When David Ruffin Purposely Outperformed Diana Ross:

[Boogiedown]

Watching this stuff about David Ruffin and found what is said @ 9:20 interesting:



here's the performance:



Hee Haw! At the end Diana has given up and is taking her bows and David is still singing!

[Albator]

In any case, he didn't do very well, because he's very much forgotten.

[Ollie9]

Considering Diana insisted David sing in a key he wasn’t comfortable with, he’s still the vocalist that impresses the most during this performance.
I hate the way Diana stands so far out in front of the other performers at the end. One could certainly never accuse her of having a group mentality that’s for sure lol.

[Boogiedown]

Considering Diana insisted David sing in a key he wasn’t comfortable with, he’s still the vocalist that impresses the most during this performance.
I hate the way Diana stands so far out in front of the other performers at the end. One could certainly never accuse her of having a group mentality that’s for sure lol.

Good observation. Shes in front of David such that her arm extends in front of him. He never does that to her ...that we see...

hey, who's holding that fake Diana Ross high note at the end when she's already taken the microphone away from her mouth??

[RanRan79]

In any case, he didn't do very well, because he's very much forgotten.

What planet do you live on where David Ruffin is forgotten? Lol

[RanRan79]

Considering Diana insisted David sing in a key he wasn’t comfortable with, he’s still the vocalist that impresses the most during this performance.
I hate the way Diana stands so far out in front of the other performers at the end. One could certainly never accuse her of having a group mentality that’s for sure lol.

I've seen this claim before, that David "out sang" Diana. No doubt, he killed "I Know I'm Losing You" [[this performance and the studio recording, which is one of my all time favorite Tempts cuts), but I find that Diana kept up with him. David hit some notes that sent everyone into a frenzy. Diana was incapable of doing that. But when it came to the rest of the song, note for note, Diana was holding her own. She sounds fantastic.

One of the shames of David leaving the Tempts when he did is that we didn't get -what I would like to think would have been a treat- David and Diana duetting on the duet material.

[sup_fan]

i've not really heard much in the past of David Ruffin and Diana Ross hooking up. of course i wasn't there lol. i thought she was more associated with Eddie Kendricks. But whatever. most of motown was hopping from one bed to another.

as for the duet on Sullivan, it certainly doesn't sound like David is singing outside of his normal keys. if you listen to this and then listen to I Wish It Would Rain, I'm Losing You, My Girl or any of his big songs, it seems to be in the same general range. most producers tried to push singers into higher keys than they're normally comfortable with because it makes them push and strain for notes which adds an element of emotion and excitement. It's possible that this wasn't the original key of the medley but the change clearly had no impact on David or Eddie.

[sup_fan]

I've seen this claim before, that David "out sang" Diana. No doubt, he killed "I Know I'm Losing You" [[this performance and the studio recording, which is one of my all time favorite Tempts cuts), but I find that Diana kept up with him. David hit some notes that sent everyone into a frenzy. Diana was incapable of doing that. But when it came to the rest of the song, note for note, Diana was holding her own. She sounds fantastic.

One of the shames of David leaving the Tempts when he did is that we didn't get -what I would like to think would have been a treat- David and Diana duetting on the duet material.

exactly. Ruffin performed like he always performed - very exciting, hitting high notes. and as he should - they're using his song for the finale and he had had years performing it.
Eddie is the one that frankly comes off the least exciting.

[sup_fan]

Good observation. Shes in front of David such that her arm extends in front of him. He never does that to her ...that we see...

hey, who's holding that fake Diana Ross high note at the end when she's already taken the microphone away from her mouth??

my guess is that the track was pre recorded in the studio and then the leads sang live on stage. so the high note could easily just be longer on the tape. i would guess it's a combo of Cindy and then Eddie doing a falsetto. i don't know that they would bother bringing in studio vocalists to fill in.

