Jimmy Webb on the Jimmy Webb album.

[blackguy69]

I hope the link works. I know we’ve talked about this before and will talk about it again but i saw this on FB this morning.



https://www.facebook.com/share/p/wgh9Cn9VwHTSRwxX/?mibextid=K35XfP

[sup_fan]

haha - great minds think alike lol. I just read this on FB and was gonna post


i find the last bit very interesting. he talks about the jacked up cover but IMO it sounds like he's also acknowledging that the SOUND of the lp wasn't a supremes' sound and that it wouldn't work for the group.

So is that Jimmy acknowledging that his approach was in error or is he alluding to somehow the finished product wasn't "supremes" and wasn't what he had intended? Did motown remix things or use mixes that weren't final or ready? did they refuse to allow him to continue working on the material to actually finish it and so it's not where he wanted it?

or am i reading too much into it? lol

[marybrewster]

"Diana was leaving the group to pursue a solo career". Was JW in a coma for 3 years?

[blackguy69]

Lol I don’t know but sometimes you get busy and let things slip. But he reiterated that it was the Blossoms and not the blackberries doing the extra vocals.

"Diana was leaving the group to pursue a solo career". Was JW in a coma for 3 years?

[marybrewster]

Lol I don’t know but sometimes you get busy and let things slip. But he reiterated that it was the Blossoms and not the blackberries doing the extra vocals.

Lol, agreed. But you know some will still argue until death that it's the Blackberries. I do wonder though, when Sherlie Matthews was brought in, if she didn't "fatten up" those backgrounds.

[blackguy69]

He mentioned sherlie Matthews in regards to IGIMTM not her being in the background vocals.

Lol, agreed. But you know some will still argue until death that it's the Blackberries. I do wonder though, when Sherlie Matthews was brought in, if she didn't "fatten up" those backgrounds.

[marybrewster]

Lol, agreed. But you know some will still argue until death that it's the Blackberries. I do wonder though, when Sherlie Matthews was brought in, if she didn't "fatten up" those backgrounds.

Total side note: Shirlie turns NINETY this year!

[jobeterob]

I agree with lots of what he said. I liked the album a lot.

It should have had a group picture on the cover and 530 Plane should have been the first single.

Everything about the Supremes was not working by the end of 1972 - inactivity, management, revolving door, disagreements - it all damaged the chances this album had

[RanRan79]

Interesting, his anecdote about Jean and the doctor's note. Also interesting is his reaction to it. Whether the note was really from a doctor or not, clearly the singer is having concerns about the way she's being directed to sing. As a producer, you don't address that? I'm hoping it really did go down the way he says it did. Jean offering to have Ernie explain it to Jimmy is officially one of my favorite Supremes moments.

[sup_fan]

Interesting, his anecdote about Jean and the doctor's note. Also interesting is his reaction to it. Whether the note was really from a doctor or not, clearly the singer is having concerns about the way she's being directed to sing. As a producer, you don't address that? I'm hoping it really did go down the way he says it did. Jean offering to have Ernie explain it to Jimmy is officially one of my favorite Supremes moments.

i agree - like with what Niles Rodgers did with Diana and Workin Overtime. many of those tunes are simply arranged too high for her. it's one thing to push the singer to strain and add that emotional component. it's another thing when they can't do it or sound bad doing it. IMO that's a producer being lazy and not doing his homework prior to working with an artist. Clearly they would have some indication of what range this singer usually performs in. if nothing else they can just listen to a song and then on a piano identify the key signature. that should give them some basics. And certain songs sound best in certain keys and if that key doesn't work with that artist, then best to go find another tune.

[Boogiedown]

The Supremes backgrounds had never sounded so good.

Ouch !!

[smallworld]

I gather this quote is from his memoir.

David Geffen called and asked if I would like to produce the Supremes. I thought Motown was a small receding speck in my rear-view mirror and suddenly here they were with a dream project. The one little hang-up: Diana Ross was leaving the group to pursue a solo career. Well, of course! That's what successful groups do. It is so hard to come up with that elusive chemistry, that prime number that can't be divided by anything except itself, and when you have it--a virtual moneymachine--well, of course you break it.

Jean Terrell was a powerful singer, more from the Aretha Franklin mold of gospel influence than the "little voice" sound of Diana Ross who she was set to replace. Her brother was World Heavyweight Champion Ernie Terrell. Replacing Cindy Birdsong was Lynda Laurence. I heard a number of sides and demos by her and, satisfied that Mary Wilson was still on board I thought, why not? Perhaps we could rework the franchise and cut something that would take advantage of the singer-songwriter wave currently inundating the nation.

The girls didn't blink an eye when I walked in the first night with "All I Want" by Joni Mitchell. They were ready for changes in their traditional repertoir. I also had the hopeful "When Can Brown Begin?" The label wasn't looking over my shoulder so I ran with it. I worked the group hard. So hard in fact, that one night Jeanie came in with a note from her doctor. It was brief:

"Dear Mr. Webb, could you please refrain from requiring Miss Terrell to sing any notes above a high C? I believe she is damaging her vocal cords. Yours truly, Dr. So and So."

