When David Ruffin Purposely Outperformed Diana Ross:

[ejluther]

Whenever I hear/consider stories about Diana’s behavior [[especially during the 60’s), I just try to remember that she had Berry egging her on, too; her natural all-consuming ambition and perfectionism coupled with his undoubtedly brash encouragement to shine at all costs is a potent combo for a young person…it’s really surprising in retrospect that she didn’t have more breakdowns/episodes as a result of the “Motown machine”. She’s one tough broad!

[Boogiedown]

Alright , so we're on to page three and maybe its time to get back to reviewing some of the claims made on this youtube presentation.

But first,
I've now watched this TV Supremes /Temptations performance enough that I just about know it inside and out , this after having never seen it before at the outset of this thread.
Which is something to remember . This performance was broadcast 'live'?? --- as a one-time event....the audience watched it fleetingly and moved on to spinning plates or whatever came next on the show.

imagine doing this live, talk about adrenaline rush!

Nowadays we can freeze frame it , back it up, replay it over and over to fully absorb it and better dissect it.

When doing so, I'm certainly able to appreciate it all the more. Diana Ross had a huge task here. She was like the ringleader of a three ring circus, she was the unifying part of eight people on stage for a long, action-packed, four-minute set. David Ruffin joins her.

Diana takes it all on from the very first note singing solo. And she is singing here three songs that are not even her own ....although you'd never know it as she pulls them off so seamlessly.
They also interject a non-song that's blended into I'M LOSIN' YOU that they should have recorded as a song/single in of its own called, "[YOU GOT TO ] FEEL IT". Excellent energy and sharing of the two groups vocally .

There is a lot going on here.. a packed stage to start with, several songs [five] to present and blend. There are multiple stages and heights with members moving off and on, with both solo and shared parts of singing and dancing.
As the ringleader, Diana Ross has every right to take a deep bow out front at the end. I sense in her not a gesture of "look at me", but more of a bow of satisfaction and pride that it all went so well....an "Alright, I did this!" bow.

I bet the control room was also taking a big bow at the end. Tight camera work with various close-ups and wide shots with a lot of activity to capture, all done flawlessly.

A+ does not seem too high a mark to give this performance... by all .....is there even one thing that misses the mark here ....

[Ollie9]

Alright , so we're on to page three and maybe its time to get back to reviewing some of the claims made on this youtube presentation.

But first,
I've now watched this TV Supremes /Temptations performance enough that I just about know it inside and out , this after having never seen it before at the outset of this thread.
Which is something to remember . This performance was broadcast 'live'?? --- as a one-time event....the audience watched it fleetingly and moved on to spinning plates or whatever came next on the show.

imagine doing this live, talk about adrenaline rush!

Nowadays we can freeze frame it , back it up, replay it over and over to fully absorb it and better dissect it.

When doing so, I'm certainly able to appreciate it all the more. Diana Ross had a huge task here. She was like the ringleader of a three ring circus, she was the unifying part of eight people on stage for a long, action-packed, four-minute set. David Ruffin joins her.

Diana takes it all on from the very first note singing solo. And she is singing here three songs that are not even her own ....although you'd never know it as she pulls them off so seamlessly.
They also interject a non-song that's blended into I'M LOSIN' YOU that they should have recorded as a song/single in of its own called, "[YOU GOT TO ] FEEL IT". Excellent energy and sharing of the two groups vocally .

There is a lot going on here.. a packed stage to start with, several songs [five] to present and blend. There are multiple stages and heights with members moving off and on, with both solo and shared parts of singing and dancing.
As the ringleader, Diana Ross has every right to take a deep bow out front at the end. I sense in her not a gesture of "look at me", but more of a bow of satisfaction and pride that it all went so well....an "Alright, I did this!" bow.

I bet the control room was also taking a big bow at the end. Tight camera work with various close-ups and wide shots with a lot of activity to capture, all done flawlessly.

A+ does not seem too high a mark to give this performance... by all .....is there even one thing that misses the mark here ....

Not altogether happy with the way Diana crushes Cindy’s fallen earring under her heels, but such is life.
One of the highlights for is Diana singing the lyric “As if someone else controls your very soul” on “[[I Know) I’m Losing You”

[sup_fan]

Whenever I hear/consider stories about Diana’s behavior [[especially during the 60’s), I just try to remember that she had Berry egging her on, too; her natural all-consuming ambition and perfectionism coupled with his undoubtedly brash encouragement to shine at all costs is a potent combo for a young person…it’s really surprising in retrospect that she didn’t have more breakdowns/episodes as a result of the “Motown machine”. She’s one tough broad!

it should also be remembered that she was only 25 when she LEFT the supremes. if each of us thinks backs to when we were in school or when we were young and in first jobs, there are probably scores of examples of dumb things we did. how we handled a situation, how we responded to someone, etc. and probably none of us were in situations as tumultuous or as stressful as what DMF and C were facing.

even mary had sort of revised her POV on things in Sup Faith. she said that upon reflection, a lot of the problems of the original group grew out of their age and trying to deal with things. and that many of the troubles weren't really Diana but motown. I wish she had maybe brought that perspective out in the Dreamgirl book a bit more.

