1970-1973 cgarts for The Supremes & Diana Ross Singles

[jim aka jtigre99]

It seems until Lady Sings The Blues that with the exception of Ain't No Mountain High Enough, Diana Ross charted much the same way with her singles
First Release
Up The Ladder to the Roof #10
Reach Out and Touch-#20
Second Release
Everybody's Got The Right To Love-#21
Ain't No Mountain-#1
Afterwards, Stoned Love hit #7 and River Deep Mountain High was #14)with the 4Tops) while Diana's Remember Me hit #16 and Reach Out I'll Be There was # 29
In 1971- Nathan Jones went to #16 but the 4Tops Follow up You Gotta Have Love in Your Heart only hit #55 while Touch only made it to #71
Diana's Surrender hit #38 and I'm Still Waiting only made it to #63
1972 was the year that Lady Sings The Blues was released, still Good Morning Heartache went to #34. The Supremes bounced back with Floy Joy hitting #16 and Automatically Sunshine sliding into #37. After that, the Supremes singles slid progressively lower with Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love at #59, I Guess I'll Miss The Man at #85 and Bad Weather at #87 in 1973. I am not sure if Motown was focused on Miss Ross or if Motown was feeling less loyalty to the Supremes. Now that Cindy Birdsong was gone and Lynda Laurence took her place along with Jean Terrell allegedly becoming difficult with the label, they may have had less loyalty to Mary Wilson in the face of that along with the rising star of Miss Ross as a star of music and the big screen. The Supremes did not release another single until 1975 with Scherrie Payne and Cindy joining Mary.

By 1973, interest in Ross, now an Oscar Nominated actress , may have grew and she hit #1 for the second time with Touch Me in The Morning, her duet with Marvin Gaye hit #12 with Special Part of me and Last Time I saw Him hit #14.

Any thoughts as to why legend has it that the Supremes withered away after Ross left? Clearly the group had many strong chart action and Ross was as up & down as they were if not more so.

Was it just PR? Was it a perception once Ross had a hit movie followed up with a second #1? Clearly the charts show a different story than the one that has been espoused by Motown, the press and some fans.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I was in a hurry and didn't proofread, I apologize. It should be charts not cgarts. Hahaha

[jobeterob]

Diana always said in the first year or two, that she didn’t worry about the Supremes not having hits - she worried about her not having hits

I think what you are raising happened because the albums never really sold well, the Suprenes essentially disappeared after 1973 and the group infighting did them in.

[BayouMotownMan]

The Supremes with Jean Terrell did surprisingly well after Ross departed. Motown clearly did not anticipate this and with the group outselling Ross [[patrons had to be paid to attend Ross's Vegas solo debut), Gordy was frantic. His gamble was not paying off.

Motown intended for the Supremes to have a hit or two so as not to give the appearance that Ross and Motown just tossed them aside for Diana's solo aspirations. Back then public appearance meant more than it did now.

Going into 1971, if you look at the releases of Nathan Jones and Reach Out I'll Be There, you can see this unfold. Both singles were released at the same time whereas past releases by Ross and the new group were timed so as not to compete so much for sales. Ross's Reach Out made a huge debut while Nathan made a modest chart debut, just as Motown wanted. However within a few weeks, despite a national tv special and heavy promotion, Reach Out began to stall as Nathan overtook it on the charts heading for a solid top ten showing. The result was when Reach Out started to fall, promotion was pulled on Nathan Jones. Also, the Supremes and Four Tops Gotta Have Love In Your Heart was making healthy strides up the charts when Motown pulled the release altogether. This resulted at Nathan stalling at No 16. But on other charts Nathan made it into the Top Ten altogether.

[BobbyC]

That is most interesting, Bayou. I have to say that I never once heard any 70's Supremes' records on the radio, with the exception of Stoned Love which I vaguely recall hearing as a kiddie. I grew up near Niagara Falls, NY and was a music fanatic since the 3rd grade or so. I never heard Reach Out and Touch on the radio either. It's really odd how some of these songs were Top 10, big hits, but the stations in Western NY just never played them. Other Top 10 smashes I never once heard on the radio:

Cruising by Smokey Robinson
Sweet Thing Rufus/Chaka
Up the Ladder Supremes
Any Temptations song past Papa Was a Rolling Stone

[daviddh]

Well....I think both Ross and Supremes had stellar debutes.
Both had the talent to succeed.
I think the problem was ,BG was shutting Detroit down and moving the company to LA.
Many artists and musicians were lost in the shuffle ,including ,Supremes n Ross.
bG had his sight on LSTB,and left the music in the hands of....
But ,although BG gets the credit for the Supremes success, imo.
The success of the Supremes ,imo. Was HDH.
The decline starting soon after HDH n Ballard and left.
Also artists would start leaving Motown and jumping ship....most likely good reason....
Why was Frank Wilson let go from producing the Supremes
Why was Ross kept off TV for over. Year.
Poor decisions imo.
Only the J Five and Tempts seem to be hitting the charts but by 72. It seemed it was over.
Then in 73, lSTB saved Diana's career although I have no doubt Touch Me would have hit anyway.

[bradsupremes]

The Supremes with Jean Terrell did surprisingly well after Ross departed. Motown clearly did not anticipate this and with the group outselling Ross [[patrons had to be paid to attend Ross's Vegas solo debut), Gordy was frantic. His gamble was not paying off.

Motown intended for the Supremes to have a hit or two so as not to give the appearance that Ross and Motown just tossed them aside for Diana's solo aspirations. Back then public appearance meant more than it did now.

Going into 1971, if you look at the releases of Nathan Jones and Reach Out I'll Be There, you can see this unfold. Both singles were released at the same time whereas past releases by Ross and the new group were timed so as not to compete so much for sales. Ross's Reach Out made a huge debut while Nathan made a modest chart debut, just as Motown wanted. However within a few weeks, despite a national tv special and heavy promotion, Reach Out began to stall as Nathan overtook it on the charts heading for a solid top ten showing. The result was when Reach Out started to fall, promotion was pulled on Nathan Jones. Also, the Supremes and Four Tops Gotta Have Love In Your Heart was making healthy strides up the charts when Motown pulled the release altogether. This resulted at Nathan stalling at No 16. But on other charts Nathan made it into the Top Ten altogether.

I know it was all about the appearance of the success of Ross and not wanting The Supremes to eclipse her, but I do have to say it was pretty dumb business move on Gordy/Motown's part to be vindictive against the group because Ross wasn't succeeding with the public the way they wanted her to. So instead of making money on a bonafide top 10 hit like "Nathan Jones" when "Reach Out, I'll Be There" doesn't succeed, they yank promotion on "Nathan" so it stalls basically screw themselves out of sales just because they didn't want the ladies to have a hit because Ross didn't. Dumb move on Gordy's part.

They did the same with "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." Instead of getting two potential big hits, they tell DJ and promoters to stop playing "Walking" in favor of "Love Hangover." Just plain vindictive and stupid. I firmly think if given a push "Walking" could have gone top 10. To me, it's a number one hit and one of the best and underrated disco songs.

[lucky2012]

Diana always said in the first year or two, that she didn’t worry about the Supremes not having hits - she worried about her not having hits

I think what you are raising happened because the albums never really sold well, the Suprenes essentially disappeared after 1973 and the group infighting did them in.

I didn't know she said this. I have to say, that as a young [naive?] fan I had a lot of faith in both the Supremes and Diana Ross, not to mention the Motown machine and empire. 1970 was a super stellar year for Motown [probably its last].

Any thoughts as to why legend has it that the Supremes withered away after Ross left?

I don't think the Supremes "withered away" after Ross left. That was perceived years later. I recall just as many statements that the Supremes outperformed Ross in the beginning.

Motown intended for the Supremes to have a hit or two so as not to give the appearance that Ross and Motown just tossed them aside for Diana's solo aspirations.

