Would they still have used the Andantes if Flo stayed?

[johnjeb]

i've always been intrigued by these mystery outfits. as far as we know, nothing has ever surfaced of them in terms of pics. although we know of plenty of other outfits that made brief appearances, only to be done away with and never used again.

Also it's curious about the sizing issue. Cindy was wearing Flo's gowns and so interesting that they needed a different one in this situation. of course a tux [[which is supposedly what they were wearing) is a much different fit than a gown. Some of the girls' gowns were lose and flowing - like the white chiffon dresses worn at the Hollywood Bowl. but those red sequin R&H Today gowns, the white gowns with gold diagonal stripes - both of those were VERY form fitting and Cindy seems to have just fit into Flo's. of course it's possible they had some alterations made. or maybe by July 67 Flo didn't fit into those sequin gowns any more but Cindy did.

Brad - you have so much knowledge of the gowns and outfits, when you worked with them, did you find these 67 tuxes?

I saw DMC in September 1967 at The Carousel Theatre in Framingham, MA. They wore the tuxes. I have pictures. I was disappointed they wore the tuxes particularly since the opening act was The Temptations who also wore tuxes.

[Ollie9]

i've always been intrigued by these mystery outfits. as far as we know, nothing has ever surfaced of them in terms of pics. although we know of plenty of other outfits that made brief appearances, only to be done away with and never used again.

Also it's curious about the sizing issue. Cindy was wearing Flo's gowns and so interesting that they needed a different one in this situation. of course a tux [[which is supposedly what they were wearing) is a much different fit than a gown. Some of the girls' gowns were lose and flowing - like the white chiffon dresses worn at the Hollywood Bowl. but those red sequin R&H Today gowns, the white gowns with gold diagonal stripes - both of those were VERY form fitting and Cindy seems to have just fit into Flo's. of course it's possible they had some alterations made. or maybe by July 67 Flo didn't fit into those sequin gowns any more but Cindy did.

Brad - you have so much knowledge of the gowns and outfits, when you worked with them, did you find these 67 tuxes?

Probably the same tuxedo they wore on the Ed Sullivan show in 68 performing “I Get A Kick Out Of You” with Cindy.

[sup_fan]

I saw DMC in September 1967 at The Carousel Theatre in Framingham, MA. They wore the tuxes. I have pictures. I was disappointed they wore the tuxes particularly since the opening act was The Temptations who also wore tuxes.

oh wow!! very cool!!! maybe you can find the pics and scan them in

any other memories of the show? songs? did they eventually change into other outfits?

[sup_fan]

Probably the same tuxedo they wore on the Ed Sullivan show in 68 performing “I Get A Kick Out Of You” with Cindy.

oddly enough there are a few pics of rehearsals from this show. one shows the girls in the tux coats and hats but long black skirt! another shows them just in the pants and waistcoats. and a final one shows them in the tuxes but diana is wearing an oversized black coat. M and C seem to be in "normal" coats. it's like they were continuing to rehearse and Diana's coat wasn't done yet but she was cold and needed something to cover up in

[Ollie9]

oddly enough there are a few pics of rehearsals from this show. one shows the girls in the tux coats and hats but long black skirt! another shows them just in the pants and waistcoats. and a final one shows them in the tuxes but diana is wearing an oversized black coat. M and C seem to be in "normal" coats. it's like they were continuing to rehearse and Diana's coat wasn't done yet but she was cold and needed something to cover up in

My goodness, i wonder what was going down in that seconded pic. Cindy with hands on hips is looking at Diana like she about to knock her out. Mary looks rather concerned.

[bradsupremes]

The tuxedos worn on The Ed Sullivan Show were provided by the CBS Costume Department. They were not the same ones worn when Florence was fired. Those were styled differently.

The reason for the baggy black pants and Diana's oversized coat in the Sullivan rehearsal shots were likely due to the tuxes being mended, etc.

[jobeterob]

My goodness - there’s nothing left of Diana in pic 3

[sup_fan]

The tuxedos worn on The Ed Sullivan Show were provided by the CBS Costume Department. They were not the same ones worn when Florence was fired. Those were styled differently.

The reason for the baggy black pants and Diana's oversized coat in the Sullivan rehearsal shots were likely due to the tuxes being mended, etc.

with the larger pics here [[versus on my phone) i wonder if the pics i'm referring to as skirts are actually full pants - bell bottoms or palazzo pants. then they maybe tailored them in more.

[sup_fan]

My goodness, i wonder what was going down in that seconded pic. Cindy with hands on hips is looking at Diana like she about to knock her out. Mary looks rather concerned.

my guess is this is just a very candid rehearsal shot. this was a complex routine - none of the girls to my knowledge had any tap dancing experience. and while they're certainly not doing a routine as complex as Gene Kelly, this had to be challenging. plus i'm sure they had only a short time to perfect it.

wasn't this the same Sullivan show a Shame and the 2nd Love Child? That puts this as a Jan 5, 1969 performance. later that month they were back off to Vegas for another run at the Frontier. They'd just spent most of Nov touring Europe. Dec was pretty much nonstop recording in the studio doing Shame, young folks, i'm so glad, i'll set you free, composer and others. plus they usually did a run in Miami over christmas.