[Boogiedown]

Not altogether happy with the way Diana crushes Cindy’s fallen earring under her heels, but such is life. yes by the time Diana was finished stomping it flat, all Cindy could do with it was make it into a belt buckle.
One of the highlights for is Diana singing the lyric “As if someone else controls your very soul” on “[[I Know) I’m Losing You” she does sing it as though from the heart

My brain is entertaining a new thought:

It might even be by design ..... that Diana is supposed to finish first and take the lead in the bow taking !!!

[Ollie9]

My brain is entertaining a new thought:

It might even be by design ..... that Diana is supposed to finish first and take the lead in the bow taking !!!

Very likely i would say. David seems to fade to background next to Diana’s extended arms and swooping bows. Is it possible the plan was for her to accept audience appreciation alone for the two groups?.

[Boogiedown]

Very likely i would say. David seems to fade to background next to Diana’s extended arms and swooping bows. Is it possible the plan was for her to accept audience appreciation alone for the two groups?.

Boy you and I have come a long way to arrive at this line of thinking Ollie!!...or should I say I certainly have anyway.

I was noticing if anything counters the breakneck rhythm of this performance, its the audience. The songs come and go so quickly, they seem unsure when to clap or if they should clap at all, making their responses come across as less than enthusiastic. .

I get a kick out of [half of] Ed Sullivan seen coming in and clapping[?] in the final shot, he's about just out of camera view from the performance ...I guess he's entering to chat with them right after [?]. Diana looks to him and without missing a beat, blows him a kiss.

[Ollie9]

Boy you and I have come a long way to arrive at this line of thinking Ollie!!...or should I say I certainly have anyway.
.

It’s been a rollercoaster ride of highs and lows, but the train has finally reached its destination.

[reese]

I get a kick out of [half of] Ed Sullivan seen coming in and clapping[?] in the final shot, he's about just out of camera view from the performance ...I guess he's entering to chat with them right after [?]. Diana looks to him and without missing a beat, blows him a kiss.

Ed didn't speak with the Supremes after this performance. Later in the show, they did GREENSLEEVES / THOU SWELL and Ed called them over for a VERY quick chat. I think he mentioned someone else who also sang that song, Diana said "Good, you like it?," laughed, and they walked offstage.

[ejluther]

it should also be remembered that she was only 25 when she LEFT the supremes. if each of us thinks backs to when we were in school or when we were young and in first jobs, there are probably scores of examples of dumb things we did. how we handled a situation, how we responded to someone, etc. and probably none of us were in situations as tumultuous or as stressful as what DMF and C were facing.

even mary had sort of revised her POV on things in Sup Faith. she said that upon reflection, a lot of the problems of the original group grew out of their age and trying to deal with things. and that many of the troubles weren't really Diana but motown. I wish she had maybe brought that perspective out in the Dreamgirl book a bit more.

Amen! I shudder to think what sort of stupid stuff I did before hitting 25 [[or, let’s face it…35! )

[lucky2012]

Alright , so we're on to page three and maybe its time to get back to reviewing some of the claims made on this youtube presentation.

But first,
I've now watched this TV Supremes /Temptations performance enough that I just about know it inside and out , this after having never seen it before at the outset of this thread.

Nowadays we can freeze frame it , back it up, replay it over and over to fully absorb it and better dissect it.

When doing so, I'm certainly able to appreciate it all the more. Diana Ross had a huge task here. She was like the ringleader of a three ring circus, she was the unifying part of eight people on stage for a long, action-packed, four-minute set. David Ruffin joins her.

Diana takes it all on from the very first note singing solo. And she is singing here three songs that are not even her own ....although you'd never know it as she pulls them off so seamlessly.
They also interject a non-song that's blended into I'M LOSIN' YOU that they should have recorded as a song/single in of its own called, "[YOU GOT TO ] FEEL IT". Excellent energy and sharing of the two groups vocally .

There is a lot going on here.. a packed stage to start with, several songs [five] to present and blend. There are multiple stages and heights with members moving off and on, with both solo and shared parts of singing and dancing.
As the ringleader, Diana Ross has every right to take a deep bow out front at the end. I sense in her not a gesture of "look at me", but more of a bow of satisfaction and pride that it all went so well....an "Alright, I did this!" bow.

I bet the control room was also taking a big bow at the end. Tight camera work with various close-ups and wide shots with a lot of activity to capture, all done flawlessly.

A+ does not seem too high a mark to give this performance... by all .....is there even one thing that misses the mark here ....

