Jimmy Webb on the Jimmy Webb album.

[bradsupremes]

I know it's been mentioned on here, but Motown did have plans to release a greatest hits album on The Supremes around 1972 called Gold. Diana was suppose to get a similar album too, but both were scrapped.

[Ollie9]

I know it's been mentioned on here, but Motown did have plans to release a greatest hits album on The Supremes around 1972 called Gold. Diana was suppose to get a similar album too, but both were scrapped.

Of course we here in the UK were given “Diana Ross Greatest Hits’, filled with quality singles and album tracks. I loved the cover and gatefold sleeve.

[sup_fan]

I know it's been mentioned on here, but Motown did have plans to release a greatest hits album on The Supremes around 1972 called Gold. Diana was suppose to get a similar album too, but both were scrapped.

oh wow! no i hadn't heard that! wonder what prompted them to do so? 72 wasn't a very strong year for motown. mary even mentioned in her book how few big hit singles the label had that year. so a bunch of GH releases would have definitely sold well and brought some money in

[Ollie9]

The album should have been canned, with some of the tracks unlistenable even today. One thing Jean definitely didn’t need was being encouraged to sing in a higher key.
I think most of the songs would have suited Lynda a lot better. Perhaps the album cover was a punishment.

[Boogiedown]

Perhaps the album cover was a punishment.

well it was nothing to sneeze about.

[BobbyC]

I saw what you did there, Boogie!

[Ollie9]

well it was nothing to sneeze about.

It certainly got up my nose.

[daviddh]

Just a few points regarding the Supremes image ..
Did Diana change hers?? She was wearing gowns all the way through her career and built a career on it...she always been glam to me.
I think the issue is ,once again, the same issue that plagued the group since 1968.
Who decided to release this.???
Sorry but not every song they released after Reflections was great.
A few shining moments, love child,make you love me and someday we be together were classics but, the others were cheesey misfires.
In 1970, same thing, Ladder ,stoned and River Deep were hits but for every hit, there was a misfire.
Who was picking the singles by then.
I would have never issued Guess I'll Miss the Man as a single. Nice lead vocal. And the live version with Lynda and Mary singing harmony was nice but to syrupy for me.
The group was alienating the young record buying public.
Fact .kids 13 to 30 bought records.
If you appeal to them ,you sell. If not .your out.
The group was sounding old hat.
And then release this AC album. No harmony. Over the top backing vocals.
Just a huge disappointment that if I were at Motown , I would have never let this go.
I would have went with Promises Kept or Stevie production.
They needed to concentrate on singles by this time ,not albums.
When they got a hit .do an album.imo.
I would have pulled Life Beats, Stepping on A Dream. Or Remote Control.
And btw. Where did Frank Wilson go.
He returned in early 1973 for Love Train sessions. Some nice work with Frank .

[sup_fan]

Just a few points regarding the Supremes image ..
Did Diana change hers?? She was wearing gowns all the way through her career and built a career on it...she always been glam to me.
I think the issue is ,once again, the same issue that plagued the group since 1968.
Who decided to release this.???
Sorry but not every song they released after Reflections was great.
A few shining moments, love child,make you love me and someday we be together were classics but, the others were cheesey misfires.
In 1970, same thing, Ladder ,stoned and River Deep were hits but for every hit, there was a misfire.
Who was picking the singles by then.
I would have never issued Guess I'll Miss the Man as a single. Nice lead vocal. And the live version with Lynda and Mary singing harmony was nice but to syrupy for me.
The group was alienating the young record buying public.
Fact .kids 13 to 30 bought records.
If you appeal to them ,you sell. If not .your out.
The group was sounding old hat.
And then release this AC album. No harmony. Over the top backing vocals.
Just a huge disappointment that if I were at Motown , I would have never let this go.
I would have went with Promises Kept or Stevie production.
They needed to concentrate on singles by this time ,not albums.
When they got a hit .do an album.imo.
I would have pulled Life Beats, Stepping on A Dream. Or Remote Control.
And btw. Where did Frank Wilson go.
He returned in early 1973 for Love Train sessions. Some nice work with Frank .

