A&S and the girls

[sup_fan]

What if Some Things had done well? i know they had an album already lined up without any additional A&S songs. but seems like the producers were doing a lot of great tunes with other groups. And I think many of these would have easily worked with DRATS

Destination Anywhere - Marvelettes fall 68
It Ain't Like That - MRATV in summer 68
Keep an Eye - DRATS fall 68
I Can't give back the love - DRATS summer 68
I'm a winner - spring 69
Some Things You Never - spring 68

plus many of the Marvin and Tammi tracks could have worked for the DRATS too.

[sup_fan]

another interesting point, is that while Diana's work with A&S is considered among her best, the singles didn't really chart overly impressively on Billboard Pop

#1 Mountain - obviously this was huge

#14 River Deep - the sups and tops

#16 Remember Me

#19 Reach out and touch somebody's hand

#19 The boss

#29 Reach out I'll be there

#30 Some Things you never get used to

#38 Surrender

-- It's My House [[didn't chart)


Kinda of crazy that the Sups/Tops have the 2nd highest charting song with A&S out of this list and NOT a tune by Diana

[TheMotownManiac]

another interesting point, is that while Diana's work with A&S is considered among her best, the singles didn't really chart overly impressively on Billboard Pop

#1 Mountain - obviously this was huge

#14 River Deep - the sups and tops

#16 Remember Me

#19 Reach out and touch somebody's hand

#19 The boss

#29 Reach out I'll be there

#30 Some Things you never get used to

#38 Surrender

-- It's My House [[didn't chart)


Kinda of crazy that the Sups/Tops have the 2nd highest charting song with A&S out of this list and NOT a tune by Diana

While I feel that ain’t no mountain is the perfect record, and remember, Me made me nuts, other than those two records, I like what they did with her but feel the records needed work. Especially reach out I’ll be there and surrender.
my problem with their early work with her is that after the break, they always modulate her to the very very tiptop of her range where I feel she is not anywhere near as effective and sounds like she is stretching. She gets away with it and ain’t no Mountain but I believe it holds back the other records. Of course, there are other things holding some of them back, but aside from those two records, I prefer her work with Michael Masser or Deke Richards - Both of whom I feel hear her voice as I do.

[BayouMotownMan]

Berry always sang Ashford & Simpson's praises, but he just didn't promote a lot of their work. He backed them on the Gaye/Terrell hits and on Diana, but gorgeous productions like Destination Anywhere and I Can't Give Back The Love did nothing

[sup_fan]

Berry always sang Ashford & Simpson's praises, but he just didn't promote a lot of their work. He backed them on the Gaye/Terrell hits and on Diana, but gorgeous productions like Destination Anywhere and I Can't Give Back The Love did nothing

i love Destination too and think Wanda sounds amazing. I don't typically like her falsetto range as much and fortunately there's not a lot of it on this record. and her breathy whispery vocals is just perfect for the tone of this record

i still do wonder what DRATS would have done with it. all of the tunes i listed at top were recorded in/around the same time period so you could sort of imagine them all being part of an A&S record for the Supremes. Destination and Keep An Eye adding a more sombre and serious tone, while It's Ain't, I'm A Winner and Some Things all have this similar exuberance about them. you can clearly hear they're from the same production team

[sup_fan]

Berry always sang Ashford & Simpson's praises, but he just didn't promote a lot of their work. He backed them on the Gaye/Terrell hits and on Diana, but gorgeous productions like Destination Anywhere and I Can't Give Back The Love did nothing

when did A&S start to really push for Valerie to have a solo career? clearly Berry was doing a lot for them with the Gaye/Terrell duets but that was done and over by 69 or 70. and then giving them Diana's first solo album. but the album itself charted nicely but not fantastically. and was Berry starting to tire of them as they started pushing Val?

[marybrewster]

another interesting point, is that while Diana's work with A&S is considered among her best, the singles didn't really chart overly impressively on Billboard Pop

#1 Mountain - obviously this was huge

#14 River Deep - the sups and tops

#16 Remember Me

#19 Reach out and touch somebody's hand

#19 The boss

#29 Reach out I'll be there

#30 Some Things you never get used to

#38 Surrender

-- It's My House [[didn't chart)


Kinda of crazy that the Sups/Tops have the 2nd highest charting song with A&S out of this list and NOT a tune by Diana

Why would that be crazy?