Good summation, Boogie. I loved seeing this performance again. I definitely give it an A, but an A+ doesn't seem too high. Neither the performance nor your summary misses any mark. I appreciate YouTube, if not always the YouTube posters, for what it brings to us, [and I definitely skip the comments sections].

[Boogiedown]

here's the performance:

LUCKY:
Good summation, Boogie. I loved seeing this performance again. I definitely give it an A, but an A+ doesn't seem too high. Neither the performance nor your summary misses any mark. I appreciate YouTube, if not always the YouTube posters, for what it brings to us, [and I definitely skip the comments sections].

How nice of you lucky! Thanks!

A solid "A" for sure.
IF
I'm seeking out any flaws , even the smallest, is it my imagination or does Diana slip just a bit at 2:03 when singing MY GUY ....sounds like an extra word is in there???


Cute moment @ 4:27 when Otis makes sure he's in the camera shot !

[Circa 1824]

One error in the performance - starting at 3:56 until 4:12 Diana is not on camera even though she is the real star and she is singing. I am not sure who made that decision, but Ruffin is not Ross in beauty nor star power. I was screaming to myself “show Diana.”

Likewise, when The Doors were on TV singing Touch Me, the camera focused on a horn player no one cared about rather than showing the great Jim Morrison grooving to the instrumental break. Stupid mistake by some bone-head. It was a missed opportunity for the world to have more of Morrison on film.

Likewise again, during interviews with big stars, why the hell is the camera on the interviewer at all? The audience only wants to see the star and their facial expressions when the questions are being asked. Barbara Walters and Oprah were the biggest egotists insisting they get equal camera time. Most interviewers today are also camera hogs.

[sup_fan]

One error in the performance - starting at 3:56 until 4:12 Diana is not on camera even though she is the real star and she is singing. I am not sure who made that decision, but Ruffin is not Ross in beauty nor star power. I was screaming to myself “show Diana.”

Likewise, when The Doors were on TV singing Touch Me, the camera focused on a horn player no one cared about rather than showing the great Jim Morrison grooving to the instrumental break. Stupid mistake by some bone-head. It was a missed opportunity for the world to have more of Morrison on film.

Likewise again, during interviews with big stars, why the hell is the camera on the interviewer at all? The audience only wants to see the star and their facial expressions when the questions are being asked. Barbara Walters and Oprah were the biggest egotists insisting they get equal camera time. Most interviewers today are also camera hogs.

i'm not 100% sure it's true but i have a hunch it would likely have been. in the movie Dreamgirls during the Heavy tv performance scene, the "berry gordy" figure is in the control room with the staff and helping direct the cameras and which shot to use. this wouldn't surprise me at all. hell - Randy tells a story of famed photographer Harry Langdon actually letting Berry use his camera!! that's a major breech of etiquette so if that could happen, i don't see any doubt in the idea that Berry would have been helping direct the action in the booth. and so having more camera time for diana, minimizing individual shots of others or just doing group shots when not on diana.

[Boogiedown]

circa: One error in the performance - starting at 3:56 until 4:12 Diana is not on camera even though she is the real star and she is singing. I am not sure who made that decision, but Ruffin is not Ross in beauty nor star power. I was screaming to myself “show Diana.”

Yes some of the camera shots maybe missed certain elements ....like how Diana and David were relating to each other as they co-sang , and yes at times she is singing off camera , but then there is a lot going on on stage and only one thing can be shown at a time. Overall the flow is very good I think and the important elements captured.

There are a couple of shots where Diana's dress seems awfully short.

Ed didn't speak with the Supremes after this performance. Later in the show, they did GREENSLEEVES / THOU SWELL and Ed called them over for a VERY quick chat. I think he mentioned someone else who also sang that song, Diana said "Good, you like it?," laughed, and they walked offstage.

whoa ! They did a second performance ???
As if this routine wasn't enough !!

Maybe David played it cool and held back until then and that's when he got his 'revenge'!!

[reese]

whoa ! They did a second performance ???
As if this routine wasn't enough !!

Maybe David played it cool and held back until then and that's when he got his 'revenge'!!

Each group did three performances during this episode, including the medley.

The Supremes also performed IN AND OUT OF LOVE and the previously mentioned GREENSLEEVES/THOU SWELL.

The Tempts also performed DON'T LOOK BACK and HELLO YOUNG LOVERS.

[Boogiedown]

Each group did three performances during this episode, including the medley.

The Supremes also performed IN AND OUT OF LOVE and the previously mentioned GREENSLEEVES/THOU SWELL.

The Tempts also performed DON'T LOOK BACK and HELLO YOUNG LOVERS.

okay !! so we've got more to add to this saga !


Temptations sing:

HELLO YOUNG LOVERS:



DON'T LOOK BACK:

[Boogiedown]

Each group did three performances during this episode, including the medley.

