MSS After M

[sup_fan]

Not sure, although I'm willing to bet that if Pedro wasn't in the picture, Cindy wouldn't have been fired and the MSC lineup would have kept going and going well into the 80s much like the Pointer Sisters and the Three Degrees.

that would have been amazing. especially since in the 80s you had the whole Big Chill thing happening. motown revivals and all. the girls could have easily continued to make records, probably could have arranged things to allow some solo or work outside of the group, tours, be part of motown oldies tours, have guest appearances on sitcoms and talk shows.

[Boogiedown]

Originally Posted by bradsupremes

Not sure, although I'm willing to bet that if Pedro wasn't in the picture, Cindy wouldn't have been fired and the MSC lineup would have kept going and going well into the 80s much like the Pointer Sisters and the Three Degrees.

interesting thoughts but The Three Degrees' peak was very brief and there was a line-up change in '76 and after that they never really did as well ...although how the loss of Fayette, their most original member factors in, is not clear.


Even The Pointers couldn't hold it together ... sisters no less....[at least with The Pointers you could just stick in another sister or kick one out and still be perceived as valid]


And could/would Cindy have lasted ..... she seems to go where the wind takes her ...

[sup_fan]

interesting thoughts but The Three Degrees' peak was very brief and there was a line-up change in '76 and after that they never really did as well ...although how the loss of Fayette, their most original member factors in, is not clear.


Even The Pointers couldn't hold it together ... sisters no less....[at least with The Pointers you could just stick in another sister or kick one out and still be perceived as valid]


And could/would Cindy have lasted ..... she seems to go where the wind takes her ...

i think Cindy was a big more reliable that that. remember she started with the group during an extremely tumultuous period. sort of one a moment's notice for when she might be needed to go on stage and be A SUPREME. we've talked about the pain, stress and all that D, M and F endured during the period of March - July 67 but this was no cakewalk for Cindy either

her decision to leave in 72 was due to having her first child. it's not like she just had an epiphany one morning and decided to go do something else.

when J and L left, i think most sources agree that motown figured the supremes were done. gone. caput. disbanded. mary realized she didn't have really any other professional options and so HAD to get the sups back doing things. mary says she called the "ever reliable" cindy and cindy was happy to come back and help out. but this was clearly a VERY different situation. motown essentially was doing nothing [[even less than they had for the JMC lineup). pedro was involved, no recording going on. Scherrie was new and so i'm guessing deferring to Mary and the established leadership. but Cindy had certainly paid her dues and should have had some degree of a voice in what was going on with the group.

And cindy didn't quit in 76. pedro fired her.

now RTL - yes that was odd that Cindy seemed to totally turn over her participation in the reunion to Mary's negotiating. but we've only ever really heard from D and M regarding RTL. i bet Cindy has a pretty interesting perspective on what happened, why, how and when

[reese]

now RTL - yes that was odd that Cindy seemed to totally turn over her participation in the reunion to Mary's negotiating. but we've only ever really heard from D and M regarding RTL. i bet Cindy has a pretty interesting perspective on what happened, why, how and when

When RTL wasn't doing well, Cindy was quoted in USA TODAY as saying that she had called Diana and told her "we should give the people what they want," but she hadn't heard back as of yet.

Later, Cindy gave an interview to Goldmine or Discoveries, one of those magazines. In it, she expressed regret that she left the RTL negotiating to Mary. Given what we now know about her health, she might not have been in the best space at the time.

[Boogiedown]

don't forget Cindy also flew off on the bluebirds .... and out of the blue for them ....

[marybrewster]

I wonder if Mary ever had issues with her conscience and how what she did with RTL ended up affecting Cindy and with the regrets Cindy expressed over giving Mary ability to speak for her?

Shameful that Cindy wasn't wise enough to negotiate for herself. I've never heard of such a thing, to be honest. Like, when hell froze over and the Eagles reunited, do you think Glenn Frey was in charge of negotiating for Joe Walsh? Ridiculous. Cindy is a fan favorite, but was simply irresponsible to put her fate in ANYONES hands, ESPECIALLY knowing the herstory of Diana and Mary. A lot of people like to pin that on Mary, but sorry, Cindy was a fool.

[marybrewster]

don't forget Cindy also flew off on the bluebirds .... and out of the blue for them ....

Exactly. That's one little tidbit that always seems to be forgotten. Cindy always seems to get a pass for leaving her group, without so much as a telegram or a toodle-loo.