I find this unsupported by Motown's promotion and the quality of the Supremes singles, albums and album covers.
Re: Nathan Jones and Reach Out I'll Be There. Nathan Jones sounded very much like a hit and Reach Out really didn't.

I think what you are raising happened because the albums never really sold well

After 1967, DRATS were not huge album sellers like the big rock groups and rock stars of the time. LSTB was Diana Ross' first big album, perhaps the biggest until Diana 1980. In 1973, she became a pop superstar diva. [In the 80's she became a true global superstar.]

Ultimately, the Supremes, like all recording artists, [and even Motown Records itself] were past their prime Golden Age years. Berry Gordy's move to LA and away from the music sealed a lot of fates.

[TheMotownManiac]

It seems until Lady Sings The Blues that with the exception of Ain't No Mountain High Enough, Diana Ross charted much the same way with her singles
First Release
Up The Ladder to the Roof #10
Reach Out and Touch-#20
Second Release
Everybody's Got The Right To Love-#21
Ain't No Mountain-#1
Afterwards, Stoned Love hit #7 and River Deep Mountain High was #14)with the 4Tops) while Diana's Remember Me hit #16 and Reach Out I'll Be There was # 29
In 1971- Nathan Jones went to #16 but the 4Tops Follow up You Gotta Have Love in Your Heart only hit #55 while Touch only made it to #71
Diana's Surrender hit #38 and I'm Still Waiting only made it to #63
1972 was the year that Lady Sings The Blues was released, still Good Morning Heartache went to #34. The Supremes bounced back with Floy Joy hitting #16 and Automatically Sunshine sliding into #37. After that, the Supremes singles slid progressively lower with Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love at #59, I Guess I'll Miss The Man at #85 and Bad Weather at #87 in 1973. I am not sure if Motown was focused on Miss Ross or if Motown was feeling less loyalty to the Supremes. Now that Cindy Birdsong was gone and Lynda Laurence took her place along with Jean Terrell allegedly becoming difficult with the label, they may have had less loyalty to Mary Wilson in the face of that along with the rising star of Miss Ross as a star of music and the big screen. The Supremes did not release another single until 1975 with Scherrie Payne and Cindy joining Mary.

By 1973, interest in Ross, now an Oscar Nominated actress , may have grew and she hit #1 for the second time with Touch Me in The Morning, her duet with Marvin Gaye hit #12 with Special Part of me and Last Time I saw Him hit #14.

Any thoughts as to why legend has it that the Supremes withered away after Ross left? Clearly the group had many strong chart action and Ross was as up & down as they were if not more so.

Was it just PR? Was it a perception once Ross had a hit movie followed up with a second #1? Clearly the charts show a different story than the one that has been espoused by Motown, the press and some fans.

I don’t think legend has it that they withered away, I don’t think there’s any legend about the group at all. 1 billionth of one percent of groups don’t wither away. All the rest do. They continued to have hit records when they put out commercial ones, and it was very good material at Motown. Plus, the more pronounced legend is the revolving door axiom, which is the truth. You can’t just keep throwing unknown people into a Successful Trio With it expected to remain successful. The group lost fans when Florence left the group. The group lost a lot of fans. Naturally, when the voice of everyone of their hit records left the group. The group lost more fans when Cindy left. On and on and on it went. They were called The Supremes, but they were Supremes in name only. You can’t expect the public to embrace total strangers they’ve never heard of like they did an original member. It’s absurd. Doesn’t even matter if they were any good or not, that’s not the point. There were still some fans holding onto a floating deck chair, But the majority of them were gone. It was through natural Attrition.

they did put out several good records, but none of them really survived their decade. none are in the public consciousness. Most people just don’t care because by the time they broke up, the group was just a nonstop amalgamation of members of the week. It’s too bad because the temptations were able to maintain, even with member changes, because they always stay to their sound, and true to their roots.

[TheMotownManiac]

The Supremes with Jean Terrell did surprisingly well after Ross departed. Motown clearly did not anticipate this and with the group outselling Ross [[patrons had to be paid to attend Ross's Vegas solo debut), Gordy was frantic. His gamble was not paying off.

Motown intended for the Supremes to have a hit or two so as not to give the appearance that Ross and Motown just tossed them aside for Diana's solo aspirations. Back then public appearance meant more than it did now.

Going into 1971, if you look at the releases of Nathan Jones and Reach Out I'll Be There, you can see this unfold. Both singles were released at the same time whereas past releases by Ross and the new group were timed so as not to compete so much for sales. Ross's Reach Out made a huge debut while Nathan made a modest chart debut, just as Motown wanted. However within a few weeks, despite a national tv special and heavy promotion, Reach Out began to stall as Nathan overtook it on the charts heading for a solid top ten showing. The result was when Reach Out started to fall, promotion was pulled on Nathan Jones. Also, the Supremes and Four Tops Gotta Have Love In Your Heart was making healthy strides up the charts when Motown pulled the release altogether. This resulted at Nathan stalling at No 16. But on other charts Nathan made it into the Top Ten altogether.

I respect your opinions very much, but I disagree with a few things.

1) Why would Motown be surprised the group was successful when they gave the group the companies number one producer at the time, their top ranger to write their act, an auspicious debut on the Ed Sullivan show in fabulous red? Did they think of the ladder of the roof was going to flop on the Ed Sullivan show? I don’t think so.

2) The $20 Vegas story is an interesting one, but not told in its entirety here. Diana ross had already had successfully attended runs in Miami, Vancouver, and at the Monticello opening. Still, she was very nervous about her debut in Las Vegas and the room was only half full or opening show. so Gordy went out and paid people to attend the show to boost her confidence. The rest of the run was very well attended and there were no more $20 bills needed. It was just that one show. She had already received great reviews, and very positive audience responses, he was hardly frantic or worried about his gamble. Unless he was frantic about that first show, perhaps. A few months later she broke the record in New York at the Waldorf. by the end of the year of Billboard named her the number one pop, female vocalist. I think they were very happy with that first year.

I don’t buy that one or two hit axiom at all. Folk would expect a group to flounder after it Starr is removed from it. You take diana ross out of a group, the voice of almost 20 hit singles in six years and replace her with someone, no one‘s ever seen, or heard of? Why would the public be expected to respond to her at all? They did because she was good and because Motown tried hard to put the group over.
I don’t believe at all that anyone would’ve blamed Miss Ross if this Supremes died, no one blamed Mama Cass when their group died. Why would anyone be to blame? Did people hate Lionel Richie or Andy Williams? Kenny Rogers? Nobody would’ve blamed Diana, there would be no reason to.

reach out. I’ll be there versus Nathan Jones. by the end of reach out third week, it was not getting any more adds, it dead in the water. And went from 31, to 30, to 29, to oblivion. Nathan Jones zoomed right past it, and kept progressing for weeks and weeks afterwards. if Motown had pulled his support of Nathan Jones at reach out third week, Nathan wouldn’t have gone all the way up to number 16 a month after. And it’s true that it made it to number 10 on cashbox. it did better than reach out because it was a better record, but both for singles that needed work as has been discussed before a year. Nathan Jones didn’t build anything, had a boring break, and limped along to its fade. if they could’ve made the lyrics, understandable, and rebuilt the second half of the song it would’ve been a number one record I think.
it’s true that Miss Ross had a national television special during the release of reach out. I’ll be there, but she didn’t reach out. I’ll be there, so how could that possibly help it when all she sang where the songs from the previous year?

I don’t know anybody that was comparing the success of the two acts. I believe all this comparison talk happened in the mid 1980s. There might’ve been some people doing it somewhere but not in the Midwest. And the Supremes were not more successful. If anybody ross sold more singles, that first year, and her Albums out sold theirs from the get-go. But I don’t think Motown was pitting the two acts against each other because to me it doesn’t make sense. If Motown was worried about The Supremes being more successful than diana ross, why did Motown keep putting singles out after they stop releasing records on ross in the fall of 71? They got smoky to do the Floyd joy album and it hit single for the group and a second top 40 single for the group while diana ross was releasing nothing. It makes a good story , but it’s totally unsubstantiated by the facts.

