MSS After M

[marybrewster]

It's always been assumed that if Scherrie and Susaye would have continued the Supremes after Mary's departure that Joyce Vincent would have rounded out the trio.

I've always heard rumblings that Alton McClain was a possible "replacement"; that said, if she had joined the Supremes, do you think that the group would gone in the direction that Destiny would later in 1978/1979?

Here's their hit "It Must Be Love", produced by Frank Wilson.

https://youtu.be/kf_QuBTc5u8?si=mwzGLOF9XW995iVb

Alton seemed geared for solo career, as evidenced by the "Alton McClain and Destiny" name. Would Alton McClain and the Supremes have made sense? Would Scherrie and Susaye have gone for it? Would Mary have "allowed" it?

Interesting, Alton definitely has a"Supreme" vibe and really favors Mary in the looks department.

[sup_fan]

based on what S and S have said, the third member was going to be Joyce. maybe alton was briefly considered but seems like everyone was lining up with Joyce.

of course motown was more than done with the group by this point in time. while motown had no interest in mary in or out of the group, they had 0 interest in the sups without any original members. I think motown was savvy enough to realize that the group was done and needed to be retired. even without Diana's urging.

[Thornton]

It's an interesting idea, but I can't imagine Scherrie and Susaye moving into the background, especially since their roles in the group only grew as time went on. I wish they had continued with Joyce Vincent, and I'm grateful that the three of them have been forming together for the past six years.

[BayouMotownMan]

The only other name I heard thrown around after Mary left other than Joyce was Syreeta. And she herself nipped that in the bud fairly quickly.

As far as a sound, no I don't think they would have gone with an Alton McClain sound. The whole purpose of getting away from Mary and Pedro was so Scherrie and Susaye could write their own music. So, likely, the material on the Partners lp could have morped into Supremes music.

[sup_fan]

ignoring the hodgepodge aspect of the Partners lp, i don't know if any individual track on there is really all that magical or exciting. nothing jumps out at me. Luvbug is interesting and fun that she's singing with Ray. but that's just a 1-off. it's not something you could anchor an album or sound around. Storybook Romance is pretty generic disco. and after the powerful dance tunes of Walking, Let Yourself Go, Don't Want To Be Tied Down, Storybook is pretty blah.

none of these tunes grab you like Free did for Denise Williams and was written by Susaye.

so if they were going to do a "supremes producing supremes" idea, they needed stronger content

[marybrewster]

The only other name I heard thrown around after Mary left other than Joyce was Syreeta. And she herself nipped that in the bud fairly quickly.

As far as a sound, no I don't think they would have gone with an Alton McClain sound. The whole purpose of getting away from Mary and Pedro was so Scherrie and Susaye could write their own music. So, likely, the material on the Partners lp could have morped into Supremes music.

I have articles that elude to a Gail Bullock and a Karen Knox also having auditioned for the 3rd spot.

[thanxal]

So let me dive into @RanRan79 territory here and do a big ole what if....

What if they did something still unusual in the 1970s and added a male singer?

[marybrewster]

based on what S and S have said, the third member was going to be Joyce. maybe alton was briefly considered but seems like everyone was lining up with Joyce.

That's unfortunately just not true. I'm not sure what Scherrie has said, but Joyce was not their first choice. This has been confirmed with Susaye.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I honestly don't think that Partners had a sound that would have said Supremes to the public except maybe for Leaving Me Was The Best Thing. Granted, Susaye co-wrote Free and I Can't Help It and Scherrie wrote Crumbs Off The Table but there wasn't a huge standout on this LP and certainly nothing that would have been for the new Supremes of Scherrie, Susaye and Joyce.
Granted, Luvbug was a decent novelty tune with Ray Charles and Scherrie did pen some nice tunes with Storybook Romance, When I Looked at Your Face and especially Another Life From Now.
In fact, even though Mary Wilson didn't have a standout in her debut it was more filled with catchy tunes like Midnight Dancer and her ballads I Love A Warm Summer Night and Pick Up The Pieces.
Shame because in the studio there was real magic with MSS. But they disbanded in 1977 and it took until 1979-1980 for their releases.

[jobeterob]

I thought it was Mary who went to Diana and asked her to intervene with Berry and end the Supremes if there wasn’t going to be an original member left???

[carlo]

Here's their hit "It Must Be Love", produced by Frank Wilson.

I had no idea that Frank Wilson produced It Must Be Love! Thanks Mary Brewster. That would help to explain why I love that track!

[gman]

Partners is a very listenable LP...I am not a huge Susaye fan....I just don't want a real lot of that high register voice on a LP...but some stuff she does I love...her 2 solos on the last 2 Supremes LPs...and IN THE NIGHT from Partners I think are great.....both girls were talented writers...I am glad the group was retired when Mary left....