I laughed and looked at Jean and said, :You're putting me on, right?

"If you think so," she said, "next time I'll have my brother come over and 'splain to ya."

Okay. I still wasn't getting the sound I needed. I called Darlene Love and she brought in Fanita James and Jean King and now the sound was fat. The Supremes backgrounds had never sounded so good. We finished it up and turned it over to the label. They promptly brought in Shirley [sic] Matthews and Deke Richards to produce a "single." This turned out to be Stephen Schwartz' lovely song "I Guess I'll Miss the Man." They turned it over to the art department.

The cover was a close-up of a dandelion puffball backlit by a setting sun. Now, if I wanted to call attention to a new album by a bunch of new Supremes I would put their goddamn pictures on the front of it and call it "The New Supremes." This product, almost impossible to recognize as a Supremes album, was called The Supremes [[Produced by Jimmy Webb). When I saw the cover, I knew it was a goner. The whole genetically engineered mess hit the floor like a chunk of lard. It achieved the lowest chart position in Supremes history: 129. So much for "When Can Brown Begin?" Even though the album scored a respectable twenty-seven on the Billboard R&B chart, none of my productions for the album were ever released as a single. Revisionists laud this album and say it was among the best of the Supremes, but I'm sure that is not correct. There was only one real problem with it: It wasn't the Supremes.

It's funny to me how Webb mentions the singer-songwriter craze as a jumping off point yet the album he made is so unlike that movement in sound.

[daviddh]

So you produce a Supremes album but use the Blossoms.
So it's a jean n Blossoms album.
Diana left 1970. This was 1972.
Where all these his songs?
I would have rather had a Promises Kept collection.
I liked only two songs
I keep it hid
When can brown begin
The rest was syrupy mess

[smallworld]

Was David Geffen a friend of Mary Wilson's? He didn't have a business connection with Motown, did he?

I've never liked the lyric implication of "When Can Brown Begin."

[telekin]

Was David Geffen a friend of Mary Wilson's? He didn't have a business connection with Motown, did he?

I don't think the Geffen connection was with Mary or Motown. I haven't read his book but I believe Jimmy Webb was probably signed to Geffen's label, Asylum Records at the time.

[blackguy69]

There’s a particular poster on FB who swears Lynda told him it was the Blackberries and not the Blossoms who were the added voices.

[bradsupremes]

Lol I don’t know but sometimes you get busy and let things slip. But he reiterated that it was the Blossoms and not the blackberries doing the extra vocals.

I'm one of those folks who adamantly believe it is not the Blossoms on this album. Webb may have said it was the Blossoms, but in this same retelling of how he worked with the ladies he said Diana was leaving the group when he was contacted to produce this album so it's clear his memory is fuzzy.

Those additional voices are way too heavy in sound to be the Blossoms. I was just listening to the songs from their "Shockwave" album and it's clear they aren't the same. He mentioned their sound was "fat," but that's not the way I would describe their sound. The Blossoms had a very sweet, lighter, and well-rounded sound. The voices on the JW album are much more earthier, heavy, soulful in sound. Plus Darlene Love's voice is easy to pick out even when she was singing lighter in the background - I don't hear her at all on the JW album.

Steve Weaver recalled both Jean and Lynda told him that it was Venetta Fields and Clydie King who sang with them on the JW sessions.

[blackguy69]

Unless one of the blackberries confirms it, and in all these years not a peep. And let’s be truthful

I'm one of those folks who adamantly believe it is not the Blossoms on this album. Webb may have said it was the Blossoms, but in this same retelling of how he worked with the ladies he said Diana was leaving the group when he was contacted to produce this album so it's clear his memory is fuzzy.

Those additional voices are way too heavy in sound to be the Blossoms. I was just listening to the songs from their "Shockwave" album and it's clear they aren't the same. He mentioned their sound was "fat," but that's not the way I would describe their sound. The Blossoms had a very sweet, lighter, and well-rounded sound. The voices on the JW album are much more earthier, heavy, soulful in sound. Plus Darlene Love's voice is easy to pick out even when she was singing lighter in the background - I don't hear her at all on the JW album.

Steve Weaver recalled both Jean and Lynda told him that it was Venetta Fields and Clydie King who sang with them on the JW sessions.

[jobeterob]

Setting myself up for a shot or two, and I appreciate the historical interest in who sang what, but all that matters to me on most of these records is the lead singer; the exceptions are a Song like SITNOL where the background at the very beginning of the song matters a lot.

Most of this album I enjoy a lot except for a couple cuts on side 2 where Jean has to yell too much

[bradsupremes]

Unless one of the blackberries confirms it, and in all these years not a peep. And let’s be truthful

I don’t believe it’s the Blossoms. It’s not their sound. Darlene, Fanita or Jean never confirmed they were on this album either. If Mary and Jimmy say it’s the Blossoms, and Jean and Lynda say it’s the Blackberries [[Venetta and Clydie) then who’s wrong?