The Supremes also performed IN AND OUT OF LOVE and the previously mentioned GREENSLEEVES/THOU SWELL.

The Tempts also performed DON'T LOOK BACK and HELLO YOUNG LOVERS.

GREENSLEEVES/THOU SWELL



IN AND OUT OF LOVE

[ejluther]

One error in the performance - starting at 3:56 until 4:12 Diana is not on camera even though she is the real star and she is singing. I am not sure who made that decision, but Ruffin is not Ross in beauty nor star power. I was screaming to myself “show Diana.”

Likewise, when The Doors were on TV singing Touch Me, the camera focused on a horn player no one cared about rather than showing the great Jim Morrison grooving to the instrumental break. Stupid mistake by some bone-head. It was a missed opportunity for the world to have more of Morrison on film.

Likewise again, during interviews with big stars, why the hell is the camera on the interviewer at all? The audience only wants to see the star and their facial expressions when the questions are being asked. Barbara Walters and Oprah were the biggest egotists insisting they get equal camera time. Most interviewers today are also camera hogs.

Often times the shot cuts to the interviewer because they’ve made an edit to the subject’s responses and the cutaway to the interviewer hides the cut - it’s not always because the interviewer is a “camera hog”.

[marybrewster]

it should also be remembered that she was only 25 when she LEFT the supremes. if each of us thinks backs to when we were in school or when we were young and in first jobs, there are probably scores of examples of dumb things we did. how we handled a situation, how we responded to someone, etc. and probably none of us were in situations as tumultuous or as stressful as what DMF and C were facing.

even mary had sort of revised her POV on things in Sup Faith. she said that upon reflection, a lot of the problems of the original group grew out of their age and trying to deal with things. and that many of the troubles weren't really Diana but motown. I wish she had maybe brought that perspective out in the Dreamgirl book a bit more.

At 25, I was working at Holiday Inn, and didn't have the CEO willing to bet the entire company on my success.

[Boogiedown]

okay !! so we've got more to add to this saga !


Temptations sing:

HELLO YOUNG LOVERS:


[/video]

Hmmm are there two young lovers in this routine ....

[DWSheffer]

Reese, I just picked up the below original photo last week and believe it's the one you are referencing in the middle of the thread. I wanted it because it's a rare period photo with Maurice King in the background, there are hardly any out there with him "doing his thing". I'd seen the second photo below with the Tempts rehearsing with King and Fuqua, but was unaware it was from the Sullivan appearance until I discovered the photo that included Cindy and Mary to the side in the dresses they wore during the performance.
Darin

[stingbeelee]

Is that Harvey Fuqua in the white sweatshirt/sweater with the Temptations? It looks like in the second photo that he's actually singing with them.

[lockhartgary]

Is that Harvey Fuqua in the white sweatshirt/sweater with the Temptations? It looks like in the second photo that he's actually singing with them.

If I mouse over the photos the file name says TEMPS KING FUQUA.

[TheMotownManiac]

According to Mary in DREAMGIRL, after the girls' Forest Hills date, she hung around NY for a few days. At her hotel, she received a telegram from the Tempts urging her to stick by Flo, as she could be next. She places this as early August of '67. [I think the Forest Hills date was July 29.]

In his book, Otis confirmed that Melvin sent Mary such a telegram.

I wish she would’ve listened to them.. Of course, it’s not her fault, but I will always wonder what would’ve happened if she had stood up for Florence and bagged or demanded that Florence get a month or two or three off just to get herself together and see what happens. It was almost 60 years ago and I’m still not OK with how it went down.

[sup_fan]

I wish she would’ve listened to them.. Of course, it’s not her fault, but I will always wonder what would’ve happened if she had stood up for Florence and bagged or demanded that Florence get a month or two or three off just to get herself together and see what happens. It was almost 60 years ago and I’m still not OK with how it went down.

mary knew a lot more about the problems within the group than Otis or Melvin did. while i think the guys meant well, they certainly weren't involved in the day to day happenings of the group or the problems that had been festering for years. by the time of Flo's final dismissal, everyone in the Sups org knew it was time. perhaps there were other actions that could have been taken a year or so prior that might have helped but as we've all discussed, Flo's personal demons were a major problem for her and those aren't things that can be overcome by having Mary "stick by flo" Mary was a 22 year old and not a trained, clinical psychologist.

also mary wasn't really positioning herself at this time as leader of the group [[even behind the scenes) or attempting to really involve herself in the group management. Diana sort of alludes to this and even mary has acknowledged it. she was thrilled to be doing what she was going, loved performing for the audiences and singing. i'm not saying she was being lazy or whatever. just that she was, at that time, satisfied with where she was at. it doesn't appear that she was actively working at "what was next" for the group like B and D were doing or as mary would do in the 70s.