I lost all interest in the FLO's [[despite loving Scherrie) once Jean left...I think the FLO'S performance at the Dominion is better than any live show or performance of anything labeled "Supremes" I have seen...thank God the show tunes and the brass are gone...and the tempos were kept to a more true to the record pace.

[sup_fan]

I thought it was Mary who went to Diana and asked her to intervene with Berry and end the Supremes if there wasn’t going to be an original member left???

that's what i've heard too. there are some alt theories/fan statements about the South American tour in 77. that whole tour was just a clusterfuck. In Sup Faith, Mary sort of makes it sound like this was sort of a one-off thing. that they would do this tour because it was a remnant of what had been set up for the Sups. but there are so many questionable things around that. if it had been planned, those dates would have been well known prior to the June farewell in London. this appears to be more of a last minute booking, just to make some fast money.

at the same time, after the London farewell, it was pretty clear to Mary that motown was not going to be doing anything with her. there were no plans for Marvin to produce her [[even though she had been saying that again and again to the public). she would have realized that no solo career means no money. all she'd have were her regular royalty checks from her old Sup songs.

So she tried to come back to The Supremes. to rejoin S and S. apparently they were open to the idea but were 100% adamant that Pedro have NOTHING to do with anything. all management from motown, all 3 women with an equal say. Mary wouldn't agree to that so the rejoining died.

and then she went to Diana saying "the group needs to be officially disbanded" and Diana helped pull the strings.

[Ollie9]

that's what i've heard too. there are some alt theories/fan statements about the South American tour in 77. that whole tour was just a clusterfuck. In Sup Faith, Mary sort of makes it sound like this was sort of a one-off thing. that they would do this tour because it was a remnant of what had been set up for the Sups. but there are so many questionable things around that. if it had been planned, those dates would have been well known prior to the June farewell in London. this appears to be more of a last minute booking, just to make some fast money.

at the same time, after the London farewell, it was pretty clear to Mary that motown was not going to be doing anything with her. there were no plans for Marvin to produce her [[even though she had been saying that again and again to the public). she would have realized that no solo career means no money. all she'd have were her regular royalty checks from her old Sup songs.

So she tried to come back to The Supremes. to rejoin S and S. apparently they were open to the idea but were 100% adamant that Pedro have NOTHING to do with anything. all management from motown, all 3 women with an equal say. Mary wouldn't agree to that so the rejoining died.

and then she went to Diana saying "the group needs to be officially disbanded" and Diana helped pull the strings.

Is her wanting to rejoin the Supremes a definite sup. It certainly would have made her look rather foolish in the eyes of the world, particularly after all the publicity surrounding her departure.
The three women had something special in the recording studio that for me remains unmatched even today.
Had she returned, i wonder if Motown would have ever gone with Mary Wilson & the Supremes had she wanted a name change?.

[blackguy69]

The only person ever to say that was susaye. So I take that story with a grain of salt.

Is her wanting to rejoin the Supremes a definite sup. It certainly would have made her look rather foolish in the eyes of the world, particularly after all the publicity surrounding her departure.
The three women had something special in the recording studio that for me remains unmatched even today.
Had she returned, i wonder if Motown would have ever gone with Mary Wilson & the Supremes had she wanted a name change?.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I personally do not remember anything about Mary wanting to rejoin the Supremes or if she did changing the name to Mary Wilson & The Supremes. Yes, Mary definitely held onto the legacy even when starting a solo career but I don't think Motown would have been behind her returning. Motown really quit caring about the group in 1972/73.

MSS really did something special in the recording studio. The mass public never realized what they were missing on. Still, I am sure neither Scherrie or Susaye wanted Pedro anywhere near their career again. Mary was still married to him, so she was between a rock and a hard place once she finally did sign with Motown. Pedro was so controlling and Motown signed her so she would drop her lawsuit. Not the best way to start a solo career. But you have to give Mary so much credit for leaving Pedro and for starting a solo career even if it was steeped in Supremes history. Many artists may have not been able to forge ahead like she did. And she did it against a lot of odds.

[sup_fan]

Is her wanting to rejoin the Supremes a definite sup. It certainly would have made her look rather foolish in the eyes of the world, particularly after all the publicity surrounding her departure.
The three women had something special in the recording studio that for me remains unmatched even today.
Had she returned, i wonder if Motown would have ever gone with Mary Wilson & the Supremes had she wanted a name change?.

what i typed is simply my aggregation of what other fans have shared over the years. so no, i do not have any definitive proof that mary circled back to S and S asking to rejoin.

would it have looked foolish - yes. is it inconceivable - no. mary was being directed by pedro and so foolish decisions were bought to happen. I don't know if the "rejoining" was to be temporary, or what.

the whole S American tour was foolish. my thought is Mary and/or Sups Inc were pretty much flat broke and yet they had serious bills to pay. her mansion, the staff, etc. how and why this tour was booked, i don't know.

as for MW&TS, never. motown would never have gone for that in a million years. there was 0 way in 1970 Berry would EVER have allowed Mary to be the lead singer of the group. no way, no how. for one reason, i believe he just felt her voice wasn't strong enough or dynamic enough to lead a major pop group like the Sups. but another reason appears to be motown just never wanted to do ANYTHING with mary. and i don't know why. so there was no way in 1970, no way in 73 when J and L left, no way in 77 to make it MW&TS and no way in 79 for a solo career.