[lucky2012]

I've seen this claim before, that David "out sang" Diana. No doubt, he killed "I Know I'm Losing You" [[this performance and the studio recording, which is one of my all time favorite Tempts cuts), but I find that Diana kept up with him. David hit some notes that sent everyone into a frenzy. Diana was incapable of doing that. But when it came to the rest of the song, note for note, Diana was holding her own. She sounds fantastic.

She sounds great to me, too. Who "outsang" who, or sings "better" or is preferable or more appealing is surely subjective. Ed Sullivan's wide national audience made their own judgements, or simply enjoyed the coming together of two iconic popular groups.

One of the shames of David leaving the Tempts when he did is that we didn't get -what I would like to think would have been a treat- David and Diana duetting on the duet material.

Yeah, I've wondered about this, too. [My favorite Supremes/Tempts tracks are Try It Baby with Diana, Melvin & Paul and Why Must We Fall In Love with Diana & Eddie].

[daviddh]

i have always enjoyed this performance minus Diana stepping out in front of the rest of the others. tacky to me.
ive never understood this crazy nonsense.
it is a Tempt song so they should do it they way the Temps always do it.

[Ollie9]

I've seen this claim before, that David "out sang" Diana. No doubt, he killed "I Know I'm Losing You" [[this performance and the studio recording, which is one of my all time favorite Tempts cuts), but I find that Diana kept up with him. David hit some notes that sent everyone into a frenzy. Diana was incapable of doing that. But when it came to the rest of the song, note for note, Diana was holding her own. She sounds fantastic.

One of the shames of David leaving the Tempts when he did is that we didn't get -what I would like to think would have been a treat- David and Diana duetting on the duet material.

Diana is fine, but i still think David is the standout. You have to remember he was made to sing in a key that was comfortable for Diana not himself. The fact he sounded this good in the wrong key, it’s perhaps just as well.

[Boogiedown]

my guess is that the track was pre recorded in the studio and then the leads sang live on stage. so the high note could easily just be longer on the tape. i would guess it's a combo of Cindy and then Eddie doing a falsetto. i don't know that they would bother bringing in studio vocalists to fill in.

Frankly I think they have live mics and are mime- "singing" so that they can occasionally be heard , but its over a more prominent pre-recorded track of all of them.

I could hear Diana doing I'm LOSING YOU as a hit instead of the Temptations. She sings it fine, the storyline fits her....there's an awkward timing moment when she stretches the line by saying, the presence of another 'woman' ...instead of 'man'....which lyrically could've been fixed to suit the line's meter were it a Supremes song.

When Diana holds her hand up and does the higher hooting at 3:10, to me she's miming Mary's voice [any in-house Supremes voice experts agree/disagree?]

[reese]

I always liked this performance and never felt that David outsang Diana but that's in the ears of the listener, I guess.

From what was written in Otis Williams' book, Diana thought the key was too low for her and complained to Berry and he ordered the track be redone in a higher key for her but it was not as comfortable for David. In the meantime, Diana devoted extra time to rehearsing her parts so she was in great form by showtime.

There are actually some photos of the groups in their costumes recording the backing vocals so I gather the turnaround time was quick.

[reese]

Frankly I think they have live mics and are mime- "singing" so that they can occasionally be heard , but its over a more prominent pre-recorded track of all of them.

I could hear Diana doing I'm LOSING YOU as a hit instead of the Temptations. She sings it fine, the storyline fits her....there's an awkward timing moment when she stretches the line by saying, the presence of another 'woman' ...instead of 'man'...which lyrically could've been fixed.

When Diana holds her hand up and does the higher hooting at 3:10, to me she's miming Mary's voice [any in-house Supremes voice experts agree/disagree?]

I think only the leads have live mics. If you notice, you can see Eddie give David the mike back right before they start I'M LOSING YOU.

Re Diana's high note, I think that is indeed her doing it. She didn't pull out such high notes often but there are times she did, like on THE BOSS or near the end of GIVE UP from the "diana" album.