I should also mention that JW claims he wasn’t getting the sound he wanted from JML so he called in the Blossoms to add to the vocals, but it’s been confirmed on a John Perrone show that the backgrounds were recorded together. All the ladies together on the same track in the studio at the same time. Mary never said she sung with the Blossoms in the studio. Jean and Lynda said the Blackberries did.

To throw another wrench into the system - Mary confirmed in a letter to Randy Taraborrelli from March 1972 that they completed the Floy Joy and JW albums with Cindy. Looking at their itinerary, they did go out to LA mid-March after their gig at the Elmwood Casino where sessions took place. A few years ago, I asked JW if he remembers the sessions with Cindy and he said “No…I don’t remember Cindy in the sessions.” So if Mary confirmed Cindy was on the sessions right after they took place but then JW says she wasn’t, who’s wrong?

[blackguy69]

We know Cindy wasn’t on the JW album. You are right that it was never confirmed that the blossoms were on the album but also it was never confirmed that the blackberries were on it also. 2 people are saying one thing and 2 are saying another. Who’s correct, who knows. All of their memories are fuzzy to a degree. These girls were so busy can any of them remember every thing they did. Some of us can’t remember what we had for lunch 2 days ago lol.

[blackguy69]

But I do know that Lynda did sing with the blackberries when Jean did her solo.

[bradsupremes]

We know Cindy wasn’t on the JW album.

But that's the thing - we don't know. The back of the JW album only says the sessions took place between March-June 1972. We don't have exact dates but it's easy to figure out with their itinerary. If Mary wrote a letter in March to Randy, who was running the fan club at the time, saying that they recorded the JW album with Cindy and we compare it to their itinerary, it's very possible she could have been on it.

I have an interview Lynda did on her first anniversary of being in the group that was sold through the fan club newsletters and she discusses how after she auditioned in New York, she was brought to Detroit to observe their live shows at the Elmwood Casino which was March 6-18, 1972. Following the gig, she says she was asked to travel with the group out to LA. Of the 11 page interview, I'm missing the one page that she discusses what they did in LA, but she does say that's when the photo session for the Floy Joy album took place and that Cindy didn't want to appear in the session because she was pregnant. Afterward Lynda returned to Wonderlove to finish up final gigs with Stevie with the last one being April 4th. The ladies were to embark on a gig in Sydney, Australia, but Jean got sick and had to be hospitalized so the engagement was canceled. Following that, they go to Hawaii where she makes her debut in Jean's place.

So we know something happened out in LA between March 18-April 4 that involved all four ladies. The sessions with JW could have taken place during this time.

[sup_fan]

to add to this, the girls appear on the Dick Cavett show in June 72 and performed Tossin and talked about working with Jimmy Webb. so not only had they recorded the song but prepared the live charts for it and incorporated it into the live performances

[floyjoy678]

It seemed to me that Jean didn't have the best memory when it came to a lot of the recording. Didn't she say she didn't know the Andantes were on some of the songs?

And then Mary has said many times Reflections was the last single Flo sang on but many of you say it's Marlene.

I do know Darlene and Fanita's voices pretty well from when they sang on the Ronettes and Crystals songs and I do not really hear them in those voices on Jimmy Webb. But that's also not to say they're not there. The Blossoms had the ability to blend and differentiate their sound.

[blackguy69]

According to the booklet, she auditioned while the girls were in the middle of the Elmwood engagement. So which is it?

But that's the thing - we don't know. The back of the JW album only says the sessions took place between March-June 1972. We don't have exact dates but it's easy to figure out with their itinerary. If Mary wrote a letter in March to Randy, who was running the fan club at the time, saying that they recorded the JW album with Cindy and we compare it to their itinerary, it's very possible she could have been on it.

I have an interview Lynda did on her first anniversary of being in the group that was sold through the fan club newsletters and she discusses how after she auditioned in New York, she was brought to Detroit to observe their live shows at the Elmwood Casino which was March 6-18, 1972. Following the gig, she says she was asked to travel with the group out to LA. Of the 11 page interview, I'm missing the one page that she discusses what they did in LA, but she does say that's when the photo session for the Floy Joy album took place and that Cindy didn't want to appear in the session because she was pregnant. Afterward Lynda returned to Wonderlove to finish up final gigs with Stevie with the last one being April 4th. The ladies were to embark on a gig in Sydney, Australia, but Jean got sick and had to be hospitalized so the engagement was canceled. Following that, they go to Hawaii where she makes her debut in Jean's place.

So we know something happened out in LA between March 18-April 4 that involved all four ladies. The sessions with JW could have taken place during this time.

[BobbyC]

It was the Supreme's manager who contacted Geffen about using Jimmy as a producer.