[sup_fan]

The only person ever to say that was susaye. So I take that story with a grain of salt.

given that Susaye was actually there and one of the 3 people actively involved in this situation, she would be a far more reliable source than fans. and given the tall tales and things mary included in her book, i wouldn't expect any larger grain of salt to accompany any of Susaye's comments versus Mary's

[blackguy69]

I do know she was there but outside of her no one else has reported it. I didn’t say she was lying but she could also be mistaken. Now if Scherrie also mentioned it, then I would say that statement has some legs to stand on.

given that Susaye was actually there and one of the 3 people actively involved in this situation, she would be a far more reliable source than fans. and given the tall tales and things mary included in her book, i wouldn't expect any larger grain of salt to accompany any of Susaye's comments versus Mary's

[daviddh]

i vaguely remember ,at some point , Marys album flopped .not sure if the deal with Marvin was it but he stated there was no agreement for him to produce Mary.
there was also a tour that was not cancelled and a pending lawsuit. i think thats when Mary reunited with Cindy and brought on Debbie Sharpe.
there were talks to bring Mary back into the group but she had already given her blessing for the ladies to continue the group ,and as i recall, Joyce Vincent was chosen to join.
tony orlando and dawn had ended dramatically and waitied for TO to get his act together. when he did , they were no longer part of it.
Mary ended the Supremes ,i think June 77 , while TO ended Dawn july 77. but the final word came a few months later after his rehab stint. i think around november 77.
Joyce V and Telma H continue to do session work , then Telma got her sitcom Bossum Buddies and Joyce accepted to join the Supremes when BG ,dropped the ball ,no more Supremes.
when Scherrie and Susaye turned down the deal to work with Pedro. Mary shot back it was a package deal. the declined, the Supremes ended shortly thereafter.
at least this is how i remember it

[marybrewster]

given that Susaye was actually there and one of the 3 people actively involved in this situation, she would be a far more reliable source than fans. and given the tall tales and things mary included in her book, i wouldn't expect any larger grain of salt to accompany any of Susaye's comments versus Mary's

And the consensus is that Joyce was ALWAYS the 1st pick to "replace" Mary in the Supremes in 1977, yet I've confirmed that's not true. So while I agree that Susaye is reliable, I do believe there are LOTS of tall tales surrounding the Supremes.

[marybrewster]

i vaguely remember ,at some point , Marys album flopped .not sure if the deal with Marvin was it but he stated there was no agreement for him to produce Mary.
there was also a tour that was not cancelled and a pending lawsuit. i think thats when Mary reunited with Cindy and brought on Debbie Sharpe.
there were talks to bring Mary back into the group but she had already given her blessing for the ladies to continue the group ,and as i recall, Joyce Vincent was chosen to join.
tony orlando and dawn had ended dramatically and waitied for TO to get his act together. when he did , they were no longer part of it.
Mary ended the Supremes ,i think June 77 , while TO ended Dawn july 77. but the final word came a few months later after his rehab stint. i think around november 77.
Joyce V and Telma H continue to do session work , then Telma got her sitcom Bossum Buddies and Joyce accepted to join the Supremes when BG ,dropped the ball ,no more Supremes.
when Scherrie and Susaye turned down the deal to work with Pedro. Mary shot back it was a package deal. the declined, the Supremes ended shortly thereafter.
at least this is how i remember it

Bosom Buddies didn't air until 1980.

[jobeterob]

So are you all suggesting that after Mary enlisted Diana to convince Berry to end the Supremes, she may have had a rethink because things weren’t going so well and may have had discussions about resurrecting them with Scherrie and Susaye and Pedro? And Joyce or no Joyce?

[TheMotownManiac]

I personally do not remember anything about Mary wanting to rejoin the Supremes or if she did changing the name to Mary Wilson & The Supremes. Yes, Mary definitely held onto the legacy even when starting a solo career but I don't think Motown would have been behind her returning. Motown really quit caring about the group in 1972/73.

MSS really did something special in the recording studio. The mass public never realized what they were missing on. Still, I am sure neither Scherrie or Susaye wanted Pedro anywhere near their career again. Mary was still married to him, so she was between a rock and a hard place once she finally did sign with Motown. Pedro was so controlling and Motown signed her so she would drop her lawsuit. Not the best way to start a solo career. But you have to give Mary so much credit for leaving Pedro and for starting a solo career even if it was steeped in Supremes history. Many artists may have not been able to forge ahead like she did. And she did it against a lot of odds.

