MSS After M

[bradsupremes]

What's curious to me too is; when getting paid out for FLOY JOY and HIGH ENERGY, did Cindy get a cut? Or was it forfeited to Lynda and Susaye? It's her vocals, but their image.

I think since Cindy was in the group when the tracks were recorded that she would have gotten them especially Floy Joy. Then again, I guess it would come down to the contracts and when both Lynda and Susaye signed recording contracts with Motown. If the tracks were recorded before they signed then I'm guessing they didn't receive anything from those albums. Susaye may be different since she's on "High Energy" and "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." Then again, I'm not sure how it all translated for Cindy if she left on her own in 1972 and then fired in 1976. Not sure if that changed anything. This is all speculation on my part.

[RanRan79]

This obsession or fixation amongst some of you with who's getting royalties and how much income they made/make is intrusively tacky, unseemly and really none of your business.

Y'all doing the most in this thread. Lol

Anyway, that's a weird take. These are public figures and quite honestly, we're talking about money most- if not all in this thread- have paid into. It would be intrusive to get into how much money any of these ladies have in their bank accounts, currently. How is it intrusive to wonder about how much money "Baby Love" or "Stoned Love" made, and who made it? Is it also intrusive to question how much money Amazon is raking in? What about how much Jeff Bezos is making from the site? And if that's not intrusive, then why is it so regarding the Supremes, HDH, Berry Gordy?

[RanRan79]

For Florence and Cindy to sign them away was absolutely totally stupid - it is unbelievable that would happen. That only happens when a naive uninformed person gets offered some lump sum and they are desperate for money. Cindy and Flo doomed themselves by signing them away.

Florence wasn't stupid. She had legal representation that advised her that the lump sum would be worth more than annual payments in a world where the full scope of the value of royalties was something only the big execs within the business truly understood. Hence why they were always trying to steal artist royalties. And even the big guys couldn't have foreseen the explosion of money that would come with the nostalgia movement and the use of music in movies, tv shows and commercials.

I don't know what, if any, representation Cindy had when she signed away her rights. What I do know is that if a person is facing homelessness or hunger, especially that of a child, medical bills, etc, saying to them "if you can survive starving, living on the street, or delaying medical care for another year, you'll get a nice check" probably won't cut it. Desperate people do desperate things. Cut the ladies some slack if you aren't in their position.

[RanRan79]

Based on the defensive replies so far to my post, sounds like I struck a nerve amongst those who are more comfortable dwelling in the shallow and materialistic realms of life such as other people's income. Anyway go ahead and focus on that if that is what you're most comfortable with. You're just as judgemental as I am.

Bruh, your post was nasty and insulting for no real reason. Own it.

[jobeterob]

If you participated on the recording, you would get the royalty - it doesn’t matter who’s picture is on the album cover

Hired background singers get their salary - no royalty

One very interesting question would be who received royalties from Love Child and SWBT and those other songs where there was no Florence, Mary or Cindy?

It would depend on the exact wording of their contract with Motown but if it said you receive royalties if you sang on a recording, it would not surprise me if Motown and other record companies did not pay royalties to those people for those recordings - they’d just keep them. That might have been one of the issues in their litigation. Maybe they weren’t even invited to participate.

Very interesting questions.

[marybrewster]

Exactly. Bingo!

I was having a conversation with a coworker about the Rolling Stones as they just announced another summer tour and are coming to town. We talked about bands like the Stones figured out to be successful as a unit than strike out on their own like the Beatles - there was more money to be made together than separate. Like you said, some of these folks don't even like each other but they are willing to side step it if the price is right. If a good business decision makes sense, act on it.

To that point, I've been a Show Director for the better part of three decades, and one thing I've learned about "the business" is that I need to get over myself. There are definitely a few entertainers that I don't like working with, for various reasons. But they're good entertainers. And good entertainers make a good show. So why would I compromise quality over my own supposed ego? You don't have to be besties with everyone you step onstage with. It helps, but it's not required. I'm sure we all work with someone we're never going to go to happy hour with or text on the weekends. But you work together and get it done. Diana and Mary never figured that out.

[marybrewster]

Brad these are excellent posts about the business side of the music industry and they are very logical - they make perfect legal sense.

Also Mary’s explanations about why this matters.

I totally agree that there is nothing at all wrong with this discussion. Most Motown artists were left with next to nothing from their careers. About 6 of made incredible fortunes. There are lessons in that for all of us. In my law practice, I saw it regularly - totally uncalled for, poor decisions that cost people their livelihoods and their retirement incomes and their family relationships.