You know, it is shocking that anybody was using Jimmy Webb as a producer at all at this point! Most of Jimmy's work could be charitably called hit or miss, and he was never a consistent hit maker. People don't understand that one of his signature songs, Up Up and Away for the 5th Dimension, didn't even go gold upon it's release--it only hit #7 on the Pop chart. Even Stoned Soul Picnic did better than that. Jimmy produced their Magic Garden LP in 1968 and it bombed, producing no hit songs at all. Jimmy's two singles from the magic Garden, Paper Cup and Carpet Man, barely scraped the top 40, while Webb completely ignored a sleeper hit on the album, The Worst That Could Happen. It became a hit the next year for Brooklyn Bridge, but not for Jimmy. In 1975, ABC records demanded that the 5th be reunited with Webb for Earthbound--and although I think Earthbound is the 5th's finest moment on record, it bombed completely, not even hitting the Hot 100 albums.

Beyond that, most of Jimmy's work flopped. Sunshower flopped, Supremes flopped, etc. Glenn Campbell had two hits on him, but then that fizzled. So why did people keep using him? I found his choice of outside songs really bizarre as well--who the hell needed to hear another take on Tossin' and Turnin'? Why was Cheap Loving included on the Supreme's record? It didn't fit IMO. Uhg. Jimmy had greatness in him but it never crystalized into anything consistently.

[bradsupremes]

According to the booklet, she auditioned while the girls were in the middle of the Elmwood engagement. So which is it?

From what Lynda said in the interview she did back in 1973, they heard her sing in New York and asked her to come to Detroit where she sang for them again, but then was asked to stay and observe the shows.

[blackguy69]

Mary said they caught Stevie’s show and noticed her.

From what Lynda said in the interview she did back in 1973, they heard her sing in New York and asked her to come to Detroit where she sang for them again, but then was asked to stay and observe the shows.

[sup_fan]

From what Lynda said in the interview she did back in 1973, they heard her sing in New York and asked her to come to Detroit where she sang for them again, but then was asked to stay and observe the shows.

to add to this, according to mary's book they were initially interested in Sundray. but when they saw the group live, the spotted Lynda and changed to her

I can't say i'm particularly familiar with Sundray to know what they might have initially been interested in or how she's similar/different from Lynda and what caught their eye with Lynda. of course Lynda has a strong upper range, with a great 1st soprano. so that might have sparked interest as a differentiator to Cindy's softer 2nd soprano.

[sup_fan]

It was the Supreme's manager who contacted Geffen about using Jimmy as a producer.

You know, it is shocking that anybody was using Jimmy Webb as a producer at all at this point! Most of Jimmy's work could be charitably called hit or miss, and he was never a consistent hit maker. People don't understand that one of his signature songs, Up Up and Away for the 5th Dimension, didn't even go gold upon it's release--it only hit #7 on the Pop chart. Even Stoned Soul Picnic did better than that. Jimmy produced their Magic Garden LP in 1968 and it bombed, producing no hit songs at all. Jimmy's two singles from the magic Garden, Paper Cup and Carpet Man, barely scraped the top 40, while Webb completely ignored a sleeper hit on the album, The Worst That Could Happen. It became a hit the next year for Brooklyn Bridge, but not for Jimmy. In 1975, ABC records demanded that the 5th be reunited with Webb for Earthbound--and although I think Earthbound is the 5th's finest moment on record, it bombed completely, not even hitting the Hot 100 albums.

Beyond that, most of Jimmy's work flopped. Sunshower flopped, Supremes flopped, etc. Glenn Campbell had two hits on him, but then that fizzled. So why did people keep using him? I found his choice of outside songs really bizarre as well--who the hell needed to hear another take on Tossin' and Turnin'? Why was Cheap Loving included on the Supreme's record? It didn't fit IMO. Uhg. Jimmy had greatness in him but it never crystalized into anything consistently.

Jimmy had won multiple Grammy Awards, two in 67, two or three in 69. MacArthur Park was a huge song that everyone did a cover of. and while he might not have had huge hits himself, his work was very highly regarded. his album Words and Music was a critical smash, even if it wasn't a mega hit on the charts. his song Everybody Gets To Go To The Moon was featured in The French Connection which was a major movie in 71. his second album again was a critical smash but not a major seller.

so he was most definitely widely respected in the industry. In hindsight we can see that the commerciality of his work wasn't as strong as others. but this singer/songwriter genre was white hot in the early 70s. people like webb, carole king, james taylor and many others.

as we know, the sups had had a successful relaunch in 70 with Frank Wilson but after a glorious start, things petered out a bit. RO, Ladder and SL did amazing. but then NW failed to chart as it should, NJ only got to 16, Touch [[both lp and single) bombed, the duet albums bombed. So Smokey came in and they hit with a modest Floy Joy single but by not going Top 10 it wasn't a massive hit. Sunshine limped into the top 40, cindy was leaving and so the overall thought was probably "what the fuck do we do now?!?!?!"

so they rolled the dice and gambled. the idea of this incredibly popular style of music [[singer/songwriter) being paired with a historic group could have been magic. on paper it looked like it could have worked. maybe a different candidate would have been better - IMO the combo of Carole King and the Sups would have been stunning.

[bradsupremes]

It was the Supreme's manager who contacted Geffen about using Jimmy as a producer.