[marybrewster]

i think Cindy was a big more reliable that that. remember she started with the group during an extremely tumultuous period. sort of one a moment's notice for when she might be needed to go on stage and be A SUPREME. we've talked about the pain, stress and all that D, M and F endured during the period of March - July 67 but this was no cakewalk for Cindy either

her decision to leave in 72 was due to having her first child. it's not like she just had an epiphany one morning and decided to go do something else.

when J and L left, i think most sources agree that motown figured the supremes were done. gone. caput. disbanded. mary realized she didn't have really any other professional options and so HAD to get the sups back doing things. mary says she called the "ever reliable" cindy and cindy was happy to come back and help out. but this was clearly a VERY different situation. motown essentially was doing nothing [[even less than they had for the JMC lineup). pedro was involved, no recording going on. Scherrie was new and so i'm guessing deferring to Mary and the established leadership. but Cindy had certainly paid her dues and should have had some degree of a voice in what was going on with the group.

And cindy didn't quit in 76. pedro fired her.

now RTL - yes that was odd that Cindy seemed to totally turn over her participation in the reunion to Mary's negotiating. but we've only ever really heard from D and M regarding RTL. i bet Cindy has a pretty interesting perspective on what happened, why, how and when

Yes, but she started the group.....by up and leaving her own group. I wonder how much of a cakewalk it was for Patti, Sarah, and Nona?

[sup_fan]

very valid point about cindy leaving the Bluebelles. and we've discussed how betrayed Patti and the others felt by her, the hard feelings

i would be though that if Wanda Rodgers had permanently dropped out of the Ms when she was pregnant that Flo might have replaced her permanently and not just on that 1 tour.

once Cindy joined the Supremes, she seems to have been totally loyal to them. while certainly not an "original" member, she definitely put in time and work. She's basically tied with Flo in terms of years served in the group, if we count "Supremes years" and not primette years. mary is longest, then diana, then basically flo and cindy are tied. jean and Scherrie are roughly tied and lynda and susaye are about tied. I'm not going down and counting to the specific day. just in general

[Ollie9]

Shameful that Cindy wasn't wise enough to negotiate for herself. I've never heard of such a thing, to be honest. Like, when hell froze over and the Eagles reunited, do you think Glenn Frey was in charge of negotiating for Joe Walsh? Ridiculous. Cindy is a fan favorite, but was simply irresponsible to put her fate in ANYONES hands, ESPECIALLY knowing the herstory of Diana and Mary. A lot of people like to pin that on Mary, but sorry, Cindy was a fool.

Sadly i agree. Someone with that amount of experience in the music industry as well should really have known better. What on earth was she thinking?.

[Boogiedown]

hee haw I called them the bluebirds


Did Cindy take the time off due to her pregnancy and/or later in order to be a Mom to her youngster?

[bradsupremes]

Did Cindy take the time off due to her pregnancy and/or later in order to be a Mom to her youngster?

In 1972, yes. She left due to her pregnancy.

In 1976, no. She had brought David along with them on tour - being a working mom. Things were different for her around this time and her marriage to Charles Hewitt was ending so she was going through some personal issues, but from what I heard she had no intention of leaving. Pedro wanted Cindy out much earlier and Mary resisted it until she finally caved likely due to his pressure following the fallout of the South Africa tour. Scherrie was totally against Cindy's firing and even considered quitting the group in protest.

Cindy later stated that being a Supreme didn't the same to her anymore and left, but likely she said this as to not bring light to the fact she was fired and all the negativity that surrounded it.

[jobeterob]

My memory is that Cindy may have eventually indicated she would join the RTL tour but by then it was too late - the members were already engaged.

Were Cindy and Jean and Scherrie and Lynda ever ownership partners in the Supremes like Diana Mary and Flo were or were they just employed by Supremes Inc.? If they were just employed, would they get royalties? I know it’s a moot point now because royalties are nothing, but they were something from 1960 to 2000.

As employees, I doubt they got royalties.

[TheMotownManiac]

This is the point that I think a lot of people miss. Mary was in an abusive marriage while trying to raise her children, grieve Florence's death, and keep the group afloat. I personally wouldn't be in the best frame of mind to make serious decisions about my life and career if I were in that situation. In a way, it shows Mary's tenacity that she always kept moving forward.

It's a shame that the final two lineups of The Supremes weren't given the chance to meet their full potential, but I'm so grateful for what they left us.

I think the point is that they might have lived up to their full potential. They were clueless as to how to present themselves to the market they were trying to present themselves to. Their horrible act should explain everything. And their manner on stage interacting with each other.