It is the same when you sign away royalties, hire unscrupulous managers and pass up opportunities to make a fortune on a tour because you and your colleagues don’t get along. The smart guys in this are the Jaggers and the Richards who don’t like each other but are in bed with each other with $500 million dollars in their back pockets.

Do you know that the average NHL career is 4 years long and most of the guys don’t have any financial security at the end of it. But there are 10 of them who have $100 million dollars each.

The story is exactly the same as what happened at Motown and what happens to car dealers and fund managers and lawyers etc etc

It’s life

Money makes people crazy. I work in finance and see it on a daily basis. I've seen families fall apart over estates that aren't enough to pay for a nice dinner.

[marybrewster]

If you participated on the recording, you would get the royalty - it doesn’t matter who’s picture is on the album cover

Hired background singers get their salary - no royalty

One very interesting question would be who received royalties from Love Child and SWBT and those other songs where there was no Florence, Mary or Cindy?

It would depend on the exact wording of their contract with Motown but if it said you receive royalties if you sang on a recording, it would not surprise me if Motown and other record companies did not pay royalties to those people for those recordings - they’d just keep them. That might have been one of the issues in their litigation. Maybe they weren’t even invited to participate.

Very interesting questions.

Love Child and SWBT make an interesting topic, especially where Cindy in concerned. With Mary, her royalties would be based on either 10 or 12 #1 hits, where I assume the "meat" is. Not too shabby either way. With Cindy, if you're not including those hits, there isn't much on the bone. So PERHAPS in her case taking the lump sum was a good idea?

I guess a better question is: let's assume Diana, Mary, Flo, and Cindy get royalties. When a "Greatest Hits" compliation is released [[let's just say 1964-1969) how does THAT break down? Everyone gets 1/4? Or Diana and Mary get 35% each, Flo gets 20% and Cindy gets 10%?

[blackguy69]

I’m suprised some on here never figured out how Mary receives royalties for LC and Someday of which it’s very simple, the flip side. Since Mary and Cindy sang on the flip side of those hits in essence those songs sold and pow, royalties.

[jobeterob]

I’m suprised some on here never figured out how Mary receives royalties for LC and Someday of which it’s very simple, the flip side. Since Mary and Cindy sang on the flip side of those hits in essence those songs sold and pow, royalties.

Good one! For the singles, I think you are right

For albums, it could be more complicated but I bet they all have a formula - and it’ll favour the record company

R Dean Taylor posted on here years ago and said after splitting it 27 ways, he got very little from Love Child

[sup_fan]

Love Child and SWBT make an interesting topic, especially where Cindy in concerned. With Mary, her royalties would be based on either 10 or 12 #1 hits, where I assume the "meat" is. Not too shabby either way. With Cindy, if you're not including those hits, there isn't much on the bone. So PERHAPS in her case taking the lump sum was a good idea?

I guess a better question is: let's assume Diana, Mary, Flo, and Cindy get royalties. When a "Greatest Hits" compliation is released [[let's just say 1964-1969) how does THAT break down? Everyone gets 1/4? Or Diana and Mary get 35% each, Flo gets 20% and Cindy gets 10%?

it would depend on the royalty structures in their contracts. while Diana was in the group, the royalties were all split 3 ways, evenly. Diana wasn't paid more being the lead singer. and M and C got their full royalty compensation from LC, SWBT and all of the rest. Motown did not make any attempt to revise things based on who was singing or doing what. The record was released as a "Diana Ross and The Supremes" single and so the payment structure was set. there was nothing in the contracts about "if someone else sings your part..."

[sup_fan]

I’m suprised some on here never figured out how Mary receives royalties for LC and Someday of which it’s very simple, the flip side. Since Mary and Cindy sang on the flip side of those hits in essence those songs sold and pow, royalties.

it wasn't about the flip side. Mary's contract stated the group would receive $X for each 45 sold and $Y for each lp. didn't matter who was actually singing. if they'd issued some tune with only Diana [[like Yesterday or Ode to Billie or whatever) M and C would still receive royalties because it was a single released under the name The Supremes.

now the producers are a different matter. Norman Whitfield got a crap ton of money because He Means The World To me [[which he produced) was the flip to WDOLG. even though He Means is a pretty crappy tune lol.