You know, it is shocking that anybody was using Jimmy Webb as a producer at all at this point! Most of Jimmy's work could be charitably called hit or miss, and he was never a consistent hit maker. People don't understand that one of his signature songs, Up Up and Away for the 5th Dimension, didn't even go gold upon it's release--it only hit #7 on the Pop chart. Even Stoned Soul Picnic did better than that. Jimmy produced their Magic Garden LP in 1968 and it bombed, producing no hit songs at all. Jimmy's two singles from the magic Garden, Paper Cup and Carpet Man, barely scraped the top 40, while Webb completely ignored a sleeper hit on the album, The Worst That Could Happen. It became a hit the next year for Brooklyn Bridge, but not for Jimmy. In 1975, ABC records demanded that the 5th be reunited with Webb for Earthbound--and although I think Earthbound is the 5th's finest moment on record, it bombed completely, not even hitting the Hot 100 albums.

Beyond that, most of Jimmy's work flopped. Sunshower flopped, Supremes flopped, etc. Glenn Campbell had two hits on him, but then that fizzled. So why did people keep using him? I found his choice of outside songs really bizarre as well--who the hell needed to hear another take on Tossin' and Turnin'? Why was Cheap Loving included on the Supreme's record? It didn't fit IMO. Uhg. Jimmy had greatness in him but it never crystalized into anything consistently.

I wouldn't call his work hit or miss and to say most of his work flopped or that his work was inconsistent is just untrue. It's not like he had a fluke major hit and then faded. He was on a hot streak in the late 60s and his song catalog was quite different and had a huge impact on many people. There was "Up, Up, And Away" which scored Grammys for Song of the Year, Record of the Year, Best Pop Performance by a Duo or Group, Best Performance by a Vocal Group, and Best Contemporary Song. But he was also hot with Glen Campbell - "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" [[which one two Grammys) "Wichita Lineman," and "Galveston." There was also "MacArthur Park" with Richard Harris which won him a Grammy for arranging. Harris' A Tramp Shining album which was written, produced, and arranged by Jimmy was nominated for Album of the Year at the Grammys in 1968 and was a chart success. Even the follow up album The Yard Went On Forever did quite well. All of this within a two year span so he was quite in demand as a producer and songwriter and heavily covered. None of the Motown songwriters/producers had this kind of award and critical success at the time. And yes, The Magic Garden and Sunshower flopped sales/chart wise but were critically acclaimed. It makes total sense that people wanted to work with him. If you were offered the opportunity to work with someone who had that kind of critical and award-nominated/winning success, would you turn it down?

His own singing career didn't take off because well, he's not a great singer, but he was doing what other singer-songwriters were doing at the time - Carole King, James Taylor, Laura Nyro. None of his own albums did much but he wrote and produced successful material for Art Garfunkel, The Highwaymen, Judy Collins' had a hit with "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" and then his work with Linda Ronstadt.

Now, I agree that his song selection and arrangement style and direction he decided for the Supremes was a total miscalculation and mistake, but it does him a great disservice to question why anyone would want to keep using him.

[BobbyC]

All I'm saying is that for every hit, Jimmy had dozens of flops. That is not how you make money in the biz. He was never consistent. I would have hired him to score a film or TV show, but I never would trust him producing any album. By 1972, he was considered old news. By 1974, when he was hired to produce Earthbound, he was ice cold. He was hired on the basis of up Up and Away, really, and the results speak for themselves. Earthbound didn't sound like anything on the radio at the time as LaMonte said in his memoirs. When you hire Jimmy Webb, you are going to get a Jimmy Webb record, not a 5th record produced by Webb. Jimmy had a vision, he always did, but these visions, for the most part, didn't sell.

[Boogiedown]

It was the Supreme's manager who contacted Geffen about using Jimmy as a producer.

You know, it is shocking that anybody was using Jimmy Webb as a producer at all at this point! Most of Jimmy's work could be charitably called hit or miss, and he was never a consistent hit maker. People don't understand that one of his signature songs, Up Up and Away for the 5th Dimension, didn't even go gold upon it's release--it only hit #7 on the Pop chart. Even Stoned Soul Picnic did better than that. Jimmy produced their Magic Garden LP in 1968 and it bombed, producing no hit songs at all. Jimmy's two singles from the magic Garden, Paper Cup and Carpet Man, barely scraped the top 40, while Webb completely ignored a sleeper hit on the album, The Worst That Could Happen. It became a hit the next year for Brooklyn Bridge, but not for Jimmy. In 1975, ABC records demanded that the 5th be reunited with Webb for Earthbound--and although I think Earthbound is the 5th's finest moment on record, it bombed completely, not even hitting the Hot 100 albums.

Beyond that, most of Jimmy's work flopped. Sunshower flopped, Supremes flopped, etc. Glenn Campbell had two hits on him, but then that fizzled. So why did people keep using him? I found his choice of outside songs really bizarre as well--who the hell needed to hear another take on Tossin' and Turnin'? Why was Cheap Loving included on the Supreme's record? It didn't fit IMO. Uhg. Jimmy had greatness in him but it never crystalized into anything consistently.