I can’t imagine anyone thinking you gotta have loving your heart was a hit record. It didn’t even have a format. I don’t believe for a second of Motown pulled wet ever supported had for it. What’s the point of releasing it? Why put an effort into it at all? If you don’t want it to hit and you’re just going to pull it? And what would it failure have to do with Nathan Jones anyway?

[TheMotownManiac]

I know it was all about the appearance of the success of Ross and not wanting The Supremes to eclipse her, but I do have to say it was pretty dumb business move on Gordy/Motown's part to be vindictive against the group because Ross wasn't succeeding with the public the way they wanted her to. So instead of making money on a bonafide top 10 hit like "Nathan Jones" when "Reach Out, I'll Be There" doesn't succeed, they yank promotion on "Nathan" so it stalls basically screw themselves out of sales just because they didn't want the ladies to have a hit because Ross didn't. Dumb move on Gordy's part.

They did the same with "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." Instead of getting two potential big hits, they tell DJ and promoters to stop playing "Walking" in favor of "Love Hangover." Just plain vindictive and stupid. I firmly think if given a push "Walking" could have gone top 10. To me, it's a number one hit and one of the best and underrated disco songs.

I don’t believe that story at all, as I stated in another post, if Motown didn’t want Nathan Jones to hit, they would’ve released something else. It’s nutty to think they would put out a hot record, have it bolt out of the gate and then try to pull it back it’s stupid. They could’ve just released time and love or Johnny Raven or touch, or whatever and let it die its own natural death. There’s no logic there, There is nothing to suggest there was anything vindictive going on at all. Vindictive about what? Both acts had a great first year and both were doing well as the second year began. I don’t get it. What’s there to be vindictive about? a few months after reach out, I’ll be there ross would disappear from the public for a year and a half allowing The Supremes to take over the world.

I’m gonna let my heart do the walking love hangover is another story.

the Supremes single was scheduled for release about a month after I thought it took a little time. And as we all know, Motown got a whiff of the fifth dimension, releasing, love, hangover, and, knowing it was a very, very, very strong record, sacrificed the Michael Masser ballad completely for rush, release support for hangover, which I think everyone could agree was the stronger single. And it is completely true that Motown got all of their people to stall the supremes single. But the story doesn’t end there. Everyone also knows that, as soon as love hangover reached its peak, Motown got back behind I’m gonna let my heart do the walking big time and got it into the top 40. A story well told is a story told completely. I don’t think walking is a lost hit. Lots and lots of people detested that opening, And I think that hurt it huge.

[jim aka jtigre99]

Yes, perhaps the changing line up hurt the group. Mary was always there, Cindy was there until 1972 and rejoined in 1973 so two identifiable group members were still there. Jean had a great voice but she didn't seem to catch on with the general public and I can see why. On television appearances both Mary and Cindy caught the eye much more than Jean did. After Jean left, the group didn't record for 2 years and that stalled any momentum they still had. Scherrie was a great singer and with Cindy and Mary provided great harmony. I think the intro to Walking helped set it apart, I heard it on the radio which I hadn't since Automatically Sunshine. Their venture into disco was good for the time but few disco songs are classics, I still think Walking should have been higher than #40. When I called radio stations to play the last groupings they were enthusiastic especially about Scherrie. True, the changing of group members hurt their identity but I remember a review for High Energy where they stated it was disco but with the Supremes sound of one singing lead while the others were singing behind her. Motown was done with the group, it served its purpose to launch Diana and later to become a name that toured. He didn't need the group to succeed anymore, he had other artists like Diana that he was focused on.

[jobeterob]

I don’t buy the conspiracy theories either

The groups all died in the 70’s and the Supremes decline was greater due to personnel changes, inactivity and disputes - but the Tops and Tempts declined too

Touch was never going to be a hit; Automatically Sunshine was better but still was never going to be major.

I don’t understand the thinking that suggests that the Supremes got killed but doesn’t include damaging the Tempts or Tops nor account for various one or two hit wonders like R Dean Taylor, Charlene, undisputed Truth, or even Rare Earth.

Some people succeed; some don’t; the Supremes had a good run and failed.

Maybe Motown decided to sink Diana with Reac Out and Iuch and again with reach out I’ll be there - maybe again with Its My Turn

I think us super fans think too much sometimes

[BayouMotownMan]

I know it was all about the appearance of the success of Ross and not wanting The Supremes to eclipse her, but I do have to say it was pretty dumb business move on Gordy/Motown's part to be vindictive against the group because Ross wasn't succeeding with the public the way they wanted her to. So instead of making money on a bonafide top 10 hit like "Nathan Jones" when "Reach Out, I'll Be There" doesn't succeed, they yank promotion on "Nathan" so it stalls basically screw themselves out of sales just because they didn't want the ladies to have a hit because Ross didn't. Dumb move on Gordy's part.

They did the same with "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." Instead of getting two potential big hits, they tell DJ and promoters to stop playing "Walking" in favor of "Love Hangover." Just plain vindictive and stupid. I firmly think if given a push "Walking" could have gone top 10. To me, it's a number one hit and one of the best and underrated disco songs.

Love Hangover came out before Let My Heart. In fact, Let My Heart didn't begin to take off until Hangover fell off the top of the charts. Let My Heart was made a hit purely by the gay clubs who jumped on it and called radio stations to request it. I like the song but feel the wah wah guitar was dated.

Insofar as pulling promotion on Nathan because it was hitting bigger than Reach Out, you have to know the competitive nature of Gordy, and thus Diana Ross. It was Gordy's intention to maintain the Supremes as the only girl group at Motown as the Vandellas and Marvelettes were falling away and for Diana to become the black Streisand. For the Supremes to be outselling Ross was not going to be acceptable to him.

Gordy has admitted his obsession for Ross. Prior to this Gordy would lure her competitors, Barbara McNair, Diahann Carroll, Leslie Uggams to Motown recording contracts releasing product that went nowhere, thus sabotaging their recording careers. As punishment for trying to steal Love Hangover from Ross, Gordy signed a splintered 5th Dimension to a recording contract the following year, releasing two albums and two singles that got no promotion and died without fanfare to permanently finish that group off. As far as losing money on whatever act he was trying to punish, Gordy has a dozen or more big selling artists covering these expenses.

You did NOT mess with his queen.

[TheMotownManiac]

Love Hangover came out before Let My Heart. In fact, Let My Heart didn't begin to take off until Hangover fell off the top of the charts. Let My Heart was made a hit purely by the gay clubs who jumped on it and called radio stations to request it. I like the song but feel the wah wah guitar was dated.

Insofar as pulling promotion on Nathan because it was hitting bigger than Reach Out, you have to know the competitive nature of Gordy, and thus Diana Ross. It was Gordy's intention to maintain the Supremes as the only girl group at Motown as the Vandellas and Marvelettes were falling away and for Diana to become the black Streisand. For the Supremes to be outselling Ross was not going to be acceptable to him.

Gordy has admitted his obsession for Ross. Prior to this Gordy would lure her competitors, Barbara McNair, Diahann Carroll, Leslie Uggams to Motown recording contracts releasing product that went nowhere, thus sabotaging their recording careers. As punishment for trying to steal Love Hangover from Ross, Gordy signed a splintered 5th Dimension to a recording contract the following year, releasing two albums and two singles that got no promotion and died without fanfare to permanently finish that group off. As far as losing money on whatever act he was trying to punish, Gordy has a dozen or more big selling artists covering these expenses.

You did NOT mess with his queen.