[TheMotownManiac]

What people don’t seem to realize, or, I think maybe in some cases, want to realize, is that diana ross was in an abusive relationship with Gordie. and everyone knows he was trying to isolate her. Both girls need to be painted with the same brush They both endured the same thing basically >

[TheMotownManiac]

I've always felt Cindy's firing was due to Pedro's jealousy. Aside from Mary, she had been around the longest. Her value carried weight. Plus she had valid input and criticism about the direction of the group and she had influence on Mary.

what Cindy, are you talking about, the only one I can think of is Cindy Birdsong, who never said a word to anybody and wouldn’t say boo a ghost. She had no influence on Mary ever. Mary was all about being all over Cindy from day one. Cindy told me so herself. Cindy always felt like a has ran. She replaced flo And knew that it was not a popular thing to do. She stepped into a hornets nest between Diana and mary, and mary was constantly trying to get Cindy to be on her side of things, even before Cindy knew what those sides were or what the things were..

[rod_rick]

what Cindy, are you talking about, the only one I can think of is Cindy Birdsong, who never said a word to anybody and wouldn’t say boo a ghost. She had no influence on Mary ever. Mary was all about being all over Cindy from day one. Cindy told me so herself. Cindy always felt like a has ran. She replaced flo And knew that it was not a popular thing to do. She stepped into a hornets nest between Diana and mary, and mary was constantly trying to get Cindy to be on her side of things, even before Cindy knew what those sides were or what the things were..

I can see your point regarding Mary & Cindy's dynamic. If you listen to her 1st gig at the Hollywood Bowl Cindy was pretty strong vocally to be a stand in and then poof she was barley audible but Mary's voice came in booming until the Farewell show. Just my observation but I think Cindy just maintained her position in the group and didn't make waves. As dynamic of a vocalist that Susaye is, the Supreme coffin was nailed shut after Cindy's 2nd departure, imo.

[RanRan79]

What people don’t seem to realize, or, I think maybe in some cases, want to realize, is that diana ross was in an abusive relationship with Gordie. and everyone knows he was trying to isolate her. Both girls need to be painted with the same brush They both endured the same thing basically >

Checking in during a break from early morning cooking for the holiday, had no intention of joining in until I saw this.

No. Just no.

They did not endure the same thing. While I think most of us would agree that the dynamic between Diana and Gordy had an abusive element, much of that was born out of his idea that if he pushed her to her limits, she would be big. That meant being critical of her [[which he likely thought was constructive), not allowing her time to rest, and he did indeed alienate her from many of her peers, Florence and Mary in particular. He was harsh, and yes, abusive at times, but there is no doubt that there was no bigger cheerleader for Diana than Berry Gordy. He praised her publicly and privately. Yes, he cheated on her, but apparently, so did she. For all his negatives, Gordy was an overall positive influence in Diana's life. I'm sure she'd be the first to say so. He wanted the best for her, even if he had ridiculous and sometimes antiquated ways of going about it.

That is totally different than the experience Mary Wilson, and countless other women in her position, experienced. Diana was never beaten down verbally to the point that she felt she was worthless [[to the contrary, by all accounts). Diana was never beaten physically by Gordy the way Mary was beaten by Pedro. Diana never had a child tell her that she looked like a monster after having been beaten by his father. Diana never feared death at the hands of Gordy the way Mary feared it at the hands of Pedro.

There is no comparison and your love for Diana Ross should never be such that you would even go there in order to make her look good. If Gordy and Pedro are the same, then you have to say Diana is the same as Pedro, taking into account the verbal abuse she's apparently inflicted upon people over the course of time, including her singing partners, and I have a feeling you wouldn't dare go there, nor should you.

[sup_fan]

Checking in during a break from early morning cooking for the holiday, had no intention of joining in until I saw this.

No. Just no.

They did not endure the same thing. While I think most of us would agree that the dynamic between Diana and Gordy had an abusive element, much of that was born out of his idea that if he pushed her to her limits, she would be big. That meant being critical of her [[which he likely thought was constructive), not allowing her time to rest, and he did indeed alienate her from many of her peers, Florence and Mary in particular. He was harsh, and yes, abusive at times, but there is no doubt that there was no bigger cheerleader for Diana than Berry Gordy. He praised her publicly and privately. Yes, he cheated on her, but apparently, so did she. For all his negatives, Gordy was an overall positive influence in Diana's life. I'm sure she'd be the first to say so. He wanted the best for her, even if he had ridiculous and sometimes antiquated ways of going about it.

That is totally different than the experience Mary Wilson, and countless other women in her position, experienced. Diana was never beaten down verbally to the point that she felt she was worthless [[to the contrary, by all accounts). Diana was never beaten physically by Gordy the way Mary was beaten by Pedro. Diana never had a child tell her that she looked like a monster after having been beaten by his father. Diana never feared death at the hands of Gordy the way Mary feared it at the hands of Pedro.