[sup_fan]

I think since Cindy was in the group when the tracks were recorded that she would have gotten them especially Floy Joy. Then again, I guess it would come down to the contracts and when both Lynda and Susaye signed recording contracts with Motown. If the tracks were recorded before they signed then I'm guessing they didn't receive anything from those albums. Susaye may be different since she's on "High Energy" and "I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking." Then again, I'm not sure how it all translated for Cindy if she left on her own in 1972 and then fired in 1976. Not sure if that changed anything. This is all speculation on my part.

i think it would depend on whatever was in Cindy's exit agreement. I'm not sure why she apparently didn't technically "leave" motown in 72 but i think she still was under contract and when she returned in late 73 she was still technically a supreme.

and then there's jean - did she ask to be released from her contract? and if so, what were those terms. or did she simply leave when the contract expired?

[blackguy69]

I do know that

it wasn't about the flip side. Mary's contract stated the group would receive $X for each 45 sold and $Y for each lp. didn't matter who was actually singing. if they'd issued some tune with only Diana [[like Yesterday or Ode to Billie or whatever) M and C would still receive royalties because it was a single released under the name The Supremes.

now the producers are a different matter. Norman Whitfield got a crap ton of money because He Means The World To me [[which he produced) was the flip to WDOLG. even though He Means is a pretty crappy tune lol.

[jobeterob]

i think it would depend on whatever was in Cindy's exit agreement. I'm not sure why she apparently didn't technically "leave" motown in 72 but i think she still was under contract and when she returned in late 73 she was still technically a supreme.

and then there's jean - did she ask to be released from her contract? and if so, what were those terms. or did she simply leave when the contract expired?

Just because they left the group [[either kicked out by Mary or Pedro or fed up and left) doesn’t mean they weren’t still under contract to Motown. For several years the group did nothing and Motown probably didn’t care who was in and who was out because they weren’t making records or money.

[jobeterob]

it wasn't about the flip side. Mary's contract stated the group would receive $X for each 45 sold and $Y for each lp. didn't matter who was actually singing. if they'd issued some tune with only Diana [[like Yesterday or Ode to Billie or whatever) M and C would still receive royalties because it was a single released under the name The Supremes.

now the producers are a different matter. Norman Whitfield got a crap ton of money because He Means The World To me [[which he produced) was the flip to WDOLG. even though He Means is a pretty crappy tune lol.

I don’t think this is right.

It depends on the contract.

If the contract says you get royalties if you sing on a record, you need to sing on the record or the flip side.

If the contract says you get royalties if we release anything under the name Supremes, then you would get royalties if a record were released under the name Supremes.

I would bet $20 that no record company had a contract that said the later.

[bradsupremes]

I’m pretty sure Cindy said in an interview she still was under contract to Motown till 1977 even though she was out of the group.

[sup_fan]

I don’t think this is right.

It depends on the contract.

If the contract says you get royalties if you sing on a record, you need to sing on the record or the flip side.

If the contract says you get royalties if we release anything under the name Supremes, then you would get royalties if a record were released under the name Supremes.

I would bet $20 that no record company had a contract that said the later.

Of course it depends on the contract. A contract could potentially be written a variety of ways. I’ve not read copies of the actual contracts but in all of Randy’s books he’s mentioned that the royalty structure was based on the releases. Not how much or what you sang on. m and F still got royalties from Merry Christmas. It was an official release for the group and so the group got paid. The As and whatever other session singers were paid a salary. They were not on royalties. Love Child was an official DRATS release and so per the contract all three women would receive royalties

[sup_fan]

I’m pretty sure Cindy said in an interview she still was under contract to Motown till 1977 even though she was out of the group.

Someone said Cindy still participated in the He sessions even though she was fired by Pedro so that she would receive royalties

[jobeterob]

Of course it depends on the contract. A contract could potentially be written a variety of ways. I’ve not read copies of the actual contracts but in all of Randy’s books he’s mentioned that the royalty structure was based on the releases. Not how much or what you sang on. m and F still got royalties from Merry Christmas. It was an official release for the group and so the group got paid. The As and whatever other session singers were paid a salary. They were not on royalties. Love Child was an official DRATS release and so per the contract all three women would receive royalties

It’s possible but I think it also might be wishful thinking on your part.

At some stage [[or right from square one), I can see Motown, chess, Universal [[but especially the smaller companies) going - “they did not appear on this record and their contact says they get paid for singing on it” - and they just don’t pay them for those records.

