Would they still have used the Andantes if Flo stayed?

[tjl]

The Andantes were on the majority of the Supremes record from "SITNOL" forward. They were also on The Miracles tunes such as "Going To A Go-Go" and "Mickey's Monkey", a bunch of Marvin Gaye tunes, "It's Growing" and Get Ready" from The Tempts and several other Motown artists from Edwin Starr and more. I don't see how they were only a "Four Tops" thing - they also were on many Martha & The Vandellas classics like "Dancing In The Street", so....

[RanRan79]

you’re right about anorexia, but Diana was more than just stressed or lacking an appetite. She was under 100 pounds. She was unhealthy. You can see it. There’s a couple of periods where she was downright scary looking she was so thin. And I agree with you that her success was so great that it’s probably what she lived on and what kept her going. But I believe Gordie played mind games on her, and she was vulnerable enough to fall victim to them. There’s no way he was gonna let the goose that laid the golden egg get away from him twice, he learned his Mary Wells lesson very well.

Diana was extremely stressed. That stress led to her lack of appetite. Her lack of appetite, coupled with her very active lifestyle as an entertainer led to her sometimes emaciated look. Being underweight, just as being overweight, can be unhealthy, so there are no arguments there. She was also overworked, that and not eating most likely led to her collapsing on stage. Honestly, I'm surprised she didn't collapse more than that. I think their schedule might have increased after Florence left, but I could be wrong.

But as I said before, where Diana lost her appetite, Flo's may have increased due to the stress she was under. At no point in time was Florence ever fat. She was stacked like a building. Next to the smaller Mary, and the much, much smaller Diana, there still wasn't anyone who watched them on TV or saw them in person who thought to themselves, "That Florence sure is fat". In fact, if it hadn't been written about in the books, I doubt any of us would ever even bring up Flo's weight for discussion because who would have thought it was ever an issue? The lady looked good.

Now I do understand that Flo's weight could be an issue when she might have trouble fitting a particular gown, but Gordy did not help by constantly riding her and calling her fat. I get that it was a different day and so some of the sensitivities we have toward certain things, like a woman's weight, wasn't treated as delicately as it might today. However, I'm sure for Flo it didn't matter what year it was, she was still a young lady who may very well have already been dealing with some body positivity issues. We know she ended up taking diet pills, which almost certainly contributed to some of the drama as the pills often had a side effect on the mood of the person taking the pills. Gordy was cruel to her.

He absolutely played mind games. He did that on all three of them. But again, what Gordy had in Diana was sometimes a co-conspirator. That's why I can never put her in the same boat as Flo and Mary. When Gordy was pulling some crap on Diana, he never went to Flo or Mary to join in. There are apparently times when he pulled crap on Flo and/or Mary and Diana was perfectly willing to chime in.

[RanRan79]

as far as Gordy and Diana, yes, I do think her situation was as bad or worse. Just my opinion, but that is what I think. If Mary was too afraid to speak up for Florence for fear of losing her job, which I don’t believe, then, why not afford that same excuse to Diana? She was literally worked to the bone. She gave that crazy interview about leopards scratching her or whatever the hell that was. I’m not going to say what Diana should’ve done in any situation, I do believe she loved, and still does love Barry Gordy, that doesn’t mean she wasn’t abused. Mary said herself that diana was abused by Barry. Randy Terbi said the same thing. Even that crappy pulled on her shooting mahogany making her do retakes for no reason because he was the boss.

ultimately, it doesn’t matter who got it worse, they both got it bad.

Mary's job probably wasn't in jeopardy, but she had no way of knowing that. What was to stop Gordy from dumping the whole group thing and taking Diana solo, had Mary decided to rock the boat with Flo? I can understand her fear. Diana didn't have that fear. Had Diana stepped up and advocated for Flo consistently, Gordy was never going to drop Diana from the act or stop working with her after he hitched his goals on her abilities. Add to that the accusations from Flo and Mary that Diana herself could be cruel to them, no, Diana did not have it worse. Diana reveled in the added attention and focus. She delighted in the plans to extend her position higher in order to launch her solo career. She cared not how any of that affected Florence or Mary and she sometimes did and said things that made the ladies feel like Diana didn't care...and she was mean about it. Lol

Of course the situation was complicated for all three ladies. They loved each other, and I do believe they all wanted the best for each other, even Diana: she wanted what was best for Flo and Mary, and they wanted the same for her. The problem was that they had people in the middle pitting them against one another. Flo and Mary started distrusting Diana as a result, while Diana started taking digs at them as a result. There was never any real effective communication. And I stand by something I've always believed: had Diana banded with Flo and Mary to get some equality, Gordy would have been forced to make some concessions because he ultimately wanted to make Diana happy. I don't think it ever occurred to him to want to make Flo and Mary happy. If they were happy, great. If not, tough cheese.

[RanRan79]

The Andantes were on the majority of the Supremes record from "SITNOL" forward. They were also on The Miracles tunes such as "Going To A Go-Go" and "Mickey's Monkey", a bunch of Marvin Gaye tunes, "It's Growing" and Get Ready" from The Tempts and several other Motown artists from Edwin Starr and more. I don't see how they were only a "Four Tops" thing - they also were on many Martha & The Vandellas classics like "Dancing In The Street", so....

They were on the majority of the Supremes' records from "In and Out of Love" forward. Most Supremes recordings during Flo's time are the original trio. And of the hits during Flo's time, the Andantes are only added on "Stop" and the high parts of "Love Is Here", and one Andante is probably on "Hurry Love". The rest, from "Where Did Our Love Go" to "The Happening" are "undisputedly" Flo, Diana and Mary.