There is no comparison and your love for Diana Ross should never be such that you would even go there in order to make her look good. If Gordy and Pedro are the same, then you have to say Diana is the same as Pedro, taking into account the verbal abuse she's apparently inflicted upon people over the course of time, including her singing partners, and I have a feeling you wouldn't dare go there, nor should you.

totally agree. Berry was not always necessarily nice, not very delicate in comments. but he never struck her, never abused her just for the thrill of deriding someone. she was as committed to her aspirations of mega stardom as he was. he pushed her to excel and could often be very blunt. he didn't cajole her.

[sup_fan]

I can see your point regarding Mary & Cindy's dynamic. If you listen to her 1st gig at the Hollywood Bowl Cindy was pretty strong vocally to be a stand in and then poof she was barley audible but Mary's voice came in booming until the Farewell show. Just my observation but I think Cindy just maintained her position in the group and didn't make waves. As dynamic of a vocalist that Susaye is, the Supreme coffin was nailed shut after Cindy's 2nd departure, imo.

i think that might be more about specific recordings rather than an effort to minimize her voice. on TOTT, true she is hardly audible but i take that more as an indifference to both M and C. their mic levels are just too low in general. mary makes up for this by singing RIGHT at the mic. like she was swallowing a... lol

listen to the end of Impossible Dream on TCB - hear that high note? that's cindy. or impossible dream on Ed Sullivan. or look at their comedy lines in You're Nobody on Sullivan. again Mary is RIGHT at her mic, cindy delivers hers a little back from the mic.

But of course these are only a tiny % of all their performances as DRATS, so who knows how the rest sounded.

IMO Mary was actively pushing back against the idea of their mics being so low. this was her rebelling a little.

[sup_fan]

what Cindy, are you talking about, the only one I can think of is Cindy Birdsong, who never said a word to anybody and wouldn’t say boo a ghost. She had no influence on Mary ever. Mary was all about being all over Cindy from day one. Cindy told me so herself. Cindy always felt like a has ran. She replaced flo And knew that it was not a popular thing to do. She stepped into a hornets nest between Diana and mary, and mary was constantly trying to get Cindy to be on her side of things, even before Cindy knew what those sides were or what the things were..

yes and no. yes i've also heard that mary pushed cindy around a lot. that cindy had to be the moderator of sorts between M and J. heck mary even mentions this in Sup Faith. Mary should have frankly involved Cindy more in the strategic management of the group. the two of them should have been like Otis and Melvin of the Temps. partners.

i think what Brad might be referring to is Cindy's impact and importance from a public perspective. and motown's too. cindy was very much identified as a Supreme. that fact that she had some resemblance to Flo helped in the transition so that an average person probably didn't even really realize. she was a constant presence that the public recognized. and provided some stability to the group's image and all.

[Ollie9]

What people don’t seem to realize, or, I think maybe in some cases, want to realize, is that diana ross was in an abusive relationship with Gordie. and everyone knows he was trying to isolate her. Both girls need to be painted with the same brush They both endured the same thing basically >

That’s quite a shocking and disgusting statement to make, being as Ran points out an insult to the many women who are physically and mentally abused on a daily basis.
Diana was made to work hard, but has always had nothing but praise for Gordy, being why they maintain a close and loving relationship which lasts till this day.
Mary on the other hand was made to feel worthless as a person while being beaten to the point of having a glass thrown at her face, nearly severing an ear.
I would hardly call that “sharing the same thing basically”.
Still anything to make Diana star shine a bit brighter huh. My goodness.

[marybrewster]

What people don’t seem to realize, or, I think maybe in some cases, want to realize, is that diana ross was in an abusive relationship with Gordie. and everyone knows he was trying to isolate her. Both girls need to be painted with the same brush They both endured the same thing basically >

This is a joke, right? Getting smacked across the head while your ear bleeds is the same brush stoke as being forced to sing a showtune? GTFO.

[marybrewster]

what Cindy, are you talking about, the only one I can think of is Cindy Birdsong, who never said a word to anybody and wouldn’t say boo a ghost. She had no influence on Mary ever. Mary was all about being all over Cindy from day one. Cindy told me so herself. Cindy always felt like a has ran. She replaced flo And knew that it was not a popular thing to do. She stepped into a hornets nest between Diana and mary, and mary was constantly trying to get Cindy to be on her side of things, even before Cindy knew what those sides were or what the things were..

To quote [[supposedly) Flo Ballard:

"What kind of woman wears another woman's shoes"? Cindy Birdsong knew EXACTLY what she was stepping in to.

[jobeterob]

My memory is that Cindy may have eventually indicated she would join the RTL tour but by then it was too late - the members were already engaged.

Were Cindy and Jean and Scherrie and Lynda ever ownership partners in the Supremes like Diana Mary and Flo were or were they just employed by Supremes Inc.? If they were just employed, would they get royalties? I know it’s a moot point now because royalties are nothing, but they were something from 1960 to 2000.