i think diana was able to continually update her image and yet still be recognized as "Diana Ross" I don't think anyone was looking for the Sups to go totally rogue and do something that would alienate their existing base.

with Diana, she first changed up her image with her solo debut. the music was quite a bit different from DRATS stuff. more of an edge, tougher more soulful material. Reach out and touch had that anthem-ish quality and played up her being this accessible, caring person. then with the movie, a new superstar image emerged. and the TMITM package with jazz influenced vocals. plus she was a new mother now.

then the look on Diana 76. totally glamorous but not a single sequin. then The Boss. the mane of hair, showing off plenty of chest and leg. and again, not 1 bugle bead or sequin. then comes diana 80. wet short hair, jeans, t shirt.

now Diana live on stage was much more by the book. bob mackie all the way. but she definitely changed up her look

[RanRan79]

I know some fans think the album is bad, I don't. I played it a few times when I first acquired it, but the only songs I would ever go back to listen to were "5:30 Plane" and "Silent Voices". I had previously had "Paradise" on a Supremes compilation, so I was already familiar with that, and of course "I Guess I'll Miss the Man". But I'm so unfamiliar with the album, as a result of so few spins, that I can't list the tracks by memory, and some songs I can't even sing the chorus because I just don't remember off the top of my head. I think it's easily the Supremes album I play the least.

The quality of the album isn't bad or poor at all, not in my opinion. The big problem with it is that it just wasn't the Supremes. The group had been stepping outside their usual fare going back to the Liverpool album. Then there was the C&W album, Sam Cooke, Rodgers and Hart, even Funny Girl. And throughout all of those departures in sound, the style was always still very much the Supremes. Nothing on the JW album screams SUPREMES to me. You could wipe Jean and Mary's lead voices off the album and replace with any random singers and the album doesn't really change much, if at all.

It was the wrong sound, wrong style at such a critical phase of the group. Motown may have been pissed that an outsider was brought in, but ultimately they green lit the project. Had Motown been about the serious business of music, especially where the Supremes are concerned, they would have told the ladies "no", told Jimmy "thanks, but no thanks" and then, seeing how serious the ladies were about trying to get something going, Motown would have gone into beast mode to get a hit single and appropriate album out.

[daviddh]

I would have preferred the Hits package over this mess.
But they had Promises Kept in the can.
And soon would be recording with Stevie Wonder and again with Frank Wilson.
Just a bad choice of material.imo

[sup_fan]

I would have preferred the Hits package over this mess.
But they had Promises Kept in the can.
And soon would be recording with Stevie Wonder and again with Frank Wilson.
Just a bad choice of material.imo

IMO the Promises Kept material was rather subpar. it wasn't bad but it wasn't exciting. the volume of cover tunes would make that album a bit of a challenge, especially following the extraordinary Frank Wilson albums and even Floy Joy.

this is just my theory but while we look at these 19 or so songs as the "promises kept" sessions, i don't know that motown ever looked at them as a collective group. I think motown was "fishing" at this point. sure Ladder and SL were big hits. and RO did pretty well. but all of the subsequent albums pretty much bombed. NJ did alright but only Top 20. the duets failed. Touch failed. IMO the Supremes became available to any and all producers - you have Frank doing a tune with them, A&S did one, Clay McMurray, Bobby Taylor, Henry Cosby, Smokey, The Clan, Dean Taylor. pretty much everyone!

my guess is they purposely had this variety going on to see what might stick - the proverbial pasta thrown against the wall. out of the various tunes, they opted to go with Smokey. and when it sold, he got the album opportunity. had they gone with A&S and Can't Get You Out Of My Mind and it had done well, my guess is A&S would have done an album instead of FJ.

so i don't think they could have thrown these random "promises kept" tracks into an album

[BobbyC]

1972 ad for Jimmy's album

[Spreadinglove21]

1972 ad for Jimmy's album

Was that Supremes 3 headed butterfly image inspired by Ghidorah the 3 headed monster?