I always thought Jean should have tackled "I Wouldn't Change the Man He Is".

[sup_fan]

Why would that be crazy?

I always thought Jean should have tackled "I Wouldn't Change the Man He Is".

i think the A&S material with the 70s sups is all excellent. You're totally right that Jean would have been an amazing and intriguing voice for the team to work with.

my point was just my own personal surprise. I made an A&S playlist and was listening to it and it got me thinking. the DR singles [[outside of Mountain) just never really seemed to reach the potential they were worthy of. and we all seem to agree A&S did some of the best work ever with Diana.

then when i really looked at the chart positions, i was surprised the River bested all of the DR material, except mountain. my surprise is more about how the DR material underperformed.

and heck - i think if River wasn't competing on the charts with Stoned Love, I might have gone a little higher too.

[sup_fan]

here's the what i have for A&S and the 70s supremes. again, i think they had a real handle on how to use Jean's voice. all of these tracks shine

from Mag 7
River Deep
Stone Soul Picnic
Reach out and touch somebody's hand
Ain't nothing like the real thing

from Return Mag 7
One more bridge to cross
I'm Glad About it

from Promises Kept sessions
Can't get you out of my mind


I'm Glad About It was wasted as the b-side to You Gotta Have Love. it's so much better and Glad should have been the single

and if PK had been completed, while Tears Left Over is IMO the strongest single option out of all the tunes, Can't Get You Out Of My Mind is excellent too. and might have been a good single. in my PK playlist, I have it as the album opener and it really starts things out on a strong note

[Boogiedown]

I'm of the opinion that for whatever reason, Diana Ross brought out the best of A&S . The rest of their stuff mostly leans towards the meh ....

[reese]

when did A&S start to really push for Valerie to have a solo career? clearly Berry was doing a lot for them with the Gaye/Terrell duets but that was done and over by 69 or 70. and then giving them Diana's first solo album. but the album itself charted nicely but not fantastically. and was Berry starting to tire of them as they started pushing Val?

I think Valerie probably started going for the solo career circa 1970. Supposedly, her version of REMEMBER ME was planned to be her solo debut but Berry chose to have Diana record it instead. By that time, I believe Valerie had also done some work with Quincy Jones and she never gave up her background and jingle work in NYC.

Re A&S, as much as I love their Motown material, most of it wasn't really all that successful. Aside from their work with Diana, and Marvin and Tammi, they were hardly the hit machine that say, HDH was.

They broke Norman Whitfield's hold on the Pips with their recording DIDN'T YOU KNOW [YOU'D HAVE TO CRY SOMETIME]. It reached #11 on the soul chart but only hit #63 pop. After that, none of their other Pips productions were released. They went on to have another Top 10 soul hit with the Miracles' WHO'S GONNA TAKE THE BLAME but again, so-so on the pop chart. Other less than successful singles were released on the Marvelettes and the Vandellas. I think their last Motown hit was the Dynamic Superior's SHOE SHOE SHINE, after they had already left the company.

[sup_fan]

I think Valerie probably started going for the solo career circa 1970. Supposedly, her version of REMEMBER ME was planned to be her solo debut but Berry chose to have Diana record it instead. By that time, I believe Valerie had also done some work with Quincy Jones and she never gave up her background and jingle work in NYC.

Re A&S, as much as I love their Motown material, most of it wasn't really all that successful. Aside from their work with Diana, and Marvin and Tammi, they were hardly the hit machine that say, HDH was.