As employees, I doubt they got royalties.

Can anyone provide an answer to any of this?

[reese]

Can anyone provide an answer to any of this?

I have no idea of the $ details when it came to the Supremes. But J. Randy reported that Cindy signed away her royalties when she left in 1972. In a tabloid article, Cindy says the same but places it at a later date.

I'm not sure what happened with Jean. I would assume that whatever royalties Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye receive are probably small since they didn't sing on any huge sellers.

[sup_fan]

I have no idea of the $ details when it came to the Supremes. But J. Randy reported that Cindy signed away her royalties when she left in 1972. In a tabloid article, Cindy says the same but places it at a later date.

I'm not sure what happened with Jean. I would assume that whatever royalties Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye receive are probably small since they didn't sing on any huge sellers.

supposedly Jean was salaried but i'm not sure if that was for just a probationary period or for the duration of her contract. so my questions beyond that would be 1) how long was the probationary period and 2) once she was receiving royalties was it on all of the songs she recorded or just the song post probationary period?

i thought i'd heard something about the girls have an 18 month probationary period and so if that's the case, depending on the start date, it would mean that many of the biggest hits she sang on occurred during that period. so did she actually earn royalties on Ladder and Stoned Love?

[bradsupremes]

Can anyone provide an answer to any of this?

I don't believe Supremes, Inc. was formed until after Jean and Lynda. I could be wrong - I'd have to check. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think any of them had ownership in Supremes, Inc. though. I think that was Mary's company. But all the ladies had recording contracts with Motown so they would get royalties from those eventual sales. They were salaried at first when they joined and on a probationary period, but would eventually receive royalties. Cindy signed away her royalties sometime in the late 70s/early 80s when she was in financial distress. I haven't heard anything about the other ladies signing away their royalties.

[marybrewster]

I don't believe Supremes, Inc. was formed until after Jean and Lynda. I could be wrong - I'd have to check. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think any of them had ownership in Supremes, Inc. though. I think that was Mary's company. But all the ladies had recording contracts with Motown so they would get royalties from those eventual sales. They were salaried at first when they joined and on a probationary period, but would eventually receive royalties. Cindy signed away her royalties sometime in the late 70s/early 80s when she was in financial distress. I haven't heard anything about the other ladies signing away their royalties.

I believe Supremes Inc was created when Pedro came into the picture. I would assume that was the MSC era that excludes Jean and Lynda. I don't believe Jean or Lynda, quite honestly, would have agreed or signed any percentage to corporation outside of Motown.

Which begs the question:

What did Supremes Inc actually do? Sherrie and later Susaye were contracted under Motown, correct? So I assume they were paid by Motown. Did each member contribute to a "general fund", and that's where Supremes Inc comes in?

[sup_fan]

I believe Supremes Inc was created when Pedro came into the picture. I would assume that was the MSC era that excludes Jean and Lynda. I don't believe Jean or Lynda, quite honestly, would have agreed or signed any percentage to corporation outside of Motown.

Which begs the question:

What did Supremes Inc actually do? Sherrie and later Susaye were contracted under Motown, correct? So I assume they were paid by Motown. Did each member contribute to a "general fund", and that's where Supremes Inc comes in?

i think actually Sups Inc was set up when Motown was pretty much ready for the group to disband in 73 when J and L left. Mary initially hired Scherrie and i think Cindy was still under contract with motown, even though she hadn't been in the group for over a year. Eventually though Scherrie was officially signed to Motown and M and C would have probably renewed their contracts with the label.

my understanding of Sups inc is that it was the management team for the group. booking tours, coordinating with designers on costumes design, repair, cleaning, etc. Hiring of choreographers and the band that toured with them. in Sup Faith, mary says that the 3 women would be paid a % after all costs and i am assuming that's from their appearance fees. so if they were booked on a tv show, had a concert, etc, the contract for that appearance would have been through Sup Inc and the promoter or show or whomever would pay Sups Inc. Sup Inc would pay whatever % was owed to Motown, to the band, etc, recoup whatever travel costs, etc. and then MSC and later S would get their amounts.

but for the sales of records, that would have gone through motown

or at least this is how i understand it

[marybrewster]

i think actually Sups Inc was set up when Motown was pretty much ready for the group to disband in 73 when J and L left. Mary initially hired Scherrie and i think Cindy was still under contract with motown, even though she hadn't been in the group for over a year. Eventually though Scherrie was officially signed to Motown and M and C would have probably renewed their contracts with the label.