[lucky2012]

my guess is this is just a very candid rehearsal shot. this was a complex routine - none of the girls to my knowledge had any tap dancing experience. and while they're certainly not doing a routine as complex as Gene Kelly, this had to be challenging. plus i'm sure they had only a short time to perfect it.

wasn't this the same Sullivan show a Shame and the 2nd Love Child? That puts this as a Jan 5, 1969 performance. later that month they were back off to Vegas for another run at the Frontier. They'd just spent most of Nov touring Europe. Dec was pretty much nonstop recording in the studio doing Shame, young folks, i'm so glad, i'll set you free, composer and others. plus they usually did a run in Miami over christmas.

I'm sure this was a candid shot, a quick, intimate glimpse of the rehearsal. Cindy & Mary are taking a breather to rest/reflect, and Diana looks like she is remembering/concentrating.

I'll Set You Free was already on the Love Child album in November, unless there were subsequent later sessions.

[jobucats]

my guess is this is just a very candid rehearsal shot. this was a complex routine - none of the girls to my knowledge had any tap dancing experience. and while they're certainly not doing a routine as complex as Gene Kelly, this had to be challenging. plus i'm sure they had only a short time to perfect it.

wasn't this the same Sullivan show a Shame and the 2nd Love Child? That puts this as a Jan 5, 1969 performance. later that month they were back off to Vegas for another run at the Frontier. They'd just spent most of Nov touring Europe. Dec was pretty much nonstop recording in the studio doing Shame, young folks, i'm so glad, i'll set you free, composer and others. plus they usually did a run in Miami over christmas.

Thank you, Sup Fan, for sharing these. It was just yesterday that I was wondering who came up with these segments like the Irvin Berlin segment, the Fats Waller segment, etc. I know that Millie, Rose, & Mame were often performed 'on the road'; however, even then, did they didn't use anything close to the Sullivan choreography. Did the Sullivan people initiate the ideas, come up with the arrangements and the choreography or did the Motown factory do the majority of the planning? Were these numbers something that were first presented to the ladies once they arrived in NY and begin rehearsals? How many days were they 'tied' in NYC up rehearsing these intricate performances?

[RanRan79]

Regarding the story of Flo's last performance, the story as told by the Morgan guy just isn't the way the story has been relayed by either Flo or Mary, as far as I can tell. Seems like if Flo had discovered Cindy's outfit she would have said that when recalling the night's events. Same with Mary. I have to wonder how much of his recollection is influenced by Dreamgirls. There doesn't seem to have been much, if any, information shared publicly about that night prior to Dreamgirls, so that would be some awfully creepy coincidence.

[sup_fan]

Thank you, Sup Fan, for sharing these. It was just yesterday that I was wondering who came up with these segments like the Irvin Berlin segment, the Fats Waller segment, etc. I know that Millie, Rose, & Mame were often performed 'on the road'; however, even then, did they didn't use anything close to the Sullivan choreography. Did the Sullivan people initiate the ideas, come up with the arrangements and the choreography or did the Motown factory do the majority of the planning? Were these numbers something that were first presented to the ladies once they arrived in NY and begin rehearsals? How many days were they 'tied' in NYC up rehearsing these intricate performances?

i would guess the Gil had a heavy part in developing their tv show content, probably Maurice King and Harvey Fuqua too. Gil was probably more focused on what they did for their club work but he was in the Artist Dev dept too and would have been collaborating with Maurice and Harvey. as we see, some of their tv material made it into the stage act.

for tv, a lot of it was lip synced. Millie/Rose/Mame was all lip synced by all 3 women. and as such, they were able to do more intricate choreography, costumes, have the set pieces and the Don McKayle dancers. they actually don't do too much dancing here but they do adjust their positions around the Sullivan stage and that raised set piece

the did More for quite a few years in the act and they retained some of the choreography from the Sullivan performance. about the only thing they dropped was shuffling the lineup.

the I Get A Kick medley was specifically designed to have them dance a bit more so i can see why it wasn't incorporated into the stage show. although it's a great medley and would have done fine just having them sing. probably just as easy though to do Lady/Let's get away.

most of the live show material was done on tv - More, Lady/let's get away, Somewhere, You're nobody, impossible dream, rock a bye your baby, symphony medley [[although it gets altered). Surprisingly Queen of the House wasn't done on tv - it's cute and hokey and would have been appealing to the audience. They did a very different version of Let There Be Love on the Andy Williams show vs what they did live on stage. Same with Aquarius/Sunshine as Diana did this solo on tv

i don't think the Beatle's medley was on tv, nor Sam Cooke. nor Put on a Happy, Boy from Ipanema, Big Spender or Make Someone Happy [[although i thought that was on something like Mike Douglas)

[jim aka jtigre99]

Seeing the photos of DMC in tuxedoes, reminds me of 1977 when Mary, Scherrie & Susaye had worn tuxedoes with sequins and sequined skullcaps on Merv Griffin's show. I think I remember that some people seem nonplussed over those outfits. As you can see, the group did wear tuxedoes prior with DRATS.

[sup_fan]

Seeing the photos of DMC in tuxedoes, reminds me of 1977 when Mary, Scherrie & Susaye had worn tuxedoes with sequins and sequined skullcaps on Merv Griffin's show. I think I remember that some people seem nonplussed over those outfits. As you can see, the group did wear tuxedoes prior with DRATS.