[Boogiedown]

I think only the leads have live mics. If you notice, you can see Eddie give David the mike back right before they start I'M LOSING YOU.

Re Diana's high note, I think that is indeed her doing it. She didn't pull out such high notes often but there are times she did, like on THE BOSS or near the end of GIVE UP from the "diana" album.

ok you are likely right , but if you notice at the end of MY GUY around 2:10 some mystery voice sings at a higher voice 'my guy' of which none of the girls claim as their own ....


[I knew we could find a way to get The Andantes in here]

[reese]

ok you are likely right , but if you notice at the end of MY GUY around 2:10 some mystery voice sings at a higher voice 'my guy' of which none of the girls claim as their own ....


[I knew we could find a way to get The Andantes in here]

That's Cindy. She moves her head when she sings it.

[midnightman]

In any case, he didn't do very well, because he's very much forgotten.

David Eli Ruffin FORGOTTEN? 1989 Rock & Roll Hall of Famer with the Tempts David Ruffin? LOL

[jobeterob]

They all sang their butts off teaming to make Motown’s television debut memorable and legendary

It’s just like a hockey or football or basketball team - there may be a leader but everybody works together to come up with the win

To come up with more conspiracy theories and wild suggestions damages the Motown legacy. Berry would have castrated any of them that screwed around with this occasion.

And they all did one heck of a good job.

Think of it - there’s a world out there that doesn’t know Diana let alone David or Melvin. But there are lots of people that do.

Apparently that’s why we are here.

[Ollie9]

To come up with more conspiracy theories and wild suggestions damages the Motown legacy.

It’s been well documented that Diana insisted on the key change. I don’t see that as a conspiracy theory or wild suggestion at all.
Diana was always very competitive, so this fits perfectly with something she would do. To some degree i don’t blame her for her actions. She had BG at her beck and call, so why not use that clout to improve your own performance.
As it stands, i think they all did a great job in creating a memorable performance.

[jobucats]

My comment is not meant to indict; however, I see that we, as listeners and viewers, tend to process music entertainment differently. Some of us experience performances, whether they be visual or aural, as 'contests' and 'who did it better', and some of us savor them as aesthetic musical experiences.
With that said, I viewed the Diana/David segment as being two performers who were giving it their all in entertaining us while at the same time, they were celebrating how far they, as individuals and as members of the groups, had come in a period of less than 3 years. In my mind, at the time and even revisiting it, I didn't view it as they were competing with each other.
One major change I would have made if I were directing this would be in not positioning Diana out front visually during basically the whole performance.

[Ollie9]

My comment is not meant to indict; however, I see that we, as listeners and viewers, tend to process music entertainment differently. Some of us experience performances, whether they be visual or aural, as 'contests' and 'who did it better', and some of us savor them as aesthetic musical experiences.
With that said, I viewed the Diana/David segment as being two performers who were giving it their all in entertaining us while at the same time, they were celebrating how far they, as individuals and as members of the groups, had come in a period of less than 3 years. In my mind, at the time and even revisiting it, I didn't view it as they were competing with each other.
One major change I would have made if I were directing this would be in not positioning Diana out front visually during basically the whole performance.

It’s common practice in any review, be it concert or tv show that if a particular performer is seen as doing exceptionally well they are singled out for special praise. This would apply to Diana as much as anyone.
It’s not a question of continually seeing each performance as a contest, but rather a general appraisal of what you are seeing and hearing.

[RanRan79]

It’s been well documented that Diana insisted on the key change. I don’t see that as a conspiracy theory or wild suggestion at all.
Diana was always very competitive, so this fits perfectly with something she would do. To some degree i don’t blame her for her actions. She had BG at her beck and call, so why not use that clout to improve your own performance.
As it stands, i think they all did a great job in creating a memorable performance.