[sup_fan]

Was that Supremes 3 headed butterfly image inspired by Ghidorah the 3 headed monster?

hahahaha love this!!!! the multi-headed hydra lol

[sup_fan]

1972 ad for Jimmy's album

as a marketing professional, this is a perfect case study in how NOT to do an ad. this is probably one of the worse motown ads ever. now many times they were not especially inspiring. the YCHL one has a decent pic of the girls and the title of the song with sort of "fast" lines behind the words. making them sort of appear to be speeding across the page. but it does the job - you instantly know the group and the song. done.

this is just an idiotic mess. they wrote 19 paragraph of nonsense - none of the copy really makes any sense. sort of a new-agey blubber. the pic of the girls is tiny and poor image quality. the title of the song is buried in all that useless copy. and the bizarre Mothra cartoon image is unappealing and unnecessary. and it's bigger than the pic of the actual girls!!

[Boogiedown]

"Presenting: IGIMTM the best and only reason to buy the Supremes new album. In fact screw the album we're not even mentioning, just buy this single "

[Boogiedown]

added:

You can't even make out what new Supreme is who in that teensy picture.

and there's that darn "touch" word again.

[jobeterob]

Maybe Mary or Pedro recognized they were stepping too far away from what the Supremes were known for and agreed to put IGIMTM on to preserve some connection to the past

[bradsupremes]

Maybe Mary or Pedro recognized they were stepping too far away from what the Supremes were known for and agreed to put IGIMTM on to preserve some connection to the past

Pedro was not part of the picture at this time.

[BobbyC]

No, it's Mothra

[blackguy69]

Maybe there’s one possibility that the Blackberries were at least on one track. Seeing that if she said that her and Jean were standing with them, then it’s possible that they were at in I Keep It Hid seeing that that would be the one song we know for sure Jean sang in the background.

[carlo]

Maybe there’s one possibility that the Blackberries were at least on one track. Seeing that if she said that her and Jean were standing with them, then it’s possible that they were at in I Keep It Hid seeing that that would be the one song we know for sure Jean sang in the background.

It would make sense to me if The Blackberries are on "I Guess I'll Miss The Man", since it's the only track not produced by Jimmy Webb that's on the album. It was co-produced by Sherlie Matthews, so it would make sense if she and The Blackberries did background vocals with Mary and Lynda on that particular recording.

Has anyone ever asked Darlene Love if she remembers doing sessions for this album? If not, perhaps I'll write a note to her.

It's funny to me that this LP has received so much criticism over the years and that the fan base has always been divided over it. It remains to be one of my top favourite Supremes albums, as well as my husband's favourite. He doesn't go out of his way to listen to The Supremes, since he hears them enough when I play their music at home. However, he has regularly played this album and he had me buy him the Japanese CD release, so he could play it in the car [back when we could play CDs in our vehicles ]. I ended up buying two copies of that Japanese release, as I wasn't about to let him own something of The Supremes that I didn't have! It didn't matter that I already had this album on vinyl and as part of the This Is The Story box set.

[carlo]

I re-visited Midnight Johnny's interview with Jean from 2005. She understandably didn't remember a lot of details, when he asked her about different events. He mentioned how it's been said that The Blossoms were added onto the Jimmy Webb LP and her response was, "Who?" He explained and her response was, "Don't believe everything you read...if they aren't credited on the album, then they aren't on it." He said, "Well you worked with The Andantes and they weren't credited either." Touché. She went on to say that she didn't record with The Andantes, since she didn't do many background vocals, beyond the initial Right On LP.

[carlo]

Listen to this track, "Fire and Rain" from The Blossoms' 1972 Shockwave LP. To me, the background vocals sound comparable to the background vocals heard on the Jimmy Webb LP. They're singing in a much higher key here, like they did on that album.



"Cherish What Is Dear To You" is also from that same album. When I hear the Blossoms singing "don't wait till it's gone", the way they're singing the final "gone" in the chorus, before each verse, sounds reminiscent to me of the "gone" that is sung in the line, "but the 5:30 plane is already gone".



I'm not as familiar with The Blackberries background vocals, other than what is on The Supremes' recordings. Are there specific recordings that The Blackberries have done that are sonically comparable to what we hear in the background on the Jimmy Webb LP?