MSS wore them on Udo Live too. when they were on Merv they did 2 songs. Driving Wheel with the tuxes and skull caps. and then Let Yourself Go with the tuxes and caps but the ascots were removed from the tuxes - the white shirt front. so the girls appeared to be wearing the sequin vests under the tux coats. I thought that look was pretty hot! and more contemporary.

my biggest gripe with the Scherrie era outfits was that they weren't on trend with what top designers were making for women. especially for women to wear to a disco. look at the wrap skirt designs that Diane von Furstenberg created and what a rage it was. the sups did that wrap red sequin gown and it was modern looking. but then there were all of those massive chiffon ball gowns which weren't.

or look at the stunning outfits Halston was doing. he was totally redesigning what women wear. and even if the girls couldn't afford Halston, at least have your design take the Halston look into consideration.

[floyjoy678]

Regarding the story of Flo's last performance, the story as told by the Morgan guy just isn't the way the story has been relayed by either Flo or Mary, as far as I can tell. Seems like if Flo had discovered Cindy's outfit she would have said that when recalling the night's events. Same with Mary. I have to wonder how much of his recollection is influenced by Dreamgirls. There doesn't seem to have been much, if any, information shared publicly about that night prior to Dreamgirls, so that would be some awfully creepy coincidence.

Has anyone else at Motown ever written about Flo's last night besides Diana, Mary and Flo?

All three of them have all mentioned the following...
1. The tuxedo costumes, Flo's being too tight
2. Flo went on stage drunk
3. They were at the Flamingo Hotel
4. There was a big blow up afterwards in the dressing room between them [[although I think Mary was the only one who wrote this one)

[sup_fan]

Has anyone else at Motown ever written about Flo's last night besides Diana, Mary and Flo?

All three of them have all mentioned the following...
1. The tuxedo costumes, Flo's being too tight
2. Flo went on stage drunk
3. They were at the Flamingo Hotel
4. There was a big blow up afterwards in the dressing room between them [[although I think Mary was the only one who wrote this one)

Randy's books include the story too - he's written 3 books on diana over the years and all include some version of this same story.

the last book went into a bit more detail, including the story of the Cindy tag on the garment bag with her tux. it starts that the day before was Flo's bday and they had a party for her that everyone [[except berry) attended and then all went out dancing and partying. the next day the girls had a brief AM rehearsal and then each went back to their suites to sleep.

that evening flo arrived in the dressing room first and to people there, she appeared to be still hung over or newly slightly inebriated. there was the confrontation with the tailor about the Cindy tag on the garment bag and that flo exploded. the book also confirms that Flo has stated that she did have some drinks that night.

the story continues to D and M arrive late to the dressing rooms to prepare and would have noticed Flo's angry mood but didn't have time to do much other than get some makeup on, get dressed and get on stage. During the show Flo was apparently off her mark, singing flat and looking a bit disheveled. supposedly i think her wig was a bit askew. during the comedy lines of You're Nobody, Flo would say "and honey, fat is where it's at" in reply to Diana's line of Thin Is In. this time Flo exposed her stomach by sticking it out to emphasize the line, and Randy again states that Flo has confirmed that she did this.

after the show flo goes to the dressing room and is confronted by D and Berry. both are very upset about her performance. in Randy's book, he said that Mary just went directly to her suite and didn't go to the dressing room at all

then the story is that the next morning B and flo have a heated phone call where he tells her she's fired and he wants her out of Vegas. that she cannot go onstage with the sups. Flo tells him to F off and that, yes she WILL go onstage. throughout the morning apparently Flo and one of Berry's sisters [[maybe ester or gwen) is on and off the phone with flo and confirms that, yes flo has a contract for this appearance and if she is willing and able, Berry can't forbid her to appear with the group. Flo finally sort of breaks down and figures to hell with it - Berry will be riding my ass and why bother. i'll just go home. And then Joe Schaeffer drives her to the airport and she flies back to Detroit

in th

[reese]

Has anyone else at Motown ever written about Flo's last night besides Diana, Mary and Flo?

All three of them have all mentioned the following...
1. The tuxedo costumes, Flo's being too tight
2. Flo went on stage drunk
3. They were at the Flamingo Hotel
4. There was a big blow up afterwards in the dressing room between them [[although I think Mary was the only one who wrote this one)

Tony Turner wrote about it in ALL THAT GLITTERED. According to him, Flo said the shows in Vegas were going well but she felt a weird vibe and was keeping to herself. After the first show, she went back to her suite because the girls were scheduled to wear the same gown for the second show. While there, she turned on the radio and heard the DJ announce "REFLECTIONS" as the new release by Diana Ross and the Supremes. Flo flipped and went out into the hallway screaming for Berry Gordy and Diana, then went back into her room to wait for the second show.

When she came down to wait in the wings, Diana, Mary, and Cindy parade past her in matching gowns. Berry then comes up behind her and tells her she's fired and if she goes onstage, he will throw her off. One of the staff members encouraged her to go on anyway but Flo said she lost all of her fight watching DMC singing her songs onstage.

As with all books, you have to consider the source. And this story has a big hole in it, considering that "REFLECTIONS" wasn't released until almost a month later.

[floyjoy678]

Did Berry write about this night in To Be Loved? I do remember he wrote about Florence's leaving the group but can't remember exactly what he said.

I also remember Smokey talking about Flo leaving in his book but remember he more talks about blaming Tommy for getting in Flo's ear.

[Boogiedown]

great breakdown of events, folks.

good gawd they call attention to Flo's "fatness" as part of the routine ....yet she's over the top by playing off it??

No wonder Diana doesn't want to relive those times. What she did to Flo is shameful, And Mary doesn't get a pass either.