I hate to disagree with you, but if you just look up the release dates for love hangover and I’m gonna let my heart do the walking you will see that they were both released on March 16, 1976. You are simply incorrect, and the dates are verifiable. It happened exactly as I said it did. The Supremes record came out, minutes later, Motown rushed out love, hangover, and quashed The Supremes record. After love, hangover began to sync, Motown got behind the Supremes record and pushed it into the top 40. You can look at the charts and see. You can look at the old billboards and cashbox magazines and see the adds.

you are also incorrect about Nathan Jones and reach out. The charts are right here. All you have to do is look at them to see what happened and what you are saying happened did not happen. Just look at the charts. Reach out died after it’s third week. Nathan Jones continued to go up and up and up after that. it’s just a fact.

I don’t believe that you know what Gordy intention was, I believe you, suppose what Gordy‘s intentions were. You’re the supposer of the song that’s in my heart.

For heaven sakes by 1976, diana ross was a movie star, named billboards, female entertainer of the century, do you think anyone gave a damn if the Supremes had a bigger record than diana ross did? Gordy needed the badly he would’ve loved it. if it was Gordy‘s intention to have The Supremes be his only girl group why did he sign high energy? I’m sorry, but none of what you’re saying actually makes any sense. 1975 in 1976 were not good years for Motown, he needed the cash. It’s preposterous to assume he did not want the Supremes to succeed. No one was comparing them. And the Supremes never did out sell diana ross anyway. So what? What if they did? Do you think it would hurt diana ross any if the Supremes had bigger hits than she did? do you think she would’ve sold? Fewer copies of ain’t no mountain high enough or touch me in the morning if touch and Nathan and Floyd Joy were number ones? Would fewer people go see ladies sings the blues and make it a number one album because you’re wonderful, sweet sweet love went top 10 and good morning heartache didn’t? It wouldn’t have mattered. He was putting out records on The Supremes when diana wasn’t doing anything. Are you suggesting he put them out for the sole purpose of having them not do well? Then why put them out? It was in his best interest to keep that group going .

I respectfully have to ask if you really believe what you’re writing about Barbara McNair, Diane, Carol, and Leslie Uggams. They were competition for diana ross? These were matron women who were not pop stars at all, before they went to Motown when they were at Motown, or after they went to Motown. And signing them, putting out product they didn’t sell is not sabotaging their career. They could’ve gone somewhere else and had a hit record. How is that sabotage? When The Spinners didn’t have, they went to another company and had hits, what people do when they don’t have hits on a label. that’s what these women would’ve done. When the four Tops stopped selling, they went to another label and had hits, ditto the Jackson 5. Generally, when you have a great record, it finds its way to the public. And if the Supremes were unhappy at Motown, they should’ve gone somewhere else like everybody else does and find a label that wants them and work for them and make them the huge stars a few people think they should’ve been. It’s ludicrous in my opinion to blame Barry. Gordy, if people are unhappy with a label, they go to another one.

as punishment for trying to steal love hangover? He took a group that has nowhere, release product on them that went nowhere, and then they went to other labels where they went nowhere. He didn’t sabotage their career at all. Marilyn McCoo was the voice of that group and she left. She kept selling records.

I think that the money machine that diana ross was for Motown was absolutely impervious to anything the Supremes did. Because not only did he make money off her records, he made huge money off of her tours. The fact that she was his favorite didn’t mean that he was gonna go out of his way to signed women that didn’t have anything to do with pop music whatsoever and try to sabotage their careers.

The new Supremes didn’t make it because they did not have a star.. You take out ross you take out Florence and all you have left is Mary. Why would the public possibly be expected to support that group just because it’s called The Supremes?

remember new Coke? They thought they could change the formula and people would keep buying it because it was Coke, but it wasn’t Coke. It was NEW Coke and they realized instantly just because you call some Coke doesn’t mean it’s Coke to the people who are used to it. It’s the same thing with The Supremes. You can call these three women anything you want but they are not the women America fell in love with. Look what happened when they changed the formula for tang, it’s all but now.

I believe, that Mary, Jay, Schwartz, and Mark Bego, got together and came up with this fable to excuse why the new group didn’t do well after diana ross left. That’s what I believe. For whatever reason, it just can’t be that the group didn’t do well because they didn’t connect with the public, the same way, and generally on the television, they did more harm to their image than good. And rather than admitting that, they have to blame others and invented this fable. They can’t even get their story straight. The lynda laurence story in supreme faith is different than the supreme glamour and different than the magazine. They contradict each other and are ridiculous. how can the same person remember something two or three completely different ways? They changed the history as it suits them for that time. And don’t care what was said before or what was true before. That’s what I believe, and there’s written proof of it.

[Ollie9]

Love Hangover came out before Let My Heart. In fact, Let My Heart didn't begin to take off until Hangover fell off the top of the charts. Let My Heart was made a hit purely by the gay clubs who jumped on it and called radio stations to request it. I like the song but feel the wah wah guitar was dated.

Insofar as pulling promotion on Nathan because it was hitting bigger than Reach Out, you have to know the competitive nature of Gordy, and thus Diana Ross. It was Gordy's intention to maintain the Supremes as the only girl group at Motown as the Vandellas and Marvelettes were falling away and for Diana to become the black Streisand. For the Supremes to be outselling Ross was not going to be acceptable to him.

Gordy has admitted his obsession for Ross. Prior to this Gordy would lure her competitors, Barbara McNair, Diahann Carroll, Leslie Uggams to Motown recording contracts releasing product that went nowhere, thus sabotaging their recording careers. As punishment for trying to steal Love Hangover from Ross, Gordy signed a splintered 5th Dimension to a recording contract the following year, releasing two albums and two singles that got no promotion and died without fanfare to permanently finish that group off. As far as losing money on whatever act he was trying to punish, Gordy has a dozen or more big selling artists covering these expenses.

You did NOT mess with his queen.

I agree on many points. As far as the history books were concerned, Gordy was far to personally involved and career invested in Diana to ever allow her be outshone by her former group. She was meant to be the queen of Motown after all, and as such unique.
As regards longevity, had the new grouping been lavished with the personal attention and guidance invested in Diana’s career, their eventual fate might have proved very different indeed.
At least with them he never had to rip dollar bills in half to entice folk to attend their concerts.

[BayouMotownMan]

I stand corrected on the Love Hangover release date. What I was thinking was that the lp version came out earlier and was already hitting. The single mix [[which I loathe) was just a formality.

Again it was Gordy and Ross's nature to be competitive. The company released another Michael Masser ballad off the album and when Ross heard the 5th Dimension being played on the radio of her Love Hangover she demanded Gordy pull I Thought It Took A Little Time and rush issue her version of the original.

As far as the chart action between Nathan and Reach Out, I will leave that as is. Promotion was yanked on the two Supremes singles.

Yes I fully believe it was Gordy's nature to sink other careers to bolster Diana Ross. This is a man who tore up $20 bills to get people to attend her opening in Vegas, and in return get the other half of that bill. Do you honestly think he'd have done that for anyone else?

The only reason Mary Wilson got a solo deal, and she admitted this, was so she would drop her lawsuit against the label. He starved Mary into submission financially. He issued her lp as her contract indicated and when the one year option came up, Mary was out. That was cold.

[BobbyC]

As some of you know, I have been going over old trade magazines like Billboard and Cashbox, looking at the charts and all that. Regarding Love Hangover--one thing I learned by looking at the old dance music charts, was that Love Hangover was a huge hit in the clubs as soon as the album dropped, long before it was issued as a single. It was big in clubs before the 5th Dimension recorded it. Facts!

[marybrewster]

I stand corrected on the Love Hangover release date. What I was thinking was that the lp version came out earlier and was already hitting. The single mix [[which I loathe) was just a formality.

Again it was Gordy and Ross's nature to be competitive. The company released another Michael Masser ballad off the album and when Ross heard the 5th Dimension being played on the radio of her Love Hangover she demanded Gordy pull I Thought It Took A Little Time and rush issue her version of the original.