Mary told me that she wanted to go back to the group, perhaps not permanently, but Pedro would be managing again, and the girls said no. And Pedro was calling the shots, so Mary did not go back. His ego was bigger than their need for money.

Motown didn’t lose interest in The Supremes, the public did. Let’s face it, if your first album is successful with 1 single that’s in the top 10 for one week, and the follow up album is not successful and the single goes number one RMV as in the top 10 for six weeks, that’s not a sign of promotion or album cover, that is an indication the public is it not into the group. When they buy the singles and not the album, you need to face up to the fact that the act needs work. Barry didn’t want to work with Jean, mary didn’t want to work without Jean, that was her call. If Motown lost interest in the Supremes, they wouldn’t have asked Smoky and Jimmy Webb to do albums with them. They were looking for signs of life. I do believe that Motown stopped thinking of the Supremes, as an A act, because they really weren’t anymore. For whatever reason they weren’t anymore. Once Jean left, Berry offered to work with the group again, that’s not lack of interest. Motown couldn’t get records on diana ross, the Jackson 5 were slipping and both of those acts or more of a priority because they generated more income.

[sup_fan]

Mary told me that she wanted to go back to the groove, perhaps not permanently, but Pedro would be managing again, and the girls said no. And Pedro was calling the shots, so Mary did not go back. His ego was bigger than their need for money.

Motown didn’t lose interest in The Supremes, the public did. Let’s face it, if your first album is successful with a single that’s in the top 10 for one week, and the follow up is not successful and the single goes number one RMV as in the top 10 for six weeks, that’s not a sign of promotion or album cover, that is an indication the public is it not into the group. When they buy the singles and not the album, you need to face up to the fact that the act needs work Barry didn’t want to work with Jean, mary didn’t want to work without Jean, that was her call. If Motown lost interest in the Supremes, they wouldn’t have asked Smokie and Jimmy Webb to do albums with them. They were looking for signs of life. I do believe that Motown stopped thinking of the Supremes, as an A act, because they really weren’t anymore. For whatever reason they weren’t anymore. Once Jean left, Barry offered to work with the group again, that’s not lack of interest.

i agree that motown didn't immediately lose interest in the group. motown, for the most part, followed the scent of money. and everyone could see that there was still plenty to be made with The Supremes. the group was given elaborate album packages with posters, gatefold covers, expensive die cuts. plus they did that whole dj interview promotional lp with Touch. Now that's not to say motown didn't make some dumb decisions but they were still actively making decisions for the group.

i don't fully agree with your "the buying public left" part, at least not at the beginning. The peak position a song hits on a chart is certainly important but so is the duration a song sits on the charts. Ladder was on the charts 11 weeks. not the longest run ever but tied with Love is Here, Reflections, Back in my Arms Again, and others. so that's very strong showing. SL was on the charts 14 weeks, the same as WDOLG, and was a massive hit, selling millions.

Nathan is odd, in that it was moving up the charts very well. it was following the trajectory of Ladder and SL. nice big leaps up the charts during it's first weeks. According to Bayou, as NJ was doing well but Reach out I'll be There by Diana wasn't, motown pulled promotion of the Sups in favor of Diana. although that song never really had a chance to be honest.

Agreed that Everybody's Got the Right was a weak follow up to Ladder and that the group was in a VERY critical stage of their career where they couldn't afford weak decisions. it's almost like the group died a death of 1,000 cuts. too many small mistakes or stupid little decisions that all add up to the end. Americans are fickle and in the early 70s there were TONS of options to peal attention away from the group. poorer decisions in single releases, sloppy album packages, an increasingly stale group image, etc all adds up to declining interest by the public.

[BayouMotownMan]

Many of these points are valid, some not. Truth is during that period after the Farewell in England June 1977, the Supremes started going in three or more different directions. If you spoke to each lady you'd get a different accounting of what was going on. It was that disorganized.

Scherrie and Susaye returned to the States after this gig before Mary did. I do remember hearing the names Gail Bullock and Karen Knox as has been mentioned. I don't know if they auditioned or just names thrown around. Scherrie was pretty much letting Susaye called the shots because she was grieving the recent death of her mom. Susaye was gung ho about another group of Supremes, Scherrie was like, whatever. She was going through a bad emotional time. Add to this her breakup with Lamont Dozier.

Mary returned to the USA, as mentioned above, to find there was no solo deal. Yes, I would agree that had there been dates in South America, the other ladies would have known about it. It was a hasty booking as Supremes Inc was swimming in red.

To my memory when Scherrie and Susaye were contacted about Mary rejoining the group for this tour they immediately said no, they had done their farewell. I do not recall Mary and Pedro renegotiating with them for Mary to return on a long term basis, or the ladies wanting Mary but not Pedro. Motown had been puffing up Scherrie and Su for about a year with promises of big things if they could rid themselves of Mary and Pedro so I don't see how those negotiations would happen.