If Diana did this, I don't see fault with her. What singer wouldn't complain about the key of a song if it's not in their comfort zone? I think the way the story has been framed is one that cast Diana as someone intentionally trying to sabotage David in her favor. As competitive as Diana has always been, I still don't see her going to that extreme, not at this point. If in fact David felt the new key wasn't comfortable for him, I would think the real issue would be with the arranger. Wouldn't it be the arranger's job to figure out the sweet spot between the two singers so that they're each more comfortable with the key?

[RanRan79]

It’s common practice in any review, be it concert or tv show that if a particular performer is seen as doing exceptionally well they are singled out for special praise. This would apply to Diana as much as anyone.
It’s not a question of continually seeing each performance as a contest, but rather a general appraisal of what you are seeing and hearing.

I agree with you, but I also agree with Jobucats. There does seem to be a lot of people who view this stuff as a competition rather than just enjoying the performance for what it is. I really hate to read comments on a Patti Labelle video when she's singing with other people. It's like hardly anyone seems to enjoy the entire performance for what it was. Instead it becomes a competition about Patti singing everyone else off the stage. God forbid she's up there with anyone capable of matching her power. The commenters really go insane arguing who was the best. One of the reasons I do enjoy Soulful Detroit is that, while we certainly have some who view it all as competition, we're able to chat about it in a real music loving way. A lot of other folks come across to me as people who don't really love music but enjoy the argument of it all, which is insane to me.

[marybrewster]

Purposely is such a crock. Let's be real, David Ruffin could sing rings around Diana Ross. So an artist should tone it back for another artist that doesn't have the same ability? It's it because it's Diana Ross? Because you never, not ever, saw Aretha ONCE comprise her performances. Watch Divas Live; she pisses all over that stage, and leaves the divas in her wave.

[RanRan79]

Purposely is such a crock. Let's be real, David Ruffin could sing rings around Diana Ross. So an artist should tone it back for another artist that doesn't have the same ability? It's it because it's Diana Ross? Because you never, not ever, saw Aretha ONCE comprise her performances. Watch Divas Live; she pisses all over that stage, and leaves the divas in her wave.

There are instances where Aretha does hold back. The duet with Dionne on Solid Gold immediately comes to mind. The Queen was definitely holding back, I suppose out of respect for Dionne since they were singing Dionne's song. [[Although Dionne was perfectly capable of keeping up with Aretha.) I don't see that as compromising a performance. Duets should never be competitions. When it comes to this one between Diana and David, I think they both brought their A game. David did what David did best and it was electrifying.

[Ollie9]

If Diana did this, I don't see fault with her. What singer wouldn't complain about the key of a song if it's not in their comfort zone? I think the way the story has been framed is one that cast Diana as someone intentionally trying to sabotage David in her favor. As competitive as Diana has always been, I still don't see her going to that extreme, not at this point. If in fact David felt the new key wasn't comfortable for him, I would think the real issue would be with the arranger. Wouldn't it be the arranger's job to figure out the sweet spot between the two singers so that they're each more comfortable with the key?

As mentioned, i don’t really blame Diana at all. Do i think she intentionally set out to sabotage David’s performance depends on just much David was meant to be outshining her. This being the woman who had Gladys Knight & The Pips sent home when the opening act was getting just a little bit to much love from the audience.
Self preservation being the name of the game.

,

[Circa 1824]

I watched the original show on tv and was mesmerized by these two groups together. However, all I really saw was Diana. The other 7 were mere window dressing in my eyes. So, NO, David did not outshine Ross. The reverse was true for me.

Watching it now, Diana still outshines everyone. I chuckle a bit at the end when Mary takes a deep bow for doing very little.

[Boogiedown]

To come up with more conspiracy theories and wild suggestions damages the Motown legacy.

Berry would have castrated any of them that screwed around with this occasion*.