[sup_fan]

great breakdown of events, folks.

good gawd they call attention to Flo's "fatness" as part of the routine ....yet she's over the top by playing off it??

No wonder Diana doesn't want to relive those times. What she did to Flo is shameful, And Mary doesn't get a pass either.

there's the recorded interview that DMF did - it think they released it on a promo 45 or something back in the day. but then on 25th Anniversary they released it. and on the More Hits EE and some others, we've since received alternate takes of the interview. they recorded it again and again and the girls started to get a bit slap happy

MARY makes digs at Flo's weight in the interview. and this was much much earlier than the july 67 episode or the Fat Is Where Its At line

at one point in the interview diana talks about their wanting to get into broadway and tv and movies because they're all hams. and mary says flo is shaped like a ham! lol

in another interview [[i think - or maybe same one but another version) they talk about how skinny diane is or something. and mary blabs out that Flo is a 12 or something lol


in the earliest of pictures, Flo is a bigger frame but really quite skinny. like the pic of DMF on the Lloyd Thaxton show promoting WDOLG and wearing the red fringe dresses. flo is a bigger size than Diana but still very slender.

as you get into 65 and 66, flo is more full figured. I don't think she was ever obese like Nell Carter or something. but look at flo in Sept 66 doing YCHL on Sullivan. she still has a general hourglass figure but her profile and body size is considerably bigger than Diana's [[who was also at her most unhealthy, rail-thin too). then look at pics of Flo in 67 that were in the Sing HDH EE. pics from the Coconut Grove and all. Flo is getting a bit of a double chin and is much more full figured than before.

so yes, flo was also just a larger frame and build than diana or even mary. as the girls grew up, i'm guessing Flo's natural body would be more voluptuous and larger and fuller figured than diana. but flo added to this with her own weight issues.

[Ollie9]

great breakdown of events, folks.

good gawd they call attention to Flo's "fatness" as part of the routine ....yet she's over the top by playing off it??

No wonder Diana doesn't want to relive those times. What she did to Flo is shameful, And Mary doesn't get a pass either.

The events surrounding what happened to Flo will always be a major blot on the history of the Supremes and Motown at large.

[sup_fan]

The events surrounding what happened to Flo will always be a major blot on the history of the Supremes and Motown at large.

even Flo in later years mentioned that if she had the chance to do it all over again, she too might make some very different decisions. Flo was very much an active participant in the whole situation, not simply a victim. many of her actions were deliberate so she absolutely shares a significant part of the blame.

as do diana, mary, berry, tommy, gil, harvey, maurice, mrs powell, etc. this was a wildly complicated situation involving mental health, addiction, politics, money, career growth, fame, hard work, talent and more. Flo was already missing performances and recording sessions by May and June 65. that's not even 1 year after they hit #1 with WDOLG. and it didn't culminate until July 67. so for over 2 years things were not working 100%. that's a long time for issues to develop, problems to arise, animosity to grow, hurt feelings to fester, etc.

[Boogiedown]

even Flo in later years mentioned that if she had the chance to do it all over again, she too might make some very different decisions. Flo was very much an active participant in the whole situation, not simply a victim. many of her actions were deliberate so she absolutely shares a significant part of the blame.

as do diana, mary, berry, tommy, gil, harvey, maurice, mrs powell, etc. this was a wildly complicated situation involving mental health, addiction, politics, money, career growth, fame, hard work, talent and more. Flo was already missing performances and recording sessions by May and June 65. that's not even 1 year after they hit #1 with WDOLG. and it didn't culminate until July 67. so for over 2 years things were not working 100%. that's a long time for issues to develop, problems to arise, animosity to grow, hurt feelings to fester, etc.

I think you're saying it exactly right. To pluck three high school girls out of a simple environment and turn them into international superstars almost overnight and expect the same results from each of the three .... well I wouldn't take the odds of that working out at 1000 to 1. That Diana handled it so well was in itself unlikely, much less all three. And who can blame Diana for not wanting to be dragged down.

Has there ever been a thread on the differences of these three as Supremes? For instance Mary seemed best suited as she loved the wardrobing , the travel [I think] , the glamour. Ross realized best the full potential of what was happening, and Flo was perhaps the one that was most overwhelmed.

[floyjoy678]

I can say from working in healthcare, Flo displayed classic symptoms of bipolar disorder.

Also sup_fan, in her defense Flo had a bad flu when she was absent in June of 1965.

[sup_fan]

I think you're saying it exactly right. To pluck three high school girls out of a simple environment and turn them into international superstars almost overnight and expect the same results from each of the three .... well I wouldn't take the odds of that working out at 1000 to 1. That Diana handled it so well was in itself unlikely, much less all three. And who can blame Diana for not wanting to be dragged down.

Has there ever been a thread on the differences of these three as Supremes? For instance Mary seemed best suited as she loved the wardrobing , the travel [I think] , the glamour. Ross realized best the full potential of what was happening, and Flo was perhaps the one that was most overwhelmed.

and one can argue maybe diana DIDN'T handle it well. while i don't believe every specifically diagnosed, even she has admitted in retrospect that she had some sort of eating disorder. perhaps a form of anorexia. and that's not something to just sluff off. that's a horribly serious disease. i believe it is considered [[at least partially) a mental health condition too. there's also been speculation and that she was unable to sleep for more than an hour or two. that her mind was so stressed and so "constantly going" that she couldn't come down. it's amazing that she didn't get into drugs like so many other stars - something to pick herself up and something to bring her down.

so while she didn't example crumble the way flo did, she certainly had her share of problems.