They broke Norman Whitfield's hold on the Pips with their recording DIDN'T YOU KNOW [YOU'D HAVE TO CRY SOMETIME]. It reached #11 on the soul chart but only hit #63 pop. After that, none of their other Pips productions were released. They went on to have another Top 10 soul hit with the Miracles' WHO'S GONNA TAKE THE BLAME but again, so-so on the pop chart. Other less than successful singles were released on the Marvelettes and the Vandellas. I think their last Motown hit was the Dynamic Superior's SHOE SHOE SHINE, after they had already left the company.

maybe they were just a bit too r&b for the motown label. i love MRATV Tear It On Down but not shocked that it did nothing on the pop market. and it's not that the pop market was totally opposed to more heavy r&b tunes. but those came from Stax or other labels. motown's Soul label sort of filled this niche for the company but even there, the tunes often had a pop spin to them

[TheMotownManiac]

Berry always sang Ashford & Simpson's praises, but he just didn't promote a lot of their work. He backed them on the Gaye/Terrell hits and on Diana, but gorgeous productions like Destination Anywhere and I Can't Give Back The Love did nothing

I like destination anywhere, I don’t know what kind of proof anyone has, if it was promoted or not, but it’s not an overly commercial pop record and, let’s face it, Wanda‘s voice is an acquired taste. I agree that I could see the song doing better, but I really don’t think it’s a lost hit. I think they went to that well too many times for the general public.

I cannot understand I can’t get back the love being described as a gorgeous production. I have always felt it was a hot mess. I seriously question the sanity of them putting it out after the Friday meeting. It starts off with those discordant horns that sound like they’re about to be opening an old grave or something, I think the record has too many fits and starts and meanders around. All of that being said, the chorus is gorgeous, and her vocal is exquisite. Every time I hear this record, I think “Gordy was right, this should’ve been the voice for the new Supremes . “Not taking anything away from Jean, but wow. I think the nucleus for a great record is here, but I just can’t imagine getting any adds at all on the strength of the chorus alone.
I prefer Ross’ Production, but it still sounds like an album cut that should be reworked into a single. I have to say I prefer Syreeta’s vocal, Although ross’ is fine.

[danman869]

What if Some Things had done well? i know they had an album already lined up without any additional A&S songs. but seems like the producers were doing a lot of great tunes with other groups. And I think many of these would have easily worked with DRATS

Destination Anywhere - Marvelettes fall 68
It Ain't Like That - MRATV in summer 68
Keep an Eye - DRATS fall 68
I Can't give back the love - DRATS summer 68
I'm a winner - spring 69
Some Things You Never - spring 68

plus many of the Marvin and Tammi tracks could have worked for the DRATS too.

Those plus how about DRATS styled/recorded versions of A&S productions:

Beware Of A Stranger - Tammi Terrell/Syreeta 1967/1968
Can't Seem To Get You Out Of My Mind - Four Tops 1968
It's Been A Long Time Happenin' - Syreeta/Blinky 1967/1968
Tear It On Down - Marvin Gaye 1968
Satisfied Feelin' - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell/VS 1968
California Soul - Fifth Dimension 1968

There's your full 12-track album of A&S compositions/productions. It could've worked. Diana Ross and The Supremes Sing Ashford & Simpson? Who knows...

[bradsupremes]

"I Can't Give Back The Love I Feel For You" was actually produced by Brian Holland and Lamont Dozier. It was recorded at a time when Ashford & Simpson weren't allowed to produce yet and HDH were on their way out the door. This song along with "Something On My Mind" are the only two known collaborations between A&S and HDH. I think being an HDH production is probably what helped to it in Quality Control.

As for Supremes/A&S, there were tracks like "The Onion Song" and "I Had A Dream [[Opus 1)" that were intended for them before being reassigned to other artists. For the Temptations duets, "Your Precious Love" and "You're All I Need To Get By" were cut but incomplete.

[johnjeb]

A few months ago I noticed that Ashford & Simpson's California Soul was recorded by The Messengers and produced by Jeffrey Bowen and released on Motown's Soul label in September 1967. Almost two years earlier than many other more well-known versions.

From dftmc.info:
The Messengers; recorded Hitsville-GW, completed 07-Jul-67 ; produced by Jeffrey Bowen
07-Sep-67; 45 [[M): Soul S 35037 B
25-May-07; CD [[M): Hip-O Select B0008993-02 The Complete Motown Singles Vol. 7 1967

How in the world did Motown not see this as a potential release or hit for The Supremes in 1967, possibly a follow-up to Reflections. If not a single release, it certainly would have been a perfect fit for the Reflections album in the Spring of 1968.

Did A&S not even consider it for Diana Ross and The Supremes rather than Some Things You Never Get Used To? Seems like a missed opportunity to me.