If you're chewing my ass Rob, to be clear, I did not create the youtube feature now being discussed......
I doubt seriously though that anyone reading this supposed revelation is walking away from it with the notion of "Oh dear, Ruffin tried to put Miss Ross in her place? That does it, I'm through with anything Motown."

To summerize what the poster claims: when Ruffin was at The Ed Sullivan theatre, he witnessed Diana parading around being demanding and being horrible to her underlings, The Supremes. He found it outrageous and talked to Mary about it, which in doing so apparently angered him even more. Then he found out that Diana had changed his song to better suite her voice and that took him over the top. And he vowed to get even on stage. All this is what the youtuber claims without giving sources [reese??].

I didn't know any of this but I can now watch the performance and see that Diana does excellently throughout this ....until David arrives and it appears she can't keep up as David sings at her and then Diana literally gives up , dropping her mic, before her recorded voice is through playing over her, taking her bows first and stepping forward as if to retake control of the situation.

Part of what is complicating this is my belief that the whole thing is prerecorded ...so there's little room for spontaneity or on stage gymnastics by either of them. So there are no surprises happening.... apparently it was intentional that David out-sing her in the end with Diana mostly standing there and being sung at.



*There's more about your point which is being asserted here in this video .......

[daviddh]

Personally ,I would have preferred more of this on GIT rather than the Broadway mess we got.

[sup_fan]

If you're chewing my ass Rob, to be clear, I did not create the youtube feature now being discussed......
I doubt seriously though that anyone reading this supposed revelation is walking away from it with the notion of "Oh dear, Ruffin tried to put Miss Ross in her place? That does it, I'm through with anything Motown."

To summerize what the poster claims: when Ruffin was at The Ed Sullivan theatre, he witnessed Diana parading around being demanding and being horrible to her underlings, The Supremes. He found it outrageous and talked to Mary about it, which in doing so apparently angered him even more. Then he found out that Diana had changed his song to better suite her voice and that took him over the top. And he vowed to get even on stage. All this is what the youtuber claims without giving sources [reese??].

I didn't know any of this but I can now watch the performance and see that Diana does excellently throughout this ....until David arrives and it appears she can't keep up as David sings at her and then Diana literally gives up , dropping her mic, before her recorded voice is through playing over her, taking her bows first and stepping forward as if to retake control of the situation.

Part of what is complicating this is my belief that the whole thing is prerecorded ...so there's little room for spontaneity or on stage gymnastics by either of them. So there are no surprises happening.... apparently it was intentional that David out-sing her in the end with Diana mostly standing there and being sung at.



*There's more about your point which is being asserted here in this video .......

Ruffin could hardly have held much ground with judging people on poor behavior. he was one of the key leads of the Temps but his behavior was so bad they kicked him out.

[sup_fan]

Personally ,I would have preferred more of this on GIT rather than the Broadway mess we got.

i agree. the real downfall of GIT was the inane skits - but those were all the rage at the time. Laugh In, Smother Brothers, various tv specials. also the Fiddler Medley is truly atrocious - one of the worse things the temps ever recorded. they're so out of tune is ghastly

i always thought maybe for Special #2 they could do something kind of like what Diana eventually did with RHRAB. sort of a history of black music - gospel and spirituals, to jazz, to black musicals like porgy and bess and cabin in the sky, to doo wop, to motown.

[Boogiedown]

reese: That's Cindy. She moves her head when she sings it.

On further review , I agree... the heard vocal is assigned to her [without a microphone.]

Ruffin could hardly have held much ground with judging people on poor behavior. he was one of the key leads of the Temps but his behavior was so bad they kicked him out.

well its funny you should say that .....as I mentioned, this video addresses that.
To cut to the chase: his emboldened behavior was all Diana's fault!

[jobeterob]

If you're chewing my ass Rob, to be clear, I did not create the youtube feature now being discussed......
I doubt seriously though that anyone reading this supposed revelation is walking away from it with the notion of "Oh dear, Ruffin tried to put Miss Ross in her place? That does it, I'm through with anything Motown."