[jobeterob]

They were on the majority of the Supremes' records from "In and Out of Love" forward. Most Supremes recordings during Flo's time are the original trio. And of the hits during Flo's time, the Andantes are only added on "Stop" and the high parts of "Love Is Here", and one Andante is probably on "Hurry Love". The rest, from "Where Did Our Love Go" to "The Happening" are "undisputedly" Flo, Diana and Mary.

I think you need to do more research - I think you would find what I got told - don’t ask if you aren’t going to like what you hear. I think the previous poster is more close to factual. TJL - well he might have some real connections to most of these people

[tjl]

Mary Wilson was a host for me of many tv specials. As Jerry Butler decided to retire from his hosting, Mary was my choice to be the next host. I knew her very well as many of the Motown artists I've produced and recorded over the years.

Mary never held any animosity over The Andantes in my 15+ year relationship with her. She felt they filled in the harmony and gave them a fuller sound, and was happy for that as it resulted in more record sales and live appearances for the group. Mary also talked about their live appearance schedule and how they could not be back at Motown in time for many of the recordings. Again, grateful for the Andantes - not in any way animus. As was Smokey as a producer who used them often, as was H-D-H as was others. In fact, on one of our shows she introduced Louvain and insisted she sing with Pat Lewis as they had on the records.

https://www.facebook.com/ClassicMoto.../?locale=hi_IN

[blackguy69]

Mary might not hold it against the Andantes but she was still hurt that her and Cindy were replaced on their songs.

Mary Wilson was a host for me of many tv specials. As Jerry Butler decided to retire from his hosting, Mary was my choice to be the next host. I knew her very well as many of the Motown artists I've produced and recorded over the years.

Mary never held any animosity over The Andantes in my 15+ year relationship with her. She felt they filled in the harmony and gave them a fuller sound, and was happy for that as it resulted in more record sales and live appearances for the group. Mary also talked about their live appearance schedule and how they could not be back at Motown in time for many of the recordings. Again, grateful for the Andantes - not in any way animus. As was Smokey as a producer who used them often, as was H-D-H as was others. In fact, on one of our shows she introduced Louvain and insisted she sing with Pat Lewis as they had on the records.

https://www.facebook.com/ClassicMoto.../?locale=hi_IN

[Ollie9]

Mary's job probably wasn't in jeopardy, but she had no way of knowing that. What was to stop Gordy from dumping the whole group thing and taking Diana solo, had Mary decided to rock the boat with Flo? I can understand her fear. Diana didn't have that fear. Had Diana stepped up and advocated for Flo consistently, Gordy was never going to drop Diana from the act or stop working with her after he hitched his goals on her abilities. Add to that the accusations from Flo and Mary that Diana herself could be cruel to them, no, Diana did not have it worse. Diana reveled in the added attention and focus. She delighted in the plans to extend her position higher in order to launch her solo career. She cared not how any of that affected Florence or Mary and she sometimes did and said things that made the ladies feel like Diana didn't care...and she was mean about it. Lol

Of course the situation was complicated for all three ladies. They loved each other, and I do believe they all wanted the best for each other, even Diana: she wanted what was best for Flo and Mary, and they wanted the same for her. The problem was that they had people in the middle pitting them against one another. Flo and Mary started distrusting Diana as a result, while Diana started taking digs at them as a result. There was never any real effective communication. And I stand by something I've always believed: had Diana banded with Flo and Mary to get some equality, Gordy would have been forced to make some concessions because he ultimately wanted to make Diana happy. I don't think it ever occurred to him to want to make Flo and Mary happy. If they were happy, great. If not, tough cheese.

A rational and unbiased assessment Ran.

[RanRan79]

I think you need to do more research - I think you would find what I got told - don’t ask if you aren’t going to like what you hear. I think the previous poster is more close to factual. TJL - well he might have some real connections to most of these people

No, I don't need to do anymore research. The proof is in the pudding. It would boggle my mind that any true Supremes fan honestly believes that the Andantes are on more Supremes songs than Florence and Mary, if you have any ability to recognize their voices. Mary and Cindy? Sure. I think I'll start a new thread on the subject. See you there!

[RanRan79]

Mary Wilson was a host for me of many tv specials. As Jerry Butler decided to retire from his hosting, Mary was my choice to be the next host. I knew her very well as many of the Motown artists I've produced and recorded over the years.

Mary never held any animosity over The Andantes in my 15+ year relationship with her. She felt they filled in the harmony and gave them a fuller sound, and was happy for that as it resulted in more record sales and live appearances for the group. Mary also talked about their live appearance schedule and how they could not be back at Motown in time for many of the recordings. Again, grateful for the Andantes - not in any way animus. As was Smokey as a producer who used them often, as was H-D-H as was others. In fact, on one of our shows she introduced Louvain and insisted she sing with Pat Lewis as they had on the records.

https://www.facebook.com/ClassicMoto.../?locale=hi_IN

I think most Supremes fans have nothing against the Andantes. They were an integral part of Motown and many of us enjoy their work, both as backing vocalist for solo artists, as well as when they appeared on songs for groups.

[floyjoy678]

There's a lot of songs where I love what the Andantes did. But some fans do like to blow the Andantes thing out of proportion. The fact is Mary and Flo are on most of the songs, and yes sometimes the Andantes helped fill out the sound.


I'm so glad they were used on Love Child instead of Mary and Cindy, especially going by how they sounded doing it live.


Also Any Girl In Love is another favorite of mine as well as Born of Mary and Baby I Need Your Loving.

[Boogiedown]

Mary Wilson was a host for me of many tv specials. As Jerry Butler decided to retire from his hosting, Mary was my choice to be the next host. I knew her very well as many of the Motown artists I've produced and recorded over the years.