my understanding of Sups inc is that it was the management team for the group. booking tours, coordinating with designers on costumes design, repair, cleaning, etc. Hiring of choreographers and the band that toured with them. in Sup Faith, mary says that the 3 women would be paid a % after all costs and i am assuming that's from their appearance fees. so if they were booked on a tv show, had a concert, etc, the contract for that appearance would have been through Sup Inc and the promoter or show or whomever would pay Sups Inc. Sup Inc would pay whatever % was owed to Motown, to the band, etc, recoup whatever travel costs, etc. and then MSC and later S would get their amounts.

but for the sales of records, that would have gone through motown

or at least this is how i understand it

I wonder then how they were paid. Bi-weekly, like a "regular" job? Or on a gig-by-gig basis? And what was the cut? Did Mary take in more being an original? Did Cindy make more than Scherrie, and Scherrie more than Susaye, based on tenure?

I'd guess if there was a performance at Bachelors [[or wherever) the fee would credit to the Inc. account, then everyone would be paid accordingly?

So let's say the make $5,000.00. The band is paid $1000.00, which leaves $4000.00. Motown is paid $1000.00 for a recording session, which leaves $3000.00. Mary gets $1000.00, Cindy gets $800, and Scherrie gets $750.00 which leaves $1450.00 "in the kitty" for new gowns. But then if gowns are bought and Cindy gets fired, is she paid out for those?

It's fascinating.

[jobeterob]

This is starting to make sense.

So they were contracted as Supremes to Motown and would have got some royalties which are now next to nothing and Cindy signed hers away.

Supremes Inc. managed their appearances and it would have been used to do all that work and get paid for it - basically hiving off money like Motown did.

I appreciate your posts Brad and Mary - they kind of help me understand some of the legalities. Occasionally things are said that make no sense - even things from Randy.

[marybrewster]

This is starting to make sense.

So they were contracted as Supremes to Motown and would have got some royalties which are now next to nothing and Cindy signed hers away.

Supremes Inc. managed their appearances and it would have been used to do all that work and get paid for it - basically hiving off money like Motown did.

I appreciate your posts Brad and Mary - they kind of help me understand some of the legalities. Occasionally things are said that make no sense - even things from Randy.

I'm a nerd that loves numbers and the guts of an operation. This is the side of the Supremes that's always been exciting to me; how things REALLY ticked. I'm still really curious to know how the members were actually paid. Was it a three way split? Did Mary get a bigger piece of the pie? What was Pedro's cut? I know Susaye has gone on record saying that she's never liked talking about the dollars, but I think so much can be learned about the business by the day to day operations.

What's curious to me too is; when getting paid out for FLOY JOY and HIGH ENERGY, did Cindy get a cut? Or was it forfeited to Lynda and Susaye? It's her vocals, but their image.

[bradsupremes]

This is starting to make sense.

So they were contracted as Supremes to Motown and would have got some royalties which are now next to nothing and Cindy signed hers away.

Supremes Inc. managed their appearances and it would have been used to do all that work and get paid for it - basically hiving off money like Motown did.

I appreciate your posts Brad and Mary - they kind of help me understand some of the legalities. Occasionally things are said that make no sense - even things from Randy.

In essence, yes. Motown handled the recording end while Supremes, Inc. oversaw the bookings, gowns, etc. I believe the ladies were paid by Supremes, Inc. when it came to gigs and appearances, but the royalties earned from sales were handled by Motown.

I remember going through some of the paperwork Mary kept from those days and she had the Supremes, Inc. invoices for paying out Pat Campano for gown amendments, alterations, etc. and the contracts with Geoffrey Holder in creating their live show in 1975.

[marybrewster]

I have no idea of the $ details when it came to the Supremes. But J. Randy reported that Cindy signed away her royalties when she left in 1972. In a tabloid article, Cindy says the same but places it at a later date.

I'm not sure what happened with Jean. I would assume that whatever royalties Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye receive are probably small since they didn't sing on any huge sellers.

So if she signed them away in '72, what happened when she resigned in '74? Everything prior to '72 was Motown's, and everything after was hers?

What's also interesting is, does signing royalties away mean FOREVER? When I think about the 70's boxed sets, especially the TITS and FINAL YEARS sets, was Mary the only one getting paid? Does Jean still get royalties? Lynda? S or S?

[bradsupremes]

So if she signed them away in '72, what happened when she resigned in '74? Everything prior to '72 was Motown's, and everything after was hers?

What's also interesting is, does signing royalties away mean FOREVER? When I think about the 70's boxed sets, especially the TITS and FINAL YEARS sets, was Mary the only one getting paid? Does Jean still get royalties? Lynda? S or S?

Cindy didn't sign away her royalties in 1972 - it wasn't until later. I can't recall when but sometime between 1978-1981 timeframe after her divorce.