To summerize what the poster claims: when Ruffin was at The Ed Sullivan theatre, he witnessed Diana parading around being demanding and being horrible to her underlings, The Supremes. He found it outrageous and talked to Mary about it, which in doing so apparently angered him even more. Then he found out that Diana had changed his song to better suite her voice and that took him over the top. And he vowed to get even on stage. All this is what the youtuber claims without giving sources [reese??].

I didn't know any of this but I can now watch the performance and see that Diana does excellently throughout this ....until David arrives and it appears she can't keep up as David sings at her and then Diana literally gives up , dropping her mic, before her recorded voice is through playing over her, taking her bows first and stepping forward as if to retake control of the situation.

Part of what is complicating this is my belief that the whole thing is prerecorded ...so there's little room for spontaneity or on stage gymnastics by either of them. So there are no surprises happening.... apparently it was intentional that David out-sing her in the end with Diana mostly standing there and being sung at.



*There's more about your point which is being asserted here in this video .......

Boogie, sorry, I definitely wasn't chewing your ass.

After I wrote the post, I looked to see who posted and was concerned it might have sounded like I was complaining about it. That didn't occur to me.

I am currently feeling that generally, fans complain too much - they delve and parse too much and more is made of any incident than should be.

People that are more knowledgeable than the fans, people who were actually involved, often downplay the sensational aspects that so much is made of. Both Mary Wilson and Randy Tarraborelli have acknowledged they have to "crank" things up a little to sell their initial books.

So much is made of various background singers contributing to songs from Run Run Run to Someday We'll Be Together; Motown did nothing that wasn't done by every other record company.

My post was just a general comment on how fans occasionally read too much into events - probably because there's nothing else to talk about - no new releases, no concerts, etc.

But I definitely was not taking a poke at you. My apologies for that.

[Boogiedown]

Boogie, sorry, I definitely wasn't chewing your ass.

After I wrote the post, I looked to see who posted and was concerned it might have sounded like I was complaining about it. That didn't occur to me.

I am currently feeling that generally, fans complain too much - they delve and parse too much and more is made of any incident than should be.

People that are more knowledgeable than the fans, people who were actually involved, often downplay the sensational aspects that so much is made of. Both Mary Wilson and Randy Tarraborelli have acknowledged they have to "crank" things up a little to sell their initial books.

So much is made of various background singers contributing to songs from Run Run Run to Someday We'll Be Together; Motown did nothing that wasn't done by every other record company.

My post was just a general comment on how fans occasionally read too much into events - probably because there's nothing else to talk about - no new releases, no concerts, etc.

But I definitely was not taking a poke at you. My apologies for that.

Rob, although its nice of you , please don't apologize. everything is very cool between you and me. we can all have different opinions and different viewpoints , that's what makes the world go round and makes sites like this interesting. Even if you had been taking a poke at me .. you're entitled and it ain't nothin' I can't handle ...and if today we agree and tomorrow we don't, its all good, "ain't nothin' but a house party" to quote whoever !

cheers!


added: To your points , I read [here] occasionally that Gladys Knight is supposedly this moody difficult unhappy nasty person .....with very flimsy and sparse examples to support that assertion ....

[Ollie9]

From what was written in Otis Williams' book, Diana thought the key was too low for her and complained to Berry and he ordered the track be redone in a higher key for her but it was not as comfortable for David. In the meantime, Diana devoted extra time to rehearsing her parts so she was in great form by showtime.

Unless one of us was actually there or Otis is lying those are the facts as we know them. As such, i really see no reason why this should not be open to discussion.
If some prefer David’s performance over Diana’s or vice versa it really is no big deal. The same for those who find both performances equally as good. It simply boils down to personal preference and should not be labelled as judgemental criticism by anyone.