[sup_fan]

I like destination anywhere, I don’t know what kind of proof anyone has, if it was promoted or not, but it’s not an overly commercial pop record and, let’s face it, Wanda‘s voice is an acquired taste. I agree that I could see the song doing better, but I really don’t think it’s a lost hit. I think they went to that well too many times for the general public.

I cannot understand I can’t get back the love being described as a gorgeous production. I have always felt it was a hot mess. I seriously question the sanity of them putting it out after the Friday meeting. It starts off with those discordant horns that sound like they’re about to be opening an old grave or something, I think the record has too many fits and starts and meanders around. All of that being said, the chorus is gorgeous, and her vocal is exquisite. Every time I hear this record, I think “Gordy was right, this should’ve been the voice for the new Supremes . “Not taking anything away from Jean, but wow. I think the nucleus for a great record is here, but I just can’t imagine getting any adds at all on the strength of the chorus alone.
I prefer Ross’ Production, but it still sounds like an album cut that should be reworked into a single. I have to say I prefer Syreeta’s vocal, Although ross’ is fine.

hahahaha i LOVE the old grave comment! lolol that is SO accurate.

I'm not a huge fan of I Can't Give Back. agree with too many tempo changes, it's too complex and all.

as for Destination, I agree that Wanda can be hit or miss for me. I've always been a bit baffled that Smokey was so enthralled with her voice. IMO Gladys Horton is infinitely more expressive, interesting and engaging as a vocalist. After their run with Don't Mess With Bill, Hunter and Magician, i like Here I Am Baby. Wanda's whispery, breathy vocals and a more upbeat backing track sounded great to me. but maybe they'd just run the course with that sound and needed something a bit fresher. Also Wanda was deteriorating at this time and IMO Berry had a pretty strict run that seems to be mostly 100% followed. if you're messing with drugs and booze, you will be far too much of a liability for this company to do much with. Wanda, David ruffin, flo, martha reeves.

[sup_fan]

Those plus how about DRATS styled/recorded versions of A&S productions:

Beware Of A Stranger - Tammi Terrell/Syreeta 1967/1968
Can't Seem To Get You Out Of My Mind - Four Tops 1968
It's Been A Long Time Happenin' - Syreeta/Blinky 1967/1968
Tear It On Down - Marvin Gaye 1968
Satisfied Feelin' - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell/VS 1968
California Soul - Fifth Dimension 1968

There's your full 12-track album of A&S compositions/productions. It could've worked. Diana Ross and The Supremes Sing Ashford & Simpson? Who knows...

yes!! i was just listening to my playlist in the car and both Stranger and Can't seem to get cycled through and i was thinking "oh!! there are 2 more songs from my album"

IMO all of these tracks are infinitely superior to nearly all of the Smokey tracks the girls did. y'all know how i like to gripe about Composer, Sunny Boy, Treat Me Nice John Henry. I find nearly all of this work with the girls to be inane. Till Johnny Comes is stunning. and i sort of can deal with Will This Be The Day. but i sometimes am annoyed with that one too.

every one of these A&S is better IMO and a full album of this would have been a strong and contemporary sound. And maybe out of that set, had they NOT gone with Some Things and with something like It Ain't Like That or Keep an Eye, it would have charted and sold better.

[bradsupremes]

One A&S song that screamed Supremes was "We Can Make It We Can." They gave it to Smokey & the Miracles, but it has Supremes written all over it.

[marybrewster]

I've always thought the title "Treat Me Nice John Henry" is too doo-wop/1950's sounding.

[Ollie9]

I've always thought the title "Treat Me Nice John Henry" is too doo-wop/1950's sounding.

I have always been a fan of “Treat Me Nice John Henry”, considering it an overlooked gem. Lovely vocal from Diana with a catchy hook. I think it more commercial sounding than “Forever Came Today” or “Composer”.

[marybrewster]

I have always been a fan of “Treat Me Nice John Henry”, considering it an overlooked gem. Lovely vocal from Diana with a catchy hook. I think it more commercial sounding than “Forever Came Today” or “Composer”.

I was talking about the title, not the song itself.

[Ollie9]

I was talking about the title, not the song itself.