A devoted fan told me during this period that Mary was indeed trying to hold on to the group after the farewell. He was with her when she was called into a meeting with Motown execs, about to give birth to her second child when she broke down crying and saying, "I guess it's over." Indeed it was and the lawsuits started flying.

It was a heartbreaking time to see this once stellar group reduced to lawsuits and accusations. Mary continued to tour overseas mostly with new girls. Many times she would show up to a gig where the venue was cancelled because Motown threatened the venue with a lawsuit. Mary had to book things quickly and privately in most cases.

In 1978, Joyce was free of TOADS and she was announced as the new Supreme. It is true that Mary did go to Diana to get her to stop the progress of a new group. Berry Gordy agreed that the Supremes should not continue without an original member. Lawsuits were settled and each lady was offered a solo deal. They had been starved into remission basically. Motown's solo deals gave them the upper hand, a five year contract with yearly options to renew at Motown's discretion. Within a year of each release, Partners and Mary Wilson, all three ladies were set free.

[TheMotownManiac]

I’m sorry I wasn’t referring to the singles, the sale of singles is not a harbinger of interest in the group. People via record because they like the sound of it, not because of who’s singing it. Generally. Albums are where are you gauge interest in the group. You are spending quite a sum of money taking a chance on you’re going to like all the other songs that you have never heard. That, and ticket sales, really gauge the strength of an act. If you have hit singles, like The Supremes did, but relatively poor album, sales, that is not a good sign. When the touch album failed, Motown got Smokey to do the album, and then Jimmy Webb, because they had interest in the group. And the group was slipping so they were trying to change things up. I think Miss Ross has more reason to squawk about how they handled her records than The Supremes do.

[sup_fan]

I’m sorry I wasn’t referring to the singles, the sale of singles is not a harbinger of interest in the group. People via record because they like the sound of it, not because of who’s singing it. Generally. Albums are where are you gauge interest in the group. You are spending quite a sum of money taking a chance on you’re going to like all the other songs that you have never heard. That, and ticket sales, really gauge the strength of an act. If you have hit singles, like The Supremes did, but relatively poor album, sales, that is not a good sign. When the touch album failed, Motown got Smokey to do the album, and then Jimmy Webb, because they had interest in the group. And the group was slipping so they were trying to change things up. I think Miss Ross has more reason to squawk about how they handled her records than The Supremes do.

completely agree with all of this. Right On sold decent. a bit better than the DRATS records, other than Love Child and Join. but then they seem to have hit a wall. the J5 and Temps albums were selling tons and charting high. the Tops, Sups and even DR weren't. Diana's albums would chart a little higher than the sups but i think that's because Diana did have a bigger promotional budget and motown was really working to get those albums to do better.

a big part of all of this is just that the group had run it's course to some degree. every artist and group had a lifespan and the Sups had been declining since 68 or so.

but motown had paid almost maniacal attention to every single detail of the Sups career in 64 - 67. had they paid that level of attention to the 70s Sups, things would have been better IMO.

[daviddh]

I think with Diana ,they were more of a pop group , with Jean, more soulful.
But ,as early as 1968, to many standards and Broadway songs, alienated the young record buying public.
By 1971, things were trailing off.
They went from being on TV to not.
Where was the promo for NJ.
Only 1 show ,tonight show performance.
Maybe touring UK , but I don't recall seeing them again until they sang FJ on Merv Griffin dec 71

[jobeterob]

The only point I would add to these posts is there was an interview with Mary where she said none of the 70’s albums sold well. My memory is that I saw Right On listed at 250,000. The rest were less.

By the end of 1972, LSTB shipped 300,000 copies in its first week and sold over 2,000,000 copies - more than the 70’s Supremes albums combined.

Record companies like all companies, follow the scent of money.

[blackguy69]

They spent the summer touring the US appeared on Flip around October. Went to The UK In November and December. They did FJ 0n merv in January 27, 1972

I think with Diana ,they were more of a pop group , with Jean, more soulful.
But ,as early as 1968, to many standards and Broadway songs, alienated the young record buying public.
By 1971, things were trailing off.
They went from being on TV to not.
Where was the promo for NJ.
Only 1 show ,tonight show performance.
Maybe touring UK , but I don't recall seeing them again until they sang FJ on Merv Griffin dec 71

[sup_fan]

NJ was released on 4/15/71

there was a David Frost performance on 4/30 and the Tonight Show on 5/5. my guess is they probably did NJ on David too, since it was only days prior to Tonight Show. I don't have any dates listed for a Merv Griffin or Mike Douglas performance. Ed Sullivan was off the air by this time - March 28, 1971. The Andy Williams Show ended in 71 too but i don't know when exactly. but Glen Campbell was still going. Sonny And Cher Show didn't start until Aug 71. And it's odd the girls never appeared on Carol Burnett.

during this time they were also doing extended gigs at several big hotels in big cities