[ejluther]

I've seen this claim before, that David "out sang" Diana. No doubt, he killed "I Know I'm Losing You" [[this performance and the studio recording, which is one of my all time favorite Tempts cuts), but I find that Diana kept up with him. David hit some notes that sent everyone into a frenzy. Diana was incapable of doing that. But when it came to the rest of the song, note for note, Diana was holding her own. She sounds fantastic.

One of the shames of David leaving the Tempts when he did is that we didn't get -what I would like to think would have been a treat- David and Diana duetting on the duet material.

I totally agree - she’s great here and, frankly, the competition probably only makes her better!

[Boogiedown]

Unless one of us was actually there or Otis is lying those are the facts as we know them. As such, i really see no reason why this should not be open to discussion.
If some prefer David’s performance over Diana’s or vice versa it really is no big deal. The same for those who find both performances equally as good. It simply boils down to personal preference and should not be labelled as judgemental criticism by anyone.

I would add that [imo] Diana's actions were not intended to undermine David's performance, just rather it was done to most benefit hers. What angered David is that all this was initiated by her and then carried out through Berry Gordy without any consultation with him. He had zero input and was not even a consideration.

[daviddh]

i agree. the real downfall of GIT was the inane skits - but those were all the rage at the time. Laugh In, Smother Brothers, various tv specials. also the Fiddler Medley is truly atrocious - one of the worse things the temps ever recorded. they're so out of tune is ghastly.

funny i liked Laugh In but not GIT. well anyway ,the soundtrack is a mess to me.
but i agree that a tribute to

i always thought maybe for Special #2 they could do something kind of like what Diana eventually did with RHRAB. sort of a history of black music - gospel and spirituals, to jazz, to black musicals like porgy and bess and cabin in the sky, to doo wop, to motown.

i acually like your idea about the red hot and blue kind of show. that would have been great.imo

[jobeterob]

Rob, although its nice of you , please don't apologize. everything is very cool between you and me. we can all have different opinions and different viewpoints , that's what makes the world go round and makes sites like this interesting. Even if you had been taking a poke at me .. you're entitled and it ain't nothin' I can't handle ...and if today we agree and tomorrow we don't, its all good, "ain't nothin' but a house party" to quote whoever !

cheers!


added: To your points , I read [here] occasionally that Gladys Knight is supposedly this moody difficult unhappy nasty person .....with very flimsy and sparse examples to support that assertion ....

A gentleman! You’d be a great hockey player

Was it you who said that the version of I’m Losing You by the Temptations on the TCB Soundtrack is the best version of that song by far. I agree with that one and have felt that way since 1968.

[Ollie9]

I would add that [imo] Diana's actions were not intended to undermine David's performance, just rather it was done to most benefit hers. What angered David is that all this was initiated by her and then carried out through Berry Gordy without any consultation with him. He had zero input and was not even a consideration.

That being the most likely scenario Boog, but one isn’t supposed to mention that lol.
It would have been interesting to see just where this thread might have gone had it been Mary making the demands. Hmmm.
As it stands, it remains an iconic and timeless performance from two of the worlds super groups.

[1382hitsville]

I totally agree - she’s great here and, frankly, the competition probably only makes her better!

Mr Gordy’s theme: “competition breeds champions”

[[“But do t forget about love”)

[Boogiedown]

So I'M LOSING YOU :

seems an odd choice of a song for those two to share .....its hardly a coupling song expressing endearment.
Right away the match up suffers because of what they are saying to each other.

Not sure why they are all singing and partying to the inserted "feel it, you got to feel it" which doesn't fit with the song's anguish at all....
OK I''ll say it ...a bizarre
song choice to stomp around and smile at each other to.