[Spreadinglove21]

This obsession or fixation amongst some of you with who's getting royalties and how much income they made/make is intrusively tacky, unseemly and really none of your business.

[jobeterob]

So if she signed them away in '72, what happened when she resigned in '74? Everything prior to '72 was Motown's, and everything after was hers?

What's also interesting is, does signing royalties away mean FOREVER? When I think about the 70's boxed sets, especially the TITS and FINAL YEARS sets, was Mary the only one getting paid? Does Jean still get royalties? Lynda? S or S?

If you sign them away, it’s forever

But you could try and ask to have them reinstated if you re-signed; but Motown and Universal would never agree to re-institute them; I doubt they would even now when royalties are nothing - just in case

For Florence and Cindy to sign them away was absolutely totally stupid - it is unbelievable that would happen. That only happens when a naive uninformed person gets offered some lump sum and they are desperate for money. Cindy and Flo doomed themselves by signing them away.

[marybrewster]

This obsession or fixation amongst some of you with who's getting royalties and how much income they made/make is intrusively tacky, unseemly and really none of your business.

Would you rather talk about how well RTL went? Cause we've dogged that one to death. Or how about when Diana toots it's a gold record. 90% of what's in these threads is tacky; that's why Ralph gave us our own sub-forum with little moderation.

There's a valuable lesson in business to be learned about signing away royalties, letting your husband manage your career, and percentages and I am here for it.

[bradsupremes]

This obsession or fixation amongst some of you with who's getting royalties and how much income they made/make is intrusively tacky, unseemly and really none of your business.

It's called the music business after all, isn't it? There's nothing intrusive, unseemly or tacky about this conversation regarding royalties. Some people are interested in charts, the recording aspect, the gowns, backstage drama, etc. For some, there is the business side that's of interest. Mary along with many other Motown artists have publicly talked about royalties and their contracts. If they were willing to publicly discuss it, why can't we? We're not disclosing their bank accounts, passwords, and Social Security numbers, etc. Like MaryBrewster said, there's valuable lessons in this. Learn from mistakes or you're doomed to repeat them.

[Spreadinglove21]

Based on the defensive replies so far to my post, sounds like I struck a nerve amongst those who are more comfortable dwelling in the shallow and materialistic realms of life such as other people's income. Anyway go ahead and focus on that if that is what you're most comfortable with. You're just as judgemental as I am.

[jobeterob]

Brad these are excellent posts about the business side of the music industry and they are very logical - they make perfect legal sense.

Also Mary’s explanations about why this matters.

I totally agree that there is nothing at all wrong with this discussion. Most Motown artists were left with next to nothing from their careers. About 6 of made incredible fortunes. There are lessons in that for all of us. In my law practice, I saw it regularly - totally uncalled for, poor decisions that cost people their livelihoods and their retirement incomes and their family relationships.

It is the same when you sign away royalties, hire unscrupulous managers and pass up opportunities to make a fortune on a tour because you and your colleagues don’t get along. The smart guys in this are the Jaggers and the Richards who don’t like each other but are in bed with each other with $500 million dollars in their back pockets.

Do you know that the average NHL career is 4 years long and most of the guys don’t have any financial security at the end of it. But there are 10 of them who have $100 million dollars each.

The story is exactly the same as what happened at Motown and what happens to car dealers and fund managers and lawyers etc etc

It’s life

[RanRan79]

the two of them should have been like Otis and Melvin of the Temps. partners.

They aren't comparable though. Otis and Melvin would be more like Mary and Florence. Mary and Cindy is comparable to Otis and Dennis, and I don't think anyone would have expected Dennis to be a partner to Otis, and they were singing partners many more years than Mary and Cindy at any time.

As much as we all love Cindy and respect her position, she was not an original member. Once Diana was gone, the Supremes officially became Mary's group. No one woman would ever be on her level, nor should she have been. Mary was the last one standing who went on a serious grind to make the Supremes a household name, along with Flo and Diana. Cindy came in when the "grunt" work was done. She would never do enough as a Supreme to earn a "partner" title with Mary. Mary's partners were Diana and Florence, until they both moved on.

I do believe that there was not another Supreme that Mary could count on as much as she would be able to with Cindy, thus making Cindy a very important component to Mary "running" the group. I also believe that Cindy leaving the first time- as understandable as it was- caused Mary to really stare down the fact that when it came to the Supremes, nobody was going to be as invested as she, which meant no room for bringing on partners.

I do agree that Mary should have been more fair with all the ladies in making sure any ideas they had about progressing the group would be on the table and up for discussion. After all, Mary may have been Queen Supreme, but all of them had some investment in the group succeeding while they were members and so it could have only been a positive to sometimes move in the suggested directions Cindy, Jean, Lynda, Scherrie and Susaye brought to the table.