The legalities are the legalities - and when you don’t get advice and don’t care about what you sign, sometimes you get strange results

[RanRan79]

I don’t believe that promotional budget stuff for an Albums. How on earth did they use promotional money to promote everything I don’t believe that promotional budget stuff for an Albums. How on earth did they use promotional money to promote everything is everything? They weren’t even trying to get it on the radio because they didn’t even have a single. If there were promotional budgets for an Albums at Motown for the Supremes or diana ross, will someone please tell me what they spent it on?

Record companies, like all businesses that have products to promote, have promotion budgets. That's just business 101. Anything Motown did to promote the music of the Supremes, Diana Ross, and anyone else at the label at any given time cost money, and someone at the label- I'm guessing in the accounts department- would have decided how much money could be spent promoting said product. And with those decisions, there would likely be so much money thrown at some products while others may not receive the same amount. For instance, the J5 may have had a million dollar budget for promotion [[I'm just using an amount for example) because the return in 1970/71 was expected to be three or four times that amount. Meanwhile, the budget for Martha Reeves and the Vandellas might be five thousand dollars because at best, Motown might have figured they could only squeeze ten thousand out of the public for Martha and the ladies' albums and singles and make at least a small profit from a low sales figure performer.

[blackguy69]

The High Energy album sessions started sometime late November-December 1975 do that would mean Cindy sang on it

Someone said Cindy still participated in the He sessions even though ex she was fired by Pedro so that she would receive royalties

[sup_fan]

The High Energy album sessions started sometime late November-December 1975 do that would mean Cindy sang on it

although it could very well be incomplete, the first dates we have for sessions for HE begin in Jan. Backing vocals for There's Room at the Top were on 1/6 but we don't have the dates the instrumentals were recorded [[obviously had to happen prior to 1/6)

for the released HE material, the first date we have is the backing tracks for You're What's Missing, Teardrops, Boat Sail Away and I Don't Want To Lose You on 1/27

Scherrie did lead vocals on Walking on 1/29. and then the dates we have for the rest of Jan are doing other backing tracks for HE songs and adding horns, strings, etc

The girls were playing the Hook and Ladder Club in Toronto from Jan 26 - 31. supposedly on the trip home is when Cindy was officially fired. the story is while at the airport. so that would probably be 2/1 maybe?


the rest of the vocals are listed as being recorded in Feb. on 2/6 mary did her lead on I Don't Want to Lose You.

2/9 is the first date we have for backing vocals recorded on You're What's Missing.

[blackguy69]

We don’t know the exact date Cindy was fired but we do know susaye did record her lead to Walking on Feb. 18. I’m guessing between February 1st and February 15 is when Cindy was let go.

although it could very well be incomplete, the first dates we have for sessions for HE begin in Jan. Backing vocals for There's Room at the Top were on 1/6 but we don't have the dates the instrumentals were recorded [[obviously had to happen prior to 1/6)

for the released HE material, the first date we have is the backing tracks for You're What's Missing, Teardrops, Boat Sail Away and I Don't Want To Lose You on 1/27

Scherrie did lead vocals on Walking on 1/29. and then the dates we have for the rest of Jan are doing other backing tracks for HE songs and adding horns, strings, etc

The girls were playing the Hook and Ladder Club in Toronto from Jan 26 - 31. supposedly on the trip home is when Cindy was officially fired. the story is while at the airport. so that would probably be 2/1 maybe?


the rest of the vocals are listed as being recorded in Feb. on 2/6 mary did her lead on I Don't Want to Lose You.

2/9 is the first date we have for backing vocals recorded on You're What's Missing.

[sup_fan]

We don’t know the exact date Cindy was fired but we do know susaye did record her lead to Walking on Feb. 18. I’m guessing between February 1st and February 15 is when Cindy was let go.

the story fans have bounced around is that on the actual trip home from the Toronto show, cindy was informed by pedro she was fired. and that Scherrie learned of this while at the airport and supposedly considered quitting right then and there too. of course all of this coming to us third-hand

and all that means is Pedro told her that. Cindy was a contracted supreme and so her dismissal could have taken longer. you're right that the actual date could be later. and then did she continue to sing on the HE tracks?

and when did pedro first meet Susaye? another story is that pedro was eager to bring Susaye into the group to reinvent their sound and style. something new and fresh. so maybe he was just looking for a reason to ditch cindy.