Mary never held any animosity over The Andantes in my 15+ year relationship with her. She felt they filled in the harmony and gave them a fuller sound, and was happy for that as it resulted in more record sales and live appearances for the group. Mary also talked about their live appearance schedule and how they could not be back at Motown in time for many of the recordings. Again, grateful for the Andantes - not in any way animus. As was Smokey as a producer who used them often, as was H-D-H as was others. In fact, on one of our shows she introduced Louvain and insisted she sing with Pat Lewis as they had on the records.

https://www.facebook.com/ClassicMoto.../?locale=hi_IN

who knew The Supremes were out on the road performing without Diana Ross.

[jobeterob]

There's a lot of songs where I love what the Andantes did. But some fans do like to blow the Andantes thing out of proportion. The fact is Mary and Flo are on most of the songs, and yes sometimes the Andantes helped fill out the sound.


I'm so glad they were used on Love Child instead of Mary and Cindy, especially going by how they sounded doing it live.


Also Any Girl In Love is another favorite of mine as well as Born of Mary and Baby I Need Your Loving.

I agree - the songs are the songs

Other than a few fans, no one knows or cares who is in the background

And some fans like to analyze every song for every voice

I always thought it was all Flo Mary and Cindy - even thought Johnny Bristol was Mary.

But the songs still sound the same and I got over the surprise years ago

[captainjames]

I have to back track a bit ....I really knew something was off with " Forever Came Today" and was told ....Oh Thats Cindy !!!! I was not familiar with Cindy's voice o I said okay and moved on. " Reflection" NO !!!! "Love Child"... H$%^ No but I looked at this way Mary and Cindy got charged for Studio team but rewarded for royalties for not being on a record. So at this point I thought the Andantes were probably cut the less check. I don't know I can't remember everything happening then. What I remember is that all the Supremes except Diana and Mary wrote off their royalties.

[floyjoy678]

One thing I can't understand is why couldn't they give Florence six months off from touring but still have her do the big appearances and recording? Replace her on their tours and just say she needed a break. I don't see what is so taboo about that.

It seems like most of her problems were from their hectic touring schedule.

[RanRan79]

One thing I can't understand is why couldn't they give Florence six months off from touring but still have her do the big appearances and recording? Replace her on their tours and just say she needed a break. I don't see what is so taboo about that.

It seems like most of her problems were from their hectic touring schedule.

In a perfect world that might have been a good solution. In Gordy's world, it was either all or nothing. Plus, PR wise, what would be the explanation when the press started asking "Where's Florence? And why is she with the group sometimes, and replaced other times?" I don't know if Motown was savvy enough to handle the issue. After all, when Florence was fired for good, the company line was that she wanted to settle down, with Diana even saying Flo wanted to go into the antique business. But that ends up look sketchy when months later Florence is a solo artist at another record label.

[Ollie9]

One thing I can't understand is why couldn't they give Florence six months off from touring but still have her do the big appearances and recording? Replace her on their tours and just say she needed a break. I don't see what is so taboo about that.

It seems like most of her problems were from their hectic touring schedule.

Flo appeared rested and recovered when she agreed to return in 67. Whether or not that was for a trial period or just waiting until Cindy had sorted out her contract i’m still not entirely sure. It was only when she discovered Cindy’s identical costume in the dressing room did things go just a little awry.
I would love to know just how Cindy’s labelled costume came to be hanging up right next to Flo’s. Perhaps her return was going a little to well.

[Boogiedown]

I would love to know just how Cindy’s labelled costume came to be hanging up right next to Flo’s. Perhaps her return was going a little to well.

ooooh that's a juicy one. who? indeed! there's more than one possibility.

If that scene of the "Flo" character finding that carefully [or recklessly?] placed dress weren't in Dreamgirls , it should've been.

[sup_fan]

One thing I can't understand is why couldn't they give Florence six months off from touring but still have her do the big appearances and recording? Replace her on their tours and just say she needed a break. I don't see what is so taboo about that.

It seems like most of her problems were from their hectic touring schedule.

the supremes had contracts with each appearance. it would have been too disorganized to have a rotating position plus it would have potentially had negative impacts on the relationship with promoters.

To Berry's point of view, the girls needed to make money. lots of it. as much of it as possible. Flo's problems just were too disruptive to this idea and they couldn't stop every time she felt blue or not with it. her personal issues were having a clear and negative impact on the money other people were earning. everyone at motown was frazzled and running 10,000 MPH and going non stop. Flo wasn't being asked to do anything D and M weren't so the feeling was problem "get over yourself and get going."

[Ollie9]

ooooh that's a juicy one. who? indeed! there's more than one possibility.

If that scene of the "Flo" character finding that carefully [or recklessly?] placed dress weren't in Dreamgirls , it should've been.

Very cloak and dagger. All that’s needed is the dead body in the drawing room.
I think anyone would have felt crushed under such circumstances, making Flo’s reaction understandable. Was it done on purpose who knows, but it’s rather interesting it didn’t happen earlier in the tour and only at the point where Cindy had been given the all clear. Hmmm.

[TheMotownManiac]

Diana was always thin as is obvious to anyone who watches Mahogany. She was certainly overworked at certain points in time leading to her collapse. That is well documented and certainly a form of abuse.
On the other hand, to infer that she suffered more than the physical abuse handed out to Mary Wilson by her husband or the mental anguish suffered by Flo Ballard is being a little simplistic and rather insensitive.
If BG was so dreadfully abusive to Diana, why did she set out on a rather long sexual relationship that resulted in Rhonda. Even today it’s clear she adores the man.