April 23 - May 1: Twin Coaches, Pittsburgh
May: Americana in NYC
May 19 - 26: Polynesian Palace, Honolulu
June 3 - 7: San Carlos, CA
June: Palmer House, Chicago
July 2 - 4: Greek Theater, LA
summer 71: Central Park
July 26 - Aug 6: Tomorrowland Stage, Disneyland
Aug 9 - 15: Cater Barron w/ the Tops, DC
Sept: Frontier Hotel, Vegas

plus there were assorted 1-nighters in various towns.

it's very possible they did more local tv gigs based on where they were and sang NJ on some of those. But Motown also released You Gotta Have Love on 4/11, just days prior to NJ. the Touch lp was released in June and Return Mag 7 in July

[TheMotownManiac]

completely agree with all of this. Right On sold decent. a bit better than the DRATS records, other than Love Child and Join. but then they seem to have hit a wall. the J5 and Temps albums were selling tons and charting high. the Tops, Sups and even DR weren't. Diana's albums would chart a little higher than the sups but i think that's because Diana did have a bigger promotional budget and motown was really working to get those albums to do better.

a big part of all of this is just that the group had run it's course to some degree. every artist and group had a lifespan and the Sups had been declining since 68 or so.

but motown had paid almost maniacal attention to every single detail of the Sups career in 64 - 67. had they paid that level of attention to the 70s Sups, things would have been better IMO.

I don’t believe that promotional budget stuff for an Albums. How on earth did they use promotional money to promote everything I don’t believe that promotional budget stuff for an Albums. How on earth did they use promotional money to promote everything is everything? They weren’t even trying to get it on the radio because they didn’t even have a single. If there were promotional budgets for an Albums at Motown for the Supremes or diana ross, will someone please tell me what they spent it on? Billboard @They weren’t even trying to get it on the radio because they didn’t even have a single. If there were promotional budgets for a Albums at Motown for the Supremes or diana ross, will someone please tell me what they spent it on? Billboard ads?

Diana Ross albums sold better because diana ross was the voice of the Supremes that created history, and a lot of people liked that voice. Certainly anyone would expect her to out draw the background voices of the Supremes with a new leader, until the leader proved themselves. The problem is, it’s very rare for that to work, for every Dennis Edwards, there are 1 million that don’t make it. With 33% of the original lineup, people were losing interest they didn’t know who they were. General Foods still calls, tang, tang, but they change the formula and it doesn’t taste like tang. I’m sure some people like the new taste of tang and I’m sure there are others. They just keep drinking it because they’ve always drank it. But it has a very small place on the shelf these days.
And even the Temptations were slipping after Paul and Eddie left. They were still having hit singles for a while, and their albums were still doing well for a while, but they weren’t getting the gigs they were getting before. Those took a big step down. And yes, you still had Melvin and Otis, but who are these other people? The Temptations or tang? Otis was the Mary Wilson of the Temptations, they held on for dear life, because they wanted a career singing, and had no other options. Although I’m not comparing their talents because I feel Mary had viable talent that needed to be put in the correct direction. Otis, not so much.

Gordy’s told Mary he did not want to work with Jean Terrell, she made that decision. There’s no reason to blame him for that. With a Jackson 5, exploding, launching, diana ross, the Temptations imploding, and the slippage of all the other groups at Motown, Gordy had things to do. He had given up, trying to work with Jean Terrell, and I don’t blame him for refusing to work with someone he didn’t want to work with when he was being stretched so thin anyway. Plus he got them Hella bookings to launch with, and arguably Motown‘s hottest producer to craft their sound. I’m certain he could’ve done more, but at the expense of what? They made some great records. They paired them with the Four Tops. I believe they did what they could. Only one of Ross’ early singles had impressive numbers, was that for lack of promotion? You can’t hold a gun to the record buyers head, [[although I’m sure a few program directors found themselves in that position over the years.)
I believe in looking on the bright side, and they certainly had talent, but they were matronly, square, they were selling a separate club act to a rapidly changing Fanbase that did not want that, and their faces were strangers to the casual fan. I wanted them to do well, I had Supremes in my blood, but they didn’t have “it” any more.

[TheMotownManiac]

The only point I would add to these posts is there was an interview with Mary where she said none of the 70’s albums sold well. My memory is that I saw Right On listed at 250,000. The rest were less.

By the end of 1972, LSTB shipped 300,000 copies in its first week and sold over 2,000,000 copies - more than the 70’s Supremes albums combined.

Record companies like all companies, follow the scent of money.

exactly. And I think that right on performed well enough, especially on the strength of a single with just one week in the top 10. And did chart higher than cream of the crop, talk about terrible album covers! If any cover ever scared buyers away, it was that. It did have competition with greatest hits volume 34 someday we’ll be together listeners, but that excuse only works so far. They spent 30 seconds playing that album cover together and it showed. They were doubling down on the Supremes image for their last album and I think it was a bad idea. Anything showing them Even a little more hip would’ve helped a great deal. But for JMC, after right on, it was downhill fast after that.