[RanRan79]

totally agree. Berry was not always necessarily nice, not very delicate in comments. but he never struck her, never abused her just for the thrill of deriding someone. she was as committed to her aspirations of mega stardom as he was. he pushed her to excel and could often be very blunt. he didn't cajole her.

Thinking on it, I may have at times also described the relationship as abusive, but never in a million years would I have made those two situations comparable. Honestly, Berry and Diana's relationship was more dysfunctional than abusive.

[bradsupremes]

Based on the defensive replies so far to my post, sounds like I struck a nerve amongst those who are more comfortable dwelling in the shallow and materialistic realms of life such as other people's income. Anyway go ahead and focus on that if that is what you're most comfortable with. You're just as judgemental as I am.

Didn't you comment in another thread about the lawsuit between Mary and FLOS regarding CD sales and royalties? I mean, come on now.

If you don't like what we're discussing then ignore the thread. Folks like Jobeterob, MaryBrewster, Sup_fan, and others are having a legitimate conversation about the business end of the later days of the group. So much of this is already in the public sphere either written or discussed by Mary, Diana, Otis, Randy, Martha, Flo, Peter Benjamin, etc.

[RanRan79]

I have no idea of the $ details when it came to the Supremes. But J. Randy reported that Cindy signed away her royalties when she left in 1972. In a tabloid article, Cindy says the same but places it at a later date.

I'm not sure what happened with Jean. I would assume that whatever royalties Lynda, Scherrie, and Susaye receive are probably small since they didn't sing on any huge sellers.

Didn't Jean sue and win royalties from Motown at some point?

[RanRan79]

supposedly Jean was salaried but i'm not sure if that was for just a probationary period or for the duration of her contract. so my questions beyond that would be 1) how long was the probationary period and 2) once she was receiving royalties was it on all of the songs she recorded or just the song post probationary period?

i thought i'd heard something about the girls have an 18 month probationary period and so if that's the case, depending on the start date, it would mean that many of the biggest hits she sang on occurred during that period. so did she actually earn royalties on Ladder and Stoned Love?

I find it hard to believe that royalties would be withheld for any reason other than theft or forfeiting the right. How would Motown justify Jean singing lead on "Ladder" or "Stoned" and not getting paid for the sales of said songs?

[bradsupremes]

Brad these are excellent posts about the business side of the music industry and they are very logical - they make perfect legal sense.

Also Mary’s explanations about why this matters.

I totally agree that there is nothing at all wrong with this discussion. Most Motown artists were left with next to nothing from their careers. About 6 of made incredible fortunes. There are lessons in that for all of us. In my law practice, I saw it regularly - totally uncalled for, poor decisions that cost people their livelihoods and their retirement incomes and their family relationships.

It is the same when you sign away royalties, hire unscrupulous managers and pass up opportunities to make a fortune on a tour because you and your colleagues don’t get along. The smart guys in this are the Jaggers and the Richards who don’t like each other but are in bed with each other with $500 million dollars in their back pockets.

Do you know that the average NHL career is 4 years long and most of the guys don’t have any financial security at the end of it. But there are 10 of them who have $100 million dollars each.

The story is exactly the same as what happened at Motown and what happens to car dealers and fund managers and lawyers etc etc

It’s life

Exactly. Bingo!

I was having a conversation with a coworker about the Rolling Stones as they just announced another summer tour and are coming to town. We talked about bands like the Stones figured out to be successful as a unit than strike out on their own like the Beatles - there was more money to be made together than separate. Like you said, some of these folks don't even like each other but they are willing to side step it if the price is right. If a good business decision makes sense, act on it.

[RanRan79]

I don't believe Supremes, Inc. was formed until after Jean and Lynda. I could be wrong - I'd have to check. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think any of them had ownership in Supremes, Inc. though. I think that was Mary's company. But all the ladies had recording contracts with Motown so they would get royalties from those eventual sales. They were salaried at first when they joined and on a probationary period, but would eventually receive royalties. Cindy signed away her royalties sometime in the late 70s/early 80s when she was in financial distress. I haven't heard anything about the other ladies signing away their royalties.

Salaried...That makes sense regarding probation, that maybe the new girls were only paid so much from shows, appearances, etc, until the probation period was over, at which point they probably received the same amount of pay that Mary did. My guess would be the salary and probation would not have affected royalties for songs and albums recorded and released during their tenure, no matter the length.

[RanRan79]

What's curious to me too is; when getting paid out for FLOY JOY and HIGH ENERGY, did Cindy get a cut? Or was it forfeited to Lynda and Susaye? It's her vocals, but their image.

Great question!