Gordy was a great manipulator. He used people, to them up and spit them out. I believe he loved Diana, truly loved her, but he loved money more. I know people like that. I know one in particular very very very well. It’s beyond comprehension that things he has done to get more money…… More than could ever affect his lifestyle until death. Some people are just obsessed that way. I think Gordie was one of them. Plus, he may have had a bit of a Napoleon complex as well . Having his signature “a berry Gordy film “all over mahogany and the album and the songs… this is a man that needs a little adjustment. Look how horribly he treated Raynoma. I don’t think he ever got over, losing Mary Wells, and played Miss Ross like a piano to keep her under his thumb, including encouraging a chasm in her relationship with the other girls. he knew she had ego problems, and that feeding into them would be like catnip to her and less time she spent conferring with her buddies would mean the last time she would sit with them on any issues. It’s been said many times that even after performances that were off the chart with the audiences, Berry, and or Shelley come back right afterwards with their yellow pads and tell her all the things she did wrong. It kept her on her toes, perhaps, but I don’t think that she was really secure on stage until years after she left Motown. Ryan O’Neill tried to tell her, Gene Simmons tried to tell her, and finally got through, Bob Silverstein tried to tell her and even complained about the control they had over his wife in people magazine, cover story. That is manipulation. And I don’t think she was smart enough to realize what was happening. None of them were smart enough to know they were being ripped off, initially I can understand it.

as Ran said, this business about worrying about competition from Florence and mary is ridiculous. And I will look for the sources for Diana. Being told she is carrying the entire company on her shoulders.

I don’t think Daugherty cared at all. What happened to Mary and Florence or if anything happened to them. He didn’t see them as necessary assets. They served their purpose and proved expendable by 1967. it would’ve been wonderful if they were all happy family, but I believe he felt he would make more money if they were not because he would have more control.

[TheMotownManiac]

Ran I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don’t believe that mary was told she flat out couldn’t sing. Probably something like her voice wasn’t suited for the kind of records he wanted to do that kind of thing. If she couldn’t sing, she wouldn’t have been given people, and subsequent solos. Although I’ve heard those things happened over his dead body. Florence may not have been fat, but she was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. look how much bigger she is in the tami show versus Andy Williams. That’s two years and two months on an upward trajectory. There was no reason to be cruel about it, and I think that if he had given them a decent amount of time off, even a month, that might’ve been enough to at least recharge, and maybe work on some things. Had flow, stayed in the groove and continued to gain weight, she would’ve looked horrible in all those super tight gowns like the black. But you can’t nag people into losing weight anymore than you can nag them to quit drinking or anything else.

is another aspect to group unity that I’ve been reticent to bring up because I don’t want to start anything big, but I believe that Mary encouraged some dissent in the ranks. I’ve always wondered if she was resentful or jealous of Flos popularity. And I know that she wasn’t encouraging group unity when Cindy joined, because she told me that not long after she joined the group Mary was trying to get her on “her side“ and Cindy hadn’t realized that there were sides. I believe that it’s very possible that, in some fashion, Mary might have encouraged Florences already present dissatisfaction with the group direction.

I will find the source Or sources for Diana being told the success of the company arrested on her back. I believe it’s real, enough people from the company have commented on that over the years, but all of that was after the fact.

[midnightman]

They were on the majority of the Supremes' records from "In and Out of Love" forward. Most Supremes recordings during Flo's time are the original trio. And of the hits during Flo's time, the Andantes are only added on "Stop" and the high parts of "Love Is Here", and one Andante is probably on "Hurry Love". The rest, from "Where Did Our Love Go" to "The Happening" are "undisputedly" Flo, Diana and Mary.

I totally believe this. And it's easy to trace the background vocals and what was added or not. It's just a Motown fable to assume the Andantes were always there when the original Supremes were recording, I just don't believe it. Just an attempt for those who prefer Diana only to make it seem like the Andantes being there was no big deal.

[midnightman]

I will find the source Or sources for Diana being told the success of the company arrested on her back. I believe it’s real, enough people from the company have commented on that over the years, but all of that was after the fact.

Wasn't this alluded in J. Randy's Call Her Miss Ross and Diana: A Biography books?

[midnightman]

Gordy was a great manipulator. He used people, to them up and spit them out. I believe he loved Diana, truly loved her, but he loved money more. I know people like that. I know one in particular very very very well. It’s beyond comprehension that things he has done to get more money…… More than could ever affect his lifestyle until death. Some people are just obsessed that way. I think Gordie was one of them. Plus, he may have had a bit of a Napoleon complex as well . Having his signature “a berry Gordy film “all over mahogany and the album and the songs… this is a man that needs a little adjustment. Look how horribly he treated Raynoma. I don’t think he ever got over, losing Mary Wells, and played Miss Ross like a piano to keep her under his thumb, including encouraging a chasm in her relationship with the other girls. he knew she had ego problems, and that feeding into them would be like catnip to her and less time she spent conferring with her buddies would mean the last time she would sit with them on any issues. It’s been said many times that even after performances that were off the chart with the audiences, Berry, and or Shelley come back right afterwards with their yellow pads and tell her all the things she did wrong. It kept her on her toes, perhaps, but I don’t think that she was really secure on stage until years after she left Motown. Ryan O’Neill tried to tell her, Gene Simmons tried to tell her, and finally got through, Bob Silverstein tried to tell her and even complained about the control they had over his wife in people magazine, cover story. That is manipulation. And I don’t think she was smart enough to realize what was happening. None of them were smart enough to know they were being ripped off, initially I can understand it.

as Ran said, this business about worrying about competition from Florence and mary is ridiculous. And I will look for the sources for Diana. Being told she is carrying the entire company on her shoulders.

I don’t think Daugherty cared at all. What happened to Mary and Florence or if anything happened to them. He didn’t see them as necessary assets. They served their purpose and proved expendable by 1967. it would’ve been wonderful if they were all happy family, but I believe he felt he would make more money if they were not because he would have more control.