I don’t believe right on sold 250,000 copies ever, and I never believe that 300,000 Lady sings the blues copies in the first week, although I do believe it’s sold in excess of 2 million. Not only did it go to number one, but it was on the chart for a year and never out of print.

[sup_fan]

I believe in looking on the bright side, and they certainly had talent, but they were matronly, square, they were selling a separate club act to a rapidly changing Fanbase that did not want that, and their faces were strangers to the casual fan. I wanted them to do well, I had Supremes in my blood, but they didn’t have “it” any more.

i agree with your comment on their style and look. when jean first came on board, the combination of the hype of Diana leaving and a new girl coming on, the fact that new girl had a great voice and the magic of Ladder, made initial enthusiasm for the group strong.

but in looking at some of the tv clips of them, yes they didn't look hip any more. there's a clip used i think in one of the Motown anniversary tv shows about the look and style of the sups back in 65 and 66 and 67. at that time, people were wondering what they'd look like and wear on their next Sullivan appearance. there was excitement and anticipation.

they needed to recreate that in the 70s. some of the outfits while Jean was there were great. others were less so. and not that the outfits were necessarily ugly. but they weren't WOW. they didn't make you wonder "what will they wear next"

the outfits were really quite conservative. they didn't show a lot of skin.

the pantsuits on Glen Campbell, Andy Williams and Tom Jones were all pretty good IMO. the fringe look was great especially. and the white mini dresses from Central Park.

but it's more than just the outfits they were wearing. motown was playing it too safe and keeping their image too squeaky clean. not that they needed a sex scandal or something. but they needed to modernize

[marybrewster]

So the question is: did Mary have buyers remorse about leaving the Supremes? It's "all she had known" for almost two decades, and I'd say, for all intent and purposes, something she was very comfortable with. Was Pedro the real push for her to go solo? Did Mary even WANT to leave the Supremes? Other than perhaps getting a bigger piece of the pie, her look, staging, set list, and costuming [[complete woth two background singers) stayed the same from 1977 well into the 80's.

[blackguy69]

Something tells me it was his idea

So the question is: did Mary have buyers remorse about leaving the Supremes? It's "all she had known" for almost two decades, and I'd say, for all intent and purposes, something she was very comfortable with. Was Pedro the real push for her to go solo? Did Mary even WANT to leave the Supremes? Other than perhaps getting a bigger piece of the pie, her look, staging, set list, and costuming [[complete woth two background singers) stayed the same from 1977 well into the 80's.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I believe I saw an interview that Mary stated that Pedro had pushed her to go solo and that she wondered if she would have gone solo at that time if he hadn't pushed her. Can't remember the interview or I'd post it.

[sup_fan]

I believe I saw an interview that Mary stated that Pedro had pushed her to go solo and that she wondered if she would have gone solo at that time if he hadn't pushed her. Can't remember the interview or I'd post it.

i thought it was Supreme Faith book that mentioned that. perhaps while on talk shows promoting it, she mentioned it again.

my guess is that Mary was best with the group, and that's something she thought too. of course i'm just guessing. but her personality and approach to things seems to be very collaborative and group-minded. as opposed to people that are more one-off. mary seems to have been very much into having a wide group of friends. knows a lot of people, social butterfly, etc. Diana was more of a loner personality.

[daviddh]

They spent the summer touring the US appeared on Flip around October. Went to The UK In November and December. They did FJ 0n merv in January 27, 1972

thank you for this info.

[TheMotownManiac]

So the question is: did Mary have buyers remorse about leaving the Supremes? It's "all she had known" for almost two decades, and I'd say, for all intent and purposes, something she was very comfortable with. Was Pedro the real push for her to go solo? Did Mary even WANT to leave the Supremes? Other than perhaps getting a bigger piece of the pie, her look, staging, set list, and costuming [[complete woth two background singers) stayed the same from 1977 well into the 80's.

it’s so hard to tell what Mary wanted while she lived with that wife beater. I think she mentioned a few times in her book that Pedro like to spend a lot of money, and, Mary didn’t have a taste for the finer things, but I don’t know if she was the type to live beyond her means or not. He may have wanted her to go solo because the money wouldn’t have to be divided three ways or however, it was divided by then. Personally, I don’t think Mary interacted that well with the other two, she interacted often, but it always seemed very phony to me. I think , from the time I began to see her as a solo, that she was much more at ease, and much much more enjoyable. And I’m not just talking about her vocal performance, but her stage manner as well. I didn’t see her for a couple years, and when I did finally get to start, catching her act again, found that she had grown beautifully as an all-around performer.