[carlo]

...answering my own question here lol. I hadn't heard this track before. "Somebody Up There" [from the Complete Motown Singles Vol. 12A: 1972] by The Blackberries which does indeed sound very strikingly similar to the background vocals on the Jimmy Webb LP.



I'm now leaning towards The Blackberries as well! They certainly sound like the same voices I'm used to hearing on one of my favourite Jimmy Webb tracks, "Paradise".

Now where's that unreleased Blackberries Motown album?

[Ollie9]

I'm now leaning towards The Blackberries as well! They certainly sound like the same voices I'm used to hearing on one of my favourite Jimmy Webb tracks, "Paradise".

I can definitely hear a similarity. I consider “Paradise” one of their better performances on the JW album. I think had they mixed the best of JW with the stronger tracks from the Promises Kept sessions it might have proved one of the groups strongest albums.
Perhaps from a contractual perspective this wasn’t possible.

[bradsupremes]

Here is another example of the Blackberries:


As compared to the Blossoms on Bill Medley's "Brown Eyed Woman." They are clearly double-tracked on this, but even without Darlene singing lead, you can pick out her voice in the background. While belting out, there are similarities to things like "5:30 Plane," and "Paradise," I just don't hear their sound anywhere on the Jimmy Webb album.


Something else to take into consideration - The Blackberries were signed to Motown. It would make sense for them to be around and be used as compared to the Blossoms weren't part of the Motown wheelhouse. Now, I know Jimmy Webb had been far removed from his Motown days and the musicians he used weren't Motown folks either, but it is something to consider.

[daviddh]

Brad, do you know if there were outakes from the JW sessions.
Any info on the 73 love Train sessions

[carlo]

Thanks Brad. I took a listen to Kidnapped as well last night, when I was looking up The Blackberries. Great track.

I noticed that an "Ivyfield"[aka Steve Weaver] had edited The Blackberries' Wikipedia page in recent years, stating that Jean and Lynda had confirmed in a joint interview that they recalled they were in the studio with them for this album [as previously mentioned above]. He goes on to say that Mary Wilson had incorrectly mentioned in her memoir that it was The Blossoms. I had checked her book Supreme Faith yesterday and she only made a general reference to "additional voices" that were added onto the recordings, but didn't identify who it was. I then realized it was in the 70's Supremes Anthology booklet where Mary was quoted as saying it was The Blossoms. She probably said this because it was what Jimmy Webb had been claiming, all these years. I know her memory on certain specifics was understandably not all that great either.

[blackguy69]

Let’s be truthful. If it’s possible for Mary to be incorrect then it’s possible for Jean and Lynda to be incorrect. All of the ladies at one point or another given incorrect information.

Thanks Brad. I took a listen to Kidnapped as well last night, when I was looking up The Blackberries. Great track.

I noticed that an "Ivyfield"[aka Steve Weaver] had edited The Blackberries' Wikipedia page in recent years, stating that Jean and Lynda had confirmed in a joint interview that they recalled they were in the studio with them for this album [as previously mentioned above]. He goes on to say that Mary Wilson had incorrectly mentioned in her memoir that it was The Blossoms. I had checked her book Supreme Faith yesterday and she only made a general reference to "additional voices" that were added onto the recordings, but didn't identify who it was. I then realized it was in the 70's Supremes Anthology booklet where Mary was quoted as saying it was The Blossoms. She probably said this because it was what Jimmy Webb had been claiming, all these years. I know her memory on certain specifics was understandably not all that great either.

[bradsupremes]

Let’s be truthful. If it’s possible for Mary to be incorrect then it’s possible for Jean and Lynda to be incorrect. All of the ladies at one point or another given incorrect information.

True, but this was Lynda's first recording session with the group. That's going to stand out as a vivid memory as compared to Mary where this was just another of hundreds of sessions she did.

[blackguy69]

Did Lynda before claimed she was on the FJ album?

True, but this was Lynda's first recording session with the group. That's going to stand out as a vivid memory as compared to Mary where this was just another of hundreds of sessions she did.

[bradsupremes]

Did Lynda before claimed she was on the FJ album?