That's because Berry and other Motown brass looked at Diana as a brand for the label, a product. She was never looked on as an artist in the same way her male contemporaries like Marvin and Stevie because neither of them really cowed down to Berry [[unlike Smokey, who was basically "Berry's little brother"). The Mary Wells incident definitely sowed the seeds with how he treated Diana. I think Diana even got brainwashed to think Berry deeply looked out for her best interest and she didn't begin to realize it until the Mahogany slapping incident in Rome. But it was only when she looked at her bank account as she was planning to leave Motown that she discovered Berry had done the same to her as he did to her Supremes bandmates.

[midnightman]

Flo appeared rested and recovered when she agreed to return in 67. Whether or not that was for a trial period or just waiting until Cindy had sorted out her contract i’m still not entirely sure. It was only when she discovered Cindy’s identical costume in the dressing room did things go just a little awry.
I would love to know just how Cindy’s labelled costume came to be hanging up right next to Flo’s. Perhaps her return was going a little to well.

That's an interesting factoid because the way the story was originally told, Flo didn't get ballistic until she saw the name changed from the Supremes to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" but now we know that Flo knew of this name change as early as spring 1967 [[as "The Supremes WITH Diana Ross") and they were going as such when Flo performed with them the first two shows at the Flamingo with no problem. It makes sense she would drink herself to embarrassment after "accidentally" seeing Cindy's outfit. And if it was purposely placed there, Berry [[and likely Diana and Mary) definitely wanted her OUT.

Just a mess either way you cut it.

[midnightman]

In a perfect world that might have been a good solution. In Gordy's world, it was either all or nothing. Plus, PR wise, what would be the explanation when the press started asking "Where's Florence? And why is she with the group sometimes, and replaced other times?" I don't know if Motown was savvy enough to handle the issue. After all, when Florence was fired for good, the company line was that she wanted to settle down, with Diana even saying Flo wanted to go into the antique business. But that ends up look sketchy when months later Florence is a solo artist at another record label.

The media in the 1960s wasn't sophisticated enough to find out about the onstage drama [[except those in the tabloid scene, which was still underground back then) and Motown was all about keeping up pretty images so of course they would never would've told the truth that Flo got kicked out for being drunk. I mean if you read between the lines, Flo's incident that led to her being fired was never mentioned in the press. Berry couldn't afford to have his reputation [[and that of the Supremes) in jeopardy if the truth leaked so that's why it made sense for them to release those fake PR statements.

[midnightman]

I have to back track a bit ....I really knew something was off with " Forever Came Today" and was told ....Oh Thats Cindy !!!! I was not familiar with Cindy's voice o I said okay and moved on. " Reflection" NO !!!! "Love Child"... H$%^ No but I looked at this way Mary and Cindy got charged for Studio team but rewarded for royalties for not being on a record. So at this point I thought the Andantes were probably cut the less check. I don't know I can't remember everything happening then. What I remember is that all the Supremes except Diana and Mary wrote off their royalties.

Crazy thing is the Andantes weren't paid a cent for singing on all those backgrounds. I don't know if that happened because Berry feared the groups would be ready to jump ship or not but that's nuts how you have these ladies covering for group members while the actual lead singers of these groups [[Diana, Wanda and Martha) were cutting leads yet the groups were still getting paid and they weren't. Just messy. Berry was a cheapskate!

[sup_fan]

Crazy thing is the Andantes weren't paid a cent for singing on all those backgrounds. I don't know if that happened because Berry feared the groups would be ready to jump ship or not but that's nuts how you have these ladies covering for group members while the actual lead singers of these groups [[Diana, Wanda and Martha) were cutting leads yet the groups were still getting paid and they weren't. Just messy. Berry was a cheapskate!

actually that isn't true. the As were paid but not in the form of royalties. if a producer decided a song needed a harp, they would have to hire that. or if a song needed strings or an accordion or whatever instrument. the instrumentation for songs varied considerably and it would also probably depend on what budget was allotted to the producer. HDH most certainly had access to a larger budget than some new, lowly producer. they wouldn't have just given everyone carte blanche to make any type of record they could dream of

same would go for adding vocals. the singers would be paid for their sessions. if you wanted more singers, you would have to pay more people. even mary acknowledged that in the early days that's a lot of how the sups earned money - backing vocals, hand claps. these would have been noted in the session logs and then the musicians and singers paid accordingly

[Ollie9]

That's an interesting factoid because the way the story was originally told, Flo didn't get ballistic until she saw the name changed from the Supremes to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" but now we know that Flo knew of this name change as early as spring 1967 [[as "The Supremes WITH Diana Ross") and they were going as such when Flo performed with them the first two shows at the Flamingo with no problem. It makes sense she would drink herself to embarrassment after "accidentally" seeing Cindy's outfit. And if it was purposely placed there, Berry [[and likely Diana and Mary) definitely wanted her OUT.

Just a mess either way you cut it.

Flo was apparently in a good mood until she discovered Cindy’s outfit hanging in their dressing room. It was the day after her birthday party the previous night and all three Supremes were said to be a little hung over.
There had previously been a confrontation with Gordy about the name change, but it was Cindy’s outfit that really sent her off the rails.
It is possible that Flo had deluded herself into thinking she was back with the group for good. Even if she hadn’t, finding that outfit was a cruel and nasty thing to happen.

[RanRan79]

Very cloak and dagger. All that’s needed is the dead body in the drawing room.
I think anyone would have felt crushed under such circumstances, making Flo’s reaction understandable. Was it done on purpose who knows, but it’s rather interesting it didn’t happen earlier in the tour and only at the point where Cindy had been given the all clear. Hmmm.

