Murphy has considered doing Charles and Diana as a story. but it didn't get off the ground. I agree that the idea of DMF as a Feud would be intriguing but would never be allowed, due to rights. you could have him do Dreamgirls but again - the rights. plus i think most people are satisfied from having seen the movie that they'd be like "why are we doing this again"

it might have been interesting for him to do Wicked as a Feud season. but too late there

[telekin]

i also went back and watched Season 1. with this season, i was sort of impressed. obviously a lot of the material is based on hearsay and all. but i do think he created sympathy for the two women. something Mommie Dearest totally failed on. You do walk away realizing that the REAL feud wasn't between Bette and Joan but between powerful hollywood men and strong willed women

Well, this makes me want to reconsider that first season, because this is exactly where it could be an opportunity to tell the Supremes story differently. Ideally one can portray the 'feud' aspect on the surface, but still come away respecting what both women had to do to survive in a tough business.

The other point of connection I noticed in the second season was that it revolved around Capote's exposé and was based on a book, so I suppose in my head I was also drawing some parallels to Mary writing Dreamgirl, the circumstances which led to it and the impact that it ultimately had.

[Spreadinglove21]

If there is ever a Diana related Feud series, she will have to be dead first for it to happen. The first Feud [[Davis and Crawford) ran into a legal problem as that one depicted Olivia de Havilland in the series and in it Olivia referred to her sister Joan Fontaine [[whom she had a lifelong feud with) as a "bitch". Olivia was still alive, took exception that she would be depicted using such language and sued [[Olivia said she thought of her sister as a "dragon lady" not a "bitch"). She lost her case, but it was a headache for the producers.

[sup_fan]

Well, this makes me want to reconsider that first season, because this is exactly where it could be an opportunity to perhaps and tell the Supremes story differently. Ideally one can portray the 'feud' aspect on the surface, but still come away respecting what both women had to do to survive in a tough business.

The other point of connection I noticed in the second season was that it revolved around Capote's exposé and was based on a book, so I suppose in my head I was also drawing some parallels to Mary writing Dreamgirl, the circumstances which led to it and the impact that it ultimately had.

and i'm certainly not an expert on the history and lives of Joan and Bette. I'm of course quite familiar with Mommie Dearest, but view it mostly as extreme camp novelty rather than true biographic data. a reviewer on Youtube that i recently saw commented that the film just didn't approach the topic of "Joan Crawford" with sympathy. this isn't to say it should have excused her abuse or behavior. you don't have to make Joan a heroine but a sympathetic interpretation means that you show WHY or WHAT helped prompt her to be like this? the movie ends up just showing her as a nut or harpie. but there's more to it than that.

and i think Feud did actually do that. or at least did a better job at it. after watching, i had more sympathy for the angst that Joan was going through when the whole craziness around Oscars for Whatever Happened. what she did was still wrong, she ended up shooting herself and the movie's overall success by doing this and sort of made herself look like a fool to other. but you could at least recognize the conflicts in her mind that led to this behavior.

[sup_fan]

so building on my point about Season 1 of Feud and how it made attempts to show more of the complexities of the Joan/Bette relationship

If you were to do the Diana/Mary feud, you would have to go quite a ways back into their childhoods. You would need to go into Mary's upheaval as a girl of going from her mother, to her aunt/uncle's then back to her mother. The strict disciplinarian that was her aunt.

and for diana you'd need to delve into the complex relationship she had with her father. that desperate need for diana to receive his approval and his limited ways of expressing it.

so if you're looking at an 8-episode run, that's a lot to cover

1. their formative years so you can understand the personas of these two women and how that was formed well before they sang their first notes
2. the formation of the singing group so you could establish their initial bonds
3. THE SUPREMES - which of course is what everyone wants to see. they want to hear Stop and see the sequins and the elegance. but you have to get in the massive stress and pressure
4. the whole Flo issue - seeing her crumble under the weight of the group and then it's impact on everyone
5. post-Flo - the disintegration of the group as they become DRATS and as Diana moves out and further away
6. 70s - now the two women are able to chart their own course as singers, mothers, friends. But diana's takes off, professionally. while mary struggles. and then the abuse of mary. the stalled solo career, divorce, needing the load from Diana.
7. the book - how that really severed their relationship
8. post 80s - you could start this with the glimpse of a slight renewal in their friendship as mary loses her son and reconnects with Diana. the group being awarded their star on the Walk of Fame. but then.... RTL


that's a lot of group and ground to cover in 8 episodes lol

[telekin]

If there is ever a Diana related Feud series, she will have to be dead first for it to happen.