[Boogiedown]

and one can argue maybe diana DIDN'T handle it well. while i don't believe every specifically diagnosed, even she has admitted in retrospect that she had some sort of eating disorder. perhaps a form of anorexia. and that's not something to just sluff off. that's a horribly serious disease. i believe it is considered [[at least partially) a mental health condition too. there's also been speculation and that she was unable to sleep for more than an hour or two. that her mind was so stressed and so "constantly going" that she couldn't come down. it's amazing that she didn't get into drugs like so many other stars - something to pick herself up and something to bring her down.

so while she didn't example crumble the way flo did, she certainly had her share of problems.

But I don't think Diana ever thought "I don't want to do this." Where as this was not as true for Flo. [speculating]

[Ollie9]

Despite all the doom and gloom scenarios, i feel sure the three women had many wonderful times together. living the kind of life they could only have dreamed of back in the Brewster Projects. Flo herself referred to the groups trip to the orient as being “just beautiful”.

[sup_fan]

Despite all the doom and gloom scenarios, i feel sure the three women had many wonderful times together. living the kind of life they could only have dreamed of back in the Brewster Projects. Flo herself referred to the groups trip to the orient as being “just beautiful”.

you're absolutely correct. we tend to discuss the problems more than the happy times. all 3 women really cared about each other, they had a lot of fun, laughed, goofed off, were silly 20 year olds and all that.

[Boogiedown]

A large part of what makes their story compelling is that they found each other, they are of their own making.
They approached the label as a predetermined group and stayed with it until it happened.

They weren't fabricated and thrown together within the walls of Motown.

[RanRan79]

as you get into 65 and 66, flo is more full figured. I don't think she was ever obese like Nell Carter or something. but look at flo in Sept 66 doing YCHL on Sullivan. she still has a general hourglass figure but her profile and body size is considerably bigger than Diana's [[who was also at her most unhealthy, rail-thin too). then look at pics of Flo in 67 that were in the Sing HDH EE. pics from the Coconut Grove and all. Flo is getting a bit of a double chin and is much more full figured than before.

so yes, flo was also just a larger frame and build than diana or even mary. as the girls grew up, i'm guessing Flo's natural body would be more voluptuous and larger and fuller figured than diana. but flo added to this with her own weight issues.

Flo never had a double chin.

Yes, she was often much fuller figured that her singing partners, but again, she had a gorgeous shape. She was never fat, overweight, or sloppy and thus her weight should have never been a topic for ridicule within the group or the company.


May 1967


June 1967


Fat where?

[blackguy69]

I never thought she was fat but let’s get real she did gain weight within a year to go from an 8 to a 12 is noticeable. as we all know any weight gained and these gowns suffer.

[sup_fan]

Several books have mentioned that when they asked Flo back she went on a bit of a crash diet. Trying to lose weight and clean up her act a bit. Randy specifically mentions this in his last book. So June 67 might not have been her heaviest ever

Here are some pics from early 67 where her face chin and neck are more full

[sup_fan]

berry didn't fire Flo simply because she was "fat." as we have all discussed, she wasn't grossly obese. even in the 70s, mary talks about how the girls all always struggle to keep their figure for the gowns. touring and traveling makes it hard to eat healthy. even today. so if it was simply a matter of flo's weight fluctuating, Berry probably would have made some nasty comments but wouldn't have fired her

the issue was that she was becoming a massive corporate liability. the 3 girls were expected to work constantly. flo had been continually missing recording sessions, interviews and pr events, tours. and then the disastrous events of 67 where she was too drunk to go on stage [[forcing the girls to do the duet show) and drunk on stage in Vegas.

everyone talks about how massively stressful all of the work and touring and everything was. both D and M have stated that you had to want this and want this VERY BAD in order to endure it all. F just didn't have that same level of drive. and there would be 1000 reasons for this but whatever the reason[[s), it was adding so much additional stress and turmoil to an already wildly stressful situation. everyone involved tried to help solve the situation as best they could. Berry too. he didn't want to just get rid of flo. but eventually, one by one, everyone realized it just wasn't going to work

[Boogiedown]

berry didn't fire Flo simply because she was "fat." as we have all discussed, she wasn't grossly obese. even in the 70s, mary talks about how the girls all always struggle to keep their figure for the gowns. touring and traveling makes it hard to eat healthy. even today. so if it was simply a matter of flo's weight fluctuating, Berry probably would have made some nasty comments but wouldn't have fired her

the issue was that she was becoming a massive corporate liability. the 3 girls were expected to work constantly. flo had been continually missing recording sessions, interviews and pr events, tours. and then the disastrous events of 67 where she was too drunk to go on stage [[forcing the girls to do the duet show) and drunk on stage in Vegas.

everyone talks about how massively stressful all of the work and touring and everything was. both D and M have stated that you had to want this and want this VERY BAD in order to endure it all. F just didn't have that same level of drive. and there would be 1000 reasons for this but whatever the reason[[s), it was adding so much additional stress and turmoil to an already wildly stressful situation. everyone involved tried to help solve the situation as best they could. Berry too. he didn't want to just get rid of flo. but eventually, one by one, everyone realized it just wasn't going to work

It must have been quite a ride. Flo was wrapped up in this mutual dream the three had, to become these super famous singers. Then lo and behold, it comes true.