Ollie, I'm not sure that's the version of events as told by Flo. In "her" book, she says that Cindy was sometimes traveling with them. She knew Cindy was learning the routines and everything. Of course this bothered her and she admits she was depressed and drinking on top of it, also admitting that's a bad combination. She pointedly accuses Berry's criticism of her weight as a factor, and the night of the infamous "stomach poke", she felt since they want to target her weight so much, she'd go the extra mile. And of course we know that was the final straw for Gordy.

Flo also admits to having drinks before the show. She felt this was normal, as Diana and Mary both did the same. The problem, obviously, is that Flo couldn't hold her liquor, unlike the other two, and in all likelihood, because she was under the influence, her judgement was likely to be off.

So I don't think the dress scenario is actually true. Flo already knew Cindy was waiting, so her dress wouldn't have been a surprise. But I do think Cindy's presence overall was unnerving to Florence.

My question is did anyone explain Cindy's presence to Flo? Or was this yet another thing everybody in the group and entourage chose not to address? I know one speculation is that this period was solely about getting Cindy out of her contract, which then begs the question: Was Flo the type of woman who, after everything that had gone down, would come back to the Supremes to basically fill in for her own replacement? I personally don't think so, so she had to have been told that she was back full time, as long as she stayed on her best behavior. I think Mary also referred to it as a trial basis. But then, what was Cindy being told? Was she being told that Flo was back just long enough for Cindy's contract situation to be worked out and then, once that happened, Cindy would be a permanent Supreme? Or was she told that Flo was back and Cindy would only be a replacement in the event she was needed, like if Flo was fired?

So many questions. Who left has the answers?

[RanRan79]

Ran I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don’t believe that mary was told she flat out couldn’t sing. Probably something like her voice wasn’t suited for the kind of records he wanted to do that kind of thing. If she couldn’t sing, she wouldn’t have been given people, and subsequent solos. Although I’ve heard those things happened over his dead body. Florence may not have been fat, but she was getting bigger and bigger and bigger. look how much bigger she is in the tami show versus Andy Williams. That’s two years and two months on an upward trajectory. There was no reason to be cruel about it, and I think that if he had given them a decent amount of time off, even a month, that might’ve been enough to at least recharge, and maybe work on some things. Had flow, stayed in the groove and continued to gain weight, she would’ve looked horrible in all those super tight gowns like the black. But you can’t nag people into losing weight anymore than you can nag them to quit drinking or anything else.

is another aspect to group unity that I’ve been reticent to bring up because I don’t want to start anything big, but I believe that Mary encouraged some dissent in the ranks. I’ve always wondered if she was resentful or jealous of Flos popularity. And I know that she wasn’t encouraging group unity when Cindy joined, because she told me that not long after she joined the group Mary was trying to get her on “her side“ and Cindy hadn’t realized that there were sides. I believe that it’s very possible that, in some fashion, Mary might have encouraged Florences already present dissatisfaction with the group direction.

I will find the source Or sources for Diana being told the success of the company arrested on her back. I believe it’s real, enough people from the company have commented on that over the years, but all of that was after the fact.

Flo would've killed in those "Forever Came Today" gowns.

Regarding Mary being told she couldn't sing, for some reason everyone forgets to mention that Mary says in her book that Gordy was joking. So she never painted a picture of him just popping up out the blue like "Hey Mary, you can't sing". Or criticizing her vocal skills from the audience or something. She asked about singing more leads, he joked about her not being able to sing, and because she seems to have considered herself the third best singer in a trio, the joke, as some jokes do when they hit close to home, stung. I'm sure she had to wonder to herself if, although it was supposed to be a joke, was there any truth to it from Gordy's POV. Mary was only 21 at the time, still very vulnerable to confidence issues, especially if it comes from a man. I believe her when she says that it messed with her self confidence.

Regarding Mary encouraging dissent, I don't believe that. I believe Mary felt the group was moving away from what they founded and she knew Flo felt the same way. But where Flo would speak up, Mary would shut up, leaving Flo on the battlefield alone. I think Mary liked having Flo as a mouthpiece, but at the same time, realizing that Flo was now digging a hole for herself, she thought Flo should pull back. Or maybe she was good with things until she felt like Flo had gone too far and now it would just be better for both of them to go along to get along. Who knows? But I don't believe for one moment that Mary wanted Flo out of the group and pushed her to do things that would get her kicked out.

I do believe that Mary wanted to make sure Cindy was her ally. With Flo gone, it would now be Mary out all alone. Makes sense that she'd want to make sure her new singing partner was on her side, because certainly a line had been drawn between Gordy and Diana on one side, Mary on the other. Who could blame Mary for that?

[RanRan79]

The media in the 1960s wasn't sophisticated enough to find out about the onstage drama [[except those in the tabloid scene, which was still underground back then) and Motown was all about keeping up pretty images so of course they would never would've told the truth that Flo got kicked out for being drunk. I mean if you read between the lines, Flo's incident that led to her being fired was never mentioned in the press. Berry couldn't afford to have his reputation [[and that of the Supremes) in jeopardy if the truth leaked so that's why it made sense for them to release those fake PR statements.

Yeah, the fake PR statement made sense, except Flo blew it all up when she signed with ABC. The press was always asking the question in a round about way, but now they were flat out asking if Flo left because of the name change, or because she and Diana didn't get along. And make no mistake about it, although everyone tried to keep a lid on things, Flo had a couple of public blowups:

-There was apparently some kind of blow up between Flo and Diana at a department store autograph signing in front of witnesses.

-There was the blowup when the ladies were filming a commercial in the Brewster Projects, with people watching.

-Flo threw a drink in Berry's face in a nightclub, surely in front of other patrons.

-Most accounts of Flo's last night as a Supreme have her and Gordy having a loud and public argument backstage, which no doubt hotel staff would have been present for.