[blackguy69]

It’s hard to say since these stories get retold and revamped. But we do know when Mary and Cindy did the South American tour, she was still under contract as a Supreme

the story fans have bounced around is that on the actual trip home from the Toronto show, cindy was informed by pedro she was fired. and that Scherrie learned of this while at the airport and supposedly considered quitting right then and there too. of course all of this coming to us third-hand

and all that means is Pedro told her that. Cindy was a contracted supreme and so her dismissal could have taken longer. you're right that the actual date could be later. and then did she continue to sing on the HE tracks?

and when did pedro first meet Susaye? another story is that pedro was eager to bring Susaye into the group to reinvent their sound and style. something new and fresh. so maybe he was just looking for a reason to ditch cindy.

[sup_fan]

It’s hard to say since these stories get retold and revamped. But we do know when Mary and Cindy did the South American tour, she was still under contract as a Supreme

exactly this makes it all the more complex. Pedro had her removed from the group but that didn't mean motown had negotiated her release from her contract

[daviddh]

i do remember reading that Scherrie found out at the airport that Cindy was fired. Cindy wasnt there with them to fly home and apparently phoned Cindy to find out where she was , Cindy told her she had been fired.
not sure and i am racking my brain as to where i heard that, but i thought it came from either Cindy or Scherrie interview

[sup_fan]

Apparently this pic was taken at that last gig w Cindy

[BayouMotownMan]

It’s hard to say since these stories get retold and revamped. But we do know when Mary and Cindy did the South American tour, she was still under contract as a Supreme

The contract you are referring to was only valid in the USA. On that ill fated S. American trip, none of the ladies had a valid contract to perform there that is why Motown had some of the venues cancelled.

[BayouMotownMan]

Pedro and Mary had been plotting Cindy's dismissal for quite some time. Going into 1976, Pedro was excited about meeting and hearing Susaye Greene, who had worked with Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder. Despite her physical shortcomings, he presented her to Mary and the decision was made.

Someone posted Cindy's dismissal date as around Feb. 1, 1976. That sounds correct as the fan club announced it shortly thereafter.

Mary had asked Scherrie what she thought of Cindy being replaced the night before while in Canada. Scherrie was adamantly against it, saying the group had made a noticeable comeback with Cindy in the group and were being more and more accepted. Scherrie thought that ended the idea.

The next day while disembarking a flight at LAX Scherrie saw Pedro and Cindy talking on the tarmac but didn't think much of it. As Scherrie was at baggage pickup, Cindy met her there and told her that Pedro had just fired her. Scherrie was as stunned as Cindy.

For a while Scherrie thought of quitting as a result. Several LA fans met with her and convinced her to stay. The group was halfway through the High Energy sessions and Scherrie felt a little better when Pedro and Mary told her they would allow Cindy to complete the lp so as to get royalties.

It is highly unlikely that Cindy got much if anything.

The reason given to us fans for Cindy's leaving is that she wanted to spend more time with her son now that she was a single mom. None of us bought that really and when I later learned how this went down, I have to admit I had a hard time getting into Susaye. Then I had to realize that Su had nothing to do with the way this was all handled. She was offered a job and took it.

Initial reviews of the new group were overwhelmingly positive with Susaye being singled out for her solo on He Ain't Heavy. It wasn't too long however that the group became more shrill sounding and competitive onstage leading up to the Caesar's Palace and Madison Square disasters.

I think in hindsight Scherrie was right about letting Cindy stay.

[blackguy69]

I’ve always thought susaye was better suited for a solo career than a group. MSC had a better blend.

Pedro and Mary had been plotting Cindy's dismissal for quite some time. Going into 1976, Pedro was excited about meeting and hearing Susaye Greene, who had worked with Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder. Despite her physical shortcomings, he presented her to Mary and the decision was made.

Someone posted Cindy's dismissal date as around Feb. 1, 1976. That sounds correct as the fan club announced it shortly thereafter.

Mary had asked Scherrie what she thought of Cindy being replaced the night before while in Canada. Scherrie was adamantly against it, saying the group had made a noticeable comeback with Cindy in the group and were being more and more accepted. Scherrie thought that ended the idea.

The next day while disembarking a flight at LAX Scherrie saw Pedro and Cindy talking on the tarmac but didn't think much of it. As Scherrie was at baggage pickup, Cindy met her there and told her that Pedro had just fired her. Scherrie was as stunned as Cindy.

For a while Scherrie thought of quitting as a result. Several LA fans met with her and convinced her to stay. The group was halfway through the High Energy sessions and Scherrie felt a little better when Pedro and Mary told her they would allow Cindy to complete the lp so as to get royalties.