This is an interesting line of thinking. A topic that would be fun to focus on.
Brings to mind Paul Williams who would hit it big a couple of years then ...and then .just fizzle ...Kris Kristofferson [as a writer], another. It makes sense that one's creative insights have limitations. For a year or two you couldn't turn on the TV without seeing Marvin Hamlisch.

That one great movie that one great book ... wasn't GONE WITH THE WIND Margaret Mitchell's only writing??
Youth plays into this ....when the world is new, thoughts are first time, and juices are afire.


Heck even HDH only went so far after leaving Motown, then they nosedived .....

Having longevity is more the exception than the rule.

[sup_fan]

All I'm saying is that for every hit, Jimmy had dozens of flops. That is not how you make money in the biz. He was never consistent. I would have hired him to score a film or TV show, but I never would trust him producing any album. By 1972, he was considered old news. By 1974, when he was hired to produce Earthbound, he was ice cold. He was hired on the basis of up Up and Away, really, and the results speak for themselves. Earthbound didn't sound like anything on the radio at the time as LaMonte said in his memoirs. When you hire Jimmy Webb, you are going to get a Jimmy Webb record, not a 5th record produced by Webb. Jimmy had a vision, he always did, but these visions, for the most part, didn't sell.

not sure if you're just blatantly ignoring his track record or just personally dislike those tunes. for someone to win a slew of Grammy awards over two or three years is not a flop. Up Away might have been a big chart hit and one of the more enduring. but it isn't the only one. we're talking about 6 - 8 big hits. none of that indicates a flop or has been [[at that time) or a fluke or inconsistency. maybe by 74 and into the later 70s his star faded. The discussions with motown would have been initiated in 71 probably. most likely later in the year. so his latest Grammy awards for 1 year old. that's not a had-been.

he had produced a ton of stuff with 5D and they were an incredibly hot act. he might not have been solely responsible for their success but he was definitely key to it. and then he works with Glen Campbell and that is hugely successful. to the point where the guy gets his own tv show. Was every single thing he touched gold? no of course not. HDH didn't have gold records with every act they produced either.

again, if you take yourself back to that time and place, there are many logical reasons why this happened.

[jim aka jtigre99]

The Webb Album was a total misfire. He certainly failed since the Supremes were without Diana Ross since 1970 and not when he did this album. It didn't sound like the Supremes. It would have been okay if the group was covering his biggest hits like the Supremes sing Rogers & Hart. There were no Supremes on the dismal album cover.
Plus, the Supremes sound great together, if he needed a fuller sound than that was what he wanted and by saying they never sounded better was wrong. 2 or 3 people will never sound like the chorus effect he went for. Plus, he had Jean out of her range. He should have known that musically. She knew her own talent. She sounded extremely shrill and nasal in his musical arrangements. So, he dissed the Supremes and made Jean sound shrill-so apparently he may be a good songwriter but his producing and arranging of the Supremes was way off.
Plus, at this time the group had another line up change with Cindy being replaced by Lynda. The mass public was starting to see Jean and knew Mary and Cindy but with now another new face this sort of experiment was more harmful to the group. And Webb did not do well with the product he released. The mass public at this juncture was starting to not recognize the group and they certainly didn't recognize this sound. I can see why Motown didn't release a single from any of his product on this.

[BobbyC]

Sup_fan you are wrong. I happen to like a lot of Jimmy's stuff--did you not read where I said Earthbound was IMO the best record the 5th ever made? I am talking about facts. Jimmy Webb did not produce "a ton of stuff" on the 5th Dimension. He wrote and produced a few songs on Up Up and Away and after that did well, he was given the chance to produce a whole album, the Magic Garden. It bombed so badly that Jimmy just sort of wandered off into the ether. He never touched them again until 1974's Earthbound, which was the biggest failure in the 5th's career up until then and they were already on a losing streak.

[BobbyC]

Jim--I agree with everything you wrote. Jean sounded great when she was in her range, but other times she was basically screaming. Beyond Myself, anyone? You are saying what I was trying and failing to convey earlier Jimmy Webb makes Jimmy Webb records. Him bringing anonymous session singers shows that he was more about fulfilling the vision in his head, rather than making Mary, Lynda and Jean shine by themselves.

[Boogiedown]

Him bringing anonymous session singers shows that he was more about fulfilling the vision in his head, rather than making Mary, Lynda and Jean shine by themselves.

Excellent point. But then when they first met and Webb likely asked, " what is your vision for yourselves?" and they just shrugged ..... and Motown didn't really care and apparently stayed out of the picture ... well then it became his baby and the Supremes were just a tool in the equation ...

Jean sounded great when she was in her range, but other times she was basically screaming. Beyond Myself, anyone?

good gawd.....Webb has good reason to be defensive....maybe Jean's brother should have paid him that visit ....hee haw.


added:

this is probably the same thing various producers encountered with Diana in the eighties .....she shows up ...but now what??