As far as the chart action between Nathan and Reach Out, I will leave that as is. Promotion was yanked on the two Supremes singles.

Yes I fully believe it was Gordy's nature to sink other careers to bolster Diana Ross. This is a man who tore up $20 bills to get people to attend her opening in Vegas, and in return get the other half of that bill. Do you honestly think he'd have done that for anyone else?

The only reason Mary Wilson got a solo deal, and she admitted this, was so she would drop her lawsuit against the label. He starved Mary into submission financially. He issued her lp as her contract indicated and when the one year option came up, Mary was out. That was cold.

I very much agree that Mary's solo "contract" was simply Motown's way of getting her to drop her lawsuit. How Mary and Pedro and their team couldn't see this is mind boggling. Why on Earth would you put any trust into a company that you're suing? Why would you think they'd have your best interest in mind? There was never any intention of doing anything with Mary past the initial release.

[RanRan79]

Again it was Gordy and Ross's nature to be competitive.

Yes I fully believe it was Gordy's nature to sink other careers to bolster Diana Ross.

While I agree on both counts, I find it hard to believe that Gordy saw the women you named as competition for Diana Ross, musically.

But yeah, I wholeheartedly believe that Gordy was hellbent on making sure the Supremes didn't eclipse Diana. He had spent three or four years convincing Diana, and in turn the other Supremes, that Diana was the only one who mattered. Had the group churned out hit after hit, while Ross churned out flop after flop, that would have ground Gordy's gears for sure. Gordy wasn't just business invested, he was personally invested in the career of Diana Ross. And while some people like to think everything is "just business", the truth is that business gets personal all the time, and to make a point or advance a goal, business people, like Gordy, will cut off their nose to spite their face.

[RanRan79]

Why on Earth would you put any trust into a company that you're suing? Why would you think they'd have your best interest in mind? There was never any intention of doing anything with Mary past the initial release.

I think it was a combo of things:

1) Mary had been with Motown since she was 16 years old. Just like it took her forever to finally leave the group she had been with since she was 13 or 14, I think she had some trepidation about leaving the nest, which was Motown. I've laid out the case countless times of how Mary seemed to allow fear to rule her decisions, and I definitely believe this was one of those cases. In her mind it might have been easier to stay with the devil she knew than take a chance with the devil she didn't.

2) No confidence in her ability to go elsewhere. Again, fear is playing a part. Mary wasn't dumb. She had to know the cards were stacked against her leaving a "has been" group [[a group that she was, more often than not, positioned as a backing vocalist) in her 30s to launch a successful solo recording career. She had to ponder if there would be any takers. If Motown is holding up a solo contract without Mary having to hit the pavement to seek one on her own, it was probably easier to sign on the dotted line and breathe some type of relief, than to go out into the big bad music world knocking on doors and possibly getting them shut in her face. Remember, she does write in her book that she was still holding on to some self confidence issues regarding her singing.

3) A springboard. This might have been more Pedro's thought than Mary's, but I could imagine him being smart enough to recognize that the Motown contract might be a temporary thing, but while active, perhaps Mary could parlay the album and touring into something bigger if and when Motown pulled the okie doke and Mary had to go somewhere else.

Just my thoughts.

[daviddh]

As for the Supremes.
Old saying ,doing the same thing over n over again but expecting a different result.
The group suffered from to many standards and rushed medleys.
The ladies were talented and shouldn't have failed.
But same old same...

[BayouMotownMan]

Mary had no choice but to go with Motown contract. The company had broke her. Mary drained her bank account on legal fees and was in debt. No other label made an offer. She lost her mansion and she and her manager husband were in a cheap, cramped apartment. All she and Pedro could do was hope that Motown would come through with their promises.

It wasn't long into her lps release that they realized Motown was not. Despite some early promotion for her solo lp, it wasn't long before Motown pulled the lp and the single, and did basically the same with Scherrie and Susaye's duet lp. Motown wanted the Supremes and any reminders of that group, gone.

[jim aka jtigre99]

It doesn't surprise me that Motown didn't promote Mary Wilson. Consider they didn't want her as lead singer of the Supremes when Jean left. I only found one copy of the LP locally when I searched for it. I wasn't fond of Red Hot at the time but a local Pittsburgh station WAMO had it on their charts and it reached #7 and then the next week it was gone. Not even just a decline, gone. Plus I did hear it played on the radio. Curiosity alone would have garnered something but they just bled her dry financially and gave her the contract to drop the lawsuit. Shame because her 4 Dudgeon songs clearly had some potential. She could have been the label's female soul balladeer.

[RanRan79]

Motown was almost starving during the late 70s. They had a couple of major artists among a stable of nobodies. It was so different from the 60s when the label at least had tiered acts, the A listers, B listers and C listers. And the B's were sometimes leaps and bounds ahead of B listers at other companies, that one could argue a few of them bouncing between A and B. Motown was putting in some effort to raise the listers from one group to the next. By the late 70s it seems like the company wasn't giving any real attention to anybody who wasn't Diana, Marvin, Stevie, Commodores, Smokey, Rick James, all of whom, except Ross, were self contained artists, which may have helped them help themselves. Motown didnt seem to be interested in trying to turn someone into a star the way they did in the 60s.

So while I understand that Mary might not have been someone the label was really interested in signing, they made the decision to satisfy the suit. If your record label is having a hard time competing with the other major labels, why not take the opportunity to say, "Okay, Mary isn't our first choice, but we're stuck with her for at least one album. Let's see if the fact that she's already been a star, that she was the last original Supreme standing, now she's on her own ready to show the world what she's capable of can be parlayed into a successful project. Lets find her groove and exploit it. She might give us the jolt we need."

All it took was quality music. Whether the public would have been interested is anyone's guess. What we do know is that she was paired with songs that were largely mediocre and were bound to do her no favors in the success department. But Motown was being Motown. Basically they signed Mary for punitive reasons. They knew Mary's first solo project could make or break her and they went for the latter. And when she went outside of the company for her follow up project with a quality producer who actually found songs that paired exceptionally well with Mary and might very well have become bonafide hits, Motown showed her the door rather than attempt to capitalize off the possibilities even though they really could have used the money.

Cutting off the nose...

[BayouMotownMan]

Ironically, honcho Suzanne dePasse did champion the Jean-less Supremes in the mid 70s. She was friends with Cindy and she also thought Scherrie was a great talent. They were building momentum when Pedro fired Cindy. Mary acknowledged in her second book that dePasse always made sure the group got the best photographers, etc. The in-group difficulties chipped away at dePasse's support along with the disasters of MSG and Caesar's Palace. Gordy never had much interest in the new group until the success of High Energy, he told Mary he wanted to take the group back under wing. That would have meant putting Pedro out of work so Mary said no.

The end was near.

[sup_fan]

I very much agree that Mary's solo "contract" was simply Motown's way of getting her to drop her lawsuit. How Mary and Pedro and their team couldn't see this is mind boggling. Why on Earth would you put any trust into a company that you're suing? Why would you think they'd have your best interest in mind? There was never any intention of doing anything with Mary past the initial release.

i think because there were absolutely 0 other options. Mary had no other career options in 1977/78. she could simply retire and be a housewife. but she had a high school diploma [[of which she admitted she wasn't a stellar student, good but average) and no higher education or vocational training. she couldn't go off and be a secretary, a nurse, a teacher and in 1973 there really weren't a zillion other options for women in the workforce. A sales clerk? a stewardess?

plus mary had a taste for the star life. in martha's bio she discusses this too. when she was down and out, she just couldn't take the idea of going to a 9 to 5 job and constantly having to say "yes, yes i knew diana ross. yes yes i played on the stage in Vegas"

so professionally, the only option for mary was singing/entertainer. and if any other label had given her an opportunity, she would have taken it.