Trust, the rumors were already flying in the press, including reports of Flo and Diana having fights. But again, Motown didn't have the savviness to handle Flo leaving or they would have come up with something less faulty than Flo wanting to settle down or sell antiques. Lol So imagine how tongue tied they would have been to address the scenario Floyjoy presented?

[Ollie9]

Ollie, I'm not sure that's the version of events as told by Flo. In "her" book, she says that Cindy was sometimes traveling with them. She knew Cindy was learning the routines and everything. Of course this bothered her and she admits she was depressed and drinking on top of it, also admitting that's a bad combination. She pointedly accuses Berry's criticism of her weight as a factor, and the night of the infamous "stomach poke", she felt since they want to target her weight so much, she'd go the extra mile. And of course we know that was the final straw for Gordy.

Flo also admits to having drinks before the show. She felt this was normal, as Diana and Mary both did the same. The problem, obviously, is that Flo couldn't hold her liquor, unlike the other two, and in all likelihood, because she was under the influence, her judgement was likely to be off.

So I don't think the dress scenario is actually true. Flo already knew Cindy was waiting, so her dress wouldn't have been a surprise. But I do think Cindy's presence overall was unnerving to Florence.

My question is did anyone explain Cindy's presence to Flo? Or was this yet another thing everybody in the group and entourage chose not to address? I know one speculation is that this period was solely about getting Cindy out of her contract, which then begs the question: Was Flo the type of woman who, after everything that had gone down, would come back to the Supremes to basically fill in for her own replacement? I personally don't think so, so she had to have been told that she was back full time, as long as she stayed on her best behavior. I think Mary also referred to it as a trial basis. But then, what was Cindy being told? Was she being told that Flo was back just long enough for Cindy's contract situation to be worked out and then, once that happened, Cindy would be a permanent Supreme? Or was she told that Flo was back and Cindy would only be a replacement in the event she was needed, like if Flo was fired?

So many questions. Who left has the answers?

Is it not true that Flo donned Cindy’s costume that made for a bad fit on that fateful night?. If not I’m having some really vivid dreams lol.
I can’t imagine Cindy would ever have left the Bluebells on a half promise that if she was ever needed.
In Peter Benjaminson book Flo mentions lying on the bed in her hotel thinking “am i in or out”. This seems to indicate she considered herself on trial, though i feel she was being deceived.

[blackguy69]

The story was Flo putting on Cindy’s outfit and it was an ill fit [[confirming Flo and Cindy were not the same size).

Is it not true that Flo donned Cindy’s costume that made for a bad fit on that fateful night?. If not I’m having some really vivid dreams lol.
I can’t imagine Cindy would ever have left the Bluebells on a half promise that if she was ever needed.
In Peter Benjaminson book Flo mentions lying on the bed in her hotel thinking “am i in or out”. This seems to indicate she considered herself on trial, though i feel she was being deceived.

[Ollie9]

The story was Flo putting on Cindy’s outfit and it was an ill fit [[confirming Flo and Cindy were not the same size).

Thanks for the confirmation. This to me would seem to indicate that despite the name change, it was discovering Cindy’s outfit that really brought home to Flo she was truly out of the group. Judging by her reaction, it would appear she thought she was still on trial, despite Cindy’s presence at the Copa.

[midnightman]

Flo was apparently in a good mood until she discovered Cindy’s outfit hanging in their dressing room. It was the day after her birthday party the previous night and all three Supremes were said to be a little hung over.
There had previously been a confrontation with Gordy about the name change, but it was Cindy’s outfit that really sent her off the rails.
It is possible that Flo had deluded herself into thinking she was back with the group for good. Even if she hadn’t, finding that outfit was a cruel and nasty thing to happen.

Finding the outfit was clearly a sign of disrespect to Flo.

[reese]

Thanks for the confirmation. This to me would seem to indicate that despite the name change, it was discovering Cindy’s outfit that really brought home to Flo she was truly out of the group. Judging by her reaction, it would appear she thought she was still on trial, despite Cindy’s presence at the Copa.

From what J. Randy wrote in his most recent Diana book, on that last day, Flo was the first to arrive backstage, according to some stagehands. They thought she might have been hungover, probably from her birthday party the night before. Still, she seemed to be in a jovial mood when she entered the dressing room.

But apparently, it was there that she discovered four tuxes, not three. Her's, Mary's and Diana's. On the fourth outfit, where a group member's name was usually embroidered in the tag, Cindy's name was written in black permanent marker.

Flo went to Joe Morgan, the Las Vegas tailor who I assume made the outfits, and demanded to know what was happening. He told her that Berry said to have the extra outfit made in case it became necessary. Flo responded that if they wanted a Supreme to fit into that particular outfit, then it would be her. She told Joe to "scram," and Morgan said he left as quickly as possible because he knew there was going to be trouble. Then apparently, Flo put on Cindy's tux which was too small.

Note: It was also Morgan that provided photos and memories to J. Randy regarding Flo's birthday party as well as the afternoon get-together Esther Edwards arranged for Flo to share "birthday snacks."

[midnightman]

actually that isn't true. the As were paid but not in the form of royalties. if a producer decided a song needed a harp, they would have to hire that. or if a song needed strings or an accordion or whatever instrument. the instrumentation for songs varied considerably and it would also probably depend on what budget was allotted to the producer. HDH most certainly had access to a larger budget than some new, lowly producer. they wouldn't have just given everyone carte blanche to make any type of record they could dream of

same would go for adding vocals. the singers would be paid for their sessions. if you wanted more singers, you would have to pay more people. even mary acknowledged that in the early days that's a lot of how the sups earned money - backing vocals, hand claps. these would have been noted in the session logs and then the musicians and singers paid accordingly

That is true but for them to appear on those recordings and only get the pay they did, I think they were ripped off. Same with the Funks.