[Boogiedown]

not sure if you're just blatantly ignoring his track record or just personally dislike those tunes. for someone to win a slew of Grammy awards over two or three years is not a flop. Up Away might have been a big chart hit and one of the more enduring. but it isn't the only one. we're talking about 6 - 8 big hits. none of that indicates a flop or has been [[at that time) or a fluke or inconsistency. maybe by 74 and into the later 70s his star faded. The discussions with motown would have been initiated in 71 probably. most likely later in the year. so his latest Grammy awards for 1 year old. that's not a had-been.

he had produced a ton of stuff with 5D and they were an incredibly hot act. he might not have been solely responsible for their success but he was definitely key to it. and then he works with Glen Campbell and that is hugely successful. to the point where the guy gets his own tv show. Was every single thing he touched gold? no of course not. HDH didn't have gold records with every act they produced either.

again, if you take yourself back to that time and place, there are many logical reasons why this happened.

I think this was a logical choice for The Supremes to choose Jimmy Webb .....especially in the eyes of Mary Wilson. The 5th Dimnesion were doing similar circuits and were a classy wholesome act ....more Vegas glam style ....which I believe Mary wanted to maintain for her Supremes. That's the image she wanted to maintain....wigs, jewelry, costumes and smiles ... [do today's singers smile???]

At this point they were no longer three kids from the same neighborhood ...they were now three singers with different backgrounds brought together purely for the sake of singing ....much like the 5D were. Since Webb could make them a cohesive unit ....then perhaps he could do this for the new Supremes.

[sup_fan]

I think this was a logical choice for The Supremes to choose Jimmy Webb .....especially in the eyes of Mary Wilson. The 5th Dimnesion were doing similar circuits and were a classy wholesome act ....more Vegas glam style ....which I believe Mary wanted to maintain for her Supremes. That's the image she wanted to maintain....wigs, jewelry, costumes and smiles ... [do today's singers smile???]

At this point they were no longer three kids from the same neighborhood ...they were now three singers with different backgrounds brought together purely for the sake of singing ....much like the 5D were. Since Webb could make them a cohesive unit ....then perhaps he could do this for the new Supremes.

i agree - i think the tried and true sups image was becoming more and more out of date by 72. the girls sort of half heartedly tried some new fashions with their stagewear but it really wasn't a success. Jean wasn't a fashion plate by any stretch of the imagination and so regardless of what she wore, she wasn't going to spark gasps and 'wow - did you see what she was wearing this time?!?!"

R&B music was so much more mainstream by this time and you have J and L with such amazing and powerful instruments. had the group embraced and evolved more into this, perhaps they could have had some more success. the folk and rock sound of JW, mixed with a more r&b sound could have been interesting and exciting. but as we've mentioned a zillion times, the whole execution of this project was a mess.

[Boogiedown]

Sup: the whole execution of this project was a mess.

was it emblomatic of where Motown itself was at the time?? It was imploding from every angle. I wonder if Jimmy was shocked at how little support from Motown came his way on this .....or was that by design ?

No in-house material for the songs ....no in-house musicians ... heck not even the Andantes ...was WEED recorded at Motown's studios?
The musicians mentioned include some [guitar, drums] that did very little in the industry beyond working directly through Jimmy Webb. They weren't studio regulars in the trade.

And Webb didn't have a significant history of producing entire albums [and nothing monumental]...under a handful with one being his own, so maybe it was biting off more than he could chew.
Motown should have kept an eye on it.
When they finally got their hands on his finished output ....they were shocked I'm guessing....and saw no way to recoup ....not finding even one Webb cut worthy to work as a single.
No liners notes on the jacket from anybody saying what a thrill and an honor, what a crowning achievement ...etc..

A nondescript release furnished to the record stores from the back door ...



Reading that Jean was not happy with how high Webb was making her sing, to the point of bringing in a desist note , surprised me. I had thought that it was her idea ... that it was a style she was trying to generate.
It also surprises me that Webb brings this up in an irritated way. He's not reflective at all about what could have been done to make this a success.

[sup_fan]

another point is motown was literally moving during this time period and setting up the LA offices. the chaos and upheaval that would have had on basic office activities had to be huge.

Bayou mentioned on FB that motown was NOT pleased with the idea of the Supremes bringing in an outside producer. apparently the girls and their manager pushed for this but it wasn't exactly an idea born in the staff at motown and so their cooperation and support for the project would have already been compromised. I wonder, if upon listening to the final mixes, motown too thought "this is a mess" and maybe only released it just to recoup some money for the studio costs. plus they didn't have any other material that i'm aware of to release. the album i think came out in the fall so they would have wanted something to be around for the holidays. although given their chart successes earlier in 70 and 71, i would have thought a 70s Greatest Hits album would have been a smarter release. you could have easily counted on holiday sales with something like that plus all of the tracks were already mixed and ready. just press it and design a quick cover.

he also has mentioned about how motown just did nothing to promote the album [[maybe a combo of the chaos of the move and a lack of excitement about the lp) and how Jean was NOT pleased with this turn of events. apparently she was quite vocal with the sales and PR team's lack of support but of course that only probably served to make them even less engaged

[Ollie9]

The album should have been canned, with some of the tracks unlistenable even today. One thing Jean definitely didn’t need was being encouraged to sing in a higher key.
I think most of the songs would have suited Lynda a lot better. Perhaps the album cover was a punishment.