[sup_fan]

IMO Berry saw green. money. that's all he wanted. he knew that Diana had the talent and the drive to become a megastar. Flo, Mary, Jean, Scherrie, Cindy, etc all are very talented singers and entertainers but none had that mega-drive. really no one at motown did, male or female.

berry wanted to make money. yes i'm sure there were times when vindictiveness and personal feelings got in the way. but if he could sell a product, he would. the supremes were just that - a product. they had helped launch his baby - diana. beyond that, it was $. provided the group sold, i would assume he was fine with their continuing. but Jean's attitude did NOTHING to ingratiate herself with the powers at be. mary's party-girl demeanor also did nothing to help. he could see that these 3 women were NOT going to have the do-or-die approach that diana would have so in the end, why continue to invest untold sums of promotional money into a gamble versus investing that money into a sure thing?

with the Love Hangover vs Walking scenario, i'm sure this was the case. why risk spending a ton of money on Walking for it to maybe only chart like I guess I'll Miss The Man or Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love, when you could spend that exact amount of money on Diana's LH and make millions? it's a basic Return on Investment calculation

i do agree that the chart performances of Diana's early albums and singles wasn't what they anticipated. they pushed the hell out of her debut single and album and both only got to 19 on the charts.

[sup_fan]

during the period of 70 - 72, motown was struggling overall. it was no longer the hip, hot black label. Stax, Atlantic, and others had emerged with a more "black" sound and less of the "white plastic" look of motown glamour. the tops, the vandellas, the supremes, the miracles and others struggled with their releases. the temps and J5 were the only super consistent hit makers. Marvin was erratic mostly because of his self-seclusion. Stevie hadn't really yet come into his own until later 72 and 73.

motown releases just weren't hit the top of the charts. mary also mentioned this in Sup Faith. how few top 10 songs the label had in 71 or 72 versus 65 and 66

[jobeterob]

Motown’s peak year was 1970 according to Billboard but I think most fans regard 1964 to 1967 as classic although a peak was also reached at the end of 1968 around the time of TCB and Love Child and Grapevine.

There was a huge decline in 1971 through to the release of LSTB.

With respect to other opinions, I’m not much into the conspiracy theories. Record companies do initial promotion - when it doesn’t pay off and there is a plateau, they move on to the next release.

The Supremes got more Billboard ads than a lot of other Motown acts - all the releases got Billboard Cashbox and RW full page ads. Undisputed Truth and R Dean Taylor got nothing until there was action on Smiling Faces and Indiana Wants Me.

I can’t see how anyone thought Touch was going to be a hit single nor I Guess I’ll Miss The Man or You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart; all those songs would ever see is an initial
push and very little response. And Motown moved on.

Similarly, and I’m speaking totally unemotionally, with the voice she had and her age, Mary Wilson was never going to be a pop star - maybe a jazz or ballad singer of some note. Jean had the voice that had a chance and it showed in 1970 1971. I don’t think even Scherrie or Lynda were distinctive enough to make it.

Berry Motown and every other record company goes where the $$$ is - today it is making Christmas music.

[bradsupremes]

With respect to other opinions, I’m not much into the conspiracy theories. Record companies do initial promotion - when it doesn’t pay off and there is a plateau, they move on to the next release.

The Supremes got more Billboard ads than a lot of other Motown acts - all the releases got Billboard Cashbox and RW full page ads. Undisputed Truth and R Dean Taylor got nothing until there was action on Smiling Faces and Indiana Wants Me.

I can’t see how anyone thought Touch was going to be a hit single nor I Guess I’ll Miss The Man or You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart; all those songs would ever see is an initial
push and very little response. And Motown moved on.

Similarly, and I’m speaking totally unemotionally, with the voice she had and her age, Mary Wilson was never going to be a pop star - maybe a jazz or ballad singer of some note. Jean had the voice that had a chance and it showed in 1970 1971. I don’t think even Scherrie or Lynda were distinctive enough to make it.

Berry Motown and every other record company goes where the $$$ is - today it is making Christmas music.

Yes, there were full page ad buy outs for singles like "Stoned Love" and "Up The Ladder To The Roof," but buying ads in trade magazines isn't the only thing when it comes to promotion. A lot of it too occurs behind the scenes with pushing the major stations to play the current records. I know of several instances where fans have reported that their stations weren't sent DJ copies of things like "River Deep Mountain High," "Nathan Jones," "Floy Joy," etc. And if you look at many of the old Supremes fan club newsletters, fans and the ladies themselves express how there was lack of promotion for singles. Scherrie recalled hearing from a major DJ disk jockey on how Motown instructed him to stop playing "Walking" and push "Love Hangover."

I know you don't buy into the conspiracy theories, but I think its pretty telling by Gordy's treatment of Mary, Flo and Cindy as well as the other ladies on the label that no one was going to be a threat to Ross. He had a lot of investment in her. How would it look if she failed and her former group was soaring? Look at the panic that occurred during 1970. You don't think Gordy wouldn't have put pressure on the executives to make sure The Supremes were getting just enough, but not to eclipse Ross? It's totally believable and something he would have done. She was top priority for the label.

And how do we know that singles like "Touch" and "You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart" weren't released to undercut them? Neither of them are hit records, but it's very likely Motown knew that when they released them. I'm not saying it was sabotage, but is it really that hard to comprehend that they wouldn't do that especially leading into 1972 with the huge buildup of LSTB? Mary recalled during the summer of 1971 that the follow up to "Nathan Jones" was going to be "Here Comes The Sunrise." What happened there? While I agree that groups do fade with time and that certainly played a part, but we'd all be pretty foolish to think Motown/Gordy didn't play a part in fading out their light.

[jobeterob]

I can get as far as a directive that now we are going to concentrate on for example, LSTB, and that's our priority and everything else slides. Especially when what you are concentrating on takes off. I remember 4 weeks steady of ads for Lady, some being double page ads which was unheard of.

I can see another result for the Supremes of 1976 if they could have focused and I can see a different result for Mary in 2000 if she could have accepted things she didn't want to.

On the other hand, I've heard very little about any other member of Destiny's Child in recent years although I understand there were a couple of members, particularly Kelly, that had success that other Supremes could only dream of.

Maybe the background singers eventually just get screwed.

[Ollie9]

Yes, there were full page ad buy outs for singles like "Stoned Love" and "Up The Ladder To The Roof," but buying ads in trade magazines isn't the only thing when it comes to promotion. A lot of it too occurs behind the scenes with pushing the major stations to play the current records. I know of several instances where fans have reported that their stations weren't sent DJ copies of things like "River Deep Mountain High," "Nathan Jones," "Floy Joy," etc. And if you look at many of the old Supremes fan club newsletters, fans and the ladies themselves express how there was lack of promotion for singles. Scherrie recalled hearing from a major DJ disk jockey on how Motown instructed him to stop playing "Walking" and push "Love Hangover."

I know you don't buy into the conspiracy theories, but I think its pretty telling by Gordy's treatment of Mary, Flo and Cindy as well as the other ladies on the label that no one was going to be a threat to Ross. He had a lot of investment in her. How would it look if she failed and her former group was soaring? Look at the panic that occurred during 1970. You don't think Gordy wouldn't have put pressure on the executives to make sure The Supremes were getting just enough, but not to eclipse Ross? It's totally believable and something he would have done. She was top priority for the label.

And how do we know that singles like "Touch" and "You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart" weren't released to undercut them? Neither of them are hit records, but it's very likely Motown knew that when they released them. I'm not saying it was sabotage, but is it really that hard to comprehend that they wouldn't do that especially leading into 1972 with the huge buildup of LSTB? Mary recalled during the summer of 1971 that the follow up to "Nathan Jones" was going to be "Here Comes The Sunrise." What happened there? While I agree that groups do fade with time and that certainly played a part, but we'd all be pretty foolish to think Motown/Gordy didn't play a part in fading out their light.