[BobbyC]

"Competition breeds champions!" I agree completely! In most cases, anyway. But by Berry singling out DR, many Motowners felt that they were in a horse race with their legs tied together as Miss Diana ran free like a delicate fawn. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[captainjames]

David was an amazing talent and enetertainer and some of same performances that he has done with the Temptations he did with the Supremes. David wanted what Diana was getting from Motown. This performnce does not strike me as him trying to upstage anyone. This performance strikes me as David being David !!! Period !!! When folks have said Diana has upstge Mary and Cindy, I have always said thats Diana being Diana. Berry always told them ..... GO OUT THERE AND DO IT !!! Diana held her own. The Tempts held their own and Mary and Cindy did the same. It was flawless seeing them together on Ed Sullivan. Of course Otis was there and thats how he saw it but I wish Diana would say how she saw it or if we had Mary or the Tempts around to give their view.

[lucky2012]

Many very good and I think fair points, captainjames. The Ed Sullivan appearance was in November, 1967, the year the Supremes became Diana Ross & the Supremes and Martha & the Vandellas became Martha Reeves & the Vandellas, giving recognition to the lead voices on those hits.

Rightly or wrongly, placing Diana front & center in this appearance I think was most probably part of Berry Gordy's & Motown's plan, with the renaming, to place a spotlight on her. David Ruffin wanted the Temptations to become David Ruffin & the Temptations around this time. This obviously did not happen, and the Temptations replaced him with Dennis Edwards in June 1968.

I agree that David Ruffin was not trying to upstage anyone. His was a talent that cannot be denied. I also agree that Diana held her own and the two groups on stage in this appearance were simply captivating.

Finally, I agree that Otis William's perspective is his own valid one, but how I wish we had other perspectives of those who were there. But like someone here said, if wishes were horses...

[Ollie9]

"Competition breeds champions!" I agree completely! In most cases, anyway. But by Berry singling out DR, many Motowners felt that they were in a horse race with their legs tied together as Miss Diana ran free like a delicate fawn. I have no idea what I'm talking about.

That's actually a very good analogy Bobby.

[Boogiedown]

It’s been well documented that Diana insisted on the key change. I don’t see that as a conspiracy theory or wild suggestion at all.
Diana was always very competitive, so this fits perfectly with something she would do. To some degree i don’t blame her for her actions. She had BG at her beck and call, so why not use that clout to improve your own performance.
As it stands, i think they all did a great job in creating a memorable performance.

It is a great performance.

It's also mentioned that Diana, being the perfectionist, was there putting in the extra time to get her part just right. [that explains how she new the arrangement was in a key that was difficult for her and how there was time to change it]. IF David were also there, it seems likely this key change would have been discussed with him, and he certainly would have been around so that it wouldn't have been sprung on him unexpectedly and when it was too late.

I'm guessing David did not likewise make the extra effort that Diana did. If you notice, when it's David's turn to join her she's looking over her shoulder as if to ask:"where in the hell are you?"
So:
David either intentionally remained further back stage as a way to throw her off her game, and to enhance his entrance,
or
he just kind of flubbed his timing because unlike her he wasn't as rehearsed,
or
Diana is just simply looking around with no further meaning to it.

[captainjames]

Again I think too much is being made of this in my opinion. Look at other performances by David Ruffin ...He was the "IT" factor as well an always performed his butt off. To put it bluntly David didn't have a problem with Diana but had a problem with why he could not be given the same treatment. His recordings after the Temptations are awesome but David had his own demons.

[Boogiedown]

Again I think too much is being made of this in my opinion. Look at other performances by David Ruffin ...He was the "IT" factor as well an always performed his butt off. To put it bluntly David didn't have a problem with Diana but had a problem with why he could not be given the same treatment. His recordings after the Temptations are awesome but David had his own demons.

I'm just bringing forth my own observations and my conclusions based on those observations. If you don't see Diana Ross' looking over her shoulder as something out-of -place [unscripted] ....that's fine .

captainjames have you viewed the youtube post this thread is about?
It states that Berry was furious with David's performance and reamed him out afterwards backstage.

If everything was hunky dory and it was David being David and the show came out flawlessly ......
what then would you say Berry was pissed at him about??