I didn't want to say it, but you're probably right. I'd extend this to other major players in the whole story too, from Berry Gordy to even Pedro Ferrer, and even then it's no guarantee to be free and clear of issues around depiction from surviving family members.

[telekin]

If you were to do the Diana/Mary feud, you would have to go quite a ways back into their childhoods. You would need to go into Mary's upheaval as a girl of going from her mother, to her aunt/uncle's then back to her mother. The strict disciplinarian that was her aunt.

and for diana you'd need to delve into the complex relationship she had with her father. that desperate need for diana to receive his approval and his limited ways of expressing it.

so if you're looking at an 8-episode run, that's a lot to cover

1. their formative years so you can understand the personas of these two women and how that was formed well before they sang their first notes
2. the formation of the singing group so you could establish their initial bonds
3. THE SUPREMES - which of course is what everyone wants to see. they want to hear Stop and see the sequins and the elegance. but you have to get in the massive stress and pressure
4. the whole Flo issue - seeing her crumble under the weight of the group and then it's impact on everyone
5. post-Flo - the disintegration of the group as they become DRATS and as Diana moves out and further away
6. 70s - now the two women are able to chart their own course as singers, mothers, friends. But diana's takes off, professionally. while mary struggles. and then the abuse of mary. the stalled solo career, divorce, needing the load from Diana.
7. the book - how that really severed their relationship
8. post 80s - you could start this with the glimpse of a slight renewal in their friendship as mary loses her son and reconnects with Diana. the group being awarded their star on the Walk of Fame. but then.... RTL


that's a lot of group and ground to cover in 8 episodes lol

Interesting 8 ep outline! All of those topics would have to be touched on in some way in this hypothetical series. I think there are a number of smaller vignettes across some of the books, namely Dreamgirl, Supreme Faith, CHMR and yes, even All That Glittered that could be depicted in order to illustrate some things in a more condensed form.

As an example, I recall one particular passage from Supreme Faith [[pg. 276), where Mary and Diana meet for dinner with Diana's father Fred. This is early 80s post-Motown 25, pre-Dreamgirl and they're comparing "punk cuts" and Fred spends most of the dinner talking about Diana's sister Barbara's accomplishments. Mary lights a cigarette and Diana expresses surprise that Mary still smokes and she replies, "it's my last bad habit, how about you?" Diana says, "well, sometimes when I'm alone I drink a little too much."

I remember largely forgetting about this passage until Diana's DUI back in 2002, it certainly made some things make sense.

[RanRan79]

a reviewer on Youtube that i recently saw commented that the film just didn't approach the topic of "Joan Crawford" with sympathy. this isn't to say it should have excused her abuse or behavior. you don't have to make Joan a heroine but a sympathetic interpretation means that you show WHY or WHAT helped prompt her to be like this? the movie ends up just showing her as a nut or harpie. but there's more to it than that.

I think if this movie was a screenplay that someone just thought up, what you say here would make a lot of sense. However, because the movie is based on her daughter's book, and, I'm assuming, her daughter saw her as an abusive nut and nothing more, then that's the way the story shakes up. All villains have an origin story, but to their victims, the "why" of it all is usually of little to no concern. I think the point of the movie was to showcase how mean and abusive Joan Crawford supposedly was, from the viewpoint of her daughter. A movie about Joan Crawford in general, or more specifically, one about her relationship to her children from the POV of an outsider, would certainly have to paint a more balanced picture of Joan, in the sense of explaining some of her behavior.

[sup_fan]

I think if this movie was a screenplay that someone just thought up, what you say here would make a lot of sense. However, because the movie is based on her daughter's book, and, I'm assuming, her daughter saw her as an abusive nut and nothing more, then that's the way the story shakes up. All villains have an origin story, but to their victims, the "why" of it all is usually of little to no concern. I think the point of the movie was to showcase how mean and abusive Joan Crawford supposedly was, from the viewpoint of her daughter. A movie about Joan Crawford in general, or more specifically, one about her relationship to her children from the POV of an outsider, would certainly have to paint a more balanced picture of Joan, in the sense of explaining some of her behavior.

apparently Christina Crawford was very opposed to the movie - although i'm not sure how accurate that is since it provided her with ongoing notoriety and fame. i also believe Christina's husband was heavily involved in the screenplay or the script or something? i don't all of the ins and outs. the whole production of the movie was a pretty big clusterfuck so initial ideas certainly evolved, were dropped, changed, etc.

Faye Dunaway and others have said the initial intent was to provide more of a rounded presentation of Joan but that Christina's husband had other ideas.

again - lots of hearsay and things with MD movie. i'm not hardly an expert on it