[Boogiedown]

Perhaps the album cover was a punishment.

well it was nothing to sneeze about.

[daviddh]

Just a few points regarding the Supremes image ..
Did Diana change hers?? She was wearing gowns all the way through her career and built a career on it...she always been glam to me.
I think the issue is ,once again, the same issue that plagued the group since 1968.
Who decided to release this.???
Sorry but not every song they released after Reflections was great.
A few shining moments, love child,make you love me and someday we be together were classics but, the others were cheesey misfires.
In 1970, same thing, Ladder ,stoned and River Deep were hits but for every hit, there was a misfire.
Who was picking the singles by then.
I would have never issued Guess I'll Miss the Man as a single. Nice lead vocal. And the live version with Lynda and Mary singing harmony was nice but to syrupy for me.
The group was alienating the young record buying public.
Fact .kids 13 to 30 bought records.
If you appeal to them ,you sell. If not .your out.
The group was sounding old hat.
And then release this AC album. No harmony. Over the top backing vocals.
Just a huge disappointment that if I were at Motown , I would have never let this go.
I would have went with Promises Kept or Stevie production.
They needed to concentrate on singles by this time ,not albums.
When they got a hit .do an album.imo.
I would have pulled Life Beats, Stepping on A Dream. Or Remote Control.
And btw. Where did Frank Wilson go.
He returned in early 1973 for Love Train sessions. Some nice work with Frank .

[BobbyC]

I saw what you did there, Boogie!

[Ollie9]

well it was nothing to sneeze about.

It certainly got up my nose.

[sup_fan]

Just a few points regarding the Supremes image ..
Did Diana change hers?? She was wearing gowns all the way through her career and built a career on it...she always been glam to me.
I think the issue is ,once again, the same issue that plagued the group since 1968.
Who decided to release this.???
Sorry but not every song they released after Reflections was great.
A few shining moments, love child,make you love me and someday we be together were classics but, the others were cheesey misfires.
In 1970, same thing, Ladder ,stoned and River Deep were hits but for every hit, there was a misfire.
Who was picking the singles by then.
I would have never issued Guess I'll Miss the Man as a single. Nice lead vocal. And the live version with Lynda and Mary singing harmony was nice but to syrupy for me.
The group was alienating the young record buying public.
Fact .kids 13 to 30 bought records.
If you appeal to them ,you sell. If not .your out.
The group was sounding old hat.
And then release this AC album. No harmony. Over the top backing vocals.
Just a huge disappointment that if I were at Motown , I would have never let this go.
I would have went with Promises Kept or Stevie production.
They needed to concentrate on singles by this time ,not albums.
When they got a hit .do an album.imo.
I would have pulled Life Beats, Stepping on A Dream. Or Remote Control.
And btw. Where did Frank Wilson go.
He returned in early 1973 for Love Train sessions. Some nice work with Frank .

i think diana was able to continually update her image and yet still be recognized as "Diana Ross" I don't think anyone was looking for the Sups to go totally rogue and do something that would alienate their existing base.

with Diana, she first changed up her image with her solo debut. the music was quite a bit different from DRATS stuff. more of an edge, tougher more soulful material. Reach out and touch had that anthem-ish quality and played up her being this accessible, caring person. then with the movie, a new superstar image emerged. and the TMITM package with jazz influenced vocals. plus she was a new mother now.

then the look on Diana 76. totally glamorous but not a single sequin. then The Boss. the mane of hair, showing off plenty of chest and leg. and again, not 1 bugle bead or sequin. then comes diana 80. wet short hair, jeans, t shirt.

now Diana live on stage was much more by the book. bob mackie all the way. but she definitely changed up her look

[RanRan79]

I wonder, if upon listening to the final mixes, motown too thought "this is a mess" and maybe only released it just to recoup some money for the studio costs. plus they didn't have any other material that i'm aware of to release. the album i think came out in the fall so they would have wanted something to be around for the holidays. although given their chart successes earlier in 70 and 71, i would have thought a 70s Greatest Hits album would have been a smarter release.

I'm betting that's exactly why the album ended up in stores rather than shelved. Motown was hoping to somehow recoup the costs. That's why "I Guess I'll Miss the Man", neither written nor produced by Jimmy Webb, was added to the album and released as the single.

Seems like it would have made sense to try to milk some singles from it. The only one I think had a prayer of making any noise is "5:30 Plane", although it's possible "Cheap Lovin" might also have done something. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think "Cheap" might have been the better choice. Either way, I would have gone with both as singles and crossed my fingers.

The GH package for the end of 72 is intriguing.

Up the Ladder
Everybody's Got the Right To Love
Stoned Love
River Deep, Mountain High
Nathan Jones
Touch
You Gotta Have Love
Floy Joy
Automatically Sunshine
Your Wonderful Sweet, Sweet Love

Tack on "I Guess I'll Miss the Man", bill it as a new song on the album, along with an additional new song and there's a ready made 12 track greatest hits package that might have sold decently.