I agree 100% with these thoughts and observations.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I remember seeing Clifton Davis on the Mike Douglas Show back in 71 or 2 and they were talking about his writing Never Can Say Goodbye. He mentioned that he had a song on the Supremes' album called Here Comes The Sunrise and they were supposed to release it as a single but then he hemmed and hawed saying that they decided to do something else and not release it. So, not sure if it was Motown who changed course or the group. It may have been Mary herself pressuring them to release Touch. She used it as her signature until the end. Notice the next two singles had Mary sharing the lead with Jean. Could have been Motown because they were wary of Jean's attitude and wanted to see how Mary would be accepted if she left or it could have been Mary herself pushing to do more like when she was finally given a lead in concert during the DRATS era. Wonder if Clifton Davis ever went into more detail elsewhere about Here Comes The Sunrise.

[BayouMotownMan]

You can be sure that Mary had no part in the release of Touch as a single. Mary was quite obedient with Motown at this point and did as she was told. Had she been more aggressive, she would have lobbied for lead singer rights after Ross left. Motown knew Mary did not have a lead voice and Mary agreed to that, at least she said so in her press releases.

From what I remember, it was Frank Wilson who lobbied for Touch as a single. Since he had a solid line of hits on the group, Motown always gave a producer his/her way in such situations unless Gordy just absolutely disagreed.

During this period Motown was re-evaluating just how much they wanted to put behind The Supremes with Diana's career languishing. Add to this was the group's demand for independence, obtaining representation outside of Motown. When Mary demanded that Gordy turn over her monies to her, this was also a show of rebellion that Gordy did not tolerate, especially from a woman. It was just his nature. Jean Terrell came from outside of Motown and for most of the time the group was having success with records and concerts, Jean kept checking her bank account and did not feel what she was receiving was adequate. If was Terrell who convinced Mary to get an accounting. This effectively sank the group.

On the other hand, Mary had become quite the sex symbol and fan magazines were beginning to feature her in solo articles.

And as Mary said in her book, Gordy simply stepped aside after all this and gave the group all the rope they needed to hang themselves.

[sup_fan]

i would love to know more about the history of the song "Touch." there are those pictures of MJC in casual clothes, alongside a car and Mary in wearing her Touch dress. i believe this was an early-ish shot of the trio, based on their hair styles. we all know that the song Touch was recorded in 71 and of course released in the summer. but mary was wearing this dress well before that. so I think Frank had the song and had been playing around with it, purposely as a lead for mary.

it might be that some people [[like Frank) were really behind the song but others realized it really wasn't that great of a single. remember Frank also did Everybody's Got the Right and that was NOT a strong song for the girls. especially as the all-important follow up to Ladder. Frank was a wonderful producer but he wasn't without fault.

[sup_fan]

ok - i get the theory that Gordy HAD to have Diana become a superstar. that if she didn't explode onto the scene and the girls surpassed her, things would be in trouble

but Diana's solo career had the same slipshod approach that the supremes did. it would be one thing if they were executing Diana's career with the same maniacal precision that Gordy used with the DMF lineup in 64 and 65. every step of the group's path was razor focused and well thought out. maybe everything didn't go #1 [[like Nothing But Heartaches) but that wasn't because of dumb decisions.

The supremes suffered from the release of 2nd rate songs like everybody, touch and you gotta have love. they also suffered from the duets inundating the market

diana suffered from a poor initial single release, the fact that EIE was released with no lead single, and Remember Me was released without a parent album. Reach out I'll be there was a poor single version of the album track and frankly should never have been a single release.

in 70 and 71, motown just wasn't firing on all cylinders when it came to career management of its artists

[Ollie9]

ok - i get the theory that Gordy HAD to have Diana become a superstar. that if she didn't explode onto the scene and the girls surpassed her, things would be in trouble

but Diana's solo career had the same slipshod approach that the supremes did. it would be one thing if they were executing Diana's career with the same maniacal precision that Gordy used with the DMF lineup in 64 and 65. every step of the group's path was razor focused and well thought out. maybe everything didn't go #1 [[like Nothing But Heartaches) but that wasn't because of dumb decisions.

The supremes suffered from the release of 2nd rate songs like everybody, touch and you gotta have love. they also suffered from the duets inundating the market

diana suffered from a poor initial single release, the fact that EIE was released with no lead single, and Remember Me was released without a parent album. Reach out I'll be there was a poor single version of the album track and frankly should never have been a single release.

in 70 and 71, motown just wasn't firing on all cylinders when it came to career management of its artists

The difference being Diana insisted on “Reach Out And Touch” being the first single. I don’t really understand why Gordy was panicked into releasing “EIE” as “These Things” would have made for a very decent third single.
””Reach Out I’ll Be There” was a class release, it was the awful single edit that did it no favours. It also needed tv promotion to help it on its way.

[lucky2012]

ok - i get the theory that Gordy HAD to have Diana become a superstar. that if she didn't explode onto the scene and the girls surpassed her, things would be in trouble

but Diana's solo career had the same slipshod approach that the supremes did. it would be one thing if they were executing Diana's career with the same maniacal precision that Gordy used with the DMF lineup in 64 and 65. every step of the group's path was razor focused and well thought out. maybe everything didn't go #1 [[like Nothing But Heartaches) but that wasn't because of dumb decisions.

The supremes suffered from the release of 2nd rate songs like everybody, touch and you gotta have love. they also suffered from the duets inundating the market

diana suffered from a poor initial single release, the fact that EIE was released with no lead single, and Remember Me was released without a parent album. Reach out I'll be there was a poor single version of the album track and frankly should never have been a single release.

in 70 and 71, motown just wasn't firing on all cylinders when it came to career management of its artists

I agree with you on all of this, sup_fan.

We all know Berry Gordy wanted Diana Ross to become a superstar. That's why the Supremes became DRATS. I think he knew Motown could move into the 70's with two superstar acts.

Unfortunately, you're right about Motown not firing on all cylinders in 1970-1971, for both the Supremes and Diana Ross. It's sad as a fan of both to look back at the mistakes and misfires.

We can wonder and think for ourselves about all this, but I also wonder how some seem to know how and why Motown and Berry Gordy felt, plotted and planned.

[sup_fan]

Yes, there were full page ad buy outs for singles like "Stoned Love" and "Up The Ladder To The Roof," but buying ads in trade magazines isn't the only thing when it comes to promotion. A lot of it too occurs behind the scenes with pushing the major stations to play the current records. I know of several instances where fans have reported that their stations weren't sent DJ copies of things like "River Deep Mountain High," "Nathan Jones," "Floy Joy," etc. And if you look at many of the old Supremes fan club newsletters, fans and the ladies themselves express how there was lack of promotion for singles. Scherrie recalled hearing from a major DJ disk jockey on how Motown instructed him to stop playing "Walking" and push "Love Hangover."

I know you don't buy into the conspiracy theories, but I think its pretty telling by Gordy's treatment of Mary, Flo and Cindy as well as the other ladies on the label that no one was going to be a threat to Ross. He had a lot of investment in her. How would it look if she failed and her former group was soaring? Look at the panic that occurred during 1970. You don't think Gordy wouldn't have put pressure on the executives to make sure The Supremes were getting just enough, but not to eclipse Ross? It's totally believable and something he would have done. She was top priority for the label.