[Thornton]

it’s so hard to tell what Mary wanted while she lived with that wife beater. I think she mentioned a few times in her book that Pedro like to spend a lot of money, and, Mary didn’t have a taste for the finer things, but I don’t know if she was the type to live beyond her means or not. He may have wanted her to go solo because the money wouldn’t have to be divided three ways or however, it was divided by then. Personally, I don’t think Mary interacted that well with the other two, she interacted often, but it always seemed very phony to me. I think , from the time I began to see her as a solo, that she was much more at ease, and much much more enjoyable. And I’m not just talking about her vocal performance, but her stage manner as well. I didn’t see her for a couple years, and when I did finally get to start, catching her act again, found that she had grown beautifully as an all-around performer.

This is the point that I think a lot of people miss. Mary was in an abusive marriage while trying to raise her children, grieve Florence's death, and keep the group afloat. I personally wouldn't be in the best frame of mind to make serious decisions about my life and career if I were in that situation. In a way, it shows Mary's tenacity that she always kept moving forward.

It's a shame that the final two lineups of The Supremes weren't given the chance to meet their full potential, but I'm so grateful for what they left us.

[marybrewster]

This is the point that I think a lot of people miss. Mary was in an abusive marriage while trying to raise her children, grieve Florence's death, and keep the group afloat. I personally wouldn't be in the best frame of mind to make serious decisions about my life and career if I were in that situation. In a way, it shows Mary's tenacity that she always kept moving forward.

It's a shame that the final two lineups of The Supremes weren't given the chance to meet their full potential, but I'm so grateful for what they left us.

Cheers to that.

Isn't it true an abuser usually likes to isolate you from those you're closest to? Susaye, and especially Scherrie, perhaps posed a bigger threat we can wrap our heads around.

[Thornton]

Cheers to that.
Isn't it true an abuser usually likes to isolate you from those you're closest to? Susaye, and especially Scherrie, perhaps posed a bigger threat we can wrap our heads around.

Yes, that is a tactic, and it wouldn't surprise me if Pedro was secretly threatened by Scherrie, Cindy, and Susaye. Although the former two seemed more like Mary's confidants than Susaye was.

[bradsupremes]

Yes, that is a tactic, and it wouldn't surprise me if Pedro was secretly threatened by Scherrie, Cindy, and Susaye. Although the former two seemed more like Mary's confidants than Susaye was.

I've always felt Cindy's firing was due to Pedro's jealousy. Aside from Mary, she had been around the longest. Her value carried weight. Plus she had valid input and criticism about the direction of the group and she had influence on Mary.

[jobeterob]

I've always felt Cindy's firing was due to Pedro's jealousy. Aside from Mary, she had been around the longest. Her value carried weight. Plus she had valid input and criticism about the direction of the group and she had influence on Mary.

I wonder if Mary ever had issues with her conscience and how what she did with RTL ended up affecting Cindy and with the regrets Cindy expressed over giving Mary ability to speak for her?

[Ollie9]

I wonder if Mary ever had issues with her conscience and how what she did with RTL ended up affecting Cindy and with the regrets Cindy expressed over giving Mary ability to speak for her?

Mary could be proud that she refused to “Just show up”.
Cindy hopefully learnt a lesson that you need to stand on your own two feet when negotiating important business deals.
Diana perhaps learnt that negotiating is not always simply about money as others need to feel respected as well.

[sup_fan]

Yes, that is a tactic, and it wouldn't surprise me if Pedro was secretly threatened by Scherrie, Cindy, and Susaye. Although the former two seemed more like Mary's confidants than Susaye was.

this is by no means a validation of Pedro's abuse but in regards to making him the group's manager and letting him so far into her life, Mary did have quite a few people pushing back. and people that were close to her. in her book, she mentions that her mother tried to convince her not to marry pedro. willie didn't get along with him. clearly Scherrie and Cindy did not. Even Berry tried to convince her otherwise when she told him she was making him the manager.

it's a sad and terrible thing when someone who is smart, beautiful and talented somehow is brainwashed to think "this 1 person is my ONLY option"

[sup_fan]

i do think the MSC lineup was excellent. their vocals were just a perfect blend and visually they looked lovely

but i also totally love the MSS lineup. Susaye was [[and still is!) an amazing vocalist and added such a unique dimension to the group. her vocal abilities were totally different than the talent C or M provided. and even considerably different from Scherrie's talent.

the Sups were originally a quartet - so what if in 76 the group DIDN'T kick Cindy out but went ahead and added Susaye? returning the group to a quartet? i know no one really remembers the original 4-some. but hey - might have been enough of a shakeup, along with a revamping of the look/gowns and the stage act.

[bradsupremes]

I wonder if Mary ever had issues with her conscience and how what she did with RTL ended up affecting Cindy and with the regrets Cindy expressed over giving Mary ability to speak for her?

Not sure, although I'm willing to bet that if Pedro wasn't in the picture, Cindy wouldn't have been fired and the MSC lineup would have kept going and going well into the 80s much like the Pointer Sisters and the Three Degrees.