Now you aren't "trying" to be something .....you are there, your dream has become your reality. And this is now you, everyday of your life, with no end in sight...and with no way to get away from it. I can easily see the fear that goes along with this... the sense of being overwhelmed by the eternal expectations to perform and to deliver, day in-day out.

the dream come true is also a nightmare....

[sup_fan]

It must have been quite a ride. Flo was wrapped up in this mutual dream the three had, to become these super famous singers. Then lo and behold, it comes true.

Now you aren't "trying" to be something .....you are there, your dream has become your reality. And this is now you, everyday of your life, with no end in sight...and with no way to get away from it. I can easily see the fear that goes along with this... the sense of being overwhelmed by the eternal expectations to perform and to deliver, day in-day out.

the dream come true is also a nightmare....

as they say, be careful what you wish for.

both D and M have long stressed that, while the public seeing the glitter and glamour, the business side of things is the most critical. the hard work behind the scenes, the non-stop activity, etc.

some writers have said that success was frankly the worst thing to happen to Flo. she was able to deal with things better at the slower pace, without most of the politics and seamy underbelly of the entertainment world.

I've always wondered if Flo had simply stayed with the marvelettes, what might have happened for her. of course Flo had a really strong stage personality, which is what helped the supremes become THE SUPREMES. within the structure of the M's, not sure how that would have worked. maybe she would be a potential 3rd lead singer?

[RanRan79]

I never thought she was fat but let’s get real she did gain weight within a year to go from an 8 to a 12 is noticeable. as we all know any weight gained and these gowns suffer.

I agree that their weight would affect the gowns, but that's about it. I still don't believe anybody watching them on TV or sitting in the audience at their show thought "Damn, that one on the end sure has gotten big!"

[RanRan79]

as they say, be careful what you wish for.

both D and M have long stressed that, while the public seeing the glitter and glamour, the business side of things is the most critical. the hard work behind the scenes, the non-stop activity, etc.

some writers have said that success was frankly the worst thing to happen to Flo. she was able to deal with things better at the slower pace, without most of the politics and seamy underbelly of the entertainment world.

I've always wondered if Flo had simply stayed with the marvelettes, what might have happened for her. of course Flo had a really strong stage personality, which is what helped the supremes become THE SUPREMES. within the structure of the M's, not sure how that would have worked. maybe she would be a potential 3rd lead singer?

But it wasn't success that got to Flo, it was the inner workings of the group and the tension between her and the boss. Florence worked as hard as Diana and Mary. There doesn't appear to be any complaints about her work ethic prior to when things took a turn as 1966 moved on.


Exactly how many recording sessions is Flo supposed to have missed? We know she missed "Mr. Sandman", "Sincerely" and "Mother Dear" [[version 1) in 1965 [[that's either one whole session or two), and then we know she missed like two or three sessions in July of 1966. And we know she missed "Reflections" in 1967. We know these are "missed" because Mary is present. What we don't know is why Flo is missing. Also, considering how often the group recorded, a handful of missed sessions over a two year period certainly is not a case of Flo habitually missing recording sessions, though the missed sessions in July 66, in the midst of the group starting to have some serious issues within, would have undoubtedly added to any point of contention Gordy would have had with Flo.


I believe there were times that Flo voiced her concerns over how often they worked without a break. Mary has made similar claims. Diana was collapsing and fainting all over the place and was so stressed out that she couldn't eat. Whether or not she ever voiced a concern for a break, I don't know, but clearly she needed it. Those girls were being worked to death and I don't think it should be a mark against Flo that she had sense enough to know something had to give.


So much of Flo's issues seem to focus on the direction the group moved in being less of a group and more of a vehicle for Diana Ross' solo career. Gordy was the captain of this ship. At the end of the day it all should fall at his feet. He could have very easily figured out a way to keep Flo, and also Mary, happy while figuring out a way to launch Diana. He chose to not care less about what Flo and Mary wanted and then wanted to be angry that Florence lashed out or "acted up" in response.


Success wasn't the worst thing to happen to Florence. Gordy's view that Flo should just show up, shut up and do what she's told is the worst thing to happen to Florence. Well that and the heart attack she had.

[Ollie9]

But it wasn't success that got to Flo, it was the inner workings of the group and the tension between her and the boss. Florence worked as hard as Diana and Mary. There doesn't appear to be any complaints about her work ethic prior to when things took a turn as 1966 moved on.


Exactly how many recording sessions is Flo supposed to have missed? We know she missed "Mr. Sandman", "Sincerely" and "Mother Dear" [[version 1) in 1965 [[that's either one whole session or two), and then we know she missed like two or three sessions in July of 1966. And we know she missed "Reflections" in 1967. We know these are "missed" because Mary is present. What we don't know is why Flo is missing. Also, considering how often the group recorded, a handful of missed sessions over a two year period certainly is not a case of Flo habitually missing recording sessions, though the missed sessions in July 66, in the midst of the group starting to have some serious issues within, would have undoubtedly added to any point of contention Gordy would have had with Flo.


I believe there were times that Flo voiced her concerns over how often they worked without a break. Mary has made similar claims. Diana was collapsing and fainting all over the place and was so stressed out that she couldn't eat. Whether or not she ever voiced a concern for a break, I don't know, but clearly she needed it. Those girls were being worked to death and I don't think it should be a mark against Flo that she had sense enough to know something had to give.