It is highly unlikely that Cindy got much if anything.

The reason given to us fans for Cindy's leaving is that she wanted to spend more time with her son now that she was a single mom. None of us bought that really and when I later learned how this went down, I have to admit I had a hard time getting into Susaye. Then I had to realize that Su had nothing to do with the way this was all handled. She was offered a job and took it.

Initial reviews of the new group were overwhelmingly positive with Susaye being singled out for her solo on He Ain't Heavy. It wasn't too long however that the group became more shrill sounding and competitive onstage leading up to the Caesar's Palace and Madison Square disasters.

I think in hindsight Scherrie was right about letting Cindy stay.

[sup_fan]

both the MSC and MSS lineups were excellent in the studios. the 3-part harmonies with MSC are stunning and very "traditional" supremes sounding [[and i mean that in a good way). the tunes Color My World, Can't Stop a Girl, Give Out are really very well sung, crafted, produced, etc. IMO they truly sound like 1975 version of The Supremes from 1965.

the MSS lineup is wildly impressive. but also very different. this wasn't an updated version of the 60s Sups. this was a totally new, modern and different Supremes. and it's a favorite of mine. it really was 3 equal partners [[at least on record). As lead singers, each woman had a unique and special sound. yet when they sang as a group and in 3-part harmony [[on record that is), it was surprisingly very well blended. their live performances though...

[Ollie9]

Mary mentioned in her book that Cindy appeared to be just going through the motions. Perhaps there was more to it than Cindy and Pedro just not liking each other.
Another question being, would Cindy have ever made into the group in the first place had there not been a rush to replace Flo at the time?. Just a thought.

[jim aka jtigre99]

I really loved both of the final versions of the group. MSC had beautiful harmony and style-perhaps the best since the original trio. I think Cindy at the time was dealing with a marriage that was ending, being a Mother of a toddler and not feeling the same about the group. There is one time on Soul Train where she seemed to be just staring ahead and not lip syncing or doing the choreography. Susaye was an amazing talent and the trio was like the original group with three distinct lead singers. Their work in the studio was amazing but their live performance was a free for all and I am not sure why they couldn't replicate the harmony from the studio to the stage. Still, When Scherrie and Susaye refused to go to South America Cindy went along, and Mary stated promoters were upset there were only 2 Supremes onstage. Cindy always blended beautifully with Mary both visually and vocally. It is a wonder what Motown really thought of Cindy. In fact, we don't really know what Motown thought of Mary, Scherrie and Susaye as well.

[sup_fan]

I really loved both of the final versions of the group. MSC had beautiful harmony and style-perhaps the best since the original trio. I think Cindy at the time was dealing with a marriage that was ending, being a Mother of a toddler and not feeling the same about the group. There is one time on Soul Train where she seemed to be just staring ahead and not lip syncing or doing the choreography. Susaye was an amazing talent and the trio was like the original group with three distinct lead singers. Their work in the studio was amazing but their live performance was a free for all and I am not sure why they couldn't replicate the harmony from the studio to the stage. Still, When Scherrie and Susaye refused to go to South America Cindy went along, and Mary stated promoters were upset there were only 2 Supremes onstage. Cindy always blended beautifully with Mary both visually and vocally. It is a wonder what Motown really thought of Cindy. In fact, we don't really know what Motown thought of Mary, Scherrie and Susaye as well.

IMO the issues with the MSS live shows are the following:

1. crazy amounts of choreography - they were doing SO much. if you look at the HE videos, they have intricate dance routines for the disco numbers. and when they were lip syncing, that's fine. but for a live show, they should have reduced this. they were just breathless at times

2. excessive 3-part harmonies and swapping of leads - this is a case of a little goes a long way. in too many songs they were doing non-stop 3 part and it just gets overwhelming to the audience. and they're forever trading off lead lines and sometimes for only a measure or two. this makes it too hard for the audience to follow who's doing what

3. out of control ad libs - another case of a little goes a long way. it's great that they had a sense of freedom with their singing. and of course they SHOULD show off their vocal talents. but they did too much and it was all over the place, on top of one another

4. poor song choice - as we've talked about many times, their live act repertoire was really not the best choice. too much MOR. this also isn't new to the MSS act but as i said earlier, the MSC grouping was very traditional supremes. so maybe that MOR junk worked a bit better. but with Susaye, it was a very different Supremes and they should have done more to modernize their approach to the stage