And how do we know that singles like "Touch" and "You Gotta Have Love In Your Heart" weren't released to undercut them? Neither of them are hit records, but it's very likely Motown knew that when they released them. I'm not saying it was sabotage, but is it really that hard to comprehend that they wouldn't do that especially leading into 1972 with the huge buildup of LSTB? Mary recalled during the summer of 1971 that the follow up to "Nathan Jones" was going to be "Here Comes The Sunrise." What happened there? While I agree that groups do fade with time and that certainly played a part, but we'd all be pretty foolish to think Motown/Gordy didn't play a part in fading out their light.

it would be very interesting to see the business side of things. what was the Promotional Budget set aside for Diana, for Supremes, for J5, etc. And how was the budget broken down? what went for trade ads, for sponsorships of record industry conventions, for radio and tv, for promotional appearances at radio stations, etc.

i think it is pretty clear that motown did spend promotional money on the supremes in the 70s. there were plenty of trade ads, there are pics of MJC visiting with disc jockeys and all, there were the complex albums with tear-away posters, die cut gatefold covers, the interview version of the Touch album. but the question would be was this the "right" spending of budget? the gatefold covers for New Ways and Mag 7 were more expensive and when wrapped in cellophane, the customer would think "oh cool!" but when you actually opened them up, they did nothing with that space. no pics, no interesting graphics, etc.

and with promotional appearances, how did the girls do? did jean come across as approachable or reserved? did their appearances decline in frequency?

[sup_fan]

The difference being Diana insisted on “Reach Out And Touch” being the first single. I don’t really understand why Gordy was panicked into releasing “EIE” as “These Things” would have made for a very decent third single.
””Reach Out I’ll Be There” was a class release, it was the awful single edit that did it no favours. It also needed tv promotion to help it on its way.

Berry ran this show. if he REALLY didn't want ROATSH to be her lead single, it wouldn't have. supposedly diana really pressed him to include Manhattan on the Sing R&H set but he didn't.

Reach Out I'll Be There is good but unfortunately Mountain was just SO massive and SO unique that any replication of it would just pale in comparison. i think if Mountain had never existed ROIBT could have been a massive hit.

and all of her solo releases needed better and more promotion. tv appearances, tie ins, etc.

[sup_fan]

I agree with you on all of this, sup_fan.

We all know Berry Gordy wanted Diana Ross to become a superstar. That's why the Supremes became DRATS. I think he knew Motown could move into the 70's with two superstar acts.

Unfortunately, you're right about Motown not firing on all cylinders in 1970-1971, for both the Supremes and Diana Ross. It's sad as a fan of both to look back at the mistakes and misfires.

We can wonder and think for ourselves about all this, but I also wonder how some seem to know how and why Motown and Berry Gordy felt, plotted and planned.

Bayou mentioned once that if Lady had not been a hit or hadn't happened, it's very possible Diana would have been a star for a few years but then maybe faded out. the movie catapulted her to superstardom. it turned Diana Ross into DIANA ROSS. her first three years of solo career had 1 #1 and 1 top ten. that's hardly spectacular. and you could probably argue that the halo effect of her movie success and becoming this "mega star" is what helped other tunes become as big as they were.

[jobeterob]

We can wonder and think for ourselves about all this, but I also wonder how some seem to know how and why Motown and Berry Gordy felt, plotted and planned

Lucky

I think many of us have researched, read books, done interviews, listened, participated in discussions and forums over the years and so we feel we have some expertise - whether we are right is another matter

I think as we discuss we sometimes make subtle shifts in our views

Even Randy Tarraborelli has admitted he made mistakes and that Call Her Miss Ross wasn’t the work he was most proud of

[sup_fan]

We can wonder and think for ourselves about all this, but I also wonder how some seem to know how and why Motown and Berry Gordy felt, plotted and planned

Lucky

I think many of us have researched, read books, done interviews, listened, participated in discussions and forums over the years and so we feel we have some expertise - whether we are right is another matter

I think as we discuss we sometimes make subtle shifts in our views

Even Randy Tarraborelli has admitted he made mistakes and that Call Her Miss Ross wasn’t the work he was most proud of

oh absolutely. we are all just hypothesizing here and making educated assumptions. not a single one of us on here were there through all of the meetings, backstage, etc. But our speculation is the whole point. trying to make sense of some of these things, perhaps making much more out of a decision or a situation than it really was, correctly guessing some things

[Ollie9]

Berry ran this show. if he REALLY didn't want ROATSH to be her lead single, it wouldn't have. supposedly diana really pressed him to include Manhattan on the Sing R&H set but he didn't.

I don’t believe that for a minute. It’s well documented that BG did not want to release “Reach Out And Touch” as the lead single due to the fact it was a waltz,
It was a question of keeping his lover and leading lady happy. It certainly wouldn’t be the first or last time Diana got her own way.

[sup_fan]

I don’t believe that for a minute. It’s well documented that BG did not want to release “Reach Out And Touch” as the lead single due to the fact it was a waltz,
It was a question of keeping his lover and leading lady happy. It certainly wouldn’t be the first or last time Diana got her own way.

i think we're actually saying the same thing. if berry truly hated ROATSH, it would never have been on the album, much less a single. given the importance of the first, debut single, i am surprised he let her get her way. as we've all said, his professional focus was on launching her career and so having a misstep right out of the gate seems illogical. but hey - maybe she was able to convince him that the message of the song and having it help her image could be a good idea

[lucky2012]

Lucky
I think many of us have researched, read books, done interviews, listened, participated in discussions and forums over the years and so we feel we have some expertise - whether we are right is another matter

I think as we discuss we sometimes make subtle shifts in our views.

Even Randy Tarraborelli has admitted he made mistakes and that Call Her Miss Ross wasn’t the work he was most proud of

I agree, jobeterob. This forum is here for all our thoughts and views.

whether we are right is another matter

Some here, though, present their thoughts as facts, as if they know Berry Gordy and how he thinks and feels; or maybe they were privy to Motown.

Re: Randy Tarraborelli - Call Her Miss Ross was probably the most widely-read and influential "opinion" presented as fact after Mary Wilson's Dreamgirl.

[BayouMotownMan]

Bayou mentioned once that if Lady had not been a hit or hadn't happened, it's very possible Diana would have been a star for a few years but then maybe faded out. the movie catapulted her to superstardom. it turned Diana Ross into DIANA ROSS. her first three years of solo career had 1 #1 and 1 top ten. that's hardly spectacular. and you could probably argue that the halo effect of her movie success and becoming this "mega star" is what helped other tunes become as big as they were.

I say this as an opinion, not a fact. I refer to when Diana left Motown for RCA in 1981.

She went to RCA white hot as a recording artist, coming off the two best years she had had since the 1960s. But at RCA there was no Berry Gordy in her back pocket. By the time of her third lp release on that label she was already on a downward spiral that she could never really reverse. Music was changing and she was not fitting in, at least not without embarrassing herself [[Workin' Overtime).

When the CEO of a major label is in love with you, this makes a huge difference on the imprint of your work. Berry Gordy clearly, and admittedly, ignored other major talent to promote Diana Ross. When she had a bad string of releases, he rallied around her with new producers and more promotion. RCA did not do this. In fact, by 1986 they simply decided to cut their losses after Ross re-married and started a new family and told the label in no uncertain terms that they would make her records a hit and that she was not going on major tours. RCA lost their arses on Diana Ross and it is safe to say that she never has had or will have a major hit record again.

[Ollie9]

i think we're actually saying the same thing. if berry truly hated ROATSH, it would never have been on the album, much less a single. given the importance of the first, debut single, i am surprised he let her get her way. as we've all said, his professional focus was on launching her career and so having a misstep right out of the gate seems illogical. but hey - maybe she was able to convince him that the message of the song and having it help her image could be a good idea

I was just responding to you saying that had BG not wanted “Reach Out And Touch” as the first single it would not have happened. He clearly didn’t, but it happened anyway.

[Circa 1824]

As mentioned above, Ross was white hot when she went to RCA. She was one of the biggest stars in the world. Almost every producer and songwriter would have given their eye teeth to work with her. Yet, look who she picked! It is almost laughable. The woman was professionally psychotic, and maybe still is when you look at her 30+ year-old stage act, and the non-stop pushing of her children and grandchildren into her professional realm. I as a fan never gave two hoots about them, and I am not alone. I love the singer and the star, not the mommy and old grandma that she pushes and pushes and pushes.

I remember when Ross brought a younger Rhonda on stage. We were forced to watch her do cartwheels and then applaud.