So much of Flo's issues seem to focus on the direction the group moved in being less of a group and more of a vehicle for Diana Ross' solo career. Gordy was the captain of this ship. At the end of the day it all should fall at his feet. He could have very easily figured out a way to keep Flo, and also Mary, happy while figuring out a way to launch Diana. He chose to not care less about what Flo and Mary wanted and then wanted to be angry that Florence lashed out or "acted up" in response.


Success wasn't the worst thing to happen to Florence. Gordy's view that Flo should just show up, shut up and do what she's told is the worst thing to happen to Florence. Well that and the heart attack she had.

Some extremely good points made here.

[sup_fan]

But it wasn't success that got to Flo, it was the inner workings of the group and the tension between her and the boss. Florence worked as hard as Diana and Mary. There doesn't appear to be any complaints about her work ethic prior to when things took a turn as 1966 moved on.


Success wasn't the worst thing to happen to Florence. Gordy's view that Flo should just show up, shut up and do what she's told is the worst thing to happen to Florence. Well that and the heart attack she had.

with any situation, extreme success is going to layer in significant politics. everyone involved with that success is going to want to preserve their role in the matter and to continue receiving the payouts. that can be in music, sports, business - any field. not just limited to singing groups.

M wrote quite a bit about how flo just absolutely could not and would not play the game. she wasn't able to just bop along with a company line and pitch like M and D could. Flo had attitude and sometimes that's not the right way to approach situations. And Flo has been quoted as acknowledging that she had no problem telling people to go to hell and that maybe she could have tried some different tactics.

[sup_fan]

Exactly how many recording sessions is Flo supposed to have missed? We know she missed "Mr. Sandman", "Sincerely" and "Mother Dear" [[version 1) in 1965 [[that's either one whole session or two), and then we know she missed like two or three sessions in July of 1966. And we know she missed "Reflections" in 1967. We know these are "missed" because Mary is present. What we don't know is why Flo is missing. Also, considering how often the group recorded, a handful of missed sessions over a two year period certainly is not a case of Flo habitually missing recording sessions, though the missed sessions in July 66, in the midst of the group starting to have some serious issues within, would have undoubtedly added to any point of contention Gordy would have had with Flo.


I believe there were times that Flo voiced her concerns over how often they worked without a break. Mary has made similar claims. Diana was collapsing and fainting all over the place and was so stressed out that she couldn't eat. Whether or not she ever voiced a concern for a break, I don't know, but clearly she needed it. Those girls were being worked to death and I don't think it should be a mark against Flo that she had sense enough to know something had to give.

of course none of us know how many times Flo missed things. perhaps they WERE going to do backing vocals by F and M for Any Girl In Love but Flo didn't show up. totally speculating here. maybe some of the times the sessions were just cancelled and when they were rescheduled, Flo was there. or maybe when they were scheduled for a session from 10 AM - 4 pm, Flo showed up at 11:30. again, i'm just guessing here. but what D, M, B and Randy all mention in their books is how she was becoming increasingly undependable. late or not showing up for sessions, appointments, interviews, etc, etc. If it was just 2 recording sessions over 4 years, i'd agree with you. But because all of these sources highlight this issue, I'm assuming there must have been more than we're aware of.

these sources also highlight the impact of these behavioral issues. as you mention, the girls had 0 time off, Diana was collapsing, the stress was totally over the top. all of the extremely hard work was more than enough to take it's toll on anyone. but then Flo's mood swings and lack of dependability just compounded things.

[floyjoy678]

I forget which book it was in, I think it was one of Randy's, but apparently there was a small tour planned in Europe in 1966 that they had to cancel because of Flo recently not showing up to the recording session for "He". Mary showed up and Diana was getting snippy about her being the only dependable one and Berry put her in her place saying that Mary showed up too.

How many times did Marlene replace Flo on stage? Was it just those shows in June of 1965? Or did she replace her as well in April of 1967 after the New Orleans incident?

[sup_fan]

I forget which book it was in, I think it was one of Randy's, but apparently there was a small tour planned in Europe in 1966 that they had to cancel because of Flo recently not showing up to the recording session for "He". Mary showed up and Diana was getting snippy about her being the only dependable one and Berry put her in her place saying that Mary showed up too.

How many times did Marlene replace Flo on stage? Was it just those shows in June of 1965? Or did she replace her as well in April of 1967 after the New Orleans incident?

the schedule i have for the girls at this time is:

5/31/65 - Steel Pier. i don't know if this was a 1 day appearance or a run. i always thought it was typically a run but not sure
6/13 - Cobo Hall Detroit
6/18 - Grosse Point Country Club debutante party
6/19 Convention Hall in Philadelphia
6/22 - Basin Street South, Boston
6/28 - What's Happening Baby tv show [[not sure if this was live or taped prior)
7/5 - To Tell The Truth
7/9 - 18 Riptide Club, Wildwood NJ
7/22 - ABC's Nightlife
7/23 - 25 Concord Resort Hotel, Kiamesha Lake NY
7/24 - Jackie Gleason show
7/28 - Tonight Show
7/29 - 8/15 Copa

my understanding is that Marlene covered for Flo in June at the party at Grosse Point Country Club because we have the pics of her onstage with M and D. and then also at the Philly gig on the 19th and the Boston on 22nd. After that, i'm not sure but we've been told that Flo was at the Copa.

[RanRan79]

with any situation, extreme success is going to layer in significant politics. everyone involved with that success is going to want to preserve their role in the matter and to continue receiving the payouts. that can be in music, sports, business - any field. not just limited to singing groups.