That sorts that out then.

[lucky2012]

I've always thought the title "Treat Me Nice John Henry" is too doo-wop/1950's sounding.

Etta James' 1955 "Danced With Me, Henry", an answer song to Hank Ballard's "Work With Me, Annie".

[sup_fan]

I was talking about the title, not the song itself.

i hate both lol. the title is idiotic, and the song matches. now the melody and backing track is nice enough but you would need to write a totally new song

[reese]

i hate both lol. the title is idiotic, and the song matches. now the melody and backing track is nice enough but you would need to write a totally new song

It is a nice recording, although probably my least favorite of Smokey's productions for them, aside from THE COMPOSER.

[Ollie9]

There were far inferior tracks included on Supremes albums then “John Henry” that’s for sure. I really like the way Diana sings the words John Henry. It’s cute.

[bradsupremes]

I've always enjoyed "Treat Me Nice John Henry," but I do have to say Smokey had a thing for writing songs with people's names in title that I always found to be hokey. The title for this song, "Don't Mess With Bill," "You're The One For Me Bobby" sound so dated for their era. Having someone's name in the title may have worked in 1961 or 1962, but by 1967 it just didn't click.

[Ollie9]

I've always enjoyed "Treat Me Nice John Henry," but I do have to say Smokey had a thing for writing songs with people's names in title that I always found to be hokey. The title for this song, "Don't Mess With Bill," "You're The One For Me Bobby" sound so dated for their era. Having someone's name in the title may have worked in 1961 or 1962, but by 1967 it just didn't click.

What about…
Abraham Martin & John
Cecilia, Mrs Robinson - Simon & Garfunkel
Sweet Caroline, Crackin’ Rosie - Neil Diamond.
Ruby Tuesday, Jumpin Jack Flash, Angie - Rolling Stones.
Ben, etc etc.

[bradsupremes]

What about…
Abraham Martin & John
Cecilia, Mrs Robinson - Simon & Garfunkel
Sweet Caroline, Crackin’ Rosie - Neil Diamond.
Ruby Tuesday, Jumpin Jack Flash, Angie - Rolling Stones.
Ben, etc etc.

"Abraham Martin & John" is about real, specific people so I don't see any problem with it and "Mrs. Robinson" was for The Graduate so it makes sense. But others, while I enjoy songs like "Cecilia" and "Bernadette," I'm just not a fan of names in titles. I think HDH once said that they made an exception with "Bernadette," but otherwise they didn't like using names in songs because they felt it limited their audience and I wholeheartedly agree. Say someone really likes the song "You're The One For Me Bobby" and wants to share it with someone they've fallen in love with, but guess what? Doesn't really work if the person you like isn't named Bobby. I know Smokey wrote it for Wanda to sing to her husband, but it just would have worked better if it was "Baby."

[Ollie9]

"Abraham Martin & John" is about real, specific people so I don't see any problem with it and "Mrs. Robinson" was for The Graduate so it makes sense. But others, while I enjoy songs like "Cecilia" and "Bernadette," I'm just not a fan of names in titles. I think HDH once said that they made an exception with "Bernadette," but otherwise they didn't like using names in songs because they felt it limited their audience and I wholeheartedly agree. Say someone really likes the song "You're The One For Me Bobby" and wants to share it with someone they've fallen in love with, but guess what? Doesn't really work if the person you like isn't named Bobby. I know Smokey wrote it for Wanda to sing to her husband, but it just would have worked better if it was "Baby."

It was just to point out that songs with names in the title have always remained popular no matter what time frame they were released in. If the song is a good one, i really don’t think having a name in the title would limit its appeal in any way. This having been proved on hundreds of occasions.

[johnjeb]

Say someone really likes the song "You're The One For Me Bobby" and wants to share it with someone they've fallen in love with, but guess what? Doesn't really work if the person you like isn't named Bobby. I know Smokey wrote it for Wanda to sing to her husband, but it just would have worked better if it was "Baby."

Smokey reworked the song, and title, in a duet with Joss Stone from his 2009 album Time Flies When You're Having Fun.

You're The One For Me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEta1y64qT4

Live on American Idol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA-xU8ldLKY