[midnightman]

^^ Interesting tidbit about Flo deliberately putting on Cindy's dress. That explains why she stuck her stomach out.

[reese]

That is true but for them to appear on those recordings and only get the pay they did, I think they were ripped off. Same with the Funks.

Not sure what pay scales the Andantes or Funks were receiving. But shouldn't such work be arranged through unions?

[Ollie9]

From what J. Randy wrote in his most recent Diana book, on that last day, Flo was the first to arrive backstage, according to some stagehands. They thought she might have been hungover, probably from her birthday party the night before. Still, she seemed to be in a jovial mood when she entered the dressing room.

But apparently, it was there that she discovered four tuxes, not three. Her's, Mary's and Diana's. On the fourth outfit, where a group member's name was usually embroidered in the tag, Cindy's name was written in black permanent marker.

Flo went to Joe Morgan, the Las Vegas tailor who I assume made the outfits, and demanded to know what was happening. He told her that Berry said to have the extra outfit made in case it became necessary. Flo responded that if they wanted a Supreme to fit into that particular outfit, then it would be her. She told Joe to "scram," and Morgan said he left as quickly as possible because he knew there was going to be trouble. Then apparently, Flo put on Cindy's tux which was too small.

Note: It was also Morgan that provided photos and memories to J. Randy regarding Flo's birthday party as well as the afternoon get-together Esther Edwards arranged for Flo to share "birthday snacks."

So it must have been under BG’s instruction that Cindy’s outfit was placed in the shared dressing room with the knowledge of what Flo’s reaction was likely to be. Rather cruel and machiavellian to say the least.

[reese]

So it must have been under BG’s instruction that Cindy’s outfit was placed in the shared dressing room with the knowledge of what Flo’s reaction was likely to be. Rather cruel and machiavellian to say the least.

We can't really be sure that Berry specifically told Morgan to put Cindy's tux in the girls' dressing room. From what Mary has written, Cindy was staying down the street at another hotel, Caesar's Palace. So to avoid any potential blow-ups, it might have made more sense that any new wardrobe be with her there but I have no idea.

[Boogiedown]

We can't really be sure that Berry specifically told Morgan to put Cindy's tux in the girls' dressing room. From what Mary has written, Cindy was staying down the street at another hotel, Caesar's Palace. So to avoid any potential blow-ups, it might have made more sense that any new wardrobe be with her there but I have no idea.

he ha they were hiding her. poor Cindy, what a messy situation she signed up for.

midnightman: That is true but for them to appear on those recordings and only get the pay they did, I think they were ripped off. Same with the Funks.

that's why the title of this thread uses the word "used'.

Motown seemed a company that would shamelessy use people ... right up until the moment they didn't.

[Ollie9]

We can't really be sure that Berry specifically told Morgan to put Cindy's tux in the girls' dressing room. From what Mary has written, Cindy was staying down the street at another hotel, Caesar's Palace. So to avoid any potential blow-ups, it might have made more sense that any new wardrobe be with her there but I have no idea.

It’s rather ironic that Cindy’s outfit should make its appearance just when the animosity between Flo and Berry was reaching its final conclusion. I guess we will never know for sure.

[Boogiedown]

It’s rather ironic that Cindy’s outfit should make its appearance just when the animosity between Flo and Berry was reaching its final conclusion. I guess we will never know for sure.

WHO put that costume there?:

the suspects:

the careless wardrober
the heartless Berry Gordy
the ever-conniving Mary Wilson
the fed-up Diana Ross
the desperate Florence Ballard
the lil' stinker Patti Labelle
or the sweet-on-the-outside master-planner Cindy Birdsong herself

????

[Ollie9]

WHO put that costume there?:

the suspects:

the careless wardrober
the heartless Berry Gordy
the ever-conniving Mary Wilson
the fed-up Diana Ross
the desperate Florence Ballard
the lil' stinker Patti Labelle
or the sweet-on-the-outside master-planner Cindy Birdsong herself

????

My money is on BG who instructed the wardrobe assistant to place it there following his contretemps with Flo regarding the name change.
Diana and Mary appeared to upset to be involved.

[Boogiedown]

Hmmm OK but I'd like to imagine Berry sticking his head out of his room and looking both ways down the hall before dashing over to the girls room to slip that bagged outfit in with the others himself.

but now I'm also thinking it could also have been troublemakers Sigfield and Roy who rumor has it were on standby to fill in should the Supremes gig fall through.

[lucky2012]

WHO put that costume there?:

the suspects:

the careless wardrober
the heartless Berry Gordy
the ever-conniving Mary Wilson
the fed-up Diana Ross
the desperate Florence Ballard
the lil' stinker Patti Labelle
or the sweet-on-the-outside master-planner Cindy Birdsong herself

????

I choose #1 the careless wardrober slightly over Berry Gordy. Maybe both, in cahoots.
I will let Diana, Mary & Florence off the hook.
Patti & Cindy are intriguing thoughts, though.

[sup_fan]

i've always been intrigued by these mystery outfits. as far as we know, nothing has ever surfaced of them in terms of pics. although we know of plenty of other outfits that made brief appearances, only to be done away with and never used again.

Also it's curious about the sizing issue. Cindy was wearing Flo's gowns and so interesting that they needed a different one in this situation. of course a tux [[which is supposedly what they were wearing) is a much different fit than a gown. Some of the girls' gowns were lose and flowing - like the white chiffon dresses worn at the Hollywood Bowl. but those red sequin R&H Today gowns, the white gowns with gold diagonal stripes - both of those were VERY form fitting and Cindy seems to have just fit into Flo's. of course it's possible they had some alterations made. or maybe by July 67 Flo didn't fit into those sequin gowns any more but Cindy did.

Brad - you have so much knowledge of the gowns and outfits, when you worked with them, did you find these 67 tuxes?