M wrote quite a bit about how flo just absolutely could not and would not play the game. she wasn't able to just bop along with a company line and pitch like M and D could. Flo had attitude and sometimes that's not the right way to approach situations. And Flo has been quoted as acknowledging that she had no problem telling people to go to hell and that maybe she could have tried some different tactics.

Flo seemed to bop along just fine until things started moving in a direction from what she signed up for. The three Supremes came into this thing with a goal in mind and achieved it. Along the way new ideas and goals were introduced, as one would expect, but I suppose it's a horrible thing to introduce an idea into a unit where the unit is being used to push the personal goals of one part of the unit, while the other two parts are being diminished. Not only is that unfair, I say it's cruel.

Yes, Mary decided to go along with it. Diana absolutely went along with it because it meant her personal goals were being worked on. But let's see a show of hands of those who believe that if Gordy had turned his attention to Florence and placed Diana in the "afterthought" category, that she would have just gone along with it? Nobody? Yeah, me either.

[RanRan79]

of course none of us know how many times Flo missed things. perhaps they WERE going to do backing vocals by F and M for Any Girl In Love but Flo didn't show up. totally speculating here. maybe some of the times the sessions were just cancelled and when they were rescheduled, Flo was there. or maybe when they were scheduled for a session from 10 AM - 4 pm, Flo showed up at 11:30. again, i'm just guessing here. but what D, M, B and Randy all mention in their books is how she was becoming increasingly undependable. late or not showing up for sessions, appointments, interviews, etc, etc. If it was just 2 recording sessions over 4 years, i'd agree with you. But because all of these sources highlight this issue, I'm assuming there must have been more than we're aware of.

these sources also highlight the impact of these behavioral issues. as you mention, the girls had 0 time off, Diana was collapsing, the stress was totally over the top. all of the extremely hard work was more than enough to take it's toll on anyone. but then Flo's mood swings and lack of dependability just compounded things.

I have to agree with just about all of this. However, what came first, the chicken or the egg? It seems to me that this increase in unreliability was the effect of the changing tide of the group. Flo's disillusionment with the direction resulted in some bad decisions. Perhaps this could have all been remedied if Gordy had sat the group down and done all that he could to make sure Flo and Mary not only felt a part of the decisions, but were also getting their personal shine. It seems to never have occurred to him that Flo wouldn't have wanted to be used as a prop in her own group.

[RanRan79]

I forget which book it was in, I think it was one of Randy's, but apparently there was a small tour planned in Europe in 1966 that they had to cancel because of Flo recently not showing up to the recording session for "He". Mary showed up and Diana was getting snippy about her being the only dependable one and Berry put her in her place saying that Mary showed up too.

How many times did Marlene replace Flo on stage? Was it just those shows in June of 1965? Or did she replace her as well in April of 1967 after the New Orleans incident?

After the New Orleans incident, Marlene was brought in to finish the dates. Then Flo was fired, and Cindy was brought in for the Hollywood Bowl.

[Boogiedown]

its sort of like an ensemble cast for a TV show. In the beginning its all for one ....then someone's role outshines the others and turns into the show's Fonzie... or Chrissie on THREES COMPANY hee haw!

[reese]

I forget which book it was in, I think it was one of Randy's, but apparently there was a small tour planned in Europe in 1966 that they had to cancel because of Flo recently not showing up to the recording session for "He". Mary showed up and Diana was getting snippy about her being the only dependable one and Berry put her in her place saying that Mary showed up too.

In CALL HER MISS ROSS, J. Randy wrote that Flo had been complaining of a "nagging flu." Berry reluctantly canceled a tour of West Germany and Scandinavia upon recommendation of Flo's doctor. Mary mentioned this tour in the diary of her first book, but the info has an asterisk next to it so she probably didn't remember that it was cancelled.

After a week, Berry scheduled the recording session for "HE" but Flo didn't show up. Mary defended Flo but Diana was pissed because wasted studio time came out of their royalties. After waiting an hour, Berry sent Mary home and Diana did the session alone

[midnightman]

oddly enough there are a few pics of rehearsals from this show. one shows the girls in the tux coats and hats but long black skirt! another shows them just in the pants and waistcoats. and a final one shows them in the tuxes but diana is wearing an oversized black coat. M and C seem to be in "normal" coats. it's like they were continuing to rehearse and Diana's coat wasn't done yet but she was cold and needed something to cover up in

That third pic. :[[
If looks could kill, Cindy looks pissed, Mary looks concerned about something, Diana looks sad and depressed. Yikes.

[midnightman]

my guess is this is just a very candid rehearsal shot. this was a complex routine - none of the girls to my knowledge had any tap dancing experience. and while they're certainly not doing a routine as complex as Gene Kelly, this had to be challenging. plus i'm sure they had only a short time to perfect it.

wasn't this the same Sullivan show a Shame and the 2nd Love Child? That puts this as a Jan 5, 1969 performance. later that month they were back off to Vegas for another run at the Frontier. They'd just spent most of Nov touring Europe. Dec was pretty much nonstop recording in the studio doing Shame, young folks, i'm so glad, i'll set you free, composer and others. plus they usually did a run in Miami over christmas.

Yeah they looked like they've all had it. "We didn't have to do this crap when Flo was around," I can imagine Mary and Diana thinking to themselves. And Cindy is like "I left Patti LaBelle for this?"