According to the interview she did for the fan club newsletter in early 1973, she said:
"I didn't do the songs on Floy Joy, any of them. It was definitely Cindy. Actually, the first recording that I was on with the Supremes was the Jim Webb album."

[jobeterob]

Let’s be truthful. If it’s possible for Mary to be incorrect then it’s possible for Jean and Lynda to be incorrect. All of the ladies at one point or another given incorrect information.

Surely not Diana?

Ok ignore that.

Is the consensus that Motown insisted on IGIMTM going on this album and being the first single - because of their Pippin connection?

It’s a nice album cut and it was more Supremes like than Touch by a country mile but the Supremes were rapidly going out of style and IGIMTM helped them seem like yesterdays girls

[sup_fan]

Surely not Diana?

Ok ignore that.

Is the consensus that Motown insisted on IGIMTM going on this album and being the first single - because of their Pippin connection?

It’s a nice album cut and it was more Supremes like than Touch by a country mile but the Supremes were rapidly going out of style and IGIMTM helped them seem like yesterdays girls

yes motown had invested in Pippin so they had some of their acts record some of the music. the sups did IGIMTM. the J5 did Corner of the Sky [[which Diana later included in her live show) and Irene Ryan did another song. can't remember the title of it.

deke coproduced IGIMTM and it's a lovely tune, even if the lyrics are a bit too depressing to make it a likely big hit song. but the production is elegant and warm. too bad Deke didn't remix the entire JW lp to more fit in with IGIMTM.

[sansradio]

Irene Ryan did another song. can't remember the title of it.

"No Time at All."

[Boogiedown]

I appreciate those that can distinguish the variables in the voices of groups and their back up singers. [as an aside,I admit as a Beatles fan [not adamant] I never gave pause to who was lead singing between Paul and John...of course on many songs it was obvious and I never went out of my way to realize which of the two likely wrote what. So currently that has been an added focus when listening to the Beatles channel]

Once I realized that some groups like The Ritchie Family changed out some singers it helps to explain how something seemed lacking [off] in later releases. [this could be said for Supremes also] .

Since The Blackberries and the Blossoms are discernible, I'll side with the ears that are paying attention.

It is odd to me that Webb lists the singers by each of their names instead of just saying The Blossoms [what was the point of that] and it does seem very likely he doesn't remember correctly which girls sang on which album since he didn't appear to be loyal to using any of them, even using his sister on one album instead .
Unless I missed it, I don't see on any of his projects where Webb goes out of his way to credit having used The Blackberries....he apparently didn't think it that important.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Motown used additional vocalists on a lot of groups. It certainly doesn't mean the groups couldn't sing or else the live shows would have flopped. The Four Tops were on When the Lovelight because they wanted a heavy, deeper male vocal background in spots. Before they were signed the Supremes did backgrounds and handclaps. Had they been bad singers, they wouldn't have used them. The thing I didn't like was when he stated that with the background he brought in that the Supremes never sounded so good. I beg to differ. Listen to the last 3 LPs when there were no additional vocalists. The Supremes had a very distinct sound from Diana, Mary & Flo up to Mary, Scherrie & Susaye.
The thing is if you want a fuller sound you shouldn't say disparaging comments about the talents of the group you are producing. Very wrong and unprofessional.

[sup_fan]

my guess is that JW wasn't meaning that the sound prior was bad. but what he developed was this massive choral sound which was very different. and if you are looking for or prefer that big sound, this would be a good version of it. so i think his comment is more that he found this to be a big and great sound.

what's so interesting is that it's not like the group hadn't had big or complex vocals prior. Lovelight is a great example and it worked. but Run is another great example and how it didn't work.

Someday certainly had a bit of a choral effect that really sounded nothing like "the supremes" but it still worked

Loving Country, This is the story and Touch both had lots of layered vocals. i'm pretty sure it wasn't all the supremes but i do think Frank did do some additional vocal tracks and layers of the sups and then added in whatever other background singers.

and later songs like Sha La Bandit and Give Out had tons of layered vocals AND all done solely by MSC.

so there are plenty of examples bigger sup vocals. but for the most part, they all still sound "supreme" The sound of JM doesn't sound supreme. to my ear it's more Phil Specter wall of sound and that just wasn't Motown

[RanRan79]

Based off of the videos posted here, I'm torn between whether it's the Blossoms or the Blackberries. However, using my deductive reasoning, it seems like it would make sense that Jimmy used the Blossoms for two reasons: [[a) He said he used them, and [[b) He was not an in-house Motown producer, so why would he go out of his way to bring in another Motown group rather than use a group he was already very much familiar with and comfortable working with in the Blossoms?

No disrespect to the Blackberries- I would love for all of their stuff to be released because they were vocally fantastic- but were their names even ringing out in the music business where people outside of Motown wanted to use them? It's hard for me to imagine Jimmy- even in a Motown studio- saying "get me some random female singers", or "bring me the Blackberries". Makes more sense that in his vision for this Supremes album, if he's hearing a chorus of voices, he's going to reach out to singers he has already worked with.

My two cents.

[bradsupremes]

Based off of the videos posted here, I'm torn between whether it's the Blossoms or the Blackberries. However, using my deductive reasoning, it seems like it would make sense that Jimmy used the Blossoms for two reasons: [[a) He said he used them, and [[b) He was not an in-house Motown producer, so why would he go out of his way to bring in another Motown group rather than use a group he was already very much familiar with and comfortable working with in the Blossoms?

No disrespect to the Blackberries- I would love for all of their stuff to be released because they were vocally fantastic- but were their names even ringing out in the music business where people outside of Motown wanted to use them? It's hard for me to imagine Jimmy- even in a Motown studio- saying "get me some random female singers", or "bring me the Blackberries". Makes more sense that in his vision for this Supremes album, if he's hearing a chorus of voices, he's going to reach out to singers he has already worked with.

My two cents.

The thing is that he worked with the Blackberries quite extensively. I would dare to say much more than he worked with the Blossoms. The only instances I can recall the Blossoms working with Jimmy Webb was during the Johnny Rivers sessions in 1967. Sherlie Matthews, Clydie King, and Venetta Fields were quite well known in the Los Angeles music scene for their studio session work for most of the 60s and into the 70s. They recorded with Joe Cocker, Burt Bacharach, The Rolling Stones, Humble Pie, just to name a few. They were used just as much as the Blossoms. Venetta was a former Ikette, Clydie was a former Raelette. Sherlie is on Thelma's Sunshower album as was Patrice Holloway. I'm quite positive they along with Clydie and Venetta were used on the Richard Harris albums he produced. And it would make sense to use them if they were around the studios especially if they were signed at Motown at the time.

[RanRan79]

The thing is that he worked with the Blackberries quite extensively. I would dare to say much more than he worked with the Blossoms. The only instances I can recall the Blossoms working with Jimmy Webb was during the Johnny Rivers sessions in 1967. Sherlie Matthews, Clydie King, and Venetta Fields were quite well known in the Los Angeles music scene for their studio session work for most of the 60s and into the 70s. They recorded with Joe Cocker, Burt Bacharach, The Rolling Stones, Humble Pie, just to name a few. They were used just as much as the Blossoms. Venetta was a former Ikette, Clydie was a former Raelette. Sherlie is on Thelma's Sunshower album as was Patrice Holloway. I'm quite positive they along with Clydie and Venetta were used on the Richard Harris albums he produced. And it would make sense to use them if they were around the studios especially if they were signed at Motown at the time.

Ah, okay, I didn't know any of this. It makes sense. So maybe it was the Blackberries. Well at least we know one thing that no one has disputed: Mary, Jean and Lynda are on the album. I guess we should be glad for that. Lol

[Boogiedown]

Can this really be the best this project has to offer ? No wonder Jean was concerned about her vocal chords.

"Well I guess we could release that darn Pippin song we have sitting on the shelf."




I bet Jimmy 'bout fell out of his chair when he saw this inserted into his work !

[Spreadinglove21]

Is there any song from the Webb sessions where Lynda's voice is prominent in the background? Hard to do given the multitude of voices on the backing vocals, though Jean made her presence more than felt when she sang back